Dáil debates

Tuesday, 4 March 2008

Ceisteanna — Questions

Legislative Programme.

3:00 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the first half of 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3569/08]

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the remainder of the 30th Dáil; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1135/08]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for 2008 and the manner in which these priorities are identified; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4975/08]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.

The legislative priorities of the Government are set out in the legislative programme published on 29 January. My Department has one item of legislation on the C list, the Statute Law Revision Bill, the purpose of which is to review local and personal and private Acts enacted prior to 6 December 1922. While it is not possible to give a final estimate, it is hoped the heads of the Bill will be submitted to the Government in 2009.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept this may be slightly outside the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach but eight of the Bills were on the list for 2007, while nine are new. We have not enacted any legislation in this period. Why were nine of the 17 so-called priority Bills on the list of legislation for the autumn 2007 session not published and now reappear in the spring legislative programme? Is there a reason for this or is it that the Whip is being told by various Departments, and the authority that frames this legislation in the first place, that these things will come through although they do not? Of the original list of 17 Bills, nine of them were not published but they now appear on another list. What is the procedure involved and why was the Whip unable to provide accurate information when he published the list last September? In order to set a record in this session and pass some legislation, we may have to sit longer than was intended. The record in terms of productivity does not measure up that well as we enter into pay talks about productivity in many other areas.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since the Government took office on 14 June 2007, 12 Bills have been enacted. To date this year, six Bills have been published. Legislation is regularly listed as a priority in Departments but it can take longer from the time the heads of a Bill are agreed, to drafting and dealing with legal issues that inevitably arise. Some of the Bills go back to Departments a number of times when trying to finalise agreement. The senior parliamentary counsel can be occupied full-time on some of the major Bills. For example, every year the Finance Bill takes several months of work following the budget. It is four months from budget day to the date of completion of the Bill. The work of the parliamentary draftsman, together with amendments on Committee Stage, and Report and Final Stages take up so much time. The Immigration Residence and Protection Bill, for example, can tie someone up full-time for several months and therefore other Bills can lose out in the pecking order, although they are important to the relevant Departments. Another example is the broadcasting Bill, which will be coming through shortly. The preparatory work on that legislation has been long and detailed. As I said here two weeks ago, there is a range of legal issues surrounding the fair deal legislation, which has taken time. A small number of Bills therefore can take an enormous amount of the parliamentary draftsman's time, with the result that other Bills are delayed. Most of the Bills on the list, however, will come through over the next month or so.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, wanted to push the fair deal legislation through in the two days before the Christmas recess. We always had an understanding that rushed law can be bad law. Given that the Taoiseach commented on the fair deal legislation, is it likely to come before the House in this session or shortly after Easter? Do the legal problems concern property ownership or what is the big obstacle?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy recalls, we agreed at Christmas to consult the interested groups and the advice of the Attorney General was also sought. The Minister, Deputy Harney, is still dealing with that issue and hopes to bring forward the proposals after Easter. I have not been dealing with it directly but I know from conversations that it is possible to draft the Bill. There is no difficulty about the legality but there are enormously complex issues around it, which is what has taken the time. Having said that, a large amount of people are clamouring to get on with this but it will take a little bit more time.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I agree with Deputy Kenny that a very small amount of legislation is emerging from this Government in its post-general election manifestation. Among the Bills we know will be published is the referendum Bill to deal with the EU treaty. When are we likely to see this Bill? Has the Government set a date for the referendum? Can we now take it there will not be a Bill in 2008 dealing with a referendum on children's rights?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My questions are very much in the same vein as those of Deputy Gilmore. The first two questions he asked are straightforward. Will the Taoiseach clarify whether the referendum Bill on the Lisbon treaty will be published before Easter? Does he intend naming the date for the referendum this week? He must give a clear indication so that the debate can take place.

