Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet sub-committees on which he sits; and the sub-committees and interdepartmental working groups on which his Department is represented. [16866/07]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet sub-committees currently operating under the auspices of his Department; when each last met; and when the next meeting is planned. [20164/07]

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together. Since it was appointed on 14 June 2007, the Government has established six Cabinet committees on which I sit. Details of these committees and the dates of their meetings, where appropriate, are as follows: the Cabinet committee on European affairs last met on 17 October 2007 and is due to meet again in December 2007; the Cabinet committee on health last met on 3 October 2007 and is due to meet again this week; the Cabinet committee on climate change and energy security last met on 12 September 2007 and is due to meet again later this month; the Cabinet committee on housing, infrastructure and public private partnerships last met on 10 October 2007 and is due to meet again in December; the Cabinet committee on social inclusion, children and integration last met on 24 October 2007 and no date has yet been set for the next meeting of the committee; and the Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation is due to meet later this month.

Cabinet committees are an integral part of the Cabinet process. Questions as to the business conducted at Cabinet or Cabinet committee meetings have never been allowed in the House on the grounds that they are internal to Government. The reasons for this approach are founded on sound policy principles and the need to avoid infringing the constitutional protection of Cabinet confidentiality.

As always, questions on particular policy issues should be put down to the relevant Ministers. I am circulating in the Official Report a list for the information of Deputies detailing the primary sub-committees and interdepartmental working groups on which my Department is represented.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It was Deputy Ó Caoláin's question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. He previously indicated to me that the Cabinet committee on health meets once a month. From the list of six committees the Taoiseach has outlined to us, can I take it that he is a member of the Cabinet committee on health? Does he attend these meetings every month and does the Cabinet committee on health receive reports from the HSE?

I appreciate very well the point made by the Taoiseach about Cabinet confidentiality and how this precludes him from going into detail. Can he give us some sense of the breadth of the deliberations of the Cabinet committee on health? For instance, with the current——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not possible for the Taoiseach to discuss with the House or to reply to any question dealing with matters discussed in the sub-committee because they impinge upon what is correctly described by Deputy Ó Caoláin as Cabinet confidentiality.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have already acknowledged that.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is no point in asking those questions.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am mindful that a number of points must be addressed. I seek to establish the breadth of the deliberations of the committee. I have acknowledged that, under Cabinet confidentiality rules, the Taoiseach cannot respond in respect of detail. I take on board what the Ceann Comhairle has stated but I ask the Taoiseach to indicate the breadth of the deliberations of the Cabinet sub-committee on health rather than the specifics of any given matter. Are current issues such as the cancer scandal in Portlaoise? Is the wider policy approach, such as the implementation of the Teamwork and Hanly reports, addressed? Are matters such as the budget shortfall, which is the hook upon which the HSE is hanging the excuse for the embargo on staff recruitment, addressed by the committee in the presence of the Taoiseach?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I must repeat myself because it is important in terms of precedent. It is not possible for the Taoiseach to discuss those matters here. The question submitted relates to statistical matters, dates and times of meetings. This is all that is in order in terms of supplementary questions. The Taoiseach would be out of order and wrong to respond to anything else. Questions regarding the scope, content and the nature of the meetings cannot be asked or answered.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Taking on board what the Ceann Comhairle has stated, I hope the Taoiseach can imaginatively respond to this Deputy's questions. With regard to policy, matters regarding the health services are addressed by the Cabinet sub-committee on health. In addressing policy, does the sub-committee also address contradictions in policy?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Ó Caoláin must listen. This is my third interjection. I hate interjecting and it is not my policy to do so. Policy matters are matters for the line Minister and are not in order here.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What type of democratic system do we have?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Ó Caoláin should let me finish. He is impinging on the issue of Cabinet confidentiality, which is not allowed.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not intend to do so. With respect, I have prefaced my questioning by making it clear that I understand and appreciate that difficulty. However, we do not live in a dictatorship; this is a democracy. I am trying to establish something other than that the committee sits at all and that the Taoiseach is a member of it — big deal. Let us have some light shone on what the committee is about. It is important that the Taoiseach acknowledges its central role in the determination of Government health policy. That is a valid area for any Deputy to tease out with the Taoiseach. That is why he is here and I am here to ask questions.

