Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I move the following Supplementary Estimate:

Vote 41 — Office of the Minister for Children (Supplementary Estimate).

(I) Supplementary Estimate of the amount required in the year ending 31 December 2007 for the provision of certain services in respect of children, including miscellaneous grants — €42.2 million.

(II) Subheads under which this Vote will be accounted for by the Office of the Minister for Health and Children.

As the Minister for Health and Children with overall responsibility for the health group of Votes, I am seeking the approval of Dáil Éireann for a Supplementary Estimate of €42.2 million in respect of Vote 41 for the Office of the Minister for Children for the year ending 31 December 2007. I am pleased to inform the House that this additional requirement for Vote 41 will be fully offset by savings in Vote 39, the Office of the Minister for Health and Children, thereby ensuring that there will be no additional cost in 2007 to the Exchequer.

My Department has provided for Deputies background briefing on the Supplementary Estimate before them this evening. I propose that the Supplementary Estimate be approved to increase the provision for subheads A and B1 of Vote 41 to meet necessary expenditure commitments between now and the end of 2007. The gross additional spending requirement for these subheads is €53.3 million. However, this is reduced by savings of €6.3 million within other subheads of the Vote and further reduced by a buoyancy of €4.8 million in appropriations-in-aid. This results in a net requirement of €42.2 million.

Subhead A of Vote 41 provides for the early child care supplement. As Deputies will be aware, this is a payment made to parents of children aged under six years. It was introduced with effect from 1 April 2006 and is the responsibility of the Office of the Minister for Children. Eligibility for the payment is determined by the Department of Social and Family Affairs on the basis as entitlement to child benefit and that Department also administers the payments on behalf of the Office of the Minister for Children. The payments are made on a quarterly basis in arrears and amount to €1,000 per annum for each child aged under six years. A payment is also made for the quarter in which a child turns six years of age.

The supplement, together with increases in child benefit payments introduced by the Government in successive budgets, has improved the lot of families across society. The average family with two children under six years receives €5,840 in State supports per year. These supports are not means tested or taxable and are not dependent on whether a person is in employment. The Government wants to support parents in the choices they want to make about how they wish to raise their children, a hallmark of this Government's child care strategy.

As the early child care supplement is an entitlement for parents with children who qualify, it is a scheme based on the number of qualifying children aged under six years in any quarter and in a particular year. With the ongoing upward trend in population growth in recent years and continuing inward migration, the total amount of payments to be made in 2007 is expected to exceed the provision made in the Estimates by some €17 million. Therefore, while €406 million was provided in 2007 for the supplement, the actual expenditure is expected to arise is €423 million.

It is important to emphasis that the Government does not see child care in narrow terms. Parents make a variety of choices when it comes to their children's care. Some take time out of the workforce, some use childminders or friends and relatives and some use centre-based child care. It is not the role of the Government to tell parents which of these options is best for their children.

Rather it is our role to provide support towards the costs of appropriate choices made by parents. That is what this supplement does as a universal family benefit for parents of children under the age of six. Together with increased child benefit, the early child care supplement will greatly ease the financial burden on parents of younger children. For example, a family with three children under the age of six will receive direct financial support of over €8,800 in a full year. That is an increase of €7,300 since 1997. Even after inflation the supports to such families are nearly five times higher, in real terms, than they were in 1997.

Subhead B1 of Vote 41 provides for both capital and current funding under the Equal Opportunities Childcare Programme 2000-06, EOCP. The EOCP is an EU co-funded investment programme to develop a quality child care infrastructure. The programme commenced in January 2000 and will end in December this year. During the eight years of the programme it has had a total allocation of €499 million, of which €204.5 million was in respect of capital. By the end of 2006, €137 million had been spent on capital commitments under the programme. The 2007 Estimates allocation under this subhead was €113.346 million, which included a capital provision of €56.646 million. However, the level of capital commitments expected to be drawn down in 2007 is €93 million, giving rise to a capital overspend in this year of €36.3 million.

This shortfall arises from the sudden upward trend in 2006 and 2007 in the ratio of actual expenditure vis-À-vis commitments which could give rise to expenditure which had been entered into in the course of the eight-year programme. This trend was particularly evident in 2007, the final year of the programme. Capital expenditure under the programme was made in the form of grant aid to child care providers in both the community and private sectors to build and refurbish child care facilities to meet the needs of parents and their children for quality services. To date over 36,000 new child care places have been created under the programme and a further 26,000 additional places have been supported by it.

While private sector child care providers could apply for EOCP capital grant funding, the most significant expenditure was incurred in the large scale grant aid provided to community-based child care providers. Community groups could apply for funding of up to €1.4 million per project. Applications were approved in principle for funding and were then expected to finalise all the necessary steps to enter contract and proceed with building and draw-down of their grant. In addition to the significant scale of investment in this sector, the process of developing a project and bringing it through to the final stages of grant draw-down was generally lengthy for community based groups and, in some cases, was too problematic and some projects did not proceed.

