Dáil debates
Wednesday, 6 February 2008
Order of Business
10:30 am
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 10a, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; and No. 2, Finance Bill 2008 — Second Stage (resumed).
It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted on the conclusion of Private Members' business, which shall be No. 29, motion re health services (resumed) and which shall be taken for 90 minutes at 7 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 2, whichever is the later; (2) No. 10a shall be decided without debate; and (3) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 2 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tonight.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 10a, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions, without debate agreed?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I recognise that on occasion there is a requirement for a Minister to attend abroad on international business or otherwise. This may well require that while the Minister attends, a Deputy fills in for him or her at Question Time. However, it appears quite a number of claims for rotation of parliamentary questions are being made. This is only a six-week session. While I understand this issue may arise on occasion, I ask the Chief Whip if it is possible to have some sense of stability in this regard.
I am not objecting to the arrangement. For our part, we understand there must be some flexibility. However, I would not like a situation where every week it appears that some Minister of the Government parties wants to swap questions, which means that Opposition spokespersons must make arrangements to comply or be faced with dealing with Ministers of State. In planning ahead on these matters, and as this is only a six or seven-week session, it should not be necessary to have a question every week regarding approval for rotation of parliamentary questions.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I also want to put down a marker in this regard. The proposal before us today is the third change in the ministerial rota for parliamentary questions since we came back last week. This used to be a very rare occasion and it was something the Opposition parties and spokespersons were quite happy to accommodate. If a Minister is away on important official business on behalf of the country, that would be accommodated. However, it is becoming part of a pattern whereby Ministers want to be anywhere except in the House. It is going on all the time. Ministerial questions are changed and important debates take place in the House while the relevant Minister is abroad. Rarely now does a Minister come to the House to take the Adjournment debate for which they have direct responsibility.
This is not something we can continue to allow. The sitting year is a short one. Ministers should be able, by and large, to organise their diaries and visits abroad or business of that kind in such a way that they are present in the House to deal with business and account to the House. Within that framework, we can accommodate the odd occasion when something major arises that requires a Minister to be abroad.
I give notice that this is not something we will allow to go without debate in future if the pattern continues. Labour party spokespersons marking the different Ministers will not as readily agree to these arrangements as heretofore.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Three in a week sounds excessive. I will not argue against that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This motion concerns the Minister, Deputy Mary Coughlan, who will attend the Agriculture Council meeting on the issue raised earlier by Deputy Sheehan, namely, the WTO talks. In a normal case, nobody would argue against this. I will raise the issue with Ministers, who should try to avoid this problem arising. For my part, I try hard not to miss the days I should be here. Ministers should not do so either.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is not here too often either.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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More than anyone in Europe.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Two days a week.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for No. 2, Second Stage of the Finance Bill 2008, agreed to? Agreed. I call Deputy Kenny on the Order of Business.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask the Taoiseach three questions. I see reports of threats concerning the so-called Real IRA. Is the Government aware of these and is the Taoiseach taking action under the appropriate legislation to deal with any consequences that may arise?
No. 43 on the list, the education (patronage) Bill, is an important development in the future governance and management of the country's schools. When will it be published?
No. 68 on the list, the criminal justice (cybercrime and attacks against information systems) Bill is quite technical and difficult to comprehend. It covers a complex area but the country should be vigilant in guarding against such matters. Is there any reason to believe that legislation can be published earlier than the indefinite period mentioned by the Taoiseach?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The education (patronage) Bill is listed for publication later on this year. The criminal justice (cybercrime and attacks against information systems) Bill seeks to transpose the EU framework decision on attacks against information systems, but the heads of the Bill are currently only in draft form.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is down the line. On the other issue raised by the Deputy, one must always watch the security position but I am not being given any more than the normal caution. As the Deputy knows, there is a dedicated group of very dangerous people who do not desist, but there is nothing new I think.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish to raise two matters. First, I understand that the Taoiseach is going to Manchester on Saturday——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——where he intends to meet with Prime Minister Brown.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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He will bring a packed lunch.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish him well in that endeavour. I also wish to identify with the event commemorating the Munich air disaster that the Taoiseach intends to attend. However, given the extent to which Manchester has been an occasion of temptation for the Taoiseach in the past, and given the day that is in it, may I suggest a few Lenten pledges that he might take? He should stay away from the Four Seasons Hotel, avoid giving impromptu talks on the economy and not take anything from anybody he does not know.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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And do not get on any strange buses.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have previously referred to the nursing homes Bill, which is to deal with the payment of nursing charges, in the context of consultations with organisations representing the elderly. Have legal or constitutional issues now arisen in respect of that promised legislation? In particular, has the proposal to attach a charge to the estate of a deceased person raised constitutional difficulties in the context of Article 43.1.2° of the Constitution which states:
The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.
