Dáil debates

Tuesday, 9 October 2007

2:30 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One of the major challenges facing this country is the ability to deal with the disconnect between Crime Ireland and the Ireland of the law abiding citizen. Jessica Ward is four years of age today and, like any child, she would love above all to have her Dad present on her birthday. That cannot be, however, because somebody shot him dead last weekend. Unfortunately, Edward Ward is not the most recent victim of gangland crime. Last night, Gary Grant was shot dead yards from his home.

In Dublin last month, there was the gunning down in broad daylight of Garda Sherlock. Brian Downes was murdered at the weekend. Whenever one switches on the television or radio news these days, the first five or six items relate to gangland crime. People are being shot — many of them shot dead — on the streets, shots are fired into houses and innocent people find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. We remember Donna Cleary's death and the expressed wisdom of the Government that she was an innocent person in the wrong place. So too was young Anthony Campbell, shot dead because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. How many more Anthony Campbells, Edward Wards, Donna Clearys and Garda Sherlocks will there be?

Ten years ago, 38 murders were recorded for the year. These were murders rather than gangland hits. Of those 38 murders, 34 were solved, giving a detection rate of 90%. Ten years later, the detection rate for gun crime is 16%. So far this year, 14 gangland killings have occurred and firearms offences have rocketed by 600%. However, the detection rate for firearms offences has reduced from 75% in 1998 to 37% last year. Conviction rates are also decreasing. The question needs to be asked: "Who is in charge of our streets, Taoiseach? Is it the Government or the gunmen?

The Fine Gael Party will support Government measures to deal with gangland crime and crime in general. Why would we not? It is in all our interests to do so. Perhaps the Taoiseach will tell the House, following his meetings with the Garda Síochána and other persons involved in this area, what increased action will be taken by Government? We have been told the CAB will receive increased resources and facilities to enable it to do its job. Please explain in simple English what this means? How many officers and extra resources in terms of Garda vehicles, radio equipment and weapons for those who carry them and so on will be provided? What does the Taoiseach mean when he says the CAB will be given extra resources? What does this mean for the woman who spoke at the public meeting in Neilstown of her daughter having to pass through a team of drug pushers on the street corner on her way to school on Monday mornings? Will these people be arrested? Is this what the Taoiseach means when he says CAB officers will move down from the higher level operators? Will the Taoiseach explain, in plain English, what will happen?

I understand cocaine parties are now the rage at locations around the country. These parties are attended not by those impoverished on the streets but by those very much removed from that scene. Are we to see that issue tackled by the CAB as well?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The killings in Dublin last Friday and in Limerick last night were appalling. I agree with what Deputy Kenny said and wish to again highlight the threat we face from members of armed gangs who have no regard for human life and who, by extension, shoot people who have nothing to do with crime. Several people were killed this year — we are aware of at least three — who had no association with crime. All deaths of this kind are to be deplored and leave grieving families in their wake, as has been stated. We are all aware of the anguish of the family of Edward Ward and their moving comments in recent days about his death.

The Government has no greater priority than doing what it can to bring to an end this cycle of killing which has gone on for some considerable time. The Government is providing the agencies of the criminal justice system with the financial resources and legislative framework required to tackle this issue. Effective police work, successful prosecutions and prison places for those convicted hold the key to bringing to justice those involved in gangland activities and, in particular, gun crime. We should not under-estimate the difficulties faced by the Garda Síochána in bringing these killings to an end. As Deputy Kenny stated, this issue was recently discussed by the Cabinet and in the House last week.

The Garda Síochána has launched countless operations in an effort to protect people's lives. Unfortunately, while statistics such as 12,000 vehicles seized, 32,000 drug searches carried out and 60,000 checkpoints set up are impressive, the Garda Síochána receive absolutely no assistance from those people they seek to protect when seeking information in respect of the leaders or members of these gangs who wish to continue their criminal activities. This is a problem.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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They are afraid.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has provided unprecedented resources to help achieve this. In terms of what this means, Deputy Kenny will be aware that during the lifetime of the previous Government an extra 4,000 gardaí were recruited to bring Garda strength to 16,000. Garda strength is at 14,000 now. The current budget is €1.44 billion compared to €0.9 billion five years ago. Garda over-time this year amounted to €140 million compared to €66 million just a few years ago. Last year, €24.7 million was expended on the purchase of almost 1,400 vehicles for the Force. This is continuing. The new digital radio system will be implemented during the next two years, a priority for the Garda Síochána.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It has been in testing for years.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Other priorities for the Garda Síochana in terms of its ability to break up these gangs are; a major incident computer system which will automate many of the functions currently performed manually following a major incident, the introduction of an automated number plate recognition system, an automated finger-print identification system and an automated ballistic identification system. These are the four systems which the Garda Síochána has highlighted it requires in the short term. The resources are required to implement these four systems along with ongoing expenditure. These are just some examples of ongoing investment to ensure the Garda Síochána has the up to date technology required to allow it deal, to the best of its ability, with gun and other forms of crime.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Taoiseach "Who is in charge of the streets, the Government or the gunmen?" What increase in terms of staff will the CAB receive? I acknowledge the four systems identified are necessary and that this programme has been ongoing for many years. However, the Taoiseach recently announced that the CAB would receive extra resources. How many new officers will be recruited? Will CAB officers arrest drug pushers at a lower level, admittedly, visible on street corners in this and other cities in the early morning and evening? Will they target those who put them on the streets and provide help for their victims?

