Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Two minutes remain to Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I repeat that the community child care subvention scheme is fundamentally flawed. As I stated last evening, we should be moving towards the universal provision of preschool child care. The mooted scheme moves us in the opposite direction towards a two-tier structure that mirrors our grossly inequitable two-tier health service. We in Sinn Féin have set out our vision of how the State should address the vitally important issue of child care. We believe the Government should work to achieve a set of goals within a definite timeframe. The goals include supporting the provision of the best care for all children; enabling all parents to reconcile their child care needs with participation in the labour force, education and training; enabling all parents to exercise their choice of care for their children full-time up to one year of age; enabling all parents to access affordable child care for their children; establishing universal State provision of preschool for all children from the age of three to five years; and establishing a universal provision of early childhood care and education based on the best international models.

In the interim, Sinn Féin has called on the Government to introduce a range of measures that include the harmonisation of maternity leave on an all-Ireland basis by increasing maternity leave from the current 26 weeks paid leave and extending unpaid maternity leave to 26 weeks.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy's two minutes have expired.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin also advocates the introduction of paid paternity leave and payment in respect of parental leave. Sinn Féin fully supports the Opposition motion and urges the Government to think again, to listen to child care workers and parents and to return to the drawing board and design a scheme that is worthy of Members' consideration and of the important need they seek to address.

Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Ciarán Lynch and Sherlock.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate. Like my colleagues, many of my constituents have been in touch with me to express great concern regarding the Government's proposals and the new arrangements that are supposed to benefit parents who are in need of child care facilities. While one would have hoped that any new Government amendments to the current system would prove beneficial to parents, unfortunately the opposite is the case. The new proposals will have several serious disadvantages for parents who have been able until now to avail of a reasonably-priced child care service.

The acquisition of affordable quality child care remains one of the principal challenges facing all parents and young and first-time parents in particular. The proposed amendments to the current system will certainly lead to many parents being forced to give up work or being driven away from opportunities to return to education. The only parents who will be eligible for subvention assistance under the new Government proposal will be those in receipt of social welfare or family income supplement payments.

For such parents, especially single parents and those on low incomes, the new system will act as an incentive to go back on social welfare, thus creating a new poverty trap for them. The removal of access to affordable child care for such parents is a retrograde step designed only to create an environment in which those who endeavour to improve their lot are penalised and may find themselves back in the revolving door of the social welfare system. This benefits no one: not the parents, the children, the community nor the State. Moreover, there is no provision in the new system for access to subventions for grandparents, for example, who have their grandchildren in child care and early leaning facilities. Frequently, such children come from very difficult backgrounds and early intervention and positive child care is an absolute necessity to provide them with a decent opportunity.

Another problem has been highlighted by many of those who have spoken to me on this issue, namely, the segregation of children. The only children who will be entitled to avail of community crèche facilities will be those whose parents are in receipt of social welfare benefits. As other parents will be required to pay, it not unreasonable to assume they will move their children to private child care facilities. Once again, the net result will be the creation of a two-tier system. Only those in receipt of social welfare payments will be forced to send their children to community child care facilities, while other parents will avail of private child care facilities and the social mix that is so important for childhood development simply will be removed from the system.

Rather than cutting out those who most need support, the Minister should examine the services and facilities that are available at present and ensure they are workable and are allowed to work. What is the logic behind providing a state-of-the-art child care facility and then failing to provide the funding to run it? This is precisely what has happened in one child care facility I visited in Ballyfermot. The Star is a superb facility for which wonderful people are ready to work. While its opening ceremony was conducted with much aplomb, it appears that its only purpose was as a photo opportunity for a Minister.

The consequences of the new proposal will include segregation, isolation, exclusion, poverty traps, the loss of jobs because community child care facilities will not be able to fund the staffing required and damage to the early learning of children.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on an issue that is of increasing concern. I also acknowledge the contacts and correspondence that I have received from community child care groups from throughout the southern region. The proposed restructuring of the community child care provision will result in a radical change of the existing scheme. An independent examination shows that additional charges will be placed on parents, additional operational costs for community child care providers must be recouped locally and a reduction in services and possible closure of some child care facilities will arise from this measure. Furthermore, it will reduce the social flexibility and mobility that is built into the service at present and which I consider one of its key aspects. Were this to be lost, it would undermine completely the concept of community child care in the broad conception of what constitutes a community. It will also make it practically impossible to maintain those standards that have been developed in recent years and the proposal deliberately sets out to undermine them.

The irony in this regard is that the funding that has been made available at both national and European level has facilitated the emergence from the Dark Ages of child care in Ireland. Child care facilities in the communities are now in a no-win situation whereby they will become victims of their success due to the social mobility fostered within them. The Government's proposals contain two fundamental flaws, which are also mirrored in its amendment before the House. If one examines the operation of community child care, the biggest group is the mid-tier group, which is being removed. Had the sector been examined properly, it would have been discerned that most service providers are now included within the tier that will be penalised. Second, although the Government claims it is investing €153 million in the sector, that sum is mere pie in the sky. As one must be in the classification one category to draw down the aforementioned €153 million under the new funding structure, that sum is a nonsense.

The Government would have been better off had it left the system as it was and simply invested a few pounds more. The system was not broken but required improvement. In effect, the Government proposes to create what local providers are calling a ghettoisation of the service. It will drive out working parents on low incomes who will be penalised by no longer being able to avail of community child care in their localities. I commend those in this sector who are conducting this campaign. The measure of its success is demonstrated by the manner in which the Government is becoming watery on the issue. This will be reflected in the Chamber tonight by the number of Fianna Fáil Members who will perform a Pontius Pilate act on the Minister on this issue.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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If the Government's proposals succeed, there will be dire consequences for the provision of not-for-profit child care and the significant contribution made by this sector to our communities will be rolled back. Any changes to the subvention structure under the national child care investment programme that result in a reduction in staffing levels will mean a reduction in funds available to pay staff in many community-based child care centres. This possibility contradicts the commitment in the national development plan to provide an additional 28,000 child care places and 8,000 jobs in child care. It could be argued that this subvention is being introduced in reverse. That is to say, the highest rate of subvention is being suggested for parents who are in receipt of full social welfare. If a parent stops receiving social welfare and takes up employment that parent's subvention for child care is reduced. This reduces the incentive to take up employment.

