Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the costs which have accrued to date to his Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16814/07]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the costs to his Department to date of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18787/07]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the costs accrued to date to his Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20158/07]

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

The total cost incurred by my Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal from 1997 to 30 September 2007 was €29,748,614. This includes fees paid to counsel for the tribunal and administration costs incurred since the establishment of the tribunal. The total payment made to the legal team was €23,122,989 to 30 September 2007.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When is the Moriarty tribunal expected to conclude? It has been running for a very long time.

I note that a prominent businessman is seeking to restrict the chairman of the tribunal in the types of conclusions he can make in his pending report. The outcome of that challenge will affect the reports of all tribunals, including the Mahon tribunal which is inquiring into other matters relevant to the Taoiseach.

Mr. Justice Moriarty's second report will concentrate on payments to the former Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry. When is that report expected and when will the tribunal conclude its work? Has the Taoiseach appointed anybody from his Department to liaise with the Mahon and Moriarty tribunals, given that both are dealing with relevant matters?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A significant body of work has been completed by the Moriarty tribunal with the publication last year of the first part of its report. While I am not privy to the day-to-day arrangements of the tribunal, I understand it should be able to commence preparation of its report in a matter of weeks. It is not possible, however, to indicate when the second part of its report will be finalised. My officials tell me it is hoped it will be completed within a matter of months. Recent media reports about possible further court challenges have not been substantiated by the tribunal which, as I am sure the Deputy will appreciate, is obliged to follow through on its inquiries. The chairman is anxious to conclude his work with all possible speed. I am also conscious of the ever-present potential for litigation that might impact on the timeline. This tribunal will not issue a report but my Department handles the fees and the accounts so there is liaison in that area. However, we have no involvement with the Mahon tribunal.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach have a view on whether the chairman should be restricted in the range of findings he might well give? A court case is pending on that but does the Taoiseach have a view on whether he should be restricted with regard to conclusions at which he might arrive? As the outcome of that case will affect the findings of all tribunals, including the Mahon tribunal, and I am aware the Taoiseach referred to this matter in previous questions, have the documents relating to the Battle of the Boyne site been forwarded to the tribunal for analysis?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputy Kenny that the Taoiseach is only responsible in so far as he facilitates the budget from his Vote.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There have been several cases in the past decade relating to the tribunals and it is irrelevant whether I have a view. I have not made any submissions and am not privy to the submissions that have been made so I do not know what they contain. To the best of my knowledge all the files and records relating to the Battle of the Boyne were handed over to the tribunal in 1998 or 1999.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In a fortnight we will reach the tenth anniversary of the first sitting of the Moriarty tribunal, which was 31 October 1997. During those ten years various dates were given for the expected conclusion of its business. Has the Taoiseach any idea when the Moriarty tribunal will wrap up and present its final reports? Surely, given the passage of ten years, that is something which can now be indicated.

On the subject of another tribunal, but nevertheless relevant to this question, earlier this year a team of representatives from the Mahon tribunal, the office of the Attorney General, the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government was established to examine the costs of the Mahon tribunal. Can the Taoiseach say if that report was presented to Government, as I assume it was? Did the findings of that team and its appraisal of costs have implications for the current and future costs of the Moriarty tribunal?

The Taoiseach will be aware that some people under investigation by the Moriarty tribunal are major tax avoiders who continue to avoid paying their fair contribution to the Exchequer through loopholes in the tax system. Some are applauded in the media and in other ways for their charitable work but they continue to refuse to pay money to the Exchequer in the form of taxes to provide for the essential services on which all of us depend in one way or another.

Taking the lessons from all the tribunals, and specifically with reference to the Moriarty tribunal, does the Taoiseach not believe legislation is now necessary to address the various abuses and means of avoidance employed by some whose status as non-resident is highly questionable at the best of times? Arising from the work of the Moriarty tribunal, should legislation be brought before the House to address these important matters?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin raised a number of questions. Obviously, recommendations from all tribunals, including the Moriarty tribunal, are followed up. The Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance constantly examine areas of tax evasion and avoidance. They do this every year and in some years compile more detailed reports. The Deputy raised the question of tax avoidance. The Revenue Commissioners continually look at procedures which provide opportunities for this. Many tax shelters and reliefs have been closed off because it was felt they had served their purposes. The Deputy mentioned certain others.