If a constitutional issue has arisen in respect of that Article, what is the Government's advice on the matter?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A number of issues arose from the discussions on this legislation last year. I am not sure if they were constitutional issues but my understanding is that they were certainly complex legal issues. The Attorney General advised us at Christmas time that he was satisfied those issues had been resolved.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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When can we expect publication of the national monuments Bill? I hope it will remove the grey area concerning the utilisation of a national inventory of heritage sites, which is, it seems, being ignored by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. This is resulting in our most important archaeological sites not attaining world heritage status.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last autumn, the Minister launched a major review of archaeological practice and policy with a number of seminars. It is intended that the recommendations arising from this review will be brought forward in legislative proposals to be put to the Government. We are, therefore, awaiting the outcome of that review.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Primary school managers have effectively by-passed the Minister for Education and Science in writing to the Taoiseach to seek a meeting to discuss the funding crisis in our schools. Does the Taoiseach intend to accede to this unprecedented request by all primary school managers?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's question is not in order.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The House needs to know the answer to this question.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It does not matter if the question is not in order.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is totally unprecedented that the Minister for Education and Science is effectively put to one side and the leader of the Government has been asked to adjudicate on the matter.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's point is not in order.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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In answer to Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach said that the education (patronage) Bill will be published later this year. My understanding is that the two schools in question intend to open by September 2008. Is the Taoiseach telling the House that the legislative basis for these new schools will postdate their establishment?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am told that the legislation will be published late this year.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I was feeling a bit neglected because I had not heard from you in a long time, a Cheann Comhairle, but I was reassured yesterday morning when you wrote to me six times.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is not St. Valentine's Day yet.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In fact, there were signs of genuine regret in that each letter was prefaced with the words "I regret". I can understand the genuine regret in the tone of the letters, which referred to parliamentary questions. Previously, such questions were answered by Ministers in this House. The questions refer specifically to the Minister for Transport. One concerned a train that went to Limerick with one passenger on board and which obviously had no communications system to make contact with the driver. Another of my questions concerned long delays in rail services. The reply stated that "the Minister has no official responsibility to Dáil Éireann for these matters, which are ones for Iarnród Éireann".
I remind the Minister that when tragic accidents occurred in the transport sector over the last couple of years, the Minister for Transport was the person who attended this House to deal with those unfortunate matters. I reject the practice that is now creeping in to our procedures whereby Ministers duck, bob and weave in order to escape answering questions, for which the Ceann Comhairle knows full well they are responsible. I want to put it on record that this will no longer be tolerated. If this ministerial contempt for the Opposition continues, by avoiding parliamentary questions, then other means will have to be found to deal with it.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I support what has just been said. When Deputy Mary O'Rourke was a Minister she would answer questions regardless of whether they referred to quangos.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Therefore, the Minister can answer questions, which is the point. The Ceann Comhairle's proposals for Dáil reform were supposed to deal with this particular issue. I would like to see them brought forward quickly because there is a range of issues which we cannot ask questions about, although we could do so previously. In the absence of Deputy Mary O'Rourke we cannot ask the questions.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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When can we expect publication of the twenty-eighth amendment of the Constitution (reform treaty) Bill, which provides for the ratification process of the latest European Union treaty? Will the Taoiseach give us a definitive title for that treaty? The Government is calling it the reform treaty while the media calls it the Lisbon treaty. There is already a Lisbon strategy and a Lisbon Agenda, and now we have a Lisbon treaty. There is a considerable amount of confusion about the issue. I suggest the appropriate title should be the Lisbon reform treaty. It was developed as a reform treaty and signed in Lisbon, so effectively that is the correct title. Perhaps that title could be agreed in the context of the proposed legislation, in consultation with the National Forum on Europe and the Committee on European Affairs. There could be an agreed title for the legislation because it is causing confusion in the debate on the treaty.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The legislation is being prepared and we are hoping it will be brought to Government the week after next. I will raise the point made by the Deputy with the Department of Foreign Affairs.