Will Deputy Flanagan's call for the establishment of a real witness protection programme be considered? The Taoiseach signed up in Lisbon last week to the trans-Border, trans-European measures in terms of drugs which I assume everybody in this House would support. Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Government will not opt out on cross-Border terrorism and cross-country capacity to deal with crime, which is becoming ever-more sophisticated and globalised? Has the Government made a decision on this? I do not believe the Government should blindly follow Britain which wants to opt out, when it already has an in-built mechanism by having an emergency brake applied and the capacity of Council to resolve any difficulties for our legislative system by virtue of consensus within the Council.

Who is in control of our streets, the Government or the gunmen? I have told the Taoiseach that the Fine Gael Party will support Government on this. Let us now hear what he has to say about it.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A large number of gardaí are involved in operation Anvil and the CAB. We are determined that the CAB will go after drug dealers. The change involves gardaí becoming operational at all levels rather than dealing only with bigger issues of criminality. It is an operational issue for the Garda Síochána.

On the question of the establishment of a witness protection scheme, Deputy Flanagan's question related to whether such a scheme if put on a statutory basis would make a difference. This is not considered a crucial issue from a Garda Síochána point of view. Obviously, if it were, we would not have a problem with it. As recently as yesterday the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform discussed this issue with the Garda Commissioner who is of the view that no benefit would be gained by its being placed on a statutory footing. The real issue is the willingness of witnesses to participate in the scheme. It seems clear that putting it on a statutory footing would have no effect and this is a big issue for us.

Deputy Kenny spoke about cocaine parties. This issue is being addressed by the Garda Síochána. I agree with the Deputy on that matter. We need not debate it. One must set an example.

If we want strong justice and home affairs arrangements we must ensure that our common law procedures are fully adhered to and that we have the power, within the Justice and Home Affairs Council, to deal with these issues. We do not take the same view as the United Kingdom on those issues. Our view is to participate fully in the debates on justice and home affairs. There are times when qualified majority voting would not be the wisest decision for us. We will draft a declaration that we believe is in Ireland's best interests.

Deputy Kenny expressed concern about border crimes. We are totally committed to maintaining protection of our borders. Some of the issues dealt with by the Justice and Home Affairs Council are not in line with our criminal justice system and it is not in our interest to be part of them. We must keep an Irish perspective on these matters. In many cases our position is closer to that of the United Kingdom, although not in all cases

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I join the Taoiseach and Deputy Kenny in expressing my horror at the three gun murders which occurred since the House met last Thursday. Mr. Eddie Ward, another man in the wrong place at the wrong time, joins a list of people, including Ms Donna Cleary and Mr. Anthony Campbell, who have been gunned down in cold blood. There have been 14 gun murders this year.

In 1997 prior to his election to Government, the Taoiseach told the country that he would make the fight against crime his priority. He said the Fianna Fáil message to the drug barons and criminal gangs was simple. He said he would not accept them, they would no longer be allowed to hold sway over our communities and they would not live in luxury with impunity because Fianna Fáil had a plan to arrest them, prosecute them and put them out of business. Since the Taoiseach made that statement in 1997, there have been more than 140 gun murders in the country and only one in six of those murders has resulted in a conviction. In five out of every six, the gunmen have not been arrested, prosecuted or put out of business.

The Taoiseach may talk about prison spaces, but the prison spaces are empty. There are 27 cells awaiting those not convicted of the 27 gun murders last year. There are 20 cells awaiting those not convicted of 20 of the 21 gun murders in 2005 and 18 prison spaces await those not convicted of 18 of the 20 gun murders in 2003. Will the Taoiseach explain why five of every six gun murderers in the past ten years have got away with their crime? Is it not because they got away with it that the problem is continuing and we see a continuing spate of increasingly vicious gun murder? What will the Taoiseach do to deal with this problem that he has not done in the past ten years? What does he now say to the Irish people when the vast majority of the gun murderers of the past ten years, who committed their crimes on his watch, have not been arrested, prosecuted or put out of business?