Because of these factors and to maximise programme expenditure within the EU regulatory timeframes, a high rate of project approvals was made. In the closing stages of the programme, during 2006 and particularly in 2007, a significant number of projects are meeting the end of programme timeframes and, as a result, there is a very high level of grant draw-down in 2007, the final year of the programme. While this will result in an additional capital requirement in subhead B1 in 2007 of €36.3 million, the successful conclusion of these projects will ensure the achievement of the programme's targets and its success in developing a child care infrastructure.

The adoption of the EU co-funded equal opportunities child care programme and its inclusion in the National Development Plan 2000-2006 coincided with the identification of child care as an investment priority following the publication in 1999 of the Report of the Expert Working Group on Childcare.

I will spell out some of the achievements of the EOCP since 2000. Approximately €467 million has been spent on developing facilities, €198 million in capital and €269 million in current expenditure. Community and voluntary projects accounted for most of this spending. The total number of child care places receiving support under the programme, including more than 36,000 new places, is over 62,000 and nearly 3,000 child care employees are receiving support under the staffing grant scheme. A network of 33 city and county child care committees has been established and provides a local child care infrastructure which supports local providers and service users as well as supporting the child care programmes and providing accredited training. The types of services offered by grant beneficiaries include full day care crèches, pre-schools and playgroups, and after-school services.

Savings of €5 million arise under subhead B2, which provides funding for the national child care investment programme. The Minister with responsibility for children will respond to the debate. He was not in a position to move the Estimate because it must be moved by a Cabinet member.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We must consider two aspects to this motion on the Supplementary Estimate 2007, Vote 41, the early child care payment and the equal opportunities programme. The early child care supplement was announced by the Government in 2005 and was intended to help parents to meet the costs of child care in Ireland because everybody acknowledged that in this country child care was becoming a significant expense for parents, particularly those of young families who also had to deal with ever-rising house prices. It came into effect on 1 April 2006 and is a direct, non-taxable payment, to be paid at the end of each quarter for each child under the age of six who receives child benefit. The payment amounts to €250 per quarter, which is €1,000 per year for each eligible child.

Although the Department of Health and Children is responsible for the scheme, for convenience it is paid through the Department of Social and Family Affairs. For 2007 the total cost of the payment was expected to be €406 million. The Office of the Minister for Children calls for an additional €19 million because it did not anticipate the strong upward trend in population growth for children under the age of six and it will give a total of €425 million, although the Minister referred to €423 million.

We do not have the CSO figures for the number of births to date in 2007, but I read in the newspapers that we expect an 11% increase and that there will be 68,000 births this year. Given that the average birth rate has been 60,000 per annum in recent years, that means there are 368,000 children under the age of six, and at €1,000 each, that totals €368 million. Bearing in mind that this provision was brought in for children who live in the State regardless of their nationality, is the additional €57 million for children who reside outside the State? From the time of this announcement the Government was unaware of the implications of payment being linked to child benefit and therefore being available to children not living in Ireland. Given that the supplement was designed to meet the cost of child care in Ireland, a provision should have been introduced to ring-fence the money for child care in Ireland. This has not happened and apparently it will not be done.

There has been significant confusion about the cost of this scheme for children not resident in Ireland. During Leaders' Questions on 31 January 2006 the Taoiseach said the cost would be €1 million. A month later, in February, when responding to a parliamentary question, the Minister, Deputy Brennan, said the cost might be €2.7 million. On 26 April the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, said a cost of €10.8 million would have accrued by the end of 2006 while on 22 May the Minister, Deputy Brennan, said the cost could be up to €4 million. During Leaders' Questions on 23 May the Taoiseach said it could cost €9.5 million. There is total confusion and this does little to imbue us with confidence that if we vote for this supplement the money will go to where it should go. We do not know how much will go out of Ireland. At a time of cutbacks, this presents a significant difficulty for us.

We have no difficulty with the payment being made for all children under the age of six, regardless of nationality, who are resident in Ireland and whose families face increased costs, as opposed to children resident elsewhere, where the costs are much lower. How much of this €406 million and €19 million is for children not resident in Ireland? What checks are in place to ensure that fraud and illegitimate claims are not being made? It is hard enough to prevent it happening in this country so trying to prevent it happening across Europe will be extremely difficult.

The other part of this Estimate relates to the equal opportunities child care programme and provides for an increase of €36.3 million in capital funding. Fine Gael supports the provision of additional funding for the building, expansion or improvement of community-based private child care facilities but it is concerned about other provisions in the Estimate. The current child care subvention scheme under the equal opportunities child care programme targets support at community-based, not-for-profit child care providers, which were awarded grant aid towards staffing costs to allow them to charge parents limited fees for child care. This scheme was essentially designed as a back-to-work scheme and funding for it was continued to the end of 2007, no doubt because this was an election year.

