Dáil debates

Tuesday, 27 June 2006

Ceisteanna — Questions.

Interdepartmental Committees.

2:30 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the May 2006 meeting of the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnership; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20933/06]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and public private partnership; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22691/06]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnership. [23314/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and public private partnership; when the next meeting is due; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23349/06]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and public private partnership; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24573/06]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.

There was no meeting of the cross-departmental team during May. The team last met on 13 June. The items on the agenda were water supply, airports and ports. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government presented an overview and update of the water services investment programme. The Department of Transport gave presentations on State airports and the national seaport infrastructure. The team also noted progress in several areas including the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill, the roads programme and broadband. The team is scheduled to meet again on Thursday, 6 July.

The team's role is to assist in progressing and resolving issues related to infrastructure planning and delivery. Given the significance of the cross-departmental co-ordination in securing progress in this area, the team plays a valuable role in identifying appropriate issues to be addressed, and where necessary, in proposing possible solutions for consideration by the Cabinet committee and the Government. The lead responsibility remains with the relevant Minister and Department in respect of policy areas and individual infrastructural projects.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Following the meeting of 13 June did the cross-departmental team consider the question of the confusion over Cork Airport being released free of debt to work independently? Did the team consider a qualitative independent analysis of the implications of the cost and consequences of the proposed new second runway for Dublin Airport? Strong concern is being expressed that a quality cost benefit analysis should be carried out. Will the Taoiseach confirm that is happening?

Last week the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, said the next National Development Programme 2007-13 would be based not on the regions but on the national spatial strategy. In the BMW region the Government's NDP spending programme shows a shortfall of €3.65 billion. Will that money, previously destined for cross-departmental and infrastructural projects in that region be made up and allocated to the region as the Government intended it to be, regardless of whether the new NDP is based on the spatial strategy?

Did the cross-departmental team consider the statistics which the Economic and Social Research Institute confirmed this morning, showing that house price growth has averaged 15% over the past ten years and the average house price has now risen to €280,000? In 1996 the difference in average house prices between Dublin and the rest of the country was €10,000, whereas now it is €130,000. That is a matter for serious consideration for Government given that last year only 1,833 affordable houses were acquired, only 730 shared ownership transactions were completed and 57 fully or partially redeveloped sites on foot of Part 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. These are serious matters for hundreds of thousands of people. Will the Taoiseach say whether the cross-departmental team considered these startling statistics?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will try to cover all the points the Deputy has raised. Airports were discussed at the last meeting, particularly all aspects of airport development. There was no particular discussion about Cork Airport where the issue is not confusion but that the airport authorities want to get the best deal they can for development in the overall structure. The airport authority must consider the whole picture but wants to resolve this problem.

Aer Rianta invested heavily in the new terminal in Cork Airport which must be reflected in the new figures. The Dublin Airport Authority cannot undermine its own balance but all sides are anxious to resolve this problem and believe they will. The figures and analysis of that have been carried out in great detail for now and the future.

The new runway at Dublin Airport was not on the agenda. There have been a number of developments at the airport — pier D is under construction and will be open by Christmas 2008, the temporary facilities have been opened, the second runway has received planning permission and work is advancing on the second terminal. The location of a possible third terminal, in the longer term, is being considered. This is all designed to help the airport to move from its current position. Last year, the airport was working on the assumption that it would have approximately 18.5 million passengers in 2006. I understand that, based on the likely figures for the first half of this year — we are just a few days away from that — the number of passengers will probably be higher than 18.5 million. The airport is examining the infrastructure that will be needed over the next 14 years or so to accommodate approximately 30 million passengers per annum. It is not long since it was estimated that the number of passengers would reach 10 million by 2010 — there has been a significant change since then. That is where it is at. I am not aware of the analysis that is being done on the runway, to be honest, although I know all the projections show it will be badly needed. I assume the airport authority is working on it, although I have not been dealing with it in that level of detail because I was not on the committee.

