Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 132: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on whether there is currently inadequate prison capacity in the State due to the closure of a number of prisons; if he has proposals to deal with the present crisis; and the reason he paid at least €15 million too much for the Thornton Hall farm. [30828/06]

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On 28 September 2006 there were 3,158 persons in prison custody as compared with a bed capacity of 3,383. This represents an occupancy level of 93%. It is my view, supported by these figures, that there is no overcrowding crisis or immediate issue relating to the capacity of the prison system. There is, however, a need to upgrade existing prison accommodation and to plan for the future and I am advancing a number of projects at present to that end.

This Government, which took office in July 1997, inherited a prison system virtually in a state of collapse. In mid-term the outgoing Government in an infamous decision had actually cancelled planned building projects at Castlerea and the women's prison at Mountjoy. The situation was so bad that the revolving door syndrome was in danger of forever discrediting the entire Irish criminal justice process. Furthermore, nothing had been done to even plan to refurbish Mountjoy Prison, which was even then in a deplorable state.

To illustrate the scale of the problem we inherited, the proportion of prisoners on temporary release on 9 December 1996 stood at 552, a figure equating to 20% of the total prison population. This compares with a current figure of 156 persons, or under 5% of the prison population. The actual number of prisoners in custody on 9 December 1996 stood at 2,230 with a bed capacity for 2,251, an occupancy level of 99%. Mountjoy Prison had 640 prisoners within its walls which is a figure 40% higher than the current population of 454.

The Deputy should be aware of the provision of approximately 1,300 new prison spaces in recent years at considerable cost, which has put the Irish Prison Service in a much better position to accommodate prisoners for the duration of their sentences than was the case in the mid-1990s. This programme has resulted in the building of new prisons such as Cloverhill, Castlerea, the Midlands and the new women's prison at Mountjoy alongside additional accommodation in Limerick and Loughan House. Further accommodation is at an advanced stage of construction at Portlaoise Prison, Casterea Prison, Loughan House and Shelton Abbey and new prison estates are being planned for Thornton Hall and Spike Island.

It is a bit much for the Deputy to ask about a current overcrowding problem and a crisis within the prison system when the Government he supported in 1997 left the system in a state. In regard to Fort Mitchel and the Curragh, the number of spaces provided in the lifetime of this Government far outweighs the number of places lost at that point.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

I also refer the Deputy to my response to his colleague, Deputy Durkan, in Question No. 167 answered on 5 May 2004 in which I advised that:

any shortage of prison spaces is not as a direct result of the forced mothballing of the places of detention at Fort Mitchel and the Curragh. Overall these two institutions had a capacity of 204 spaces (102 each). The recent opening of a new wing in Limerick Prison has fully offset the loss of Fort Mitchel. The lost capacity in the case of the Curragh Place of Detention, has been approximately 80% offset by the bringing into operation of previously unused spaces in the Midlands Prison.

It is therefore disingenuous to assert that the closing of these places of detention has in some way contributed to an overcrowding crisis. Suggestions to this effect are completely misleading and irresponsible.

Nevertheless, I accept that a number of our prisons remain in a poor state, particularly Mountjoy and Cork prisons. This is being remedied by constructing new campuses in Dublin and Munster. The new facilities will, in addition, offer significant improvements in the areas of work training, education and medical services as well as providing predominantly single cell accommodation with in-cell sanitation facilities. These are major undertakings involving replacement of close to 40% of the entire prison estate.

The Deputy seems to be suggesting that the €29.9 million paid for the 150 acres at Thornton is €15 million too much. Is this the same Deputy who was reported by The Irish Times in July 2005 as saying that a five acre plot of land in the same townland at Thornton Hall itself but not purchased by the State, is worth €1 million an acre?

I am quite satisfied that the purchase of 150 acres of land at Thornton for approximately €200,000 an acre was an excellent long-term investment for the State and is not out of line with prices being paid by private developers. This view is not only supported by experts employed by the State but also by independent sources. A local auctioneer interviewed by RTE Radio 1 stated that he had disposed of land for between €125,000 and €175,000 an acre and that he doubted if anyone could identify a parcel of 150 acres of land within ten miles of O'Connell Street for less than €30 million. One can still obtain some parcels of land in north county Dublin on the scale envisaged at Thornton for a cheaper price but not land suitable for a prison.

The Comptroller and Auditor General in his 2005 report suggests that if a less open, third party approach was used it might have been possible to acquire suitable land at a lower price. That it his view, however, my Department's Secretary General, the Accounting Officer, had, for good reasons extreme reservations about using a covert and secret third party approach to purchasing land for this project. I shared his reservations in this regard. The Accounting Officer had administrative oversight of the acquisition process throughout, put in place in respect of the purchase of Thornton. He looks forward to further clarifying the matter when he gives evidence before the forthcoming meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts on this topic.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Minister living in a different world from the rest of us? Was he around during the month of August when there were dreadful happenings in our prisons? Was he even aware of the appalling overcrowding in Mountjoy or of the spate of assaults, stabbings and so on resulting from it? Was he aware a prisoner was killed in that prison largely as a result of the overcrowding because his request for help could not be accommodated?

