Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to raise a matter that probably concerns every person in the country, given that most people come into contact with the legal profession, in particular solicitors, at some stage during their lives. As the Taoiseach knows, a number of high profile cases are proceeding through the courts. What concerns me is that the credibility of the profession has been diminished by the activities arising from these circumstances. Obviously, at the end of the day, consumers will have to pick up the tab, either through higher solicitors' fees or higher bank charges.

One of the features of concern to me is that the information on some of these cases was brought to the attention of the Law Society as long ago as 2002. In that context, the matter of self-regulation is called into question. I note that the vast majority of practising solicitors I have encountered have done their job as per the requirements of the profession and in an absolutely above-board manner. However, cases where clients' money has been called into question, which is a no-go area for practising solicitors, do down the profession.

Is the Taoiseach satisfied self-regulation is working in the way it should? Will he comment on the report of the Competition Authority, which the Government has had since last December, which recommended that there should be an independent legal services commission to take over the day-to-day regulation of the legal services while leaving the Law Society to represent the profession? This is a matter of genuine concern to many people who do not understand the intricacies of the law or the details with which solicitors must deal. Is the Taoiseach satisfied with self-regulation, which clearly has not worked to the extent it should? Does the Government intend to follow through on the Competition Authority report and implement an independent legal commission to run the services of the legal profession?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy raised a number of points. I agree the vast majority of practices in the State work well, do not create difficulty and provide a service to individual members of the public and to companies. Self-regulatory bodies the world over, including in this country, tend to move away from this and the idea of self-regulation is seen as something from other times. Most organisations are changing their ways in that regard.

I do not dispute the fact that some of the individuals who are now the source of investigations were investigated a number of years ago and got a clean bill of health. While I am subject to correction, one of those investigations took place as recently as five years ago.

The Competition Authority has considered the profession, which was dealt with in one of the five reports carried out by the authority. That report does not deal with self-regulation but more with issues of competition, numbers and the scale and form of companies, which is not the same area. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is examining this area and what has happened.

The position of other professional bodies is relevant. A number of years ago, the accountancy profession moved to a different administrative system whereby a body was established to examine the profession, and that is working well. While I do not want to suggest the Government has made a decision, because we have not and the matter is under examination, the accountancy profession is an area in which such a system has worked very satisfactorily.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is considering not only recent cases but also the issue of self-regulation.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Independent commissions of the type recommended by the Competition Authority already work very well in Northern Ireland, England, Wales, Australia and New Zealand, and seem to enhance the reputation and credibility of the profession. Does the Government accept the Competition Authority report in respect of the provision of an independent legal commission to run the profession?

We have had reports on the implementation of regulators and regulations that were supposed to benefit the consumer. Despite having regulators, this clearly has not worked to the extent it should in the transport area, and we have the highest electricity costs of many countries and are way behind on broadband.

Arising from the Taoiseach's response, has the Government considered the Competition Authority's report? Does the Government accept the recommendation for the appointment of an independent legal commission to take over those duties? I pose the question in the context that everybody has to deal with their legal representatives at some stage in their lives and the regulations should be clearly understood by all consumers. While the vast majority of practising solicitors do their job as they should, the situation should be watertight and above board. Does the Taoiseach accept the Competition Authority's report? Does he agree with the recommendation concerning an independent legal commission and, if so, when will the Government act on it?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The answer to those questions is yes. The Government has examined the Competition Authority's report. The authority has produced a number of reports and it reported to the House on this matter two or three weeks ago. That may not be the only model that can be taken, but the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is examining it. I am not satisfied that self-regulation, as it has been operated over the years, is the best model. We must come to a view of how best to do that. Total self-regulation does not provide the impression that the public interest is best served in a transparent way, notwithstanding the fact that the overwhelming majority are doing a good job, as the Deputy said.

There are other models including, for example, the Accounting Standards Association which supervises accountants and is regulated by law. There is a lay majority on that body which works well on a professional and an individual level. It was recently established by law. There is not a huge difference between the accountancy and the legal professions. It was thought necessary to establish such a body for the accountancy sector and that model is working. Increasingly, both of those professions work closely together. The Deputy has seen what is happening in the IFSC and the related legal practices. That is a model therefore that the legal profession should consider. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is examining the position, however. Generally speaking, self-regulation is not now seen as a great idea internationally. Someone would have to work hard to convince me that self-regulation works, because that is not the case. In all its reports, the Competition Authority indicated that the concept of self-regulation is not the way of the future.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This morning we heard of a threatened strike in the ESB, with the possibility of power cuts. We also heard of another possible strike in the Irish Prison Service. Last week people walked to work because of a strike in Dublin Bus and a strike in Aer Lingus was narrowly averted for the second time in recent weeks. In the past couple of weeks, there seems to have been a deteriorating industrial relations climate, which was the kind of thing we thought social partnership was designed to avoid, including the strikes and disputes threatened in major public utility companies.