The proposed new national development plan is under discussion. Deputy Kenny raised two issues relating to the national spatial strategy. The planning policy frameworks are in place. It was decided last year that the regional dimension of the next national development plan, which is being prepared, will be broadly based on the national spatial strategy. The priorities of the national spatial strategy are recognised in the regional planning guidelines and are included in the ten-year transport plan. They will also be included in the national development plan. I will pass on the Deputy's point about a certain figure in that regard. It is probably being considered in the discussions taking place at a very detailed level. It is hoped the new national development plan will be finalised towards the end of the year. The plan will need to address the investment necessary if we are to maintain national competitiveness within a sustainable economic and budgetary framework. It is clear that the issues raised by Deputy Kenny are key to that region. I think it can be dealt with within that particular area.

As the Minister said, the next national development plan will strongly support the delivery of the national spatial strategy. In particular, it will support the development of the gateways of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Wexford, Letterkenny, Derry, Dundalk, Limerick, Sligo and the midlands gateway of Athlone, Tullamore and Mullingar. It will also encompass the hubs and the rural areas and will deal with the issues of regional development. That covers the point made by Deputy Kenny. The preparation of the new plan is being co-ordinated by the Department of Finance and the Minister for Finance. Practically everyone is involved in the preparation of the plan.

The Economic and Social Research Institute, which was contracted to conduct an ex ante evaluation of the proposed plan's investment priorities, has submitted a report to the Department. I presume the points made by Deputy Kenny were considered by the ESRI in its report. Housing was not on the agenda at the last meeting, but I discussed those issues at length here within the last week, as well as at a meeting of the housing infrastructure committee on 17 May last. The disparities between Dublin and the greater Dublin areas were highlighted on those occasions. This problem is being created by over-concentration and over-development in the greater Dublin area. There is a need for clear policies building on the national spatial strategy and the programmes trying to attract new investment and move investment outside of Dublin.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach give us a sense of how much of the work of the cross-departmental team is concerned with housing? I know it is not possible to go back over the various minutes of meetings. Will the Taoiseach agree that in response to previous questions on this matter, the housing issue was not a major concern of the cross-departmental team? Will he refer last week's Permanent TSB-ESRI report, which demonstrated an increase of 300% in house prices in the past decade to the team?

I hope the Taoiseach will confirm that housing is an integral part of our overall infrastructure. Why is it that tens of thousands of families are being denied the opportunity to obtain a home through either social and affordable means or other provisions? Affordability is a critical issue, particularly with soaring house prices. Will the Taoiseach ask the team to examine what measures it can introduce to seek to limit the massive profits of developers? With approximately 44,000 families on local authority waiting lists, will the Taoiseach set a definite target so no one must remain on such a waiting list for over 18 months? Will the Taoiseach agree that is what we should be aspiring to and working towards?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will bring the issues to the attention of the line Ministers as it is a matter for them to answer in detail. I will bring the Deputy's views to the cross-departmental committee. It has set out what it will do in all these areas. It is for the responsible Ministers to deal with them through parliamentary questions. They are well aware of these issues. The main issue is affordability which is linked to supply and other related issues. I will bring any points made in the House to the attention of the committee.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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If I heard the Taoiseach correctly, he said the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships has a crucial role in identifying appropriate issues to be addressed. How is that role fulfilled in identifying global infrastructural needs in our society? Does the Taoiseach accept that social and physical infrastructure is disastrously lacking in areas with the most rapid population growth?

Photo of Brian Lenihan JnrBrian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's party will not even support a second runway at Dublin Airport.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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There is no call for that from the Minister, Deputy Lenihan.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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With respect to the Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, he would be much better off finding school places for the 100 children who have none in the Dublin West constituency than venturing to Dublin Airport where there is already enough capacity. However, that is for another day.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy come back to the question?

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How can the Government allow a situation develop where thousands of homes in west Dublin, for example, have no community facility where people can meet?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Detailed questions about particular areas should be addressed directly to the line Minister. These are general questions.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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My question is in the way of being general but it is honing in on the identification of appropriate issues. The creation of social infrastructure alongside the thousands of homes being built is an appropriate issue. I am asking the Taoiseach about the role of this committee in that.