The Government, through its actions, is contradicting its own stated policy. At present, community child care facilities serve a mix of families reflective of the local community. If this subvention scheme is implemented according to the current proposals, community child care facilities may be seen as centres at which only the children of social welfare recipients are facilitated. This is contrary to any social inclusion remit. How will working families on marginal incomes who are not entitled to any form of State support have access to affordable child care? Community child care facilities which have been in receipt of staffing grants since 2002 will now be obliged to consider increasing their fees as a result of these measures. Where is the commitment to quality child care centres and to the benefits of early childhood education and socialisation? Where is the commitment to the volunteers all over the country who have given of their time, and are still doing so, to find sites, apply for funding, fill in forms, set up services and become employers? I call on the Government to rethink its proposals and let common sense prevail.

Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Dooley, Curran, McDaid, Flynn, Fitzpatrick, Scanlon, Moynihan and White.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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How many minutes do we each have?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Three minutes each.

Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the amendment to the motion. We have made huge progress in the provision of child care facilities over the past few years. I wish to place on record my recognition of the necessary role played by the many community and private providers of child care. Both have a significant role to play. It is important to note that 80% of child care services do not receive any subvention. Under the EOCP, targeted support was provided through the staffing support grant scheme whereby community-based not-for-profit child care providers with a strong focus on disadvantage were awarded grant aid towards their staffing costs to allow them to offer reduced rates to disadvantaged parents.

Nobody in this House would disagree that we must seek to tackle disadvantage in all aspects of life. I am proud of the efforts made by this Government in tackling disadvantage, particularly in the area of child care. It has facilitated many women who wish to return to the workplace while at the same time providing a valuable learning and social environment for children, who must always come first. Over the last few weeks there has been much misinformation and political point-scoring in this area and it is important that factual information is given to the public. The EOCP ends next month and the community child care subvention scheme is being introduced from January. This will continue to support community child care services to enable them to provide affordable child care to disadvantaged parents.

Contrary to Opposition claims, the scheme has an allocation of €153 million, an increase of 16%, which is ring-fenced over the next three years. That is a clear signal from the Government that we are not going to walk away from our commitment to child care. The Minister introduced a transitional period until July 2008 so that this Department can analyse the information received from service providers. There is a need for this data in order to ensure openness and transparency in the delivery of the scheme. From the outset, the Minister clearly stated he would analyse the data and take into consideration any emerging issues so the scheme would be implemented in such a way as to ensure the optimum outcome for parents and children who avail of community child care facilities. That commitment is clear and unambiguous.

There are many excellently run community child care facilities throughout the length and breadth of the country. Many have always operated on a tiered fee structure, which was the intention from the beginning of the EOCP. However, some have not, and this poses a problem. I argue that it is unfair to apply a fee structure which causes disadvantaged families to pay a similar amount to those whose parents are in full-time employment. These anomalies must be addressed. I look forward to the community child care subvention scheme continuing to support community child care services while targeting disadvantage. I am happy to support the amendment.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and I am delighted to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. As a number of speakers have said, there is a considerable amount of concern among parents and community groups. Much of it is based on misinformation. Something can be done about this, and I know the Minister of State has been endeavouring to communicate as best he can, although it may not be possible with some elements of the media. However, I have no doubt that this debate will add to the information available.

As Deputy Conlon pointed out, it is important to recognise the tremendous amount of work that has been done. When I was first elected to the Seanad five years ago child care was a big issue, mainly because there was such a limited amount of space for children. Locations were not available and the facilities were not in place. Thankfully, we have started to address this and have gone a long way towards providing places in both the private and the public and community sector. The facilities are of a very high quality and are managed well. I have met with a number of providers in my county over the past five years and they have done a great job in bringing together communities and putting in place the services that are required. The work they have done is a credit to them and their communities. However, there is some concern, which is based on misinformation, and we need to address this.

Whenever an effort is made to change a system, an element of fear is engendered, which is all the greater when it relates to one's financial position. That is where most of the concerns are coming from. The biggest concern is that of low-income families. I was heartened to read the Minister of State's statement to the Seanad in which he sought to address the concerns of people who are on low incomes but, because they are not receiving family income supplement or other welfare payments, will be hit for every charge. Because of their financial circumstances there is a real concern that an increase in charges will make it impossible for them to remain in the workplace. It would be helpful if the Minister of State could review the scheme taking this into account. I note that in the Minister of State's original statement in which he announced the proposed changes, he stated he would analyse the information remitted to his Department from the various schemes around that country and make further changes based on this. That would be very welcome.

My final point concerns the VAT regime associated with private child care facilities, although this is probably an issue for the Department of Finance. It would help to reduce the cost to parents if we moved from a VAT-exempt to a zero-VAT system. If the VAT status was changed in this way the capital expenditure and input could be reclaimed by the promoter of the scheme, which would reduce costs.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Listening to some of the previous speakers would make one wonder what we on this side of the House have been doing for the last few years. However, it is precisely because of the structures that have been put in place and the support given by this Government under the EOCP since 2000 that we have more than 35,000 child care places in this scheme today.

A couple of years ago I met with local providers who were concerned about what, if anything, would be provided when the current scheme ran out. "If anything" was the big question.

I compliment the Minister of State on putting forward in a timely fashion his proposed plans because it afforded those who are providing services an opportunity to look at what they are doing and to respond to him. The Minister of State, in reply, has stated he will analyse the data he is getting and make the necessary adjustments, and that is important.

The backdrop to this is that funding in this area is not being diminished. It is actually increasing. It is a question of applying those resources fairly to achieve best value for money and to ensure that those who need the service are best assisted.

There has been much misinformation and comment about the new changes. I refer to the following comment made by Deputy Shatter last night:

As we have a growing elderly and greying population, and as the imbalance widens between those in employment and those retired, it is also dependent on our birth rate naturally growing. It should be an essential social and economic objective in this State, as in other member states of the European Union, that parents be encouraged to have children rather than discouraged, and that the economic impact of rearing a young family be mitigated or relieved, not made unnecessarily burdensome.

I agree. I would point out that he brings that aspect into a particular debate on community child care subvention and there are many other aspects. I would say to him that that is precisely what this Government believes in and has been doing, not just in the single issue area of community child care subvention but in other areas where we radically increased the child benefit payment and introduced the early child care supplement. Specifically, I make the point that at present a couple with two children under six would get annual payments of almost €6,000, a substantial increase on what was provided in 1997. It is unfair to bring this debate into other areas. This is about the community-based child care subvention.

