Dáil debates
Tuesday, 3 April 2007
Ceisteanna — Questions
Code of Conduct for Office Holders.
2:30 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will amend the code of conduct for office holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6753/07]
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach his plans to amend the code of conduct for office holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8364/07]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if the code of conduct for office holders is under review; if changes are proposed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9643/07]
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he will amend the code of conduct for office holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12572/07]
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
The code of conduct for office holders was drawn up by the Government pursuant to section 10(2) of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001, following consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, and published in July 2003. On two occasions since the code was launched, I have provided office holders with additional guidance on it in the light of views expressed by the commission. The first occasion related to the use of public resources in the context of public events or advertising. On the second occasion, the guidance related to briefings by civil servants to Members. These are the only two occasions on which it has been necessary to issue guidance to office holders on the code since it came into operation. We should obtain wider experience about the effectiveness of the code before reviewing it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Taoiseach is as anxious as everybody else that everything should be absolutely clear in so far as the remit and role of public servants is concerned. In respect of briefings to be prepared for Ministers and Ministers of States on political matters in the run-in to the forthcoming general election, can we take it that public servants will not be asked to provide political material? In other words, if a series of information leaflets is to be produced, for example, will it be provided from the Taoiseach's party resources rather than by public servants? There should be no misunderstanding about this.
I read a report in the newspapers recently that there are up to 400 positions to be appointed on various boards and bodies. Is it the Taoiseach's intention to go ahead with that before the election? I understood there was a type of gentleman's agreement that a raft of appointments would not be made until the people decided what they want to do with their votes in terms of the appointment of the next Government.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Public servants generally, particularly those in the departmental system, never involve themselves in political material or political drafting. Therefore, the answer to the Deputy's first question is "No". That has always been the position, even outside election periods.
On the Deputy's second question, those reports arise from an omnibus parliamentary question put down to all Ministers on all the vacancies and positions that arise. Board positions are filled as they arise. As I said before, it is not the position to wait until an election period and then fill them all. In my Department, the list that came out included appointments to the NESC and NDF boards, which are all the social partnership boards. These amount to 70 or 80 names and they are done in a pro forma way.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is any review of the code of conduct planned, particularly in view of the pledge, after the brouhaha last year, that legislation would be introduced to reform the ethics legislation? The last time the Taoiseach answered questions on this, on 18 October, he said the Dáil would have an opportunity to discuss the matter "when the relevant Bill is introduced shortly by the Minister for Finance". It is unlikely we will see that now because the Taoiseach is closing down the Dáil towards the end of this week and he will permit himself some three weeks of campaigning before we start the campaign properly. When will we enact this legislation the Taoiseach and Tánaiste pledged would be enacted last October?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That legislation started in the Seanad and there is no reason it should not get through.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I take that as a commitment from the Taoiseach that the Bill will come into this House before the Dáil is dissolved. In respect of the imposition on Members to pay for the use of facilities during the election campaign, does that imposition apply to office holders? Is it only ordinary Members of the House who will be obliged to reimburse the Oireachtas for the use of its offices and staff? Does the imposition apply to Ministers in the discharge of their duties or are they in a separate and more privileged position?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I understand it, if constituency facilities are involved or facilities related to one's capacity as a TD, they are apportioned so everyone would pay. If it is related to one's public office role or departmental role, it does not apply. That is how I understand it.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does that mean Ministers have an advantage? For example, they have the use of transport. The Taoiseach and his Ministers can reasonably say that what they are doing is discharging their ministerial functions whereas——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I think we have gone well outside the scope of these questions.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thought you might say that, a Cheann Comhairle.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I would prefer if Members would stay within the questions they submit.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Furthermore, Sir, you may well be right.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, Deputy, and if the Chair is right I expect you to obey the Chair.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach heard my question and, perhaps, he will answer it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I understand, all these matters are being worked out by the commission and we are all bound by the same rules.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The code of conduct requires office holders to declare where they have a particular interest which transcends or encroaches on any particular performance of their office in the course of their holding same. To the Taoiseach's knowledge, what number of declarations have been made since the requirement was introduced in 2003? Has he any indication of the regularity——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It does not arise under this question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is one of the areas under the code of conduct. Does the Taoiseach see any need to revisit the matter in terms of amending the code of conduct in respect of that area? Does he agree one way of determining whether an amendment is required is whether the existing codes of conduct requirements are being honoured. That is why I asked the question in the first place.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said in my original reply, I see no reason to review the code because there have been only two determinations in the six years since we started the process and declarations are made on an annual basis to the Standards in Public Office Commission. Every Member and office holders, in particular, have to make a detailed declaration every year.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I asked the Taoiseach specifically if he would amend the code of conduct for office holders. The reason I asked that question was that on 28 February last the Taoiseach told us very clearly that he was opposed to the packing of State boards. Will he amend the rules in line with his clearly stated view on that matter, given that in the first six months 375 appointments were made by office holders to State boards and apparently 400 appointments are to be made between now and the end of the Government's term? Is there any point in taking seriously what the Taoiseach says here, that he is opposed to the packing of State boards, when he will not amend the code of conduct for office holders to reflect that clearly stated preference on his part? If he is opposed to it, how can his Ministers go against him in that regard? Will he, therefore, change the code of conduct?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The issue we debated on that and other occasions was that after an election it was the practice of all Governments, whether they changed, to fill positions on State boards. There may be some urgent ones but I do not think that generally such boards should be packed in that interregnum period. On filling positions on boards as they arise, on a daily or weekly basis, they have to be filled and it would be wrong not to fill them. State boards cover many different areas and have to be filled on an ongoing basis. There are two different things here, however. There are 400 vacant positions to be filled, many of which are on nominating bodies, as the Deputy will be aware from the reply to the questions. They are nominated by various organisations and bodies, but even if they were not, ordinary day-to-day departmental procedures must be adopted. The interregnum period is a different matter so my view still holds.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Is there not a need to change the code of conduct, therefore, at least to reflect that so that it is not ambiguous? It is so at the moment.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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My view is that people should use common sense in these matters. There is nothing to stop the positions from being filled in the interregnum period but I do not think it requires a code. If we start putting everything into codes——
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Well, we are moving in that direction.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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How does the Taoiseach draw a distinction between saying he is opposed to State boards being packed on the eve of an election and saying that he will proceeded with 400 appointments between now and the general election, as has been reported recently? "Packed" is only a derogatory term applied to the appointments. It seems the Taoiseach is proceeding as he said he would not at the last Question Time.
May I also ask the Taoiseach about the answer he just gave me concerning the reform of this legislation as promised at the time of the Paddy the plasterer affair? He said the Bill is in the Seanad. On reflection, can he say if that is the case? I am advised it is not.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government Chief Whip tells me that if the Bill is not in the Seanad it is going to the Seanad and it will be dealt with there.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said it was in the Seanad. When does language ever mean anything?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Bill has passed——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There is not a day the Taoiseach comes in here that he does not tell blatant fibs. It is either in the Seanad or it is not.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy Rabbitte.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said the Bill was in the Seanad, now he says it is going to the Seanad.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to allow the Taoiseach to continue.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Can the Taoiseach never answer a straightforward question?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I think Deputy Rabbitte should withdraw his comment that I come in here every day telling blatant fibs.
Brian CowenPat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I can rhyme off half a dozen of them the Taoiseach told me in the past two weeks.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy is not going to withdraw it, that is all right.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach told me there were 91 labour inspectors when there were 30.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to withdraw the comment.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Five minutes ago, in answer to a perfectly harmless question, the Taoiseach told me that the Bill was in the Seanad and that it would come back here for enactment.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to withdraw the word "fibs".
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy does not want to withdraw it, that is fine, a Cheann Comhairle. One would not believe anything he says either.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to withdraw the word "fibs", please.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A Cheann Comhairle——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Taoiseach, I am asking Deputy Rabbitte to withdraw the word "fibs", please.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Can you give me an appropriate term, a Cheann Comhairle?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am asking the Deputy unequivocally to withdraw the word "fibs", which is unparliamentary. It has never been allowed by any of my predecessors in this House and I am certainly not going to permit it.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There are analogous terms that are stronger.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, I ask you to withdraw the word and we will resume business.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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What the Taoiseach told me was not in accordance with the facts, and that is not for the first time.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I want the Deputy to withdraw the word "fibs".
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I withdraw the word "fib".
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government Chief Whip informs me that the Bill has been approved by the Government and is due to start in the Seanad, although I do not know on what day. I will check and let Deputy Rabbitte's office know the date. I am not responsible for the business of the Seanad, and I think the Deputy knows that.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is responsible for his answers here, however.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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My answer is that the Bill left the Government to go to the Seanad.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is the Taoiseach's answer now, but it is not what he said earlier.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said the Bill was going to start in the Seanad.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach did not say that; he said the Bill was in the Seanad and had started there.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will find out exactly where it is for the Deputy. I will check whether it is in the Whip's office, stopped on a corridor or sitting on a shelf. If the Deputy wants to get into that kind of precision, two of us can play that game. What was the Deputy's second question anyway?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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My second question related to packing State boards.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have already answered that question.