In defining policy — I am not referring to specific aspects — where there are contradictions between its presentation by the HSE and by the Minister, are these matters addressed by the sub-committee on health? There are many examples, not least in the roll-out of radiotherapy centres. Professor Drumm wishes to see these in the hands of the public health system and the Minister wishes to see them in the hands of public private partnerships. Are issues such as this addressed by the Cabinet sub-committee? In recognising that there is a need to have a greater understanding of the role and work of the committee, will the Taoiseach shed some light on what he is at?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

For the fourth time, it is not open to the Taoiseach to answer the questions posed by the Deputy. Under the principle of collective responsibility, health policy is a matter for the Minister for Health and Children. These are statistical questions. Questions relating to discussions that have been, are being or are due to be held may not be asked during Taoiseach's Question Time. That is a long-standing precedent of the House and I must enforce it. The only question the Taoiseach may answer is that relating to his own attendance.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was going to make the point that it is open to the Deputy to table any of the other questions he posed to the Minister for Health and Children. In many cases I answer those questions in a different format during Leaders' Questions. However, because Cabinet committees are an extension of the Cabinet itself, I cannot answer them here.

The meetings to which the Deputy refers take place monthly and I attend them. All relevant issues are discussed at these meetings.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In light of the large amount of publicity it has received recently, has the Taoiseach attended a screening of Michael Moore's new film "Sicko"? The film throws some light on the health system in the United States. I recommend that the Taoiseach see it because it exposes some of the practices that obtain and the participants involved in the delivery of the so-called health service in the United States. Some of the companies featured in the film have been invited to operate private for-profit health facilities in this country. If the Taoiseach has already seen "Sicko", that is well and good. If not, I recommend that he do so.

In replies to questions I tabled on previous occasions, the Taoiseach referred to the high level interdepartmental committee on North-South matters and the North-South interdepartmental co-ordinating group. Are these entities continuing to operate as they did in the past or has their work been stepped up or moved into another realm of engagement since the restoration of the Executive north of the Border? Will the Taoiseach shed some light on what is happening with these two interdepartmental bodies?

The Taoiseach, in his earlier reply, could have given a little bit more information regarding the Cabinet committee on health or any of the other committees without in any way breaching confidentiality from a Cabinet point of view.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach could not have done so.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He could have done so.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No, he could not.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We shall have to agree to differ on that matter.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach may reply in respect of the interdepartmental groups.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The work of the interdepartmental groups is continuing. Work relating to the North-South bodies is moving from the previous agenda towards matters involving more economic co-operation. I refer in this regard to work involving the North-South Ministerial Council and the other relevant councils that are now thankfully meeting either weekly or a number of times each week. The work and input of my Department in respect of these bodies and in co-ordinating their activities is probably more intense now that all of them are up and running. My Department is also involved, along with the Department of Foreign Affairs, in setting the agenda for the British-Irish Council. It is hoped that we will soon be working on matters involving the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Assembly in Northern Ireland.

The level of activity relating to the North-South bodies, particularly the Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council, is growing on a weekly basis. We are in the process of arranging meetings for 2008. It is likely that there will be three sets of meetings in 2008 if we cannot — as a result of the important meetings to take place in the United States — arrange to hold meetings before Christmas. The meetings will be held either just before or just after Christmas. The activity, agenda and workload relating to these are being progressed.

As the Deputy is aware, the all-island energy market came into effect last week and there are many other areas in respect of which there is cross-departmental co-operation. The bodies are up and running again and are very active.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Are all three Government parties represented on each Cabinet committee? The dates of meetings were quickly mentioned by the Taoiseach and I did not get them all noted. He indicated a date for the next meeting of the Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation. When did it last meet?

I understand from the Taoiseach that the Cabinet committee on climate change and energy security last met eight weeks ago on 12 September. How many meetings of this committee have been held since the Government was formed in June?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The formats of Cabinet committees differ. Some meet monthly, others quarterly and others every six weeks. The Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation meets quarterly. The Cabinet committee on health normally meets monthly as does the Cabinet committee on housing, infrastructure and public private partnerships. The Cabinet committee on social inclusion, children and integration meets every six weeks approximately. The Cabinet committee on climate change and energy security meets every two months. It is a new committee and the next meeting is due next week. It last met in mid-September.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach did not answer my question. I wanted to know when the Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation last met. I will put the question another way. Has it met since the Government was formed in June?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will have to check. It normally meets quarterly.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am surprised the Taoiseach does not have an answer to the question he was asked on the dates the committees met. I presume the Taoiseach knows whether this committee has met since the Government was formed in June. This is also true of the Cabinet committee on climate change and energy security. Am I to understand that in a country where we aspire to develop a new economy based on science and innovation the Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation has not met at all since the Government was formed in June? Has the Cabinet committee on climate change and energy security of a Government which professes to being committed to dealing effectively with climate change met only once since the Government was formed in June?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Items are discussed at Cabinet committee if they cannot be discussed by the Government. The climate change strategy and issues surrounding climate change have been discussed at most meetings of the Government. The committee will carry forward its work but because it involves a new committee and a new agenda which is set out in the programme for Government it has been discussed at the Cabinet table and not at committee.

The Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation is to ensure that science, technology, development and innovation are conducive to maintaining our competitiveness and to build on it. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, normally reports to the Government on these issues. When the Cabinet committee meets it is normally to bring a science adviser and officials before the committee. Issues relevant to the brief of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, are discussed at full Cabinet. It is not necessary to have Cabinet committee meetings unless we are bringing in individuals who would not attend meetings of the Cabinet and there probably was not one. I recall going to several meetings but I cannot be sure it was since the summer. Since no date is listed in the reply I imagine it was not. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, certainly reports on these issues, particularly with regard to companies, new initiatives and new involvements and this is a weekly occurrence.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Taoiseach for telling us the frequency with which the committees are supposed to meet. We are five months into the life of the Government. It is surprising, to say the least, that the Cabinet committee which deals with the area of science and technology, with its importance for our economy, has not met since the Government was formed in June. It seems to indicate that the foot is off the pedal as far as the agenda for science, technology and innovation in the economy is concerned.

I am perplexed as to why the climate change committee has met on only one occasion. I appreciate what the Taoiseach said in regard to the Cabinet regularly discussing the issue of climate change but in view of the priority the programme for Government appeared to give to the issue and the fact that we are to have carbon budgeting for the first time this year, it is incredible that the committee established to address issues of detail by a Government which is supposedly committed to dealing with climate change has met only once. Who is responsible for the convening of that committee?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Gilmore either misunderstands or seems to misunderstand. The fact that the issue is being dealt with by the Cabinet instead of a sub-committee means that it is taking up more time and is given a higher priority. Rather than being addressed in a sub-committee comprising four or five Ministers, the issue is being addressed by the full Cabinet. That is what has been happening in respect of climate change and it is likely that it will continue to be addressed that way until the end of the year, even though a meeting will be held shortly to discuss certain issues. The crucial point is that it is being dealt with by the full Cabinet.

A different type of committee is involved in the area of science, technology and innovation. The committee is more technical in nature and includes the director of science and other individuals. It is not necessary for it to meet the Cabinet on a more regular basis. When it is required to report, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, reports for it.

The fact that matters are discussed by the Cabinet shows they receive higher priority and preference and more time than they would receive if they were dealt with by sub-committee.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was going to ask the Taoiseach whether any of the Cabinet sub-committees had dealt with the issue of ministerial pay but I suppose, under Cabinet confidentiality, we would be unable to find out.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is also dealt with by the full Cabinet.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The sub-committee on innovation might have dealt with the issue.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It dealt with Deputy Kenny's party leader's allowance at the same time.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Alongside his pension.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I did not know that and I do not see it anyway ——

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is like me but it will help his party.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——unlike some predecessors from various parties.

Does the Taoiseach chair the six committees or are they chaired by individual Ministers? What is the role of the sub-committee once it arrives at a decision? Does the decision go to the Cabinet as a recommendation from the sub-committee? If, for example, the Cabinet sub-committee on infrastructure discusses a bridge across the Corrib and reaches agreement, is that taken as a motion or proposal that eventually goes before the Cabinet for adoption by the relevant Minister as part of the Government programme?

A sub-committee was established to deal with the issue of Aer Lingus. On 17 May, the Taoiseach indicated it had finished its work and was concluded. Has that Cabinet sub-committee been wound up or is it still in existence? Could it, for example, consider the rumpus over Shannon and the Heathrow slots? I have an interest in deciphering the distinction between the State and the Government, in view of the fact that the Department of Transport was notified of the Aer Lingus decision whereas the Minister was not. Under business law, all shareholders in major companies should be informed of decisions that are imminent.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I chair most of the major Cabinet sub-committees, although not all of them. There are others that I did not mention but I have mentioned the main ones.

There are other Cabinet committees which meet from time to time, including the Cabinet committee on Northern Ireland. The Cabinet committee on security also meets from time to time to get security briefings or to deal with issues relevant to Northern Ireland. Those I already mentioned are the main ones, dealing with infrastructure, health, social exclusion and European affairs. They meet on a monthly basis and they usually have very extensive agendas. They do not deal with day to day issues but issues relevant to the Departments and agencies under their aegis. If an issue was moved from the Cabinet table for more comprehensive discussion by the committee, obviously the committee would report back to the Cabinet. That is the usual procedure. A lot of the other committees deal with more time-consuming issues. We spend several hours per week at Cabinet meetings where we tease out and follow through on issues. The committee on Aer Lingus was centred around the privatisation issue. That was its function and that function was completed. As Deputy Kenny will know from experience, other issues of a current nature come up at the weekly Cabinet meeting.