One of the issues that arises in my area relates not to the full-time groups but to the sessional groups, all of whose members I have met and documentation on which I have given to the Minister of State, which are unable to charter this out precisely, perhaps because of the diverse range of services they offer. It is important that the groups concerned are not all full-time. Many are run in conjunction with other courses, etc.

Jim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I raised this issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Brendan Smith, on a number of occasions and he is well aware of my views. It is normal that a Member on this side of the House would be 100% behind the Minister on a Private Members' motion, but when one has to take account of three community play groups, one of which in Letterkenny closed down last week, the Minister of State can understand my reservations. Despite the assurances that have been given that these staffing grants would continue until July next, these people in the voluntary sector are afraid of getting into debt and of taking on the extra staff needed because of the uncertainty.

I have worked in Departments. It is normal in social issues such as this that the Minister would bring in consultant companies to see if he or she is getting value for money. These changes were brought about as a result of the Department getting a company to undertake a value for money audit based on the original EOCP and it found that there was a certain number of people who possibly could afford to pay more and who perhaps were getting a service a little on the cheap or at a discount. These working parents do not get much on the cheap. They pay their taxes. They pay for their medical care. They pay through the nose for everything.

This company found that they were getting a service a little on the cheap. That aside, I ask the Minister to State to find out how a consultant company puts a monetary value on the aspect of a service in which adults and children from all walks of life and from all the various social classes, high earners, low earners and people on social welfare, are mixing together and learning from one another. This scheme was a perfect example of social inclusion. What monetary value can the Minister of State put on that? What criteria do these companies use in determining that as a value for money issue?

The Minister of State is spending a great deal of money on this issue and he is not getting the credit he deserves. It has been going on for six or seven years. It was a marvellous scheme and perhaps unknown to all of us, these community play groups could have possibly sown the seeds where social inclusion could have been brought from the abstract into the three dimensional. One could see social inclusion working in this play group area. One could literally reach out and touch it.

I understand that the Minister of State must collate all his data and of course we must get value for money, but when that is completed I would urge him to tell his officials to try to reinstate this scheme in a format as close as possible to the original.

Beverley Flynn (Mayo, Independent)
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Like my colleagues, I welcome an opportunity to speak on this important motion. I am delighted that the Minister of State acknowledged the role played by community volunteers and the considerable local effort that has gone into making these two schemes such a great success story. While it is true that the Government has invested a great deal of money, but for the contribution of the local volunteers they would not have been such a success. Indeed, they are still at it, in collating the data which the Minister of State currently seeks.

I welcome the fact that the Government has created 35,000 places since 2000, but I also have a number of concerns about how the new changes will impact on some of the rural preschool groups in my constituency. I highlighted this to the Minister of State in the past, where there might be a small group of 12 parents, one of whom is working. In one group with which I am familiar only one of the 12 parents is a social welfare recipient but all of the other families are on low incomes, although they do not qualify for FIS. Particularly when one has two or more children who are availing of the preschool facility, it places a significant burden and it will be the difference between these parents making a decision not to send their children to preschool, thus denying them a valuable education and reducing the flexibility of a mother, who might decide to stay at home, to go back to education or engage in part-time work.

I recognise that the Minister of State indicated in his speech to the Seanad that there will be an element of flexibility once the data is collated and I would ask him to look carefully at that because I am concerned about the social mix that will exist in these play groups. I recognise, and I would be the first to admit, that even within my constituency in all cases the money may not have been best targeted at where it is most needed. Indeed, some community play groups operating within towns are in competition with private facilities and people who could probably well afford to pay more are not doing so, but the number of such cases is small. When one compares that number with the level of service being provided throughout my rural constituency, I would be worried about the impact the measure would have on the social mix. I do not know how the Minister of State can devise a mechanism to protect that mix, but it is particularly important that he do so.

One preschool in my constituency is currently receiving a staffing grant of €20,000. Its representatives inform me they will get €6,500 under the new rules. The Minister of State might well respond by saying that the information they provided initially to get the staffing grant was incorrect but I respectfully suggest that the relaxed attitude of the Department and the loose way in which the scheme has operated in the past has contributed to the existing situation. Much capital has been invested providing fantastic facilities that may be in jeopardy because those in my constituency tell me that they cannot afford to keep these going.

I accept the principle of trying to bring about a situation where the money is best targeted at the people most in need. It is the correct approach. However, I would also ask the Minister of State to bear in mind that when he is dealing with rural community it is important to ensure that the social mix is correct and we must devise some mechanism where low income families, which admittedly are not in receipt of a social welfare payment, can be facilitated within the new programme.

Michael Fitzpatrick (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to speak on this issue. I am proud to have been involved from a early stage in the provision of a child care facility in north-west Kildare. In 2003, when the idea was thought up, most people thought we were mad even to suggest it in a rural area. The centre was opened in 2005 following the expenditure of €2.5 million. It now caters for 51 full-time places with 60 seasonal places and the entire community realises the benefit of it.

We can probably all agree on two things, first, that there is no quick-fix solution to the problem of child care and, second, that the aim of the Government must be to help the most disadvantaged children get a better start in life. Child care costs are frequently raised by many working class families in my constituency. Few issues resonate with so many young people from all walks of life in communities across the country.

Last year I was very proud when the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brendan Smith, came to Kildare in his then role of Minister of State with responsibility for horticulture. He took time out to visit the child care centre in Allenwood and to meet the staff and children, which gave them a boost of confidence in the work they were doing.

The public policies pursued by the Government on child care have had major repercussions throughout society. Our policy has impacted on the role of women in the workplace, on the labour market and, in general, on the course of educational and social achievement.

Community child care has an important role to play within communities. While the staffing grants have been most generous, many child care facilities did not implement the tiered structure that was originally intended and this is causing problems now. I am pleased the Minister has introduced a commencement date of mid-2008, which gives all of the people involved time to put their house in order. I appeal to those who run crèches and who have not yet done so to submit the forms requested by the Department for the assessment that it is carrying out.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Like previous speakers, I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this issue. The equal opportunities child care programme is one of the most successful programmes ever introduced by any Government. In my home town of Ballymote in Sligo we received a grant of €1.3 million to set up a state-of-the-art crèche to provide child care at a reasonable cost to families on social welfare and for young working couples on low incomes who need support in terms of child care at a reasonable cost. It is important we remember these people.