12:00 pm
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I refer to the national monuments Bill, which was listed in the legislative programme for the autumn session with a publication date of 2008 but which has been rescheduled for publication in 2009 according to the programme for the spring session. Ireland has been referred to the European Court of Justice for its failure to introduce this legislation, which will ensure environmental impact assessments are carried out on monuments such as that at Lismullen. Why has the legislation been put on the long finger, particularly given the Green Party attached such a priority to it before the election last year?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government launched a major review of archaeological practice and policy a few months ago. A number of seminars have been held and some reports and suggestions made. It is intended the recommendations arising from those submissions will be brought forward in legislative proposals to be put to the Government. That has to be done and the heads of the legislation must be prepared so it will be 2009 before we see the Bill.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I refer to two issues. When the Taoiseach meets the Prime Minister Gordon Brown at the end of the week, I wonder whether he will raise with him the refusal of the British ambassador to Ireland to engage in normal industrial relations practices by declining an invitation to the Labour Relations Commission regarding a dispute. In the context of the Good Friday Agreement such participation by an employer would be reasonable, good neighbourly behaviour.
Second, I welcome the Student Support Bill, which was published yesterday. Will the Chief Whip ensure the normal convention of a two-week period of reflection takes place before Second Stage commences?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the Chief Whip to arrange that.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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What about the other matter?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The other matter is not in order.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It is very important to the people affected by it.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the issue raised by my colleague, Deputy Durkan. Every day the Ceann Comhairle's office issues a sackful of letters to Members, three of which landed on my desk earlier from the Ministers for Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Transport indicating a total abdication of responsibility on their part. I seek the Ceann Comhairle's guidance. Where can we obtain the information if it is not forthcoming from the Minister in charge, especially having regard to the time honoured tradition of Minister's questions? For example, I asked about the number of people who have received custodial sentences for failure to pay a civil debt; the steps the Minister for Transport will take to relieve waiting lists for driving tests in Portlaoise, a perfectly justifiable and reasonable question for a Deputy to ask; the number of special exemption orders granted by the courts to publications; the number of persons serving life imprisonment; and the average terms of custody for those serving a life sentence. I do not know nor have I way of finding out. Will the Ceann Comhairle's office consider contacting the quangos that have been given responsibility for dealing with these issues? Rather than sending letters directly to Deputies, a system might be set in train to allow for the reply to be forthcoming if the relevant Minister is not prepared to come into the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I empathise with the Deputy and others who have raised this issue. I have sought through my office to facilitate discussions on the entire situation. The Chair is governed obviously by Standing Orders and by statutory provisions regarding these matters. However, I have decided that we will seek to have a further meeting next week to see if my office can facilitate reform in this area and I hope we make some progress. Beyond that, I cannot put this.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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With respect, this is not about reform. It is about the basic right of a Deputy, which has been the case since the founding of this Assembly where year after year the strictures employed are being neglected and cast aside in favour of non-information at best and, at worst, the muzzling of Deputies.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Unfortunately, I cannot put it any further than I have.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Will the Ceann Comhairle liaise with the office of the Taoiseach? Perhaps the Taoiseach will engage in finding a formula that would allow a Deputy on behalf of his or her constituents to raise a justifiable question.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The point is well made.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The final report of the casino group is before Cabinet. Have deliberations concluded? Can we expect legislation to regulate the casino industry?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, but a report is being prepared and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will bring forward proposals to deal with that in the next few weeks.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Like the Taoiseach, I am a Manchester United fan and I hope the club has a very successful weekend marking a tragic anniversary in its famous history. It has had a close involvement with this country.
Could we debate the latest Road Collision Factbook, which was published recently, given that the Minister for Transport was totally at sea in the House yesterday regarding the recent carnage on the roads? The chairperson of the Road Safety Authority, Mr. Gay Byrne, has threatened to resign if the Government does not take action on speeding by deploying speed cameras and so on. This looks like becoming another fiasco involving Deputy Noel Dempsey following the e-voting issue and others.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach prepared to take a hands on approach to road safety and put his hands on the steering wheel, given that after eight months, the Minister for Transport has not dealt with this horrendous problem?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach would have to do the test again if he wanted to put his hands on the steering wheel.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy asked for a debate.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Can we have a debate?
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Government has promised the electricity regulation (EirGrid) (amendment) Bill during this session, which will facilitate EirGrid to build as well as own its first asset, an east-west electricity interconnector between Ireland and Britain. That raises concerns about the electricity (transfer of transmission assets) Bill, which was repeatedly been promised for 2008 by the Government and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Section C of the Government's legislative programme states it is not possible to indicate a publication date for the Bill. Does this reflect a change in Government policy on structural separation between the ESB and EirGrid?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The electricity (transfer of transmission assets) Bill is listed as promised legislation but I have no date for it.