Subsequent to the election, the Government announced a new scheme, the community child care subvention scheme, to support community child care services under the national child care investment programme. Whereas funding under the earlier scheme provided universal supports for all parents whose children attended not-for-profit crèches and child care services, the new scheme applies only to a limited category of parents. This means in practice that parents in receipt of social welfare payments or participating in community employment will benefit from a €80 weekly subvention in respect of full day care and parents in receipt of family income supplement will benefit from a €30 weekly subvention in respect of such care, both with pro rata reductions in respect of shorter service hours. A further subvention of €30 weekly will be paid for the subvented child where the child is under one year old.

Many parents in employment and not in receipt of social welfare will find themselves excluded under the new scheme from benefiting from subventions currently paid under the existing scheme, as will many parents in employment who are in receipt of modest earnings but do not qualify for family income supplement. As a result, many people will not be able to afford child care and might decide to leave the workforce to mind their children at home, causing many not-for-profit crèches to close and resulting in job losses and the loss of this vital community service. In Balbriggan, a town that is regularly in the news with regard to its lack of school places, a community voluntary group is in the process of applying for €1.3 million to provide a 37 place voluntary community crèche. The group is wondering if it will have enough customers for the crèche when the cutback in funding comes into force.

Those employed in community child care groups fear for the future of their jobs. Moreover, due to the uncertainty of their future income, groups at present providing services cannot recruit new employees with any contractual security as they do not know whether they will be able to pay future salaries from 1 July next. Although in theory the new scheme starts in 2008, the Department has provided for a transitional period up to 1 July 2008 which will be used to monitor and review its impact, on the basis of background information which has been sought from people who provide child care services under the existing scheme. Until 1 July 2008, the existing scheme will continue to apply for the purpose of providing subventions and, as a consequence, until that date no parent will be disadvantaged.

The widespread concern about the Government's proposed new scheme has been made clear to the Minister. Major changes must be made to it. The scheme is intended to become operational after 1 July 2008. I and my colleagues will vigorously pursue this issue.

Inaccurate forecasting and information have been a feature of this Government over the past ten years. We still do not have a final figure for what PPARS cost. Was it €180 million, €200 million or €220 million? The over 70s medical card scheme cost far more than was projected. The cost of the GMS medicine scheme over-runs every year. We do not know the cost of the nursing homes refund scheme. Only 3,600 claims have been completed, offers have been made in another 6,000 cases and another 20,000 claims have been made, with the potential of another 30,000. The work of this repayment scheme is due to be completed by next October. This is mind boggling. We were given two different answers in two days to questions about the cost of administering the scheme. We were told it would be €15 million by the HSE but another group informed us that it would be €23 million. It is unbelievable. The HSE over-runs by €220 million. It cannot count or supply enough school places.

The Government cannot count and when it gets things wrong, the public suffers. Nobody in the Government or the public service pays. The orthopaedic unit in Navan is closing for the month of December, with a resultant loss of 150 operations. In the past year Beaumont Hospital has lost 22,000 bed places because patients could not be placed in the community, where facilities were available. That is the equivalent of two 30 bed units being closed for the year. In Kenmare, a 14 bed unit was promised ten years ago but it has still not been provided. The accident and emergency departments at Tralee General Hospital and St. Vincent's Hospital are operating with half the required number of staff. Cancer services have been closed at 13 hospitals, while there are cutbacks at Sligo General Hospital and in Galway. The list is lengthy. Contrast this with pay hikes of 17% to 27% for the Ministers and HSE officials who were responsible for the PPARS debacle, as well as €4.8 million in unsanctioned expenditure last year. Along with the overruns of €220 million, it beggars belief.

We oppose this Estimate. We support the expansion of not-for-profit crèches in the community and the payment of the early child care supplement for children resident in Ireland, regardless of their nationality.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Jan O'Sullivan is sharing time with Deputy Penrose.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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This Estimate deals with two issues. The first is the €19 million underestimation of the cost of the payment for children under six years old. How did the Government get the figure so wrong? It is a considerable sum. The information on the number of children under six was available to the Government. I accept there was an increase in the number of births this year, but the Government should have had figures for the number of children already born when the Estimates were agreed. Perhaps the Minister will explain if the figure is wrong because the Government did not consider that this payment would be payable to people whose children are not living in this country.

However, I wish to focus on the second issue. The Minister has taken the wrong approach. Nobody disputes that this issue must be re-evaluated, that there must be value for money, as advised in the recommendations, and that there should be tiered payments in community child care provision. The Minister says there will be more money in the system, but how he will spend it is wrong. Parents who work part-time, are on family income supplement or are in any type of employment will be priced out of the community child care facilities. This is a disincentive to these parents to get employment.

One of the objectives of the original scheme, the equal opportunities child care programme, was to allow parents to access employment, education and training. People throughout the country have told us that they will not be able to afford to send their children to their community child care facility when they get employment. This is a particular difficulty for lone parents, whom we are trying to encourage into employment. This scheme is a clear disincentive. The charges will be such that people will simply be unable to afford them. The Minister must return to the drawing board on this issue.