I attended a meeting last Friday night in Dromahair in County Leitrim organised by the local crèche. Approximately 300 people with an interest in child care attended the meeting from all over County Leitrim. There is no doubting the genuine concern about the service that is currently provided. Part of the problem may be due to a lack of information. In fairness to the Minister of State who has requested information from the management of the existing child care facilities, it is difficult for him to make any decision until he receives the relevant information. It is necessary to examine who exactly is benefiting, what can be done and what amount of money is needed to continue the service in each area.

People know the benefit of the service they receive. In many cases those who are providing the service are young mothers who have improved their education by increasing their knowledge of child care. I spoke to the parents of a child care worker last night who has completed a level 4 course at her own expense and is considering doing a level 6 course, which is a degree course. She is a single parent. These people are totally dedicated to the job they do.

It was also pointed out to me that in many cases they have been working for the past five years without any pay increase. Some of them are working for less than the average industrial wage. I commend them on their dedication to the service they provide. When the relevant information comes back, I implore the Minister of State to seriously consider trying to maintain child care services as close as possible to current levels because there is no doubt they have provided a great service for people.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I commend the Government on the success of the not-for-profit child care facilities which have been of great benefit to communities where they have been provided. Significant voluntary effort has been made by local communities to access funding and, in co-operation with the Department, fantastic facilities have been set up across the country, no more so than in my own patch. I visited them in recent years and I was struck by the gainful employment being provided in rural communities in particular that would not have many employment opportunities. Some staff were not previously in the workforce. These child care facilities have allowed parents to go back to education. Affordable child care has been a fantastic social inclusion measure. Perhaps that was not the original intention but that has been an additional benefit. Excellent work has been done and opportunities have been created to allow people to join the workforce or to retrain.

I welcome the motion and the Minister's statement, previously in the Seanad and again tonight, about his intention when all the information that has been requested from the child care facilities is returned to the Department. One of the difficulties in the provision of child care was whether to classify people. People will find a change difficult. I spoke to the Minister of State on a number of occasions about this issue. Those who have been able to get back into the workforce, even though they may be on low incomes and for whom it is just economic to go out to work, have gained a great sense of self worth and become integrated into society. I urge the Minister of State to ensure these people are catered for when the information is analysed by the Department. We must ensure the child care facilities the Government has put in place across the country can continue to survive and to prosper and grow because they have provided a fantastic service across the country. When the information is analysed it is important to ensure we get the right level of service and target the money for child care at the people who most need it.

Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I am pleased the House has an opportunity to debate the details of the community child care subvention scheme. I am also pleased both the Dáil and the Seanad have been addressed by the Minister of State on this matter as his Department continues its evaluation and assessment of its implications. While I welcome the focus the Minister of State and his officials are putting on the most disadvantaged and needy in devising the community child care subvention scheme, I am pleased to note he is keeping an open mind on its implementation.

Much has been achieved in recent years in building up and supporting community child care here. Challenging as the task has been at a time of much social transformation here, the creation of 36,000 new child care places, 25,000 additional places supported and nearly 3,000 jobs created, and a scheme where social integration has been promoted, are all commendable achievements. They make it all the more imperative that the equal opportunities childcare programme replacement is foolproof. In assessing the data on parent profile returns, which many child care centres are reporting difficulty in receiving back from parents, I urge the Minister to be vigilant as to what the community child care sector is saying.

While it is equitable and fair to target grant aid to those with the lowest incomes, there must be realism and imagination in deciding on the thresholds. Anecdotal evidence and correspondence received by many TDs in recent weeks and months suggest that those just above the family income supplement threshold will not be able to afford the child care being provided by the community not-for-profit sector. A significant number of people would lose out as a result. In many rural areas, including areas of north Kilkenny and parts of south Carlow where there are no private child care providers, the not-for-profit centres will lose business and may be forced to close. The objective, successfully achieved since 2000, of encouraging parents to return to the workforce or training, developing good staff to child ratios and making pre-school and after school care affordable, might be endangered. The House should accept at face value what both the value for money review and the Minister have said about the non-implementation of realistic tiered fee charges by community crèches but the way to maintain inclusiveness of access is ensuring such tapering of these is implemented rather than drawing stark lines of subvention eligibility.

I hope the Minister will consider that throughout the review. The Green Party will support any child care subvention scheme that is equitable and inclusive. The increase of over 16% in funding allocation for 2008 is welcome but I call on the Minister to get the system right before next July to ensure equality of access and the promotion of social integration. We must ensure we are not here a year from now wondering why many working parents had to quit jobs because of the cost of their child care, why communities lost their not for profit child care centres and why such communities in turn may become ghettoised.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Enright, Creighton, Crawford, Naughten, Ring, Tom Hayes, Doyle, Bannon and Creed.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We are asking the Government to postpone the introduction of this proposed new child care subvention scheme as it will, intentionally or not, reduce the availability of child care in our communities. Many people from the Government side of the House expressed their concern about that also. It is good to hear positivity coming from the other side of the House regarding the concerns that were expressed here last week and the week before.

The Government is again spending more money with the net effect of reducing service, as the motion points out, because it will impose intolerable financial pressures on many parents by increasing the cost of child care. It will force parents to leave employment and become dependent on social welfare payments. It will cause the closure of many not for profit crèches throughout the country and make it difficult for crèches to recruit staff on a permanent basis.

It is the families on the lowest income who will suffer, as is so often the case with this Government. Those parents have come together to provide child care in a co-operative and community orientated way, and they will now be penalised. I am aware of one such project in its infancy in Balbriggan town where parents have come together as a group to provide a 37 place community crèche. They now wonder if their efforts at self-help will be sunk by this mean-minded reduction in child care subvention for low income families. Those families cannot avail of child care on the open market as it is beyond their means.

I have also received representation from a voluntary child care group in Skerries that has struggled long and hard to maintain and provide a voluntary not for profit child care service in the town for families who could not afford the alternative for profit expensive child care. They are very concerned they may lose a substantial proportion of their annual child care subvention. Fees charged to some of their low income families may increase by up to 50%. I urge the Minister to reconsider this retrograde and family unfriendly measure.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The number of Deputies wishing to speak on this motion is an indication of its importance and the number of people who are affected by it.

