Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I wonder whether the Minister of State has the authority to consider any consolidation within the various roles that have been set out. It seems extraordinary that there are separate Ministries for forestry, fisheries and horticulture, compared to other sectors that assume greater importance in the development of the economy. What thinking went into the selection of subsectors for which a Minister of State has responsibility? Does it continue because it was always done this way? Is there any consideration of the sectors that require specialist oversight by political masters?

Some years ago, Mr. Colm McCarthy humorously referred to the number of hairdressers and suggested that we should have An Bord Gruaig to address their concerns in a manner similar to how other interests are addressed by State boards and Ministers of State. Will the Minister of State consider consolidation within the ranks of the Ministers of State? In this way when new tasks are required, as is the case with the Ministers of State with responsibility for innovation and older people, we can consolidate and make room for new tasks. If we need a new Minister of State for every task it will continue to grow indefinitely, with the taxpayer as the patsy.

Does the Minister of State have any mandate in respect of how this will develop? Perhaps he could suggest the need for an objective review of the areas that justify a Minister of State. We could apply the resources of the talented people promoted to these posts more effectively if we identified sectors with genuine new challenges. I welcomed the increased attention given to some areas, such as drugs. In other areas I fail to see the impact that Ministers of State have. As I stated on Second Stage, there should be an obligation on Government to set out the areas of responsibility, the expectation of performance and some way in which the House, which ultimately sanctions the appointments, can decide that the concerns are valid, that new challenges exist, that genuine policy initiatives are pursued and that it is not a case of leaving someone in the position because there was always someone in it. I wish to see this set out in the House, in order not to trivialise the appointment of the Ministers of State as has been the case. The Oireachtas has virtually no say in the shape of administration even though we deal with the consequences of poor administration on a daily basis. We have views, as have the Government backbenchers, on how ministerial responsibility should be structured. I would like more creativity in involving the Houses in shaping Government administration. I also seek greater involvement in the shaping of policy and legislative programmes, for which Deputy Shatter called. Backbenchers and the Opposition have no real opportunity for input.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I return to the issue of delegation orders. We are giving authority to the Government to appoint three additional Ministers of State. Some 17 Ministers of State have a legal basis for their appointments. There has been some discussion as to whether the appointments are cosmetic or real, politically driven or policy driven. The point can be argued back and forth but the acid test is whether the individual has authority underpinned by a delegation order. If there are no delegation orders they have no legal authority to carry out functions in the Department without the consent and assent of a Minister. On the other hand, if they are appointed to a specific role and have delegation orders they have legal authority to carry out specific functions even though the Minister has overall responsibility for policy. This is a key issue.

For instance, if Deputy Hoctor with her new responsibility for the elderly does not have a delegation order, her writ will not run unless it coincides totally with the senior Minister who is a member of a different party. The responsibilities of a number of Ministers of State are intended to cross Departments. The Minister of State with responsibility for children is considered a senior position with the officeholder, Deputy Brendan Smith, being allowed to attend Cabinet meetings but not having voting rights there. The ludicrous situation could arise whereby he would have a delegation order in respect of his role in the Department of Health and Children but he might not have delegation orders in respect of his roles in the Departments of Education and Science or Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is crucial this matter is addressed. If these positions are real, policy-driven ones and they are deemed by the Government to be necessary from a policy point of view to implement part of the programme for Government, then the officeholders should be given the legal authority to do the job. If it is a kind of "how's your father" arrangement with the senior Minister and if it hinges on the relationship between the senior Minister and the junior Minister, the precedents are not great.

One could consult the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, about her relationship with her senior Minister in her first appointment as junior Minister with responsibility for issues close to the heart of her new partners in Government, namely, the Environmental Protection Agency among other issues. Her senior Minister was the former Minister, Mr. Flynn, from Mayo. Everything works while everybody is friendly and until there is a difference of opinion. When that happens, in the absence of a delegation order, only one voice prevails, the voice of the Cabinet Minister.

Many of us in the House would in all sincerity have difficulty in naming the Ministers of State who recently went out of office. We would have difficulty in naming the names and nominating their portfolios. Due to the fact that they did not have delegation orders, the arrangement was informal. They only had the trappings of office. I do not criticise that; trappings go with office, but the Ministers of State did not have the statutory authority to do the job they were supposed to do.