It is a similar situation in burgeoning commuter towns. This morning I was in Laytown and Bettystown in east Meath where 98 children will not have a classroom in which to start school in September. That is incredible.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Again, Deputy, that question should be addressed to the Minister for Education and Science.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How does the Taoiseach propose to direct the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public private partnerships to deal with this critical situation?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Taoiseach owes Deputy Joe Higgins an apology too.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The public capital programme deals directly with that area. We are now spending the better part of €6.5 billion on infrastructural deficits and new infrastructure in areas, be it water, sea ports infrastructure, airports or road investment. All local authorities have area development plans and these take account of the facilities that are necessary.

As Deputy Higgins is aware, as he was present, I recently had the opportunity to attend the launch of the Fingal County Council plan — many other plans have been produced also. It is a comprehensive plan setting out how it sees Fingal develop over the next ten to 15 years, in terms of housing, shopping, offices, industry, schools and facilities in this area with a rapidly developing population.

Ten or 15 years ago it was thought there would be only 3.5 million people in this country by 2010 but because of the strength of the economy and the effect of Government policies, that estimate has changed dramatically. That has been reflected and it has been necessary to build a historic number of new schools, roads and facilities, including community centres, which are not part of this committee's remit, but which are part of the plan in the area to which the Deputy referred. These are all crucial elements. Those plans are developed. Local authorities make the cases for them.

The cross-departmental team does not deal with community centres but is concerned with big projects to provide the necessary infrastructure across Departments and the other agencies involved through the managers' system. It has a significant impact on the high level of investment in various forms of infrastructure, including airports, rail, the metro, the Luas and roads, which are being developed under that umbrella.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Are schools under its umbrella?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Schools come under the capital programme. While, once a year, the team reports on the schools programme, it is separately handled by the Department of Education and Science. The dramatic increase in resources at primary, secondary and third levels is due to the increased population numbers. We are now at a stage where more projects are being developed in one year in primary and secondary level schools than was the case in any ten-year period in the history of the State. This shows the enormous increase in investment in these areas.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Given the high level of infrastructural deficit areas not referred to by the Taoiseach, why did no meeting take place in June? For example, in terms of waste management, three quarters of recyclables go abroad and there is a lack of producer responsibility. Does it occur to the Taoiseach, in speaking of the issues on the agenda, that we will need probably a 60% reduction in CO2 emissions over the next 50 years? That is the general global figure and, unfortunately, it has been revised upwards as more evidence becomes available. Does that impact on his considerations in the committee meetings in regard to infrastructure?

The Taoiseach referred to water supply. Did he mean to say, "water management" rather than "water supply"? Is it not the case that if he is serious about that issue, the priority should be management rather than supply? Given that there are budgetary constraints, does the Taoiseach regard it as acceptable, in dealing with infrastructure projects, that there is no consideration of cost-benefit analysis? Is this not an issue the committee should address in regard to the provision of such facilities as housing and schools as well as expensive projects such as the runway at Dublin Airport? Is the Taoiseach not concerned that there has been no cost-benefit analysis, not to mention a health assessment, of such a major project, financially and in terms of its impact in the area in which it is planned to be constructed? Given that the Department of Finance has said a cost-benefit analysis should form part of all infrastructural developments of this order, why has none been conducted to date?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sargent's question relates to the details of a specific project.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Why is a cost-benefit analysis not required for all major projects?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should put down a question to the relevant Minister on the details of this matter. On energy and waste issues, the cross-departmental team has focused its discussions in recent months on climate change and the overall policy direction to be given to the Environmental Protection Agency in preparing the second national allocation for the emissions trading scheme. The deliberations of the cross-departmental team helped prepare the way for the Government's careful consideration of the necessary balance between environmental protection and the protection of competitiveness. It brought forward recommendations to the EPA in regard to the average allocation of allowances and argued that 10% should be held back by the EPA for new entrants. It also recommended that close attention be paid to the EPA's allocation process for the protection of competitiveness in sectors exposed to global competition, that firms which rationalise are not unduly penalised and that closing installations will be allowed retain up to 75% of their intended allocation for future years. It further advised that the Government should purchase allowances on the international market to ensure we are in possession of sufficient allowances to comply with the Kyoto Protocol.