The Government has an uncoordinated approach to child care and a lack of coherent policy spanning the many Departments that deal with the issue, despite having a Minister of State with responsibility for children for a number of years. The current Government proposal has created huge uncertainty for child care providers, parents and the community groups who put major effort into getting these facilities in their communities in the first place.

This proposal is ill-considered and misses three key points. First, the loss of subvention will lead to increased charges to parents for child care when many are already stretched to breaking point trying to make ends meet. It will be particularly difficult for those on low incomes who are just above the cut-off point for family income supplement. Effectively, this means that even those on low incomes will now have to pay the full cost of child care. That will be a huge increase which will force many out of the service.

Second, the effect of this measure will be to give families little or no choice. They must either give up their job and depend on social welfare to allow their child attend the crèche, which clearly will not be necessary if the parent is at home, or work to pay for the child care and bring home little or nothing on top of it.

Third, the Government proposal is contrary to all it has said in the past about creating a better social mix. One Fianna Fáil TD admitted that it will have a ghettoising effect but his viewpoint appears to have been ignored. What message is the Government trying to send out to young children and how limiting will it be for their socialisation skills to be mixing only with those from a similar socio-economic background from such a young age? It is contrary to all good policy in terms of children.

The Minister of State, Deputy Smith, may claim to be attempting to improve access for those who are worse off financially but he is doing it in such a blunt way he has failed to see the implications of his decision. Many operators in my constituency have expressed their concerns to me. The members of one group in the process of starting such a facility have told me they believe there is little point in proceeding. Others who have magnificent facilities funded by the State worry they will not be able to remain in operation, which would be a waste of the State's investment.

The Government must re-examine this issue. If it is not prepared to listen to the Fine Gael Members on this side of the House, it would do well to listen to its own backbenchers whose speeches sound remarkably similar to our own.

Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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This new scheme will have the effect of reducing the options open to families throughout the country and driving people back into welfare dependence out of which they had dragged themselves to a large extent.

According to the European Centre for Social Welfare Policy and Research, Ireland has among the highest child care fees in Europe. The cost of child care to a family on an average wage here is far higher than in most of the other OECD countries. When we take into account the tax reductions, child care benefits and rebates available, Irish families endure the highest net costs for child care. It now appears the Government will attack families even further by making child care even more expensive for working families, particularly those in disadvantaged areas. This problem must be tackled by making child care more affordable for young working families who are the future of the economy. As it stands, the Government will encourage parents to become dependent on social welfare instead of giving them the financial incentive to return to the workplace, or remain in the workplace as is the case in many areas.

Some areas in my constituency have between 40% and 50% of adults with only primary school education, making support in education a massive priority for the area. On a recent visit to the Ringsend Action Project in my constituency, I was shown the great work that had been done to combat those statistics in that area. They are working in a very effective manner to educate people, particularly through adult learning. Their breakfast club, and particularly their after school programme, is a critical aspect of this and is testament to what can be achieved with the right investment and approach from such proactive communities.

The calculations given to me by the Ringsend Action Project, if the Minister's plans go ahead, are that they will be forced to charge €1,500 per child to plan B parents, that is, those on disability allowance, invalidity benefit and so on, and well over €2,000 per child for parents who are working in lower paid jobs. The choice facing them is to impose the system or to make redundant the two part-time primary teachers and the full-time adult worker in the breakfast and after school clubs and to shut the scheme down. It is not an acceptable outcome.

The funding proposals are bad for community crèches, young families on low incomes and social welfare recipients. If the Government insists on going down this road, it will create a scheme whereby low income families are encouraged to return to social welfare dependency. The Government should do everything in its power to avoid that scenario.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Last Friday, the Minister of State, Deputy Smith, was the guest of honour at a child care conference in the Hillgrove Hotel in Monaghan. He spent 45 minutes speaking of the need for quality child care, on which all Deputies agree. He spent ten minutes on the subvention issue, much of it claiming there was a misinformation campaign. I assure the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, that it is not a misinformation campaign.

Our excellent community child care facilities, which include pre-school and crèche services, were set up with the help of significant amounts of voluntary work and EU funding in many towns and villages. They are part-funded by the Government as a means of providing community affordable child care, but essential funding will now be changed, that is, there will be cutbacks. Parents will be means tested. If they do not qualify, child care staffing grants will be reduced accordingly. These proposals will result in a considerable reduction in income for community child care facilities. They will be forced to increase their prices. The shortfall in funding must be paid for by non-qualifying families in the form of increased fees. The shortfall will also mean job losses.

Not-for-profit facilities do not know whether they will be able to recruit permanent staff. The facility at Drum, a small and mainly Protestant community, does not have a hope of getting started if the Minister's proposals are approved. However, the Government gave it a grant despite having full knowledge of the facility's structure and future needs. The facility at Mullaghmatt, a housing estate in a difficult area of Monaghan town, will lose €25,000. This will have major implications for the scheme. The Ballybay scheme has not even got off the ground. Despite there being more than €1 million in Government and EU grants, there is no long-term future.

The Minister of State should withdraw the proposals. Let us keep the current scheme until the end of next year at least. We should consider the proposals' implications for child care and those employed in that sector. We should take a common sense approach. I met some of the senior executives in the Civil Service, who understand that what has been done is unworkable and must be restructured.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The future of local community child care facilities is being threatened by the new funding structure to be introduced by the Government on 1 January. Under the new staffing grant scheme, only children whose parents are in receipt of social welfare payments will be eligible for some financial support. Those parents will still face significant weekly bills. From discussing the matter with several groups throughout the Roscommon-South Leitrim constituency, I know that up to 90% of children will be deemed ineligible for any financial support because one parent is earning more than the social welfare cut-off point.

Many community groups providing not-for-profit child care services have legitimate concerns that, as a consequence of the new funding arrangements, it may become financially impossible to provide their services. The State provided facilities with significant amounts through capital investment to get them up and running, but the withdrawal of the State's financial support and the ever-changing HSE requirements, which have further cost implications, will pass considerable costs to young families struggling to cope with their increasing mortgages. The funding plan will force some parents out of employment, as they will be unable to afford child care. This goes against the principle of the current scheme, the objective of which was to encourage women back into education, training and the workforce. We are now telling those women that their role is not valued. The Government's thoughtless introduction of a scheme has sent shock waves through communities. It is anti-family and will force many parents into the social welfare cycle rather than help them to break out of it.