Is the Minister not aware that a major contribution to the overcrowding problem is that he took a number of prisons and institutions out of commission without providing immediate alternative accommodation? I refer to Spike Island, the Curragh and, if I recollect correctly, Shanganagh. Does he not realise that the crisis which developed in our prisons resulted largely from overcrowding and that anybody to whom one talks in the Irish Prison Service will confirm that? During whatever time is left to him in office, does he have plans to relieve that overcrowding?

I refer to the long-term plans in regard to the Thornton Hall farm which, at €200,000 per acre, is labelled the dearest farm in Europe. Is the Minister not in any way concerned that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is a shocking confirmation of the Minister's spendthrift approach as far as taxpayers' money is concerned? There is no planning and zoning for the farm, the agricultural value of which is probably €4 million or €5 million. The Comptroller and Auditor General gives the Minister some solace by saying it could be worth €15 million because of hope value, yet he paid €30 million for it with €15 million of taxpayers' money wasted. He is the leader of a party which, at one stage, prided itself on having some care and concern about taxpayers' money. Does he have an answer to that accusation in light of the independent criticism of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On the Deputy's first question, I do not know if he was having a quiet snooze but I dealt with the deaths and weapons in Mountjoy and all the issues approximately five minutes ago.

I would like to make a couple of points about Thornton Hall. The Deputy will be aware that the Committee of Public Accounts will examine that issue this month. I am confident the Accounting Officer of my Department, the Secretary General, Mr. Sean Aylward, will go before that committee and will fully establish a few simple propositions. First, the land is of the value spent on it.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would not like to try to sell it.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Second, nobody is in a position to point to any land suitable for a prison at that distance from or nearer to the city of Dublin which has sold or changed hands for a lesser price. Third, the Comptroller and Auditor General did not say €15 million was wasted. He said — let us be clear about it — that if I had agreed to secretly buy the land and not disclose the purpose for which I was purchasing it, to wait for an auction to take place and to spring this on some community without giving any consideration to what land was available and if I was to do a furtive purchase in those circumstances, I could have bought land in north Dublin for €100,000.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister slipped it through overnight.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is what he said. The Deputy will appreciate that what happened was that the Accounting Officer of my Department came to the conclusion that it would be ethically wrong to send people out to farms that became available without having a fully transparent, advertised process seeking appropriate land for the purpose.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The deal was done.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

All of these matters will be thrashed out before the Committee of Public Accounts. I am confident that the decisions made by the committee in question, which was composed of senior public servants, including one of the commissioners of the Office of Public Works, on the basis of an approach which was devised by the Accounting Officer of my Department, will stand up to any scrutiny. I again finish with this question; can anybody show me any land the same or a lesser distance as Thornton Hall from O'Connell Bridge, which has changed hands for less than €200,000 per acre in the past two years? One will not find it because it has not happened.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister put up the price.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is it the case again that everybody is out of step but the Minister? Does everybody not agree that it was a disgraceful waste of public money? Does everybody not also agree with the headline in The Irish Times that it was an expensive blunder? The Minister referred to consultation. There was no consultation. Does the Minister not accept that this farm did not emerge from the original process and that the entire transaction was slipped through almost in the dark of night, that it took place in a matter of seven days, that there was no local public consultation and that in regard to comparative values, a farm within a couple of kilometres of the farm in question was sold two months later for €26,000 an acre, which would have been far more suitable for a prison?

The Minister spent €30 million of taxpayers' money and he still tries to justify it. Does the Minister not accept that if somebody were starting a sweetshop he would not put him in as manager because his business expertise——

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What I would say to the Deputy——

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——leads him to buy the most expensive farm in Europe?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No land which was suitable for a prison was sold for the prices in question closer to or the same distance from the city of Dublin. The second matter about which I remind Deputy O'Keeffe relates to his own auctioneering tendencies. It is interesting to note that in July 2005 he stated that five acres of the Thornton Hall farm which was kept back by the vendor was worth €1 million per acre and he gave out to me for missing that opportunity.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was the only part of the land which was zoned.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is being disingenuous.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Order, please. I call Question No. 133.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does the Minister not know——

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Chair has called Question No. 133.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——that the five acres to which I referred was included in the original sale and was the only part that had zoning, and to complete the bad deal——

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Chair has called the next question.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——was excluded from the sale at the last moment?

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister did not get that either.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister did not get the five acres with zoning. He is some óinseach to send out.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He will not be sent again.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Not alone would I not put the Minister in charge of a sweet shop, I would not send him out to buy a bag of sweets.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Chair has called the next question.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is awake now. It is a curious fact that he thinks five acres out of the 160 acres of the original land parcel were worth €5 million when two minutes ago he stated——

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does the Minister know anything about zoning and planning?

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister would be a great man in the Wild West.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We must move on to Question No. 133.