All these issues have been under discussion by the cross-departmental team for some time. If they were not discussed at the June meeting it is that——

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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How much will all that cost?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——on that occasion the team was concerned with water supply, airports and ports. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources recently launched an initiative to increase the use of renewable energy. I am sure Deputy Sargent has put down questions to him on the details of that programme, which aims to more than double the contribution of renewable sources of electricity production, from 5% two years ago to more than 13% by 2010.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I asked about reducing CO2 emissions, not about renewable energy.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach should be allowed to respond without interruption.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is in line with the EU directive on the promotion of electricity production from renewable energy resources and our aim to increase the total capacity of renewable energy technologies to 1,450 MW.

Responsibility for water services lies with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and work is ongoing in this area by the cross-departmental team. In particular, it considered the need for a continuing expansion of water supply and waste water infrastructure and a strategy is being pursued to ensure capacity is put in place to facilitate economic development and housing construction to respond to population growth. The necessary funding will be provided under the national development plan to build on the major improvement in recent years in the quality and scale of the water services infrastructure. This improvement has provided crucial support in all sectors of the economy.

An enormous amount of capital investment is going into this area, not only in terms of the major projects that have been completed in Dublin, Cork and Limerick but also in about 100 other developments throughout the State where work is taking place this year. In addition, many other projects are being planned and approved for development in the next year or two.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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With regard to transport infrastructure and its delivery, the focus has very much been in the hinterland of Dublin and, to a lesser extent, the other urban centres around the country. In light of this, what steps will be taken in the forthcoming national development plan by the departmental team to ensure delivery in the BMW region? It appears that a cooking of the books is taking place. For example, if one looks at Iarnród Éireann, it has invested in the BMW region by building maintenance sheds in Drogheda and Portlaoise to service trains that are serving the southern and eastern regions, but not the BMW——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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A detailed question would be more appropriately put to the Minister for Transport.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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What is the committee doing to deliver infrastructure in the BMW region, including roads, rail and particularly the western rail corridor and the Athlone-Mullingar rail line? Delivery does not seem to be part of the ethos of the Government when it comes to the BMW region.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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To answer Deputy Naughten's question, one only has to look at the roads system. If one looks at the list of projects for this year outside the Dublin area, it includes the Dundalk-Border road, the Monaghan bypass, the Castleblayney bypass, the Edgeworthstown bypass, which was opened last week, the Kinnegad-Athlone road, the Ballyshannon-Bundoran road, the Mullingar bypass, the Mullingar-Belvedere road, the Cavan bypass and the Letterkenny bypass, all of which are in the BMW region. That list does not take account of some of the bigger projects. The next stage of the road Dublin-Athlone road is proceeding, as is the enormous stretch from Athlone to Ballinasloe on the Galway main road.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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That is a very important stretch of road.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. It will cost in the order of €400 million. It is an enormous project and is moving ahead, in the planning stage, at pace. Work has also begun on the Atlantic corridor, linking rail and road. The first section of the rail line will link Sligo and Ennis. Work on the road network between Limerick and Galway is also advancing.

These projects are enormously costly. Approximately €1.5 billion is being spent on road infrastructure. All these projects, which are enormously important, are moving ahead apace. It is important that these projects are advanced at planning level in local authorities so that if other projects are delayed, they can be quickly supplemented. This year, for example, the N3 project, to which considerable resources were allocated, should have started and that money must now be used on other projects. I do not know for how long the delay will continue but it is important that other projects are ready to proceed. There is no attempt by Government to save money, the object is to spend the full infrastructural budget so the more advanced projects are, for example, the Clare-Galway road in the west, the better.

