Dáil debates

Wednesday, 13 December 2006

Ceisteanna — Questions

Northern Ireland Issues.

11:00 am

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting on 16 November 2006 with the family of the late Sinn Féin councillor, Mr. Eddie Fullerton, who was murdered in his home in Buncrana, County Donegal, in May 1991 (details supplied); the action he proposes to take; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39355/06]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach if his Department will establish a public inquiry into collusion of British authorities with loyalist paramilitaries following recent reports on the matter; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41355/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he has received a copy of the report of the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights into the Barron report on the bombing of Kay's Tavern and other incidents; the action he has taken arising from the report; if he has plans to raise the report with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41614/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting on 30 November 2006 with relatives of those who died in the Miami Showband massacre. [41615/06]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the action he proposes to take in response to the final report on the Report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Bombing of Kay's Tavern, Dundalk, and other acts of collusion; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42280/06]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the families of the Miami Showband atrocity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42289/06]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach if he has discussed the recent report of the sub-committee of the Joint Committee for Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights into the findings of the Barron inquiry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42290/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach if he has received a request from Mr. Paddy MacEntee for a further extension of the deadline for the completion of his investigations into aspects of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings; if it is intended to grant the request; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42516/06]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 9: To ask the Taoiseach the actions he will take arising from recent reports of collusion between the British authorities and loyalist paramilitaries. [42771/06]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, together.

On 29 November, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights published its final report into the bombing of Kay's Tavern in Dundalk in 1975. This is the last of Mr. Justice Barron's reports to be considered by the committee. The findings in this report are deeply troubling and a matter of most serious concern. They paint a very disturbing picture. I fully support the call for a full debate in the Dáil and the Seanad on collusion.

I have agreed to a request to meet with the relatives of the victims of the Dundalk bombing in the new year. This will be preceded by a meeting to be held before Christmas with my officials.

In accordance with the recommendations of the first report of the Oireachtas joint committee, Mr. Patrick MacEntee was appointed as sole member of a commission of investigation to examine specific matters relating to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974, including aspects of the Garda investigation and missing documentation. The appointment was made on 26 April 2005.

Last week, Mr. MacEntee provided me with a further interim report and requested a further extension to the timeframe to 14 February 2007. I have brought this seventh interim report to the attention of the Government and, as with previous such reports, I have published it. It is clear from this latest interim report that Mr. MacEntee has completed his investigations and that this further period is required to deal with the final arrangements which the commission is obliged to comply with prior to reporting under the Commissions of Investigation Act.

The interim report indicates that further evidence or other material has also been received during the reporting phase, thereby causing a delay in completion of the report. On the basis that he has uncovered further information, and in light of the need to deal with the remaining issues in an appropriate manner, I have granted Mr. MacEntee a further extension. I acknowledge that waiting a further period before Mr. MacEntee's final report is available is difficult for the victims and survivors. Nonetheless, it is clear that Mr. MacEntee must be allowed sufficient time to complete his work.

I established the inquiries by the late Mr. Justice Hamilton, Mr. Justice Barron and, most recently, Mr. MacEntee precisely because of the long-standing suspicions concerning collusion in the 1970s. We have now had all four reports of the Oireachtas joint committee, following in turn on the four reports by Mr. Justice Barron. We will also have the report from Mr. MacEntee in February. I commend all of the work that has been done to date in these investigations.

I again raised the issue of collusion with Prime Minister Blair when I met him on 4 December in London. I have made it clear that I want the British Government to examine the findings of all of these reports, as well as the forthcoming MacEntee report. I appreciate there are many issues on all sides arising from the past but I have consistently emphasised, and I believe Prime Minister Blair understands, the very deep anxiety and widespread concerns arising from these reports and the need for the British Government to play its part in addressing these concerns. It is in everyone's interests to try to secure closure now with clarity in respect of these dark and troubling cases.

I met with the families of the victims and the survivors of the Miami Showband massacre on 30 November. The story of the Miami Showband massacre, which happened on 30 July 1975, brought the terrible reality of the Troubles home to so many people.

I expressed my sympathy to the families for the loss of their loved ones and for the terrible ordeal they endured 31 years ago. I listened carefully as the families described the horrific night of the massacre, when the three members of the band lost their lives, and explained how the events have affected them since then. The families raised a number of specific questions with me regarding the massacre, which I have undertaken to follow up.

I met with the family of Eddie Fullerton, the late Sinn Féin councillor from County Donegal, in Government Buildings on 16 November. As the House will be aware, Councillor Fullerton was murdered in his home in May 1991. During the meeting, I expressed my sympathy to the family for their loss.