The intentions of the scheme were that there would be an appropriately tiered system, whereby parents on high incomes would pay the appropriate rate. We have no problem with this. However, the low income, working families will be priced out of these facilities. That is the reason the Labour Party is so concerned about this Estimate. The Minister must return to the drawing board and produce a properly tiered system whereby low income, working parents can afford to send their children to not-for-profit community child care facilities. These facilities were intended to give opportunities to the very parents who will now be priced out of them.

This issue is also important for Government backbenchers, including the Acting Chairman, Deputy O'Connor. I am sure it affects Tallaght as well as other places. We have received representations from both urban and rural communities who believe this measure will close down their child care facilities. The purpose of the Supplementary Estimate for the capital grants, which we support, is to allow these child care facilities to build extra accommodation by availing of capital grants.

If they do this and parents can no longer afford to send their children there, then the capital grants will have been wasted. The point is to encourage lone parent families and other low income families to access work rather than stay on welfare but such families will be priced out of the crèche system so we believe the Minister of State is wrong on this matter. The funding could be used to create a genuinely tiered system that would encourage people to access employment while also being able to afford the good community child care facilities that exist all over the country. I hope the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Smith, goes back to the drawing board on this matter to develop an equitable system of access to community child care programmes. Otherwise facilities around the country will be forced to close because there will not be enough parents who can afford the full costs facing working parents. This matter of concern has been raised around the country.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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It is a pity the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, did not get an opportunity to extol the virtues and highlight the achievements of the Equal Opportunities Childcare Programme 2000-2006. I am one of the few people here who knows these achievements first hand because I am director of a non-profit community child care organisation, a representative of the Westmeath child care committee and I was also on the National Economic and Social Forum on child care provision.

I also know that the course of action in question here was not recommended in the review that took place. This is a daft idea that will sound the death knell of community child care provision throughout the country and I do not know from where it emanated. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Smith, listens to people so I know this idea could not have originated from him. He is too worldly wise and has a political antenna for such things. There are over 70 Fianna Fáil parliamentarians, not confined to rural areas, including Deputies Chris Andrews and Charlie O'Connor, who know this will sound the death knell of community child care provision.

I do not see where this idea emanated from as the existing equal opportunities childcare programme is excellent and benefited 62,000 children through 33 city and county child care providers. This change could destroy villages and there has been an eruption against it that crosses the urban-rural divide. Only four weeks ago the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Smith, opened the Little Blessings child care facility in my village of Ballynacargy that will provide for up to 50 people. I thank the Minister of State for visiting and for his words but I indicated to him that something was coming that could derail the process of child care provision.

The existing child care provisions give affordable, quality child care because the Health Service Executive is involved, public health nurses visit and environmental health officers visit. I have been a director of the child care facility in Ballynacargy for some years and no child was ever denied access. There is already a tiered structure in place in Ballynacargy and this is the case with child care providers throughout the country in places such as Kinnegad, Kenagh, Abbeylara and Kilbeggan. Providers of not-for-profit child care in this country had their antennae up because they had already implemented a tiered structure.

The structure the Minister for State has proposed will perpetuate a dependency culture wherein people will avoid employment for fear of losing their subventions. This is nonsense because the best route out of poverty is employment and I argued this as social welfare spokesman for the Labour Party. In Ballynacargy lone parents can leave their children in the child care facility and go to pursue computer courses and so on to gain experience for work. However, the proposed changes mean that as soon as a person enters employment he or she will lose his or her subvention. This is the antithesis of progressive thinking and I cannot believe it emanates from a Government in which even a single Fianna Fáil brain cell operates.

My colleague, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is on top of this matter and I am sure that Deputy Mary O'Rourke will also refer to it. Little Blessings has been serving the rural village of Ballynacargy and surrounding communities since 1989 and it has a staffing grant of €82,000. Thankfully, the Department of Health and Children gave €420,000 in capital grants and it receives some other grants. Average income is €1,500 per week while child care for the unemployed is €25 to €30 and between €60 and €70 for the employed. The facility will face a shortfall of €75,000 next July because the alternative is to ask those paying between €60 and €70 to pay €160 and this will be the end of the centre. In other words a child care centre opened by the Minister of State a month ago will be closed by him next July when he will attend the funeral wearing a black armband.

For the facility in Ballynacargy to stay open fees will have to be doubled or it will revert back to being a playschool providing 20 places on a morning session with two members of staff. At the moment there are ten excellent members of staff there who trained themselves and got the necessary certifications. The wage bill is between €2,500 and €3,000 and it looks as though the members of staff may have to go. With a staffing grant, however, we can employ them and guarantee continuity of employment. The members of staff receive only the minimum wage, yet they do their jobs to the highest level with the assurance of certification. Are we to tell them that eight or nine must go because we cannot guarantee their wages? The Government is going to emasculate an area of policy that was excellent.