The cross-departmental team and the agencies are determined that Transport 21 will be delivered on time. Most projects are now being delivered on time or ahead of time, as well as coming in on budget, with very few exceptions. Of the last 20 projects, only two went slightly over budget and in both cases, for very good reasons — there were many difficulties. A total of 18 projects were within budget and all were delivered ahead of time, bar one. That process is continuing.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach mentioned ports having been discussed at the 30 June meeting. Perhaps he might expand on that, stating which ports and developments the cross-departmental team discussed. In Killybegs recently, €400 million worth of trawlers were tied up. Fishermen and businessmen made the point that the port is not open for business owing to the Dublin-run bureaucracy attached to such facilities. It means that business worth millions of euro is being lost, and the cross-departmental team should consider that. The Government has spent substantial sums on the port, totalling €50 million or more. It is not open for business, and that should be examined seriously.

I would also like to ask the Taoiseach about one of the largest — if not the largest — infrastructure projects in Europe in many years, which far exceeded its budget and which affects the Taoiseach's constituency, namely, the Dublin Port tunnel. Has the cross-departmental team examined what appears to be the $64,000 question? How does one get 2,500 or 3,000 trucks out of that tunnel and into the slow lane to join the M50 without the wholesale disruption of traffic? Every taxi driver I meet——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It would be more appropriate to table a detailed question for the Minister for Transport.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will know this because the cross-departmental team will have considered the issue. The project is worth €800 million. Its entrance and exit appear to be the wrong side of the infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of cars and other traffic driving out to the airport will be faced——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a general question, and such details are for the Minister for Transport.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In that case my question is this. Did the cross-departmental team consider the practicalities of the entrance to and exit from the port tunnel, which by all standards will cause traffic chaos if implemented as planned? Did the team consider what everyone else is discussing?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The team has done a great deal of good work on ports in recent years, all of it predicated on their importance, since we depend on seaborne trade. Ports are of great economic significance to the country's prosperity, being vital gateways for commercial freight and sea passengers. Almost all our overseas trade goes by sea, underlining ports' commercial significance and strategic importance.

That point is not always well understood, many people believing that airports are more important because they move through them personally. Measured by volume, 99% of Ireland's foreign trade uses maritime supply chains. Excluding Northern ports, through which a fair proportion of our trade still moves, the value of imports and exports through sea ports last year was estimated at €130 billion compared with approximately €7 billion through airports.

The cross-departmental team has been attempting to develop clear policies to equip the port sector and stakeholders to meet national and regional capacity and service needs over the next ten, 20 or 30 years. In particular, it seeks clearer, more focused, commercial mandates for the ports and boards to overcome some of their difficulties, including what Deputy Kenny mentioned, the encouragement of private sector investment and involvement, sanction in principle for the use of non-core assets to fund new port development, the encouragement of continued healthy competitive conditions, better consultation, and dispute resolution. It has examined in detail what will happen when Dublin Port hits its capacity limits and issues relating to the Harbours Act 1996. It has formulated a clear strategy to develop some of the other ports. There is a major development plan for the port in Drogheda, and for Greenore which has a different structure being a more private port. They are trying to maximise the use of the ports and to resolve some difficulties.

The Dublin Port tunnel is a major new element of the Dublin road network and will significantly benefit traffic flow in the Dublin area. We are very conscious that issues will arise following the completion of the port tunnel, pending the upgrade of the M50. The port tunnel was first mooted in 1992. At that time the issue was two ports, and there was a big row over the matter in the early 1990s when I was Minister for Finance. People should remember what the argument was about. It was proposed that the State build one and the private sector the other. The State built its tunnel but the private sector abandoned its contribution entirely. The argument concerned which project the State should build. The State decided to build the airport tunnel because it fitted in with the plan in 1990-91 to commence a route from Rosslare to Belfast. The other tunnel was the one going from Alexandra Basin to Heuston Station. At one stage, the private sector was well ahead in its preparatory work and was very interested in carrying it out. However, it abandoned the tunnel project in 1993 on the basis there would be insufficient traffic for two tunnels — we all know whether that was an excellent call. It was always envisaged that two tunnels would be built, a view with which I concur and in which I have tried to interest people. I still believe that no matter how late it is, another tunnel is needed because it is the only way to remove heavy traffic from Dublin. I still believe it should be built at some stage.