Community child care has been a success story and has supported the children in the small, rural schools of many communities. Why will the income of facilities providing such a vital service be reduced? The scheme must be reconsidered. The Government must return to the drawing board, engage in a more widespread and thorough consultation and introduce a funding scheme to support communities, not undermine them. I commend the motion to the House.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I compliment my colleague, Deputy Shatter, on tabling this motion. He did so because of people's anger concerning what the Government proposes regarding a good scheme. It has been stated that the Government is reviewing the scheme by sending out forms to assess people's means, incomes and employment. I do not understand why people must tamper with something that works. There is a cost factor here but the changes are anti-family, anti-women and anti-children.

The Government is supposed to distribute taxes fairly. There is nothing wrong with taking care of children and families on low incomes. Women in Fianna Fáil's parliamentary party should put pressure on the Minister and speak up on this issue because the changes are an attack on women. Women will be deprived of the opportunity to get out of the home and into the workplace. If they lose the scheme, they will be pressured into giving up work and returning to social welfare payments. Some women may not even be eligible for social welfare payments.

Regarding the means test, the poor may be protected sometimes, but the middle class has been squeezed for too long. We are discussing people on low incomes who do not qualify for medical cards or social welfare payments, but who pay for everything. Nothing is wrong with subsidised child care facilities. The system works well. I have been contacted by people from west, south, east and north Mayo who have good community facilities operating on a voluntary basis.

The Government should not proceed with its proposals and should leave the scheme alone because it is working. Tomorrow, Fianna Fáil's female Deputies and Senators should send a deputation to the Minister and the Taoiseach to tell them the changes will not be allowed to take place because they are an attack on women, particularly women in rural Ireland.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Having listened to some of the carefully crafted speeches by Members on Government benches and Deputies joined to the Government's hip, I wondered whether they spoke to the motion or the amendment. Like the people on this side of the House, they have received much correspondence from community child care facilities in their constituencies expressing concern about it. If this revised programme were so wonderful I doubt we would have had such contributions from the Opposition. The proposal reduces people's incentives to return to work. As far back as the Tallaght strategy it was recognised that we had to get people back to work, encourage them and show that taking a job would not penalise them. However this scheme will penalise people.

I have had representations from various groups including Wicklow County Childcare Committee and Arklow and Newtown community play groups. They feel they are becoming data collectors for the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I have used a credit union and while I do not divulge all my financial details to it, I trust it. The play groups have built up good relationships with their clients over the years and it has been a good scheme. It has worked and community play groups have tailored their facilities to the scheme that was in place. The Fine Gael Parliamentary Party has met officials from the Department, who took on board the concerns and suggestions. Judging by this amendment the suggestions are recognised but nothing will be done about them. This scheme should not be enacted until the end of 2008 at the earliest, or when all the data that is being sought has been gathered. The child care facility providers are not the right conduit to gather that data. I urge the House to support the motion.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I support this motion and thank my colleague, Deputy Shatter, for raising this important issue. Whether the Minister hears it or not, the public has spoken. As a director and board member of the Legan Childcare Committee, I have my finger on the pulse of public opinion. The concerted outcry against the proposed new subvention scheme for funding community child care is deafening, and only someone with a closed mind and blocked ears could fail to hear it or judge its meaning. Rebellion is in the air. We planned to invite the Minister to officially open the new child care facility in my parish, but we decided against it because we did not want to have his bones as stepping stones.

Time and again the Opposition has highlighted the lack of joined up thinking in Government policy. In my own area of Longford and Westmeath there has been considerable development in the child care sector since the equal opportunities child care programme was introduced in 2000. Grant aid has resulted in the building of seven new child care facilities and the upgrading of three more, with a total of 20 in Longford alone, and an increase in staff from 25 to almost 200 in the sector. Seven years later these facilities face closure. I am glad the Minister has had to row back to a certain extent due to public opinion, however the scheme will cause the price of child care to rise by up to 65% to meet the shortfall in funding.

These cutbacks will force women back to the dark ages, or place them back in the role set out for them under Article 41.2.1 of the Constitution. Article 41.2.2 makes provision for the regulation of women's lives and states that women should not be forced by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home. Is the Minister trying to tell us indirectly that he believes parents, women or men, should stay at home to look after their children and that in line with Scandinavian social policy, he will pay them to do so? I think not, so I ask the Minister to think again of the hardship he plans to visit on parents and children and the devastation he will cause in the child care sector, where newly built facilities will be forced to close and hand back the key and child care workers will face unemployment. This scenario is a serious threat not only to the freedom of parents to choose to participate in the workplace and to access affordable child care but to our economy and to the fabric of our society.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Last Friday night I attended a meeting in Cork organised by the Cork County Childcare Committee. It was attended substantially by women involved in the provision of community child care and women whose children were the beneficiaries of community child care. If Government Members intent on voting down the Fine Gael motion had attended that meeting they would need hearts of stone not to be moved by the stories of the individual community child care facilities and parents involved. It is a pathetic commentary on the immaturity of this House that Members can, in political pygmy fashion, speak in favour of the motion and then vote against it.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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That is a shocking commentary on the immaturity of this democracy. If the Government attempted to foist such a change on children aged five, six or seven, there would be a revolution. However it is attempted on children at preschool community child care facilities and will impact mostly on vulnerable, voiceless, low-income groups who cannot afford the PR spin doctors to make their case in The Irish Times where it will be heard. Therefore these people will be trod on. It is difficult to imagine a more anti-community measure. The Government's amendment will send out the message that it is okay to segregate children, that there are separate places for low-income and social welfare dependent children, and that people who attempt to better themselves and lift themselves out of poverty will be thrown back into the poverty trap. If it is not broken, the Minister should not fix it.