In regard to Deputy Gilmore's third question on the proposed constitutional amendment on children's rights, will the Taoiseach advise the House whether a final determination has been made to reject the idea of what was described as decoupling one particular area out of the broad raft of issues concerning children's rights? Is the Government determined to go ahead with a single constitutional referendum on children's rights? When does the Taoiseach envisage the Bill will be published? I am aware the deliberations on it are ongoing and that an extension of time has been sought by the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children, but will the Taoiseach give us some indication? Is he looking at the end of this year or will it be 2009 or, as indicated in previous responses here, given that it cannot now take place in tandem with the Lisbon treaty referendum, does he foresee it being held back even further?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On Deputy Gilmore's first question, the legislation will be published on Thursday. That will allow us to proceed in setting up the referendum commission and giving it the 90 days it asked for. The election will take place at the very end of May or into mid-June. We did not fix a date.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach planning an election?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to a referendum.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wanted the record to be clear.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin certainly would not want an election.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is full of surprises.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The election will take place in June 2012.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So the Taoiseach keeps saying.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin can rest easy.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have always stuck to my word.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's smile gets broader every time he says it.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the referendum on children's rights, it is clear that the committee's work will not be completed until later this year. The decision has been made that we will deal with it in one aspect, without decoupling the issues. In my view, it will be into 2009 before the referendum takes place. Even if the committee finishes its work in the autumn, to allow for discussions between the parties so that we can come to an agreement and have a successful referendum, it will be into 2009. I have spoken to some of the leaders of the various children's interests groups and they want it to be dealt with as one issue. They are willing to wait until 2009 but we certainly hope it does not go anything beyond that.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Many years ago, when the committee system was being discussed, the whole purpose of the exercise was to refer the heads of Bill to committees. That seems to have fallen by the wayside. It is an ideal means of having the general principle of legislation discussed and debated and teasing out possible difficulties at committee level and, thus, on an all-party basis. In many cases, there is little political difference between parties on certain types of legislation. Will the Taoiseach, who is a former Whip, consider the possibility of restoring the original idea of referring the heads of Bills to committees, in line with his overall desire to reform this Parliament?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy Barrett on this issue. We have been pressing this matter. There was a consultation process on the Internet before the House considered the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006. It was a good exercise. I have asked other Departments to do the same thing. Some Departments are very good. My own view is that it is a very good way of teasing out and debating the submissions at an early stage. Legislation which may seem uninteresting to us all in here will be of interest to groups outside the House and the political system. They can build up a head of steam. The best way to allow them to have an input is to publish the heads of the Bills.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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If committee debates on the heads of Bills are televised, special interest groups can see what is being discussed and make submissions in return.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. We have done that with a number of Bills over the past few years. Some Departments seem a little reluctant to engage in this process. I have been pressing for more Departments to do it. It was of great assistance in the case of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006. There was a broad process of consultation not just within the Oireachtas, but also within the interested groups. It will improve the legislation that comes before the House. There will probably be far fewer issues than there would be if Bills were not considered in this way.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should take up this suggestion.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not doubt that when the next Dáil session commences, some of the Bills which are currently on section A of the legislative list will still be on section A of the list. Deputies asked in the House about the status of the Charities Bill 2007 on numerous occasions before it was finally considered and passed. We were told that the delay in that instance was caused by problems in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. How many draftspeople in that office are putting Bills together at present?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have previously given a detailed account of the number of parliamentary draftspeople. There are issues relating to the main Bills of the year, such as the finance and social welfare Bills, and other key Bills like referendum and immigration Bills. Such legislation ties up parliamentary draftspeople for a considerable number of months each year. When such Bills are given priority, other Bills are put on the back burner. While each year's social welfare Bill may not be complex, other Bills can take up a substantial amount of time. Each year's finance Bill can tie up senior draftspeople for the best part of four months, which is a significant portion of the year. The drafting of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008 also took a long time.

Delays are not always caused by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel — legislation can be held up by discussions within and between Departments on various issues. All of that has to be agreed before the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel can start to draft a Bill. When compared to other Parliaments, the Oireachtas passes a large number of Bills each year. The point was made earlier that we need to be more concerned about the quality of legislation rather than the number of Bills which are drawn up.