The Deputy referred to the report on the Mahon tribunal made earlier this year. The figures for legal costs or third party legal costs given by me or my colleagues are the current tribunal costs. Until a tribunal has finished its work, the issue of third party costs does not arise. Those figures are for another day. The estimated cost of the Moriarty tribunal for 2007 in my Department is €10 million. Included in that estimate is the cost of publication of the report, some element of the award of legal costs, as well as administrative and legal costs. We do not know and are not in a position to estimate third party costs. In the case of the Moriarty tribunal, these matters will begin to be dealt with in the new year if the tribunal concludes in a matter of months, as I hope it will. The matter of third party costs must then go through a lengthy procedure which I am sure will continue on for a considerable time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has given no indication of when he expects the Moriarty process to conclude. I remind him that we are almost at the tenth anniversary of its first sitting. Can he shed any light on this area? What was the outcome of the review carried out earlier this year by the team appointed? Could the team's recommendations regarding costs in the Mahon tribunal be applied to current and future tribunals? In the light of his knowledge of the tribunals, does the Taoiseach believe legislation should be introduced to deal with appropriate matters highlighted by the various tribunals?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Approximately ten tribunals have been established in recent years. Recommendations by any of them are fully dealt with. The matters of tax shelters and reliefs and tax avoidance and evasion are constantly under review by the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners.

I understand it is the intention of Mr. Justice Moriarty to finish as quickly as he possibly can, subject to the procedures he is required to follow in his final report. The matter of third party fees will then be dealt with. I understand Mr. Justice Moriarty and his staff are anxious to finish their work in a matter of months.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As I understand it, the figure given by the Taoiseach in respect of the total cost to date of the Moriarty tribunal, which is almost €30 million, is in respect of administration of the tribunal and the legal fees paid to the tribunal's lawyers. Does his Department have a ballpark figure for what will be the likely cost, including third party costs, that may be made by the tribunal to those who appeared before it and, presumably, co-operated with it?

The Taoiseach and those speaking on his behalf have on a number of occasions criticised the legal fees and costs of tribunals. I note an increase in recent times in the Taoiseach's criticism in this regard. As I understand it, the legal fees were set and agreed by Government. In 2004, the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, announced at a Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that fees for tribunals were to be cut. He described these fees as astronomical and said it was a gravy train that had gone on long enough. We were promised in summer 2004 that the legal fees would be cut. We were again promised the fees would be cut from September 2006. We were then promised a cut in fees in respect of the Mahon tribunal from March 2007. On each occasion those deadlines arose, the Government bottled it and failed to reduce the legal fees. When is it intended to reduce legal fees for tribunals in line with what was announced previously, or is it ever intended to reduce the legal fees for tribunals?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore said I commented on or criticised the fees, but I do not believe I mentioned them since I last answered questions on the matter here. I made no reference to them whatsoever and the Deputy is incorrect in that regard.

The new rates have been applied in respect of a number of tribunals. The former Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, had agreed with the tribunals and the then Attorney General on dates for the application of the new rates. A number of them took effect and there have been a number of new examinations since then. Of the two tribunals that have been running for ten years, in the Moriarty tribunal, now the Mahon tribunal, people were employed on the basis of a particular fee rate. It was extended on the basis of that understanding. The dates for completion of both tribunals have been changed — the Moriarty tribunal was due to finish last Christmas or last January. Others have also been extended and for that reason they were allowed to stick with the current rates. The Moriarty tribunal, which is the only tribunal with which I am dealing, is due to finish in a matter of months and therefore it should be allowed to continue with the current rates until its work has been completed.

The set fee to be paid under the new rates will be based on the current annual salary of a High Court judge plus 20% in respect of pension contribution with related payments being made to other legal staff, including barristers and solicitors. The specific annual remuneration packages at the rates applicable in 2005 were, for senior counsel, €1,008 per day and, for junior counsel, €672 per day, which is two thirds of the senior counsel rate. There was also a rate for solicitors and others. That is the 2005 rate, not the current rate, which is approximately 40% of the maximum current rates paid to the tribunal counsel. These rates have been brought in for other tribunals for some of the new examinations that have been taking place under the new tribunal legislation, but the old rates were left for the teams that were in place on the basis they had been on those rates for several years. That position is always under review, but in the Moriarty tribunal, the one I am dealing with, the consideration is that the existing rates will be allowed to be applicable until the end of its work on the basis this is only some months off.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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To what tribunals do the new rates apply? What are the current daily rates at the Moriarty tribunal?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the full list of rates for tribunals. The MacEntee tribunal which has just concluded and which was set up under the commission legislation, worked on the new rates, as did the tribunal dealing with the Buchanan case in Northern Ireland and a number of others.

I do not have the current daily rates for the Moriarty tribunal, I just have——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Turn it upside down.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——the charts. I know how much is being paid to each individual per annum. I do not have the rates but I can give Deputy Gilmore the current figures. The rate is 40% of the 2005 rate. In 2005, the rate was €1,008 a day, so the Deputy can work that out.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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What is the ballpark figure for the total cost, when the third party costs are calculated? Will the Taoiseach give us the figure because the percentages will confuse us all?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps if I give the Deputy the ballpark figure, it will confuse him more.

Frankly, I am not prepared to speculate. I have heard all types of figures. I just do not know.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach have any figures on which to go?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The only figure I have in my Estimate is €10 million, but in the words of——

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is that just for this year?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the figure. When that figure was published in the Book of Estimates, an individual who rang my Department said he assumed it was for him.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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And it probably was.