What I want to establish in this debate is whether it will be different this time. Are titles such as "Minister for the elderly" or "Minister for children" or whatever is the title for the Minister of State with responsibility for tackling the drugs issue, driven by PR and a desire to indicate that serious action will be taken in particular areas simply because the titles are appropriate, or do they signify a real intention to give the people who have been promoted and who have ability, the authority to carry out the job?

When he is replying, perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will inform us about the 17 Ministers of State who have already been appropriately appointed under existing legislation, how many of their functions have been designated by order by their senior Minister and of the three new Ministers of State who are being appointed, whether it is the intention that their functions would also be designated by a delegation order?

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This appointment of extra junior Ministers is a bizarre arrangement. A senior Minister should be responsible for the full ambit of responsibilities within his or her Department. A junior Minister should act within that ambit. From my experience in Dáil Éireann I found that junior Ministers were necessary only in so far as their subordinates are concerned.

To my mind, this constitutes jobs for the boys and girls. Deputy Máire Hoctor has been appointed Minister of State with responsibility for the elderly. She is a reputable Member who has been elected by the people of Tipperary North and is a person who is well able to carry out her duties. However, she is meant to see to the needs of the nation's elderly. What other Member is better qualified to look after the elderly than the Deputy who should be responsible? I refer to the Deputy from Sligo-North Leitrim. To have a proper approach to such Ministers of State, one must appoint them to carry on with responsibilities that overlap with the senior Minister concerned. There is no point in creating additional posts.

When John Bruton as Taoiseach created two additional posts, he incurred vehement protests in this House from all angles. However, at that time he put a man in charge of the islands, namely, the former Deputy, Donal Carey, from Clare. He put his imprint on the offshore islands throughout the jurisdiction. The first time island people received recognition was from John Bruton as Taoiseach and Donal Carey as Minister for State with responsibility for the islands. He gave them a £1 million budget, which constituted the first relief ever secured for the people of the islands. This was a worthy cause.

However, we now have jobs for the boys and girls, to be brought in from the outside and to preside over what I would describe as nonsensical Departments. The time has come for common sense to prevail in this House. Members are either with it or they are not. If they are unable to govern and if Ministers are not responsible for their Departments, why appoint an excessive number of Ministers of State to take care of matters that should be the responsibilities of the respective Ministers?

It is time to let common sense prevail. I appeal to the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Noel Ahern, who knows his business well and knows where the shoe pinches. If Fianna Fáil gets back in again after the next election, its Members will appoint 25, not 20, Ministers of State. Is the sky the limit? Let sanity and common sense prevail.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to have an opportunity to say a few words on this matter because it is very important. The Minister of State questioned where Deputy Richard Bruton got the figure of the millions of euro it will cost the Exchequer to appoint the additional Ministers of State. While I am delighted to hear they have specific roles within their Departments, how can the Minister of State prove this is the case? Have they signed some form of order? The Minister of State should answer this question in the House tonight. He should not leave the House without doing so because when Opposition Members approach a Minister of State, it is important to know whether he or she has some real clout or must revert to the senior Minister of the relevant Department. Were I or any other Deputy to bring a delegation from our respective constituencies, there would be no point in going to the messenger boy or girl. One would go to the highest level in the Department. Will the Minister of State answer my question tonight?

Deputy Sheehan is correct in that this is about jobs for the boys and girls. The Taoiseach has many people to please and the best way to do so is to give them jobs, State cars and staff. However, what is given should not stop there. Have the people in question specific roles in their Departments?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Last week, the Taoiseach stated that a number of functions and aspects of functions were being moved between Departments in respect of certain delegation orders. This is a matter of joined-up Government, a phrase Fine Gael used often during the election. As good and as perfect as the Civil Service is, civil servants fight battles on behalf of their Departments in many instances. Where cross-cutting issues are involved, Ministers of State with responsibilities that cross a number of Departments are beneficial. Delegation orders are issued.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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From which Departments?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have all of that information. I do not know whether one Department issues orders and another does not.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will they be laid before the House?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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All Departments must issue delegation orders.

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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A significant number of Ministers of State have delegation orders.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, is not every Minister obliged to delegate a specified——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is not a point of order, but the Deputy may ask the Minister of State to yield to a question. Does the Minister of State wish to yield?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it not obligatory of Ministers to have a formal stated order and to have it completed by a deadline? This is my recollection from my period in Government, which is admittedly remote. If it was not a legislative requirement, the Taoiseach of the day ensured it happened.