Countless millions of euro have been invested in capital infrastructure for the community child care facilities. Why would we seek to dismantle the bridgehead the providers of these community child care facilities are to the low-income families in particular and to the community at large by asking community child care facilities to become social welfare or community welfare officers of the State? Why must they ask of the parents who benefit from their facilities their incomes, P60s and financial circumstances? That is not what these community driven activists got involved in. What of those who work in community child care? What of their prospects? Community child care facilities will close and people employed in them will become unemployed. This is a drastic, unforgivable proposal by the Government. In the interests of community, low-income workers, social welfare dependants and all children, I appeal to the Government to step back from the breach and to allow some breathing space, as implied in the motion. Let us formulate a better proposal that will enable these community facilities to continue to provide a service and prosper.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Deputy Shatter on bringing forward this important motion. I am also delighted that Deputy Devins is with us, having attended a large public meeting with child care providers at Dromahair, County Leitrim, last week. Deputy Devins was conscious of the clear message from that meeting. The purpose of this valuable motion is to achieve major improvements to the child care subvention scheme proposed by this Government. From the time this proposed scheme was announced I have received strong representations from many parents expressing alarm at the proposed changes. These parents are concerned at the extra financial demands that will hit them, and that some of them will be forced to leave employment if they wish to have their children attend local child care facilities. The proposed new scheme will block the hopes of parents who currently work at home and who wish to resume training and employment. As an immediate step to defuse this looming crisis, the Government must agree to the extension of the existing subvention up to 31 December 2008 to ease the concerns and fears of parents. The proposed six monthly review period up to June 2008 is not long enough for community child care facilities to accumulate the information being requested by the Department. We must get a full and fair picture of the additional costs being imposed on the different categories of parents if the Government's proposed cutbacks to the child care subvention scheme are implemented as planned. It is essential that the review is conducted over 12 months, not six months. A 12 month review period would cover the full annual cycle of costs and would give a more balanced picture.

The Government's proposed new child care subvention scheme has one worthwhile aim, which is to help disadvantaged children. I fully support this aim. However, the proposed scheme does not provide sufficient support to community child care services as they try to provide a reasonable service for parents and children at an affordable cost. We must avoid the creation of a new low working income trap, similar to the poverty trap we had some years ago. The danger with the proposed child care scheme is that a key socio-economic group of parents, particularly mothers, will become separated from opportunities by their income, access to education and to jobs. We must avoid the reinvention of the situation where it is better to be on welfare than at work. In rural community child care services, such as in my own constituency of Sligo-North Leitrim, it is the integrated and balanced local community-based role of the service that deserves the strongest support from the child care subvention scheme.

I ask the Taoiseach to take a direct personal interest in this issue. We know that he has a deep interest in the work of Professor Robert D. Putnam and his valuable research work on the idea of social capital. The development of high social capital and good civic engagement at local community level are directly related. These factors are a major asset for our society. From Professor Putnam's research work, we know that opportunities to participate in the workforce and quality child care are core issues in building a well integrated society. Rural community child care services are an excellent example of the type of local community co-operation that builds social capital and social equality.

In order to ensure that we do not lose the valuable results that have been achieved to date by the various community child care services now up and running, I call on the Government to bring forward major improvements to the child care subvention scheme now proposed. Every child care provider in Sligo-North Leitrim attended a huge public rally last week in Dromahair and the message was clear. This scheme should be withdrawn until the Government can come back with a scheme that is workable.

Jimmy Devins (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all Members for their contributions and I will respond to specific issues raised by speakers and comment on some of the wider issues raised.

A number of accusations have been made about the new scheme. These include the claim that it will lead to the segregation of children, with only disadvantaged children in community-based services. The EOCP staffing support grant was only available to community services in disadvantaged areas whereas the new scheme will be available to all such services, irrespective of their location. This will facilitate more disadvantaged parents in accessing subsidised child care and will improve the social mix.

It is untrue that the new scheme will penalise working parents, that it is a poverty trap or that it will target parents on social welfare who do not need child care services. As the Minister of State, Deputy Smith, said, the scheme has started by identifying the two most disadvantaged categories of parents, namely, those in receipt of social welfare payments and those in receipt of the family income supplement. Where these parents avail of full day care services, they will still have to pay the cost reduced by the subvention. Therefore, it is clear that these parents will generally be people engaged in back to work or community employment schemes, people who are in training or education, lone parents and young mothers completing secondary education.

If the new scheme did not target subsidised child care for these parents to lift them out of the poverty trap, Deputies in this House would be calling for the scheme to be amended to do exactly what it is doing. It is crucial that parents in receipt of social welfare are given the opportunity to access affordable pre-school services for their children and give them the best possible educational start in life.

Working parents on low incomes represent the other key target group of the scheme. This will mean that as the scheme stands, a family with two children with a net income of €550 per week will qualify for the child care subvention. This is well above the minimum wage income, at €346 for a 40-hour week, and the average industrial wage, at €615 per week. The Minister of State has repeatedly stated that parents on low income will be beneficiaries of the scheme.

For smaller services in rural areas, the cost price per place is higher as a result of the scale of their service. This is an issue the Minister of State and his officials have flagged for some time as one to be addressed in the enhancement of the scheme.

Department officials told groups at regional seminars that they were aware that the minimum staffing ratios under the child care regulations place a disproportionate burden on such services and that an amendment to the scheme to address that would be considered when the data were received. I cannot pre-empt the Government decision that will enhance the scheme, but the Minister of State, Deputy Smith, has discussed this matter extensively with his officials. He is happy that it will address that issue in a way that will take on board the anomalous positions of these services and that will remain consistent with the overall framework of the scheme.

I hope that the assurances given to this House by the Minister of State will meet some of the concerns expressed by Deputies during this debate. The new scheme will be finalised in early 2008 and will continue to target support for community services, but in a more effective and transparent way. Funding will be approved until the end of 2010, subject to minor adjustments from year to year based on the parental returns and staff should be no less secure under the new scheme as a result.

The community child care subvention scheme provides an effective and equitable framework to support community child care services and target disadvantaged parents and their children. The Minister of State is committed to completing the process of bringing this scheme into full effect in July 2008 following its final consideration by the Government, on the basis of the comprehensive data analysis which he hopes to have completed in early 2008. On this basis, I commend the Government amendment to the House.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sure that by now the Minister of State has heard all the arguments against the introduction of the new community child care subvention scheme, which is being introduced with no consultation with those people who are working at the coalface and those families who will be most affected. I am not going to baffle him with statistics, but I would like to give him two examples of the impact that this scheme will have on ordinary mothers. Last week I attended a public meeting on this issue and a young mother stood up and said "I am nobody, but my child is somebody." This is a young mother who, because of where she was born, has been labelled as disadvantaged all her life. She does not believe her child is disadvantaged and, like any mother, she wants the best for her child. This new subvention scheme, whether the Minister of State wants to believe it, will label children as disadvantaged. The second example is of a mother I met at a meeting last week. She was an early school leaver but is working part time after completing an adult education course. She is now in what the Government calls the modest income bracket, which means she will not benefit in any way from the new subvention scheme as she is slightly above the cut-off point.