I have since asked the Tánaiste and his officials to further examine the concerns of the Fullerton family. I have also asked both the Tánaiste and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to seek to ensure the maximum level of cross-Border co-operation required to assist the ongoing investigations into the case, both North and South.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to record my welcome of the fact that the Taoiseach has met with the family of the late Councillor Eddie Fullerton. I pay tribute to the steadfastness of that family and recall that the late Eddie Fullerton's son, Albert, was tragically killed earlier this year. He had tirelessly campaigned for truth and justice in his father's memory.

Following on the Taoiseach's meeting with the Fullerton family, does he agree, having heard the family's representations and having apprised himself of all the critical detail available, that this murder raises disturbing questions? Does he agree that one of the most worrying aspects of it is the way in which the investigation of the death of Councillor Fullerton was conducted by gardaí in County Donegal? Is he aware that personal belongings of the late Councillor Fullerton, who he has just reminded us in his response was murdered in May 1991, have still not been returned to the family? Those belongings were taken from Councillor Fullerton's home. Fifteen years later, does the Taoiseach agree that is strange and that this and many other aspects of the Garda investigation of the time gave the Fullerton family the sense that it was they and their father who were under investigation and not those responsible for his murder who were being pursued?

Will the Taoiseach agree these are real and serious matters? Will he accept that the murder of Councillor Fullerton mirrored many of those investigated by Mr. Justice Barron and which have been exposed by the Oireachtas sub-committee in its most recent series of reports and follow-on to the work of Mr. Justice Barron, and the late Mr. Justice Hamilton preceding, demonstrating collusion between British Crown forces and loyalist paramilitaries?

Will the Taoiseach accept that the murder of Councillor Fullerton bears all the hallmarks of those who have carried out other such attacks and atrocities in this State over the years and that the form of its execution showed a sophistication and a training which presumably could only have been available to those who had been trained in such actions and very likely by the British Crown forces in the North?

Will the Taoiseach indicate his willingness to proceed to a full public inquiry, which is the request and the requirement of the family in their pursuit of truth and justice on the death of a husband and father? He was an Irish public representative, a member of Donegal County Council——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should confine himself to a question.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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——and the then Buncrana Urban District Council. In that context, will the Taoiseach indicate to the House today that he will move to establish all the facts by such a method, recognising something which is not a small matter, namely, that in the fullness of time if Councillor Fullerton had lived, I have no doubt he would have been sitting on these benches just as Taoiseach and I?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has asked a number of questions. We had a meeting at which all the points raised by the Deputy Ó Caoláin were included in a submission presented to me by the family. They give me an oral presentation of the facts and they have also been communicating with my officials. We have taken their submission in its entirety, which includes all the points the Deputy raised, and I have written to the Tánaiste and his officials, who were also at that meeting with me, asking that they further examine all the concerns of the Fullerton family. I have also asked the Tánaiste and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to seek to ensure the maximum level of cross-Border co-operation is given, which the family asked me to do, to assist in the ongoing investigation into this case.

The Garda is carrying out a full review of the case, which is still ongoing. I fed into that review the points made by the family. I understand from the Tánaiste that the Garda review is nearly completed. The Garda will obviously take into account what I have said recently. This is an extensive review led by a chief superintendent. More than 120 interviews of witnesses took place and all the papers, documents and what has been said by everybody concerned over a long period have been taken into account.

For the sake of completeness, the family has a number of concerns about the review process. I passed on their views on that in a forthright manner. It would be a pity if the work was done and it did not give them satisfaction. I have dutifully passed on the family's points to the Garda, and asked it to take account of them because, as the Deputy said, the family are decent and respectful people.

I am advised that one main item outstanding is a request for mutual assistance from the PSNI. I understand there has been contacts between the Garda and the Historical Enquiries Team, the HET. I have asked to be kept up to date on developments, and the Tánaiste will do likewise.

For the information of the House, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Nuala O'Loan, has announced she will investigate Eddie Fullerton's murder. Any assistance the authorities in this State can offer that inquiry should also be given. Between the two sets of work we have achieved what the Deputy set out. We will have to see where that goes and how much co-operation we will get, but I will keep the matter under review.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I have a number of questions arising from the Taoiseach's reply. He said that the delay in regard to the MacEntee inquiry is regrettable, with which we all agree, but it is due to the fact that new evidence has continued to be brought forward. Surely it could be a tactic to delay an inquiry if new evidence is being dripfed on an interminable basis. Will a cut-off date be set following which all the evidence that has been received will be considered or how will the Taoiseach deal with possible dripfeeding of information that may be never ending?

