Dáil debates
Thursday, 15 June 2006
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is proposed to take No. 13, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a Council decision concerning the signing of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iceland and the Kingdom of Norway on the surrender procedure between the member states of the European Union and Iceland and Norway; No. 21, Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 [Seanad] — Second Stage, resumed; No. 24, Health (Nursing Homes) (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Second Stage, resumed; and No. 2, National Oil Reserves Agency Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 13 shall be decided without debate and that parliamentary questions scheduled for Wednesday, 21 June 2006, on the EU Council meeting in Brussels shall not be disallowed as being anticipatory of statements on such Council meeting scheduled to be taken on that day, and shall be moved to be taken first as ordinary oral questions to the Taoiseach on that day.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 13 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with parliamentary questions on Wednesday, 21 June 2006, agreed to? Agreed.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the agreement on the social partnership. It would be churlish not to recognise the considerable work that has gone into negotiating an agreement. However, why has the Government not made an effort to address the democratic deficit in the way this agreement is put in place? It contains numerous promises of legislation for the future. Is it not time we had a more transparent and open system for deciding our priorities for ten years into the future? Is it not extraordinary that the Oireachtas has never been consulted about this agreement and was never consulted about or debated the last agreement?
An agreement has been put in place which purports to set out a framework for legislation over the next ten years and the Oireachtas has no say in it. We are being seriously by-passed. This is not a new topic. The Government was well aware of the concern in the House about this issue before it commenced the process of negotiating the partnership agreement. We are not the only ones who are left out; the views of the public service, consumers, parents——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I would prefer that the Deputy did not debate it. A brief comment is allowed.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The point I am making is entirely in order. It refers to the ordering of our business——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not in order. The Chair is allowing a brief comment this morning but we cannot debate it. The Deputy should confine himself to a brief comment.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is a brief comment and it would be more brief if I was allowed to complete it. I was coming to a conclusion. However, I contest your attempt to rule that it is out of order——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are welcome to contest it, Deputy, but the Chair has ruled on it.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is definitely in order because the document contains numerous commitments.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not in order. If the Deputy reads Standing Order 26, he will see that it is not in order.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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This is legislation promised in a Government document. The Government has signed up to it.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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You should name the legislation and make a brief comment.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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There is employment rights legislation, pension services legislation, planning legislation——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a Second Stage speech on this. I will listen to the Deputy and then I will hear a brief comment from Deputy McManus.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Chair is making up rules as he goes along.
Michael AhernRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Numerous legislative measures are promised. I wish to raise a second issue.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will call you for the second issue. I will hear Deputy McManus on the same issue if she wishes to comment briefly and then call Deputy Sargent.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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On behalf of the Labour Party, I welcome the conclusion of an agreement. However, it is astonishing that an agreement that extends over ten years and covers a swathe of public policy has not at any point been subject to public scrutiny. We still have not seen the agreement. It appears that the media received this information ahead of the public representatives in this House who have been excluded from the process. Is that acceptable to the Tánaiste? Does she believe it produces political accountability? Will she outline what time has been provided to consider the terms of the agreement and how soon we can have this debate? What does she intend to do to remedy this gross deficit in democratic accountability?
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Your contribution, a Cheann Comhairle, in which you asked what legislation this is related to makes the point very well. This House has been excluded from the process of negotiating the partnership agreement. If there is a debate on this matter, will we also be allowed to vote on it? Could an Oireachtas committee have a role in engaging with the partnership process so there is democratic accountability? The process has a laudable objective but it lacks the democratic mandate that this House brings to the proceedings. The process is not yet finished as there is no agreement on the agriculture pillar. For the remainder of the process we must ensure we go forward recognising, as is recognised in Sweden, that this partnership agreement does not take account of the elephant in the room, that is, the energy crisis this country is facing, more than any other European country. Will the Tánaiste allow an Oireachtas committee to complete the process which would be helpful in ensuring the plan, if it is for ten years, thinks about aspects that are not apparent in 2006? I do not see the process as having done that. While it is important there is agreement it is equally important that we have sufficient planning to meet the needs of ten years hence rather than the needs of the day.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I welcome the successful conclusion to the social partnership negotiations which have been ongoing for a considerable period. Initially it was hoped to have concluded those negotiations before St. Patrick's Day. Three months post St. Patrick's Day they have been concluded with the exception, as Deputy Sargent has acknowledged, of the farming pillar. The agreement has been concluded with three of the four pillars. There are issues around democratic accountability and I have acknowledged that in the House previously. It would be a good thing if the House was to debate, subject to the agreement of the Whips, the agreement which has yet to be ratified by the various pillars. In any negotiations the Government clearly has a majority and, therefore, it negotiates on behalf of the country. On behalf of the majority in the House, I cannot see how one could have negotiations with a whole host of parties seeking to negotiate with the different pillars. It would be a good thing if we were to have a debate in the House before the summer recess on the partnership agreement. It is a ten-year agreement. The pay element is for 27 months but many other aspects of the agreement are for a period of ten years. That is a good thing. We have to think in terms of that period to get perspectives on many issues particularly on many social policy issues.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Government promised as part of its legislative programme, reflecting commitments in the Progressive Democrats and the Fianna Fáil manifestos, that as part of a general reform of the court systems there would be reform of the various court elements through new legislation to reduce the delay between charging and trial. Today we read there are up to 5,000 drink driving cases at risk of being dismissed because of delays in the court system and delays in bringing forward those cases for trial. Surely this indicates an extraordinary lack of urgency in delivering what was promised five years ago in respect of reforming the way the courts address the delay between charging and trial.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a debate on the issue. We will hear about the legislation if it is promised.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is a core objective of Government to improve road safety and to deal with this issue.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That may well be but there are other ways it can be raised.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Obviously this matter will be adjudicated on in the courts and I, therefore, do not wish to comment on the specific issue. The Transport Bill is coming before the House next week and a courts Bill is promised. My note says it is not possible to indicate at this stage when it will come before the House and I do not know whether it will deal with the specific issue.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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That commitment in the programme for Government has completely gone off the radar——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That matter does not arise.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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——and we are seeing the chickens coming home to roost.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will raise the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It looks as if we are facing into another fiasco.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy McManus and she is entitled to be heard without interruption.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I wish to raise two items. There are three weeks remaining in the session. According to the legislative programme, 16 Bills were promised for publication during the session. Four have been published. Does the Tánaiste feel like old mother Hubbard and that there is nothing in the legislative cupboard? Is that the problem? Certainly committees are idle. Legislation that is urgently needed includes the hepatitis C compensation scheