Dáil debates
Wednesday, 5 July 2006
Ceisteanna — Questions.
Official Engagements.
11:00 am
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting with an Iraqi parliamentary delegation during its recent visit here. [24577/06]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach when he next expects to meet the President of the European Commission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25547/06]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the foreign visits he intends undertaking during the remainder of 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25550/06]
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, together.
On 21 June I met a delegation of senior political representatives from the main political groupings in Iraq. The delegation was visiting Ireland, both North and South, to discuss and learn from the Irish peace process. On behalf of the Prime Minister of Iraq, Mr. Nuri al-Maliki, the delegation conveyed good wishes to Ireland and the Irish people.
I reassured the delegation of the continued support of Ireland and the EU to help the new national unity government in Iraq to achieve unity, peace and prosperity for the people of Iraq. In the course of our discussions, I raised the matter of the murder of Margaret Hassan and I asked for assistance in this issue.
I will attend the ASEM VI summit in Helsinki on 11 September. I will also travel to Berlin on 9 October for a meeting with Chancellor Merkel. On 20 October, I will travel to Finland for an informal meeting of heads of state or Government. I will also meet the President of the European Commission and the college of commissioners on 8 November in Brussels. I will attend the European Council on 14 and 15 December.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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When the Taoiseach met the Iraqi delegation, did he inform the members of which side he was on with regard to the Iraqi war? It seems to vary depending on to whom the Taoiseach is speaking. Did the Taoiseach raise the disturbing accounts of abuse of human rights? There are reported accounts of massacre of civilians. Has the Taoiseach made any complaint in this regard to the US authorities?
Does the Taoiseach accept now, three years on, that the invasion of Iraq was an unmitigated disaster for a majority of the people? The violence is worsening every day, and horror follows horror on a daily basis. The work of the suicide bombers is threatening to create a sectarian conflict in the country. At least with the benefit of hindsight, does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the invasion has been disastrous?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte knows the Irish position in the two years that led up to the war, when we were on the UN Security Council. Our diplomats, and the Ministers of the time, did everything they could to avoid a war in the first place. That was the Irish position. We did some very good work on the Security Council, and our respected ambassador, Mr. Richard Ryan, chaired committees on the Security Council and put in an extraordinary effort to avoid the conflict, particularly without an explicit UN resolution.
When we were not on the Security Council, we did not have the same say on the issue. History will record that the work of Ambassador Ryan in particular was very helpful. It was helpful because he had good relationships and he was a senior diplomat. He tried hard to pull the Security Council together. That was not going to work later on anyway, as the American and British Governments had decided what to do.
My meeting with the representatives of these groups was not long, but I was struck by their determination to try to make a very difficult situation work and make the democratic process work. They pointed out that, unfortunately, their history has for hundreds of years, with various invasions and conflicts, always been horrendously violent. It is a sad predicament. All we can do is hope that with the current efforts of the United Nations, and Iraq's own administration, some sense of reasoning can be brought to the matter.
It is a very difficult position. The picture painted by the Deputy is the reality today, including suicide bombers trying to find locations where they can kill the maximum number of people. They attack places of worship, and how they can top that I do not know. The international community, especially those members who were so anxious to participate in the first place, should not abandon them now. There are many UN resolutions. The international community must try to assist them, not just abandon them in the short term because that is one of their biggest concerns as they move forward.
While my meeting with them was brief, I specifically mentioned some of the atrocities, the fact that the world looks at all these matters and that they cannot very well speak about some of the issues that happened and not follow issues in the future. I specifically raised that in the context of the Margaret Hassan case where we have been active on behalf of the family, both living in Kenmare in Ireland, in the UK and elsewhere, to achieve progress on this. The leader of the delegation gave an undertaking that they would try to help in this case. The assistance we seek in this case on behalf of her family is to find her remains. To try to do that at least for the Hassan family would do much to show people their humane concern.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Arising from Deputy Rabbitte's correct comment about the horrific incidents occurring in Iraq, did the Taoiseach raise with the delegation the issue, raised in this House on a number of occasions, of the apparently scandalous fraud that has gone on in the spending of the money — €23 billion — for the reconstruction of Iraq? I understand that 363 tonnes of $100 bills were shipped to Iraq and that there was a case being made for a UN investigation into the serious allegations of fraud in the way that money was being spent and misused. Obviously, the visiting delegation would know only too well the difficulties being experienced by ordinary people in Iraq because no facilities have been provided with the result that terrorism and that kind of activity has cut loose. Did the Taoiseach raise that with the delegation?
Obviously, Mr. Balkenende's Government's time is at an end and a general election has been called in Holland. Is it the Taoiseach's view that of the small number of remaining countries where a referendum is required in respect of the European Constitution, nothing will happen until after the French general election and after the general election in Holland, a country where there were two difficulties in the context of its referendum result which were more local than European? Britain obviously has a problem with holding a referendum on this given the run in to its general election. The Taoiseach confirmed in the House that there probably will not be a referendum in this country until after the next general election.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have moved well outside the questions before us.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a European matter on Questions Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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No. There is one question which asks when the Taoiseach expects to meet the President of the European Commission, but it does not say anything about the matter raised.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The heading is European questions.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It broadens it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is the last day of Taoiseach's questions for this session.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will never move through questions if Deputy Kenny takes that broad approach. On account of it being the last day of Taoiseach's questions,——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle will not have this again until next October. Will he show some leniency from his exalted position in that Chair? What is wrong with him?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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——I am showing Deputy Kenny leniency on all his questions.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach knows the answers to these questions anyway and he is only too willing to give that valuable information to the nation.
Tim O'Malley (Limerick East, Progressive Democrats)
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A real Mayo man.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the first issue about the UN involvement, all these matters must be watched carefully. I know, from the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, that there has been regular discussions at the foreign affairs meetings about much of the activities and the UN involvement in them.
On the European Constitution, I had the opportunity of speaking to the Finnish Prime Minister who took over the European Presidency the other day. Having analysed their own positions, more countries are firming up their support for the European Constitution and it is in a stronger position than it was a year ago. Chancellor Angela Merkel and others are probably part of that reason. Finland will ratify, which will bring it to 16 countries. Another one will probably do so. Others are committed to do it as well. The British position was always that they would do it if everybody else did and that they would put the effort into it.
What will happen now is that people will wait. The Dutch situation could improve the position of the European Constitution. Regardless of whether it will, that is the generally held view. How the French deal with it will probably be the crucial factor. Will they try to seek to amend it, which a year on people realise will be much more difficult than some thought? Recently I noted that some are changing their positions, even from what they stated six months ago. They realise that cherry picking will not work. We will just have to wait for what happens next summer regarding the French position.
It will come back to the ratification of the European Constitution in some slightly amended format. There is no support, as Deputy Kenny will know from his own group, for opening up a convention. If the Dutch or the French need an annexe, change, clarification or schedule, that can happen. There is nothing wrong with that.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Like Ireland got.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. That is allowed within the procedures. People do not want to unravel all the good work that Deputy Gormley did on the convention, which I acknowledged, and to go back down that road again. I think it will come around.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Following the passing earlier this morning of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2006, has the Taoiseach any plans to discuss with his EU counterparts Ireland joining the battle groups?
Following his visit to Finland, the Taoiseach acknowledged that the present draft of the European Constitution will not be adopted but he stated that there would probably be some alteration of some sort. Has he given any thought to that and what exactly he meant by some alteration of some sort?
Will the Taoiseach redraft or raise the present status of the Seville declaration given that it clearly stated that Irish troops would not be participating in overseas operations except where there was authorisation of the UN and there is now a long litany of language as to how Irish troops might participate overseas? Will the Taoiseach be revisiting and defining the Seville declaration so that it has some meaning?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to go into the Defence (Amendment) Bill other than to state — I discussed this with my Finnish colleague — there is a significant movement from all of these countries, the former neutral countries, to involve themselves in the battle group on humanitarian issues and not to encounter the difficulties we had previously in Bosnia Herzegovina and other countries. We will be able to play our part in that and it is good that we do so.
The Seville declaration is clear and that would form the basis of the European Constitution in whatever form. That will remain in it. It does not require definition. It is clear. I stated in this House at that time what it meant.
I cannot be specific about what amendments the Dutch or the French might examine. There is a live debate in both countries about the kinds of things that perhaps they would look to include in the debate. They must come to the conclusion of that. I am almost certain that will not happen until after the Dutch general election in the autumn and after the French presidential election next year.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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On a point of order, did the Taoiseach state "the former neutral countries"? He stated that, did he not? He stated "the former neutral countries".
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said the countries——
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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He stated "former neutral", did he not?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure if I did or not.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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What if I did? They have changed their position, as Deputy Gormley will know. There is a live debate in Sweden and Finland about joining NATO. They are changing their position fundamentally.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are not. We will find ourselves in a very different position from that group. The reality is they have moved their position whereas we have not.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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During his meeting with the Iraqi parliamentary delegation, did the Taoiseach seek an account of the level of civilian casualties since the commencement of the war in Iraq? Is he aware the number is estimated at 43,000? Does he have information to shed light on the factual position? In light of his special facilitation of the ongoing war in Iraq, does the Taoiseach think it is incumbent on him to establish the true reality of civilian deaths and injuries?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not discuss those issues with the parliamentary delegation.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach seek the information?
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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How many Irish nationals live in Iraq? Has the State official lines of contact with them?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Our embassy has a small number. I recall seeing them at the time of the two kidnappings with the Bigley and Hassan families. There are Irish nationals in Iraq and contact is maintained. Those who are there sought to stay. The number is small but contact is maintained.