In light of the fact that only one tunnel is being built and that the M50 upgrade has commenced but will take between three and four years to complete, Dublin City Council has prepared its traffic strategy for the management of heavy goods vehicles, which will be implemented following the opening of the port tunnel. The council has put a considerable amount of work into this over the last 12 months to ensure optimal use of the port tunnel by HGVs, minimise adverse effects of movements within the city and manage the movement of vehicles outside the city. However, there will be difficulties in the short term. Deputy Kenny and I know the road. Based on the volumes, there will be difficulties until the M50 upgrade is completed, which will take between three and four years, until barrier-free access using more modern technology is provided, which will take a few years, and until the huge interchange on the Belfast Road above the port tunnel is built. There will obviously be difficulties until these necessary infrastructural projects are completed. Work on the M50 upgrade has commenced. The plaza, the introduction of better electronics and the new interchange are all essential parts of the infrastructure. Perhaps they are not necessary based on the current volume of vehicles but they will certainly be necessary by the end of this decade. I have successfully pressed in the capital programmes for these projects to take place. They can all be completed by 2010. It will take another four years to complete them but the interchange, the upgrade of the M50 and the plaza are all necessary.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like to make a point.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I would prefer to call on Deputy Rabbitte, who has not spoken yet.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When the trucks exit the port tunnel, they must go through the fast lane onto the slow lane to get onto the M50.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for the Minister for Transport.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They must cross from the slow to the fast lane to get into the tunnel. This will be a practical problem of enormous proportions.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before the Taoiseach replies, Deputy Rabbitte will ask a brief question. We are running out of time.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Like many motorists, I am intrigued by the question Deputy Kenny raised. Is it not the case that the penalty points system will exacerbate this because the trucks emerging from the tunnel have to cross to the left lane. Will the effect of this not be that the traffic will be backed up to Whitehall?

Is it true that, due to the absence of provision of certain safety mechanisms for the release of noxious fumes, the tunnel will only be able to function at 20% of its capacity when operational?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the first point, I do not want to answer for our traffic engineers, particularly those who worked out the strategy for how traffic will work in Dublin city.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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Someone must answer for them.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have put a great deal of work into this and I am sure they have dealt with the issue. From the driving point of view, the alternative of staying in the outer lane would not make sense for trucks coming out of the tunnel at the point north of Santry.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The tunnel's traffic could come out on the inside lane.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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These questions would be more appropriate to the Minister for Transport.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The two tunnels come out on the middle of the road——

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They do.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——and one must cross the lanes to get into the left lane.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter does not arise from these questions.

Photo of Seymour CrawfordSeymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It will arise when someone is killed.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If trucks must cross lanes, then they must. I will not get——

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is easily known that the Ceann Comhairle takes the new route to Monaghan.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It was a good investment by the Government.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Nor does he need to drive in the tunnel.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Detailed questions should be addressed directly to the Minister.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a good road, as there are bypasses of all three towns for the Ceann Comhairle to use.

Photo of Tom KittTom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very good road.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have heard presentations on the Seveso directive on noxious fumes and so on. That matter was gone through some years ago. I understand that the traffic flows and all of those matters have been addressed and resolved to satisfaction. We cannot pack the tunnel with vehicles, but the capacity has been worked out in each case.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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What is the Taoiseach's reply on whether the tunnel will function at 20% of its capacity?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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All of the issues around the Seveso directive and the capacity of the tunnel based on number of trucks per hour and how to schedule for such were worked out approximately four years ago. From the presentation, I understand that nothing has changed in respect of how to deal with this matter. The team has not cited it to the committee as a new difficulty. It has not said there are any new difficulties.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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At what percentage does the committee consider the tunnel will work?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Those questions are more appropriate to the line Minister.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The number of vehicles per hour was the measure used by the team.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do we know what will be the number of vehicles per hour as a percentage of capacity?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We did not go into detail on the question.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Off the top of my head, I do not know. The team does not consider it to be a major difficulty based on present laws.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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All of its members will finish up permanently in the Department.