I am particularly concerned about the threatened strike in the ESB which, if it comes about and results in power cuts, will cause much hardship for householders and businesses, particularly if it occurs during the winter period. In any event, the threat of a strike in the ESB must have enormous economic consequences, creating a degree of uncertainty and unease. Normally, in the case of such a strike we would all be calling on unions and management to get together and resolve their differences. The unusual aspect of this threatened strike is that it is not a dispute in the traditional sense between unions and management. Indeed, unions and management in Aer Lingus seem to have the same view on the issue. The issue at the ESB, however, appears to be the Government's plans for the future of the company. In those circumstances, does the Taoiseach or the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources have plans to meet the ESB's management and unions with a view to resolving this issue and averting a strike, thus preventing the power cuts that would result if a strike occurs?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We discussed industrial relations issues last week in Aer Lingus and Dublin Bus and at that stage I called on workers and management to try to resolve the issues, notwithstanding the fact that in CIE's case the matter had gone through the conciliation process, the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. Every dispute has its own unique position and those involved should try to resolve the issues. I would say the same concerning the ESB. I acknowledge the significant effort put in by unions and management to resolve both disputes to which the Deputy referred. We are maintaining a record of a low level of industrial relations disputes, which is one of the lowest by international standards.

Yesterday, the ESB group of unions received a broad mandate for industrial action in the event of ESB management breaching the terms of the bilateral and tripartite agreements, which form the basis of the terms and conditions of their members and include the organisation's structural arrangements within the ESB. A counting of ballots issued by the constituent unions to their members concluded that the members had voted by nine to one in favour of industrial action. I understand that result must be ratified by the executive members of the unions in advance of their group of union meetings on 29 November. Following that, the unions will request a meeting with ESB management. That is the process that is set out over the next few weeks.

As Deputy Gilmore stated, there are two issues involved that might be impacted upon by this development. The first is the ESB assets strategy which provides for the closure and disinvestment of 1,500 MW of ESB power generation plant as a way of dealing with the ESB's dominance. The second issue is the proposed transfer of the ESB's transmission assets to Eirgrid by the end of next year. That is seen as a key step in securing the competitiveness of the Irish electricity sector. We have gone from a position of having low ESB costs a decade ago to very high. The examination of why that has happened has continued and is reflected in the energy White Paper. Part of it is the issue of dominance and how things are done. Energy issues affect the public so we must get cheaper, effective and efficient energy from electricity companies. The issue is hugely important for the future competitiveness of the economy.

Both of these issues are the subject of commitments contained in the programme for Government. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, has made himself available to discuss these matters with the group of unions and has met them. He has also discussed them with ESB management. There are, however, fundamental questions about the future of electricity in this country and the price we pay for it. It is also about the future of the ESB which is a well structured company with good pay levels. The Government wants to see it thus, but there are issues that must be dealt with, including competition, dominance and the competitiveness of the overall economy. Those are important issues and the Government is willing and anxious to deal with them, as the Minister has made clear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As the Taoiseach said, it is probably early days in this dispute but most people who are concerned about their electric supply probably are not that concerned about the nuts and bolts of the issues in dispute. They want to be sure they will have a continued supply of electricity. Does the Taoiseach agree that those who are seeking security of supply will look to the Government, given that the dispute is about Government policy, not traditional industrial relations issues about pay or conditions of employment, to ensure the necessary steps are taken to avoid a dispute? Does he consider the deteriorating industrial relations climate is not unrelated to a perception that the Government is feathering its own nest with the pay increases it awarded itself in recent times and that the timing of the recent spate of disputes which are more frequent than we have experienced in recent years is not unconnected to the public's perception that the Government has been looking after itself?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Close liaison is being maintained with ESB management and contacts are ongoing within union circles. The Government will bring forward a memorandum on the various aspects of the transfer of the transmission assets. The legislation and financial arrangements will also be presented to the Government in the coming months. The Minister and the Department will continue to liaise on the matter with all the relevant parties. The Minister met the group of unions and will continue to liaise with ESB management and the CER. The claim that the transfer of transmission assets will weaken the ESB commercially is not factual. The transfer of assets will be accompanied by the transfer of liabilities and entail the movement of a small number of staff, which will help the ESB.

In some ways I wish the Deputy was right about the recent disputes. Unfortunately, some of them are so like long playing records that they would not work on the modern technology. The bus dispute has been ongoing for ages; the ESB dispute has been ongoing for several years, while, as the Deputy said, the Aer Lingus dispute has played out three or four times. The rule the trade union movement fought for in 1913 and has stood by since, as the Deputy will be aware, is that when an independent body makes a decision on an increase, the Government of the day should pay it.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Take the money and run.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Tell that to Willie.