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Bring back zero tolerance.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to simplify the problem to the level of prison places. Nevertheless, we have increased them by more than 1,300. Even allowing for the population increase in the past ten years, the number of people in prison for serious crime, under the various new legislative measures, has substantially increased.

In reply to Deputy Kenny's question I listed the resources allocated to CAB, Operation Anvil, the Garda capital programme and the various Garda programmes and schemes to tackle identification, ballistics, fingerprinting and car plate numbers. These are all areas where the Garda needs resources to fight a more sophisticate level of crime.

The key point of what the Garda Commissioner and other senior garda state is that the high detection rates of other areas of crime are not achieved in gun crimes because in many cases the associates of the victims of gun crimes offer the gardaí no co-operation in their attempt to pursue the perpetrator. In many case, while any rational person would say it is in the interest of those associated with a victim to co-operate with the Garda, the gang culture does not allow it. Even where the gardaí are close to a situation and feel they have a good view of what has happened, the associates of a victim often will not give information. That prohibits the efforts of the Garda. In a number of recent cases the gardaí, through good intelligence and police work, got very close to arrests, convictions and the breaking up of gangs, but co-operation was not given. In some of these cases, even people who have been badly affected or beaten still do not co-operate with the Garda. This is not something that happens in the broader society but only in certain gangs, which are known to the Garda. It is a real deterrent to the Garda in carrying out their function.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is a message of defeat. We know the problem in getting convictions arises because the associates of criminals do not co-operate. Some do so out of choice and some because they are afraid. We know there is a culture of intimidation and fear associated with these gangs, but that is not a new problem. It was encountered in the United States and Italy when the authorities in those countries dealt with the Mafia. The problem was dealt with by the introduction of an effective witness protection scheme.

There is no point in the Taoiseach describing the problem to us when he has presided over it for ten years. We need a sense of what the solution is. Will the Taoiseach put a witness protection scheme on a statutory basis and make it effective? I accept that a witness protection scheme in a country like Ireland must be different from a scheme in a larger jurisdiction such as the United States. Will the Taoiseach make membership of a criminal gang a crime so the Garda has a different basis on which to pursue these gangs effectively?

The Taoiseach said that he did not want to simplify the problem but he was happy to simplify it ten years ago when he talked about zero tolerance. It is not a simple problem, I acknowledge that, but after ten years of presiding over 140 gun murders with only one out of every six cases ending with a conviction, in circumstances where in 58 cases the Garda know the perpetrators but could only convict 19 of them. What are the solutions? I will put forward some solutions, but what are the Taoiseach's solutions? Will this situation be allowed to continue? Will the Taoiseach simply say there is nothing we can do, as people are afraid to give evidence because they are being intimidated and so on?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Across the range of crimes the Garda detection figures have risen substantially. Long and tougher sentencing, more manpower and better resources is allowing the Garda to deal with the issues, particularly in the area of gun crime. Deputy Gilmore please do not ask me to do what is done in the United States, because if I were to suggest any of the measures taken in the United States, he would not support me.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach did.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Zero tolerance.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The witness protection scheme

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Please do no simplify it. The Deputy knows if you hold somebody for ten years, which is not unreasonable in the US, without a prosecution——

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Or in New York, it is no problem.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle is blushing

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the question of the witness protection scheme, the Minister met the Garda Commissioner to discuss this yesterday. The scheme is ten years in existence. It is under the direct operational control and administration of the Garda Commissioner, in response to attempts by criminal and other groups to prevent the normal functioning of the criminal justice system. A review of that scheme was completed just short of two years ago. Certain enhancements were made in its operation and they have been implemented. For obvious reasons it is not the practice to comment on the details of the operation of the scheme and I will not do that, but as recently as yesterday, it was looked at again. The real issue is the willingness of witnesses to participate and not the basis of the statutory scheme. Quite frankly, the Garda Commissioner and senior management do not believe that changing the basis of the scheme would be of help. Some Deputies may believe it would but I am stating the factual position. Deputy Gilmore is correct that the Garda by and large know who is involved in these groups and gangs, but we live in a democracy where people have constitutional rights, for example to remain silent. During the term of the last Government we brought in very severe and tough measures that were within the limits we thought were reasonably safe.

The Garda has asked the Government to deliver the schemes I mentioned at the start and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is proceeding with the automated number plate recognition system, the automated fingerprint identification system, the automated ballistic identification system and moving administrative staff to areas where it frees up numbers. These are practical measures which aid the Garda and they must be viewed in the knowledge that the Garda has the capacity to purchase 1,400 vehicles a year. We are in a position to be able to give the Garda all the things for which it has asked.