The current staffing grant is €82,000, the current income is €72,000 and the current food grant €11,000 so the total is €165,000. Under the proposed subvention allowance the facility will receive only €9,984. Added to income of €72,000 and a food grant of €19,000, it is clear the effect that will ensue; there will be a deficit of €72,000. The Minister of State is going to close the facility in Ballynacargy and every community child care facility in the country. I ask that he rethinks these changes because the facilities we now have were too hard won over the past six years. I am disappointed that anyone in Fianna Fáil would deprive people of something they have grown used to providing access to employment over the past six years. Are we to destroy all this in one fell swoop? I ask the Minister of State to go back to his officials and tell them to rethink because they are wrong on this issue and it is important it be evaluated now.

Mary O'Rourke (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot promise to be as invigorated as Deputy Penrose but I echo everything he has said. I was at the opening of Little Blessings at which the Minister of State officiated and I thank him because he has agreed to meet a deputation, including Deputy Penrose and I, in Athlone next Monday.

The point missed in all of this is that many community, not-for-profit child care facilities already operated an informal tiered system before this grant idea was cooked up, or cocked up, in the Department. I speak as a person with five grandchildren, all of whom are under five and in very expensive private child care facilities. The money involved, after tax, is enormous. However, my bewailing this fact does not detract from the case I am putting forward and I suggest to the Minister of State, Deputy Smith, that the reason this issue has not burst into the public domain is that people are lulled by the idea of July 2008 being a long time away. It is not, however, because the process of limbering up for these changes is continuing.

I am sure the Minister of State is motivated by the purest of principles, attention to disadvantage, and nobody could decry this as a general principle. However, the income of some people gained through employment is so low that they may only just be able to afford the fee charged by the community not-for-profit child care facility. The Minister of State should ignore the boyos who say he is dead right and disparage women who want to work. I know there are boyos who will tell the Minister that — I have heard some of them from two of the parties in this House. I have heard them speak about women going out to earn money and suggesting they should be staying at home minding their children. It is an economic tenet of the Government to encourage women to go out and be part of the economic activity of their village, town or neighbourhood.

Whether a facility is in Ballymahon, Athlone, Ballynacargy, Abbeylara or Granard, each of them is as much a part of the economic revival that has taken place in this country as other enterprises. The reason is they ensure that women or men, whoever is the guardian of the children, can go to work in peace and comfort, knowing their children are being looked after properly and professionally. That is what is happening. When I saw the Estimate was on the agenda, I took the opportunity to come and say this to the Minister with responsibility for children.

I agree the special payment for people with children is wonderful and that anybody with three children under the age of six will get almost €9,000 per year in payments. That is a good sum of money and it is available, regardless of status. I praise the Government for introducing that provision. I approve of the way the system has developed. Private child care is available for those who want it, but the cost is significant. Community child care is available for those who want it, but it is a tiered system. However, it allows men or women who had no chance of taking up employment to do so. My plea to the Minister is to rethink the proposal to end the programme. I know what he faces because I was done and roasted once early in my time in the Department of Health and Children, until I got sense. No matter what officials say, I urge the Minister of State not to get roasted on this issue, and roasted he will be if this goes ahead.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I concur with Deputy O'Rourke. This is a monumental cock-up. The sooner the Government reverses this outrageous decision, the better. Many of those who have spoken have serious concerns. In the few years before the general election, Deputies attended many openings of child care facilities. As a politician, I welcomed the funding and advances we had made in the area. Now, however, many parents are concerned they will not be able to afford the higher child care charges and that, eventually, they will not be able to continue in employment.

What has occurred is like a three card trick. Before the election the Government was throwing money at it and it was a great party, but now the election is over it says the coffers are empty and it must pull back. However, it is a serious situation, not a joke. Parents, young children and workers in these child care facilities are in fear of their future and the future of child care. There is widespread concern that the Government does not fully understand the consequences of its action. This was outlined by Deputy O'Rourke.

Community child care is provided in every town and village in the country and this provides opportunities to people. However, local authorities throughout the country have now started to impose rates on these facilities. In a small village in my county of Roscommon, a not-for-profit child care facility has been billed for rates of €11,000. What does this mean for people? This is not affordable child care. People are being hit by the levies and they are being hit by local authority rates imposed because the authorities claim they are not getting funding from central government. I cannot understand the talk that goes on about never having it so good. We never had it so bad. I wonder what is in the budget. I urge the Government to reverse the cock-up and get it right because too many parents, children and people working in child care facilities are in fear for their jobs or child care places.

When the Supplementary Estimate was introduced, we thought it was designed to meet the cost of child care. A special provision could have been introduced to ring fence money for child care, but this did not happen. Four months ago, I met parents from Drumshanbo whose children were in not-for-profit child care. They highlighted their concerns to me then. I did not know at the time this provision was to be introduced and I told them I did not believe any Government would introduce it. Clearly, it is the civil servants in the Department that run matters when it suits the Government. Somebody must take responsibility for what is happening. Let them stand up and be counted. We need strong leadership and government in this regard. When the Government was doing it right, I warmly welcomed the provisions. Now that it is doing it wrong, it is my duty to stand up and take it to task. I take no pleasure in doing so.

