Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Question 82: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he has requested information from the Private Residential Tenancies Board seeking the details of landlords who have been prosecuted by the PRTB for their failure to register tenancies with the board or to comply with a determination order; if his Department pays rent supplement to landlords who have been prosecuted by the PRTB; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12180/08]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The supplementary welfare allowance scheme, which is administered on my behalf by the community welfare division of the Health Service Executive, provides for the payment of a rent supplement to assist eligible tenants who are unable to provide for their immediate accommodation needs from their own resources and who do not have accommodation available to them from any other source.

Under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, landlords are legally obliged to register tenancies with the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB. My Department supports the requirement that all tenancies, including those facilitated by rent supplement, should be registered with the PRTB and is committed to working closely with it in ensuring that all rent supplemented tenancies comply with the statutory system of tenancy regulation and safeguards. To that end, my Department provides details of rent supplement payments to the PRTB to enable it identify tenancies that are not registered and to take any follow-up action necessary.

The PRTB has advised that it has successfully prosecuted one landlord for failure to register tenancies with the board. Rent supplement was paid to one of that landlord's tenants and was not paid directly to the landlord in that case. Rent supplemented tenancies which are liable for registration with the PRTB should be registered. In that regard, I am satisfied that the arrangements I have outlined contribute to ensuring that landlords whose tenants receive rent supplement comply with this statutory obligation.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I said earlier that there appears to be a serious problem with regard to the exchange of information between the Department, the Revenue Commissioners and the PRTB. Does the Minister accept that is the case? A recent report from the Comptroller and Auditor General showed that communications systems were weak in that regard. What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that his Department's computer system is capable of picking up on this information and relaying it to the other two agencies? With regard to the PRTB, in how many cases has the Department discovered rent supplement was being paid to landlords who were not registered? The Minister has stated that one landlord was prosecuted, but in how many cases did the Department find that landlords in receipt of rent supplements were not registered with the PRTB as is required in law?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I have taken action since the issue was raised in the House some time ago. Discussions have taken place between the Department, the Revenue Commissioners and the PRTB to see how we can improve the existing system. The Department notifies the PRTB of all tenancies where rent supplement is paid by the Department. I do not have a figure for the total number but only have the figure I provided this afternoon. I will ask that and will provide the information to the Deputy.

My concern is for individual clients who need support from the State in obtaining accommodation here. People have often confused the issue and thought the Department's relationship was with landlords. It is not, it is with individual clients whom we support in finding the best accommodation available to them, and we will continue to do that. There have been some improvements and we would like further improvement with regard to how that information flow takes place.

I do not want the client or recipient of the social welfare payment to be wholly responsible for the tax affairs of a landlord. That would be unfair. There are some mechanisms in place to ensure tax compliance and that the standard of accommodation being sought and given is of a high quality. This involves not only the Department but also a number of other agencies, as indicated earlier, including local authorities. Since the issues have arisen, the Revenue Commissioners, the Department and the PRTB have been engaged in discussions to try to enhance and align their systems so as to have a better flow of information.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the fact the Minister is finally having discussions with the different groups involved. The Minister has said he does not want the individual client to suffer and I agree with him in that regard. However, the reality is that the individual clients do suffer because they do not get the best accommodation available. This is because we do not have a system in place that ensures the social welfare payment, the rent supplement and the fact that a landlord is registered are linked with the quality of the accommodation. Those three things do not link up but they should. The Minister is not willing to take responsibility for leading the change in respect of this. When is the Minister likely to conclude the discussion so we can ensure those three things are linked?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will take Deputy Shortall's question as well. I am trying to include one last question before the end.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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When we raised this issue with the Minister last month, he more or less washed his hands of it. He said that it had nothing to do with him and that he was responsible for rent supplement and answerable to the client. The Minister is paying out €420 million per year in rent supplement. The question of whether the landlords who received that rent are tax compliant should be a matter of concern to him. Given that he is responsible for that very substantial payout, it is not acceptable for him to say that it has nothing to do with him.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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That is exactly what he told us last month. He told us that he was not responsible for tax collection. I welcome the fact that he has seen the light and sees himself as having some responsibility in that area. Regardless of how late it has happened, now that the Department is participating in some discussions with Revenue and the PRTB, when does the Minister expect new agreements to be in place in terms of the protocols covering the transfer of information between those three agencies?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Two clear issues have come up through discussion. The first is that it is beginning to emerge that both the Labour Party and Fine Gael do not really want housing to be the responsibility of local government at all.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We want to see people in proper accommodation and people to pay their taxes.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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They obviously do not have any confidence that all of their councillors will fulfil their responsibilities at local level.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister, without interruption. Deputies should allow the Minister to reply.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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If it is proposed that the existing legislative basis for the responsibility for the quality and standard of housing stock in the country, which at the moment is the responsibility of local authorities, should be changed and if both parties are now saying that they do not have confidence in their own councillors to carry out those responsibilities, we will review the situation.

In respect of the second issue, I previously made it clear to Deputy Shortall that, in my view, it was not the case that recipients of social welfare payments or rent supplement should be responsible for the tax affairs of the local landlords or landlords anywhere in the country. That would be gravely wrong. It is certainly not the case that I have no particular view on the matter. Of course, I have a view on it but it is of vital importance that the other agencies who have direct legislative responsibility for many of these issues fulfil the responsibilities they have. My Department and its officials are quite willing to work with and enhance any of the arrangements that affect the customers of the Department of Social and Family Affairs in working with the Revenue Commissioners, the local authorities or the PRTB to ensure that we have the best system for our customers and the highest quality standard of accommodation in place and that the best value for money is being achieved for the money we give out on behalf of taxpayers in this country.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not happening.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will take a final supplementary question from Deputy Shortall.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Far from trying to put the responsibility on the client, I am asking the Minister whether he, the Minister who pays out €420 million annually in rent supplement, is prepared to accept his Department's responsibility in respect of ensuring that the landlords who receive that rent are tax compliant.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister will give his final reply.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I have told the Deputy on three occasions that my Department provides all the information to the PRTB and the Revenue Commissioners that it is legally allowed to provide and that there are mechanisms in place with the PRTB where we notify it about all new tenancies.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister involve local authorities?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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This triggers other mechanisms of information flow to the Revenue Commissioners as well. The Deputy is well aware of that. What I am not prepared to do is to make the individual social welfare recipient responsible for other people's tax affairs. It would be grossly wrong and unfair.