The Taoiseach said there is a need for the British Government to play its part in addressing the relatives' concerns, which I fully accept. Is there also a need for the Irish Government to play its part? Is there a role this Government could play that would be independent of requesting the British Government to play a role, as this is an international matter that concerns the Irish State as well as the British state?

In the context of bringing forward initiatives from the Irish side, will the Taoiseach suggest the holding of a single issue British-Irish summit on the matter? Is that something he has considered? Will he put such a proposal to the British Prime Minister? We discussed the establishment of some form of a truth and reconciliation commission in the past and the view at the time was that it was not the right time to establish it. Is there ongoing consideration of the establishment of such a commission as a way of hopefully bringing closure and a certain amount of healing following all the hurt of the past?

I welcome that a Dáil debate on this area is planned and I hope it can take the form of a motion — as in the case of a previous debate on the on the Pat Finucane case — on the establishment of an international independent inquiry. Will the Taoiseach indicate when that debate will take place? Will it be next February, March or some other time?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has raised a number of issues. On the question of a planned debate, it would be useful if it took the form of a motion. It might take place in the second half of February or early March when there tends to be a focus on Irish issues in the broader world. It would be a idea to have it then.

On the broad issue of closure, I have said previously to the Deputy that I am a supporter of the prospect of a truth commission, which the Deputy has raised over a number of years. There is the question of how it can be formed. Many people simply want closure; they do not want any talk about this. It happened a long time ago and they just want to move on. Obviously, they will never stop grieving but they want to do that privately and they do not want to be part of any group. That is a sizeable group. Another sizeable group wants at least a good account taken of what happened. They are happy, if they can be, of the work being done by the Historical Enquiries Team. They are satisfied with that work; they see these cases being properly dealt with and there is proper dealings with the Garda, the PSNI and Nuala O'Loan's office. There is another group which is active on all of these issues and tends to only want to examine one aspect and not all of the other aspects.

From where I sit, it would be good to bring this to an end — I have meet RUC widows groups, RUC families, Nationalist families, republican families and paramilitary groups — by finding some way of bringing them all into some process. I tried to do that by pressing hard for the establishment of a truth and reconciliation commission some years ago. To say I got a collective "No" to that proposal is an understatement. The Deputy and I predicted at that time that as the trouble ended more people would reflect on matters. I have been through these meetings with people, which I am honoured to have been through, but I can see their hurt and I have got vivid accounts of exactly what happened in 1971, 1969 and 1973. I can understand all that, but there must be a process to bring it to an end. We have not quite reached that stage. Some of the issues can be answered and there is much work to be done. The work of the historical inquiries team is very useful and is very well resourced. The Secretary of State, Mr. Hain, has put many people on this team. They are going back through all the records and they will do much good work, which is something I have heard from the victims' commission. The interim victims' commissioner is now in place and important work is being done. There is a remembrance commission, into which we have put a lot of resources.

Much is being done but if I am asked whether these will bring matters to a close, there is no satisfactory answer. The standard thing to do is to set up a public inquiry, but I am in the position where I must tell people the truth about many of these things. I cannot see where we are going to get the co-operation, the details and the facts. We might get that for some cases, but not for many others. We would be giving another answer, but we would not resolve the cases. I have been straight with groups about that and I have been holding my hand in so many dykes when I tell them that I will not grant a Government inquiry because I do not believe it will work.

I have pressed hard on the British Government, as have my Ministers and officials. Without marching out of rooms, the message has been clearly received that the British Government needs to make a far greater effort to get its security system to provide reports. That is why we are getting more information. A genuine effort has been made and almost all of last week's meeting on 5 December with the Prime Minister and his officials concerned this issue. To put it in layman's terms, we had it out with them and we quoted the Oireachtas report extensively, not for the first time. I told the Prime Minister that it was my view and the view of the Government and the Oireachtas that it was not good enough to let this drift indefinitely. The British Government must deal with this issue through some process.

Mr. MacEntee wants to finish the job. He is not interested in taking up the invitations I made in respect of the other committees. At the same time, he feels he is getting somewhere. It is one thing to get information and co-operation, but there are also circumstances surrounding that. I am not privy to what exactly he received — I have a general view of it — but it seems to me that there is a legal nightmare surrounding it in terms of the name game etc. I am not a legally trained person. The circumstances in which MI5 can provide information is legally complex. I detect that even someone as good as Mr. MacEntee is having problems with that. He will see this out and wants to do so. The House has been urging me to put pressure on the British Government to get more information, and we have received more in 2006. The question of how that can be used is for another day.