In the context of cutbacks and the fact that this is a departmental motion, I wish to raise other health area cutbacks, such as the reduction of the breast cancer services at Sligo General Hospital and the loss of the four consultants and 13 nurses there. Why were interviews for 200 middle management posts in the health service conducted in a Sligo hotel? I was at a meeting and march last Thursday in Sligo which was attended by 2,000 angry people who cannot believe the Minister of State has let them down again. The Department also intends to axe 24-hour emergency cover in Roscommon County Hospital as part of a review of the service there. The consultant surgeons there agree this will degrade the services in the hospital.

Three years ago the Fianna Fáil Party went to Inchydoney. There they walked up and down the beach and were converted. They must do the same again this Christmas. They should not go away on five weeks' holidays, but go to Inchydoney and do what is right for the people. Do what is right for child care, for the health services and what is right for Roscommon and Sligo hospitals and all hospitals in the country.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As we speak, hundreds of community facilities, providing child care services to thousands of families, are extremely concerned at the Government's plans to end the equal opportunities childcare programme and replace it with the new community child care subvention scheme. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to meet the Minister of State, Deputy Brendan Smith, on this matter and I thank him for that opportunity. That meeting was attended by representatives of community child care providers in County Monaghan and all expressed their serious concerns at what lies ahead for child care in the State if the community child care subvention scheme is implemented in its current form and timetable for implementation. That concern is echoed throughout the 26 counties, as evidenced by contributions of other speakers.

Nobody disagrees with the stated intent of the scheme, which is to make child care more accessible for low income parents. Far too many families still cannot gain access to child care due to lack of affordability. This has serious consequences for children and for parents who wish to improve the lives of their families through part-time or full-time employment. The equal opportunities child care programme addressed the need to some extent, but it did not provide, nor was it intended to provide, a comprehensive, universal system of child care. Such a system is the one favoured by Sinn Féin and we detailed our proposals in a Private Members' motion in the last Dáil and in pre-budget submissions to the Minister for Finance.

This Supplementary Estimate will probably be the last bloc of funding for the equal opportunities child care programme. Funding for grant recipients will continue into the first six months of next year during the proposed change-over from the EOCP to the new subvention scheme. Therefore we are at a crucial point and we must use this opportunity as a matter of urgency to press the Minister and his colleagues in the Department to reconsider the new scheme in its present form. I urge him to suspend its introduction pending an essential review, comprehensive consultation and necessary changes.

The new scheme requires community child care operators to work a complex, tiered fee system according to the income of service users. Community-based child care workers will be asked to process social welfare information about friends and neighbours. The new scheme will require a lot more administration and bureaucracy, which small community-run facilities will find difficult.

Under the new scheme, community child care providers will receive subventions to enable reduced fees to be charged to disadvantaged parents, but these parents must be in receipt of social welfare payments. Clearly, therefore, we are not really addressing the matter on the basis of need. Many families using community child care facilities are on low incomes but do not receive social welfare payments. Yet receipt of such payments is now to be a requirement to qualify for the new subvention scheme. Without a sufficient number of welfare recipients on their books community crèches will be forced to close altogether or raise fees for those not qualifying for the subvention. Thus low-income families and many more in already stretched circumstances — that rises way up the income ladder in today's Ireland — could actually be forced to pay more. This makes a nonsense of the claim that the new scheme will be better for the disadvantaged. I warrant that it will not be so.

There are genuine fears that the new scheme will also lead to division between welfare recipients and other service users. We could end up with a two-tier child care system mirroring our two-tier health system. The facilities under threat are community-based and community-run. Many people give time voluntarily to sustain them. In many cases EOCP staffing grants are insufficient to cover all staffing needs, which are supplemented by voluntary effort. It would be shameful if an ill-thought-out scheme undermined the voluntary child care infrastructure which has been built from the ground up in recent years.

Will the Minister agree to suspend the introduction of the new scheme while extending the EOCP method of payment in the meantime, pending full consultation with the community child care sector? No other answer will meet the current needs.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I support any additional funding for the improvement of community-based and private child care facilities. As regards the new child care subvention scheme, however, there are a number of problems which the Minister needs to address urgently regarding community child care. I am deeply concerned by the number of people who have contacted me in recent weeks, including parents, grandparents and workers in the schemes in my constituency. I have grave reservations about the impact this new scheme will have on communities and parents, and particularly on young children attending community crèches. For many young mothers the community crèche is a lifeline providing a safe environment for their children where they can mix with other children from all social backgrounds. It is also an opportunity for parents to return to education or work while their children are being cared for in a safe and familiar environment.

Under the new scheme, parents will have to deal with red tape and apply for funding directly. This is putting obstacles in the way of many parents, some of whom will not be able to deal with the forms and other bureaucracy within the new system, thus losing out on their entitlements.