Does the Minister of State realise what this scheme will do to communities? It will send people back to social welfare benefits, which is wrong in this day and age. The Government needs to pay more than lip service to creating equality and cherishing all of our children equally. I urge the Minister of State to consider his actions this evening. I call on those Ministers representing Dublin South-Central to consider the implications the scheme will have on a very sizable number of our constituents.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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I commend Deputy Shatter on tabling this motion. The Government must radically modify the new proposed child care subvention scheme which it intends to become fully operational from 1 July 2008. This new scheme will impose large financial pressures on many parents by increasing the expense of child care. It will force some parents to leave employment and become dependent on social welfare.

In the Dublin North-East constituency, many crèches will be forced to close. Today, I met members of TARGET which operates a child care crèche facility in Donaghmede. They are deeply concerned with the proposed new scheme. Up to 600 people use the facilities operated by TARGET. It is a community facility, providing several services including adult education, a local community employment programme, English language classes for foreign nationals and community child care. People access its facilities across north Dublin including Balbriggan and Clontarf. TARGET runs a community child care facility which supports people who use its free counselling and literacy service. The facility is free of charge and enables people to use the education services operated by TARGET.

TARGET has been running successfully for the past 13 years. Its child care staff includes a supervisor and one child care worker while five other employees work in the child care facility on community employment schemes. The EOCP grant helped TARGET to build up these facilities. Due to limitations on the size of its child care facilities, it will be impossible for TARGET to enrol a sufficient number of children in receipt of subvention to facilitate the payment of the two salaries covered by the EOCP grant.

Under the proposed new scheme, it will be impossible for TARGET to judge at the beginning of the year its annual income from child care as children come and go. Attendance, for example, always drops off during the summer and this will make it impossible to ensure staff have sufficient job security.

Under the scheme, TARGET will have to let go its crèche supervisor and child care worker. Its adult education classes and its literacy classes will not be able to continue. Up to 24 people will become unemployed along with several teachers and counsellors. The community will lose four valuable community services that have been working for it for over 15 years. Parenting skills classes, special needs services and English language classes for foreign nationals will have to end. This is just one example of how the new scheme will affect one existing service. This will be replicated in similar facilities across the country.

A form of financial support for community child care is badly needed. The current system is working and I ask the Minister not to tamper with it. He must extend the application of the existing subvention scheme until 31 December 2008.

I call all Members to support Deputy Shatter's motion to retain the existing subvention scheme.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank my colleagues in the Fine Gael Party and other Opposition Members who spoke so eloquently in support of this motion.

I am somewhat puzzled by the contributions of Fianna Fáil Members. It is a tradition in the House for Government Members to support their Minister in whatever he or she is doing. The tradition has somewhat changed in the past 24 hours. Apparently, most Fianna Fáil Members have grave concerns about the implications of the proposed child care scheme but they will support the Minister regardless. This is most unfortunate.

This is not a motion of confidence in the Government. It is about genuine concerns about the implications of the proposed scheme for not-for-profit child care facilities and the impact it will have on parents and children. I would like to see those Members of Fianna Fáil who had the courage to express their concerns to have the same courage when voting on the motion. This is a parliament, not a theatre. We should vote on what we believe and not just play political games in the Chamber.

We need more, not fewer, affordable child-centred child care services. I recognise the Government has put up to €300 million in funding for the provision of good not-for-profit child care facilities. People in communities across the State have volunteered their time and made great efforts to provide the type of child care facilities that were badly needed for a long time. This was done not just to facilitate children but to facilitate mothers trying to get back into the workforce. It assisted young families under financial pressure to maintain two incomes. It was not just a back-to-work scheme but one that facilitated those in low-income groups to remain in the workforce.

The new scheme announced by the Government will pull the rug from under their feet. The consistent approach over recent years to not-for-profit child care facilities was supported on all sides of the House. The Minister of State, Deputy Devins, claims the proposed scheme will provide child care subventions for those in receipt of social welfare benefits or those in employment in receipt of family income supplement. On all sides of the House, it is recognised the scheme must also make provision for those in the workforce in receipt of low incomes who do not fall within eligibility criteria for family income supplement.

The proposed scheme is to become operational on 1 July 2008 with a transitional arrangement to maintain the current scheme. The Government has also promised to do something but it still does not know exactly what. It hopes those running not-for-profit child care services will maintain existing services. However, not one Member on the Government side can say what steps will be taken to ensure this.

The motion calls for certainty in this sector for the next 12 months. The Government must maintain the current scheme until 31 December 2008 and examine the data it will collect. It is an extraordinary approach for the Government to announce a new scheme without knowing how it will impact and then to claim it will research it afterwards. It also claims that when the research is completed it will work out how and when it will change the scheme. Not-for-profit child care services which need to recruit new staff cannot give any security of contract or inform prospective employees if they will be employed from 1 July 2008.

The Minister claims there was misinformation from this side of the House. There has been no misinformation on this side of the House. The Minister for State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Devins, referred to regional seminars. The Department's regional seminars highlighted the inadequacies of the scheme and caused alarm bells to ring in the heads of those across the country who have provided these services. We have not criticised the financial allocation for child care services. The Minister of State has been slaying dragons that do not exist by accusing people of criticising the level of funding available from his Department. We are criticising the new scheme which will not allow for the proper expenditure of that funding and will leave far too many families under financial pressure. The detail of the scheme threatens the future functioning of facilities that work well, the employment of the staff in them and creates real worries for parents, particularly women, about their capacity to remain in employment.

I predict that if the House does not vote to extend the scheme to December 2008 it will prove impossible to collate the significant information being furnished to the Department by over 800 child care facilities and tens of thousands of parents, and to work out what the changes should be. It is likely that although the Government will reject this motion the current scheme may have to continue to the end of the year. Would it not be better to do this by agreement on all sides of the House than to allow the uncertainty continue for several months? I urge the House to support the motion.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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As a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means. I would like to offer the Government backbenchers another opportunity to vote with the Opposition.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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As Deputy Paul Kehoe is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."