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not an authority in this regard, but Ministers heard which specific functions the Taoiseach was allocating. The allocation was passed by Government.

While I may be wrong, not every Minister of State gets specific delegation orders approved by the Cabinet. From anecdotal information, those who might not have delegation orders might be given more freedom or have a greater amount of their Ministers' confidence than those with delegation orders. I will try to find out for the Deputies the percentage of people who have delegation orders, but that information is not known yet. The issue will drift for two months or so before the roles have bedded down.

Deputy Bruton asked how Minister of State positions are granted. Some are traditional whereas others are new and cut across different Departments, which seems to be the trend. Issues can run across many Departments and it is necessary to pull them together under a Minister of State who can give them time and energy because Ministers, who can be busy with many matters, will concentrate on the core issues. Pulling the issues and functions together has been beneficial. For example, the integration and innovation functions touch on several Departments.

Ministers of State have influence and power. Ministers may have overall responsibility but the question is whether Ministers of State also have influence and power, whether delegations will be interested in putting their case to them and so on. That is very much the case.

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Is it merely a case of rubber stamping?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a case of ensuring there is effective and joined-up Government through the new offices to which the Taoiseach has delegated responsibility.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State seems to be making this up as he goes along.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Kehoe is on dangerous territory.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is talking about joined-up thinking, delegation orders and so on. Will he lay before the House who has signed these orders? Which Departments have signed the orders?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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None of them are signed yet. The process will evolve in the next two or three months.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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This is not a trivial matter. If there is to be any degree of integrated thinking across Departments, there must be delegated orders, particularly in respect of Ministers of State with cross-cutting responsibilities. Without these, there is no authority. We have seen time and again in the case of initiatives at cross-departmental level that if the body that controls the budget does not consider these cross-cutting operations to be important, they will stifle them at birth.

Will the Minister of State convey to the Taoiseach the view of my party that he should insist that every Minister issues delegation orders specifying powers to the relevant Ministers of State? That is the only means by which the latter will have some meaningful role to play. It is vital for the protection of Ministers of State and for the purpose of ensuring better governance. I ask the Minister of State to convey that view formally.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I asked the Minister of State earlier about the Department of Education and Science, which now has five Ministers of State. Five Ministers of State for one Minister represents a complex structure. Will we be given a flowchart to indicate how the various responsibilities will be executed? I do not understand why a Minister who is deemed to be competent should need five Ministers of State. Can we have some information on the designation of functions? Three other Departments — Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Enterprise, Trade and Employment — each have four Ministers of State. I understand this is unprecedented in the history of the State.

We have emphasised the need to specify the delegated functions. From those functions flow responsibilities and authority in regard to budgets and powers of decision-making. I also pointed out the case of the proposed Minister of State, Deputy Jimmy Devins, who will have responsibility in no less than four Departments. That barely leaves him time to visit one Department on each day of the working week. There must be clarification in this regard. Is this duplication a joke? Will the Minister of State demonstrate that it has some meaning and its implications for the various Departments?

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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With no disrespect to Deputy Máire Hoctor, whom the Taoiseach will appoint Minister of State with responsibility for the elderly, why did he overlook the experience in this House of the one and only Deputy Mary O'Rourke? She surely should have been appointed to this position.

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Deputy Sheehan is trying to make a case to his party leader. He may be seeking a job for himself.

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am not looking for anything, I merely want common sense to prevail.

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton and other Deputies asked about the functions of Ministers of State across more than one Department. In many cases, this is because particular issues cross-cut several Departments and there is no structure in place within the Civil Service to amalgamate the various Departments with a view to working together in one direction. Ministers of State will obviously not necessarily have an office in each of four Departments.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Department of Education and Science has five Ministers of State. How will they find a table big enough to seat them?

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not see five but when the Deputy made that claim in her speech she made it seem as if there are 40 or 50 Ministers of State when we are increasing the number from 17 to 20.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are five.

Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a case of a Minister of State having been given a small amount of responsibility on a cross-cutting issue——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Minister of State to have regard to the orders of the House.

It is 9.30 p.m. and I am now required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of this day: "That each of the sections undisposed of is hereby agreed to in committee, that the Title is hereby agreed to in committee and that the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, that Report Stage is hereby completed and that the Bill is hereby passed."