The new scheme will only apply to a limited number of parents. Many parents who are not on social welfare and do not qualify for the family income supplement but who have a limited income will find that they will not qualify for any funding. The reality is that some parents will have to give up their part-time jobs. We will end up with crèches that are only attended by children of parents on social welfare, which will stigmatise young children through no fault of their own. I cannot see how this is in the best interests of our children or of society generally.

If the Government really believes in equal opportunity, the Minister for Health and Children should realise that the new subvention scheme will only serve to isolate children because of their family circumstances. The aim should be to ensure that Government funding reaches those people who need it most. We need to balance the scales and ensure that every child will benefit from Government funding. No child should lose out because of his or her social background. I urge the Minister to reconsider this scheme.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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In accordance with an order of this day, the Minister of State will take questions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, when Private Members' business must commence. Does Deputy Reilly have some questions?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Minister of State questions earlier so perhaps he will be good enough to answer them now.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have notes of Deputy Reilly's questions so may I respond to them?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will call Deputy Ó Caoláin first.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask two specific questions in addition to those I have already put to the Minister of State. Will he advise us whether the 2 November deadline for the receipt of applications under the new scheme will be strictly enforced? As he is aware, this can place an excessive burden on small community child care services that operate with few staff. There is some indication of a little freeing up in that regard, but it merits a proper response here.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind the Deputy that only 15 minutes are allowed for this part of the debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister of State acknowledge the danger that the implementation of this new scheme could lead to fees being increased significantly for those not on social welfare? The consequences could include forcing people on tight incomes out of the workplace, thus having to reorganise totally their family circumstances. This could result in a loss of access to child care and the loss of facilities as a result of the withdrawal of numbers. That is the scenario we want to avoid.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will deal with Deputy Ó Caoláin's last question first. I have indicated in Adjournment debates and in discussions with my Oireachtas colleagues that 2 November is not an absolute deadline, but we do not want this matter going on. We want to have the information in as soon as possible because the Department is anxious to analyse the material from different community groups around the country as early as possible in November. We want to get approval out in respect of the first half year's payments next year to the various groups as quickly as possible. We will still be accepting data after 2 November. We do not want the message to go out from this House that it will do sometime, because it will not. It is in the interests of the groups themselves to get the data in.

Deputy Byrne mentioned the detailed forms involved, but individuals have only to tick off whether they are in receipt of certain payments, or are in education or training.

Deputy Ó Caoláin indicated earlier that there would be a huge workload on each group, given the bureaucracy involved. The groups will be in receipt of the form to return to the Department but will not be obliged to process it as this will be done by departmental officials.

Deputy Reilly had a number of actuarial questions concerning the early child care supplement. The original Estimate for the full-year cost of the early child care supplement, which would arise in 2007, based on the position as of December 2005 when it was announced, was €353 million. This was based on the number of children under six years in respect of which child benefit was being paid. In conjunction with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which administers the payment on behalf of my office, an administrative decision was taken to pay the supplement in respect of all children who qualify during a quarter, as opposed to paying it only where children qualify for all of the period. As a result, the payment is made in respect of all children qualified on the last day of the quarter plus all those who turned six or otherwise ceased to be eligible at some point. The effect is that 25 payments, as opposed to 24, are made for each child — we are being a little extra generous — which increased the total cost per annum by just over 4%. The decision was taken to pay from birth rather than from the first full period following birth, as in the case of multi-child benefit payment, as otherwise some parents would not get a payment until the child was nearly six months old.

Deputy Reilly asked why foreign nationals are paid the early child care supplement. The supplement is a family benefit as defined in EU law and therefore is co-ordinated by EU regulations, most notably Regulation EEC/1408 of 1971. This regulation was passed to give effect to the right of workers to move freely around what was then the European Economic Community, without fear of losing their rights to benefits. At that time we were a beneficiary and would not have been paying out.

Deputy Reilly also questioned the rate of increase, as did Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. The rate of increase in the early child care supplement has been driven by two factors, the increasing birth rate and the arrival of migrants with children. It has been consistent since the introduction of the payment in April 2006. While it is difficult to establish a definitive pattern it appears that the significant growth in 2006 and 2007 may be reaching a plateau, possibly linked to a slowdown in inward migration.

I do not have the note that I had earlier but my recollection is that the number of non-resident children on payment for the early child care supplement amounts to approximately 1,150, half of whom are resident in Britain or the Six Counties, the part of my province which is outside our jurisdiction. That payment amounts to approximately €1.1 million for 2007 and the projected cost of that element of the scheme is €2 million for 2008 for non-resident EU citizens. It is a relatively small sum.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask the reason, I said that the scheme was to address the rising cost of child care which was prohibitively high at the time. Why was it not ring-fenced within the country? The mistake was to link it to child benefit. That money is going out of the country. I find it difficult to believe that only 1,100 people are involved. There are 60,000 births per annum which amounts to 300,000 over five years. If one adds 68,000 for this year because of the 11% increase, it comes to 368,000 and the sum is €420 million. Where has the extra €57 million gone? I do not understand that.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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How does the Minister of State expect parents on family income supplement to be able to pay the balance they will be expected to pay in community child care crèches? Crèches will receive only €30 per week for a parent on the family income supplement. Presumably a parent on that low income must find the rest of the money. How are parents on the family income supplement, and those just above that level who must pay the whole sum, supposed to be able to pay this money?

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of State aware that local authorities are levying many of these affordable child care facilities and other child care facilities with rates amounting in one case to €11,000? If this continues it will deal a death blow to child care. What does the Minister of State intend to do about it? Will he talk to his counterpart in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ensure that these levies will be stopped because they are a cause of concern around the country?

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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It could be argued that the subvention is being introduced backwards. The highest rate is for those on social welfare. This will act as a disincentive to taking up a job because when one does that one loses the subvention. Why did the Minister of State not consult the community and not-for-profit sector? Where is the commitment to the volunteers who gave their time, and still do so, to find sites, apply for funding, fundraise on the streets, fill in the forms and become employers? What help will they get? How will working families on the margins, who are not entitled to any form of State support access, afford child care?

The Minister of State set up meetings around the country in September and October to brief community child care providers on the subvention scheme. Many of them indicated that it is not operable and that child care centres will close. Will the Minister of State say honestly what feedback he received from the staff who attended those meetings? People were outraged. Is that not enough to tell the Minister of State who has political antennae better than any in Cavan-Monaghan to put this on the backburner, re-evaluate it and let us go forward together?

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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What consultation was held with community groups and other child care providers? The people who contacted me said there was no consultation.

I have seen the form and have been present when people have tried to complete it. Anyone who has difficulty reading or writing finds the form complicated. I urge the Minister of State to reconsider this scheme before it goes further.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister of State not accept that this scheme, like the medical card scheme, with its ludicrously low income threshold of just over half the minimum wage, will cause people to stay away from work? Will he not abandon the income limit changes for at least one year to allow for a full debate and to put in place a fairer system?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Ceann Comhairle must be pleased to see that the equal opportunities childcare programme, which he introduced some years ago as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has been acclaimed on all sides of the House. I have been in the House many times when people on the Opposition were less fulsome in their praise of that programme. I am glad that they now realise its value and the great contribution it has made. The programme was an outstanding success and exceeded its target for the provision of child care places by 18%.

There has been misrepresentation and many genuine concerns were expressed, which I appreciate. I am out and about like everybody else and not just in my counties of Cavan and Monaghan. I will not hide behind officials as some people in the House indicate we should when we make decisions. I do not do that, I stand up for myself and do my best.

People legitimately ask about consultation. There was consultation. Questionnaires were circulated to all the county child care committees as part of the value for money review. There was also verbal contact with some groups. Others participated in a working group which represented national bodies. When we announced this scheme last July I indicated that we would have a transition period of 12 months because we could foresee that there might be some difficulties. In my initial responses to the media I said that we wanted to get as much data as possible on the existing staffing scheme. Some Deputies said tonight that groups did not know they had to introduce a tiered payment system. They did know that. It was one of the conditions for a staffing grant.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It was not a rigid one like this.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Penrose rightly pointed out the success of the Ballynacargy one. I was there.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We did it.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, the centre did, but unfortunately that is not uniform practice throughout the country. I want to have the data in the office for analysis. We organised regional seminars to ensure that the officials could outline the proposed scheme, saying that we sought the feedback of the practitioners, whether participants, managers or people in representative bodies. We said we wanted the data and some groups were hostile to this request. I and my officials insisted that we had to have all the data because we wanted, if necessary, to amend the scheme based on up-to-date data. The best decisions are made when the most up-to-date data are available.

Some groups complained to me that the cost of some community child care facilities is prohibitive for people from disadvantaged homes. I want to ensure that nobody will be denied places in a child care facility.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Why does the Minister of State not raise the rate?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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People who can afford to pay for places must pay. We must have a tiered payment system. It is our business to ensure that child care is available throughout rural parishes, towns and villages. The equal opportunities childcare programme has been phenomenally successful.

The funding available to the Department next year for the child care subvention scheme, as part of the overall national child care investment programme, represents a 16% increase on what is available this year. Some people have said mischievously and some due to misinformation that we were abolishing the staffing grant scheme, but nothing could be further from the truth. We introduced a transition period to ensure that if there were emerging difficulties we would deal with them. We want to deal with them. We want to ensure that the €500 million that has been invested in child care since the Ceann Comhairle introduced the equal opportunities childcare programme is protected. We want to ensure that the €575 million that has been ring-fenced for the next few years contributes to enhanced child care in our country.

Deputy Feighan spoke about projects that were opened and approved in advance of the election. Will he tell me what projects in his constituency he would not have approved?

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I welcomed those projects.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome that.