I was pleased that the Secretary of State, Mr. Hain, yesterday accepted that the Oireachtas committee and the Government were entitled to be raising these issues and that his Government would do everything possible to bring closure to these issues. That was the first time such a statement was made. I was not at the meeting, but that was the view of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and other officials. I believe that statement followed from the meeting we had in No. 10 Downing Street last week. We have had four reports from Mr. Justice Hamilton and Mr. Justice Barron, we have had four Oireachtas reports and we have the MacEntee report. We have a great body of intelligence gathered on all of the cases. We have tried to put the similarities in these reports together and present them in a way that makes our collective view clear to the British.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I do not wish to go back over this territory, but does the Taoiseach have an accord with Mr. MacEntee? This is the seventh deferral. I am sure he has very good reasons for asking for a deferral, but is the February deadline likely to be met on this occasion?

No member of the loyalist paramilitaries has ever been charged with atrocities committed south of the Border. Given that an historical inquiries team has been put in place in Northern Ireland, does the Taoiseach think there might be merit in putting a similar team in place to investigate atrocities that have never been accounted for in this jurisdiction, by paramilitaries of whatever hue? What is the Taoiseach's response to the call made by the committee for an international investigation along the lines of the investigation led by Judge Cory? Does he have his mind made up about that particular committee recommendation?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte has asked me the first question a number of times. I probably told him that it was the last report, but further information came about. I can understand the delay because of that, but it will not help us if we keep going on about the issue. I hope it will end in February, but I cannot be positive about that.

Our historical inquiries team is different because of the volume of cases involved, but the Garda now has a core group researching into cases like the murder of Councillor Eddie Fullerton. I am not sure of the total number of cases, but there is a detailed account on some of them. The historical inquiries team in Northern Ireland has thousands of cases and the situation is therefore different. We have had a look back on cases such as the Dundalk bombings and so on.

I had originally hoped that Mr. MacEntee would be able to move on from his report and deal with some of the other reports arising from it. He certainly will not do this, but I am not sure whether we will get an international figure to do it. The solution involving Judge Cory worked in that case, but I do not think it will work again. There was trouble in agreeing on a person, and then there was conflict about the report the person produced. I am referring to the Finucane case where we had an agreement, but after a certain date it was not accepted. There was an issue about the inquiry into that. I am not too sure if that is the difficulty. To be brutally frank, without the co-operation of the British authorities we cannot progress as far as we want on these issues. In all of these cases it is essential to have the co-operation of the British if we are to take matters further. I have made clear to them there is a process, but we have not identified as yet what it should be. I am reluctant just to pick one or two more cases because that does not end matters. We did that as regards the Cory reports. There was a view that by taking a few high profile cases on both sides, that would bring matters to an end. However, I can see the number of cases being extended. The Historical Enquiries Team together with work being done in the South will deal with many of the cases, but we must find some other way to bring closure to so many cases from a brutal past.

I am not satisfied we have found the best way to do that as yet, but I shall continue to engage with the British Government in this regard.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was reading some of the cuttings in respect of the Miami Showband killings on 30 July 1975, which many people will recall. I know the Taoiseach has met members of the families. Mr. Justice Barron, in his reflections on that case, said it painted a clear picture of collaboration between members of the security forces and loyalist extremists. He said the inquiry would be shutting its eyes to reality if it accepted that such collaboration was limited to the cases in which collusion had been proven. By September of that year, the identities of the murder gang were known — arising from the minutes of a meeting involving the then British Prime Minister Harold Wilson, the Northern Ireland Secret of State at the time, Mr. Merlyn Rees, the future Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and the late Mr. Airey Neave, MP. That went on to say there had been serious infiltration by extremist Protestants in the south Armagh area.

Perhaps the Taoiseach can indicate whether Prime Minister Blair has made any further advance as regards providing information that can assist in view of Mr. Justice Barron's recommendations. Is it the same old story? I know the Taoiseach has raised this matter on quite a number of occasions, but it does not seem to have got anywhere. Is he hopeful that Prime Minister Blair might, perhaps, change his mind in that regard?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The first report was the work of Mr. Patrick MacEntee, SC. The second report was on the 1972-73 bombings and the third was on the death of Mr. Seamus Ludlow. Then there is the current report. There is definitely strong evidence of collusion and the British Government is very much aware of our concern in this regard. The Miami Showband tragedy is one of many incidences. I spelt out clearly for the British Government the view pertaining in this House and the conclusions reached by Mr. Justice Barron, against the backdrop of the location and the people we are dealing with. More will need to be done to progress the reports further. However, the British are in no doubt as regards our views and our feelings on these issues. In the Miami Showband case there is certainly a strong sense that loyalists and the UDR were working hand in hand. Even the surviving member of the band strongly maintains that a senior British Army officer was present that night. There is a lot of evidence and we have done well to present it all. What the final outcome will be is another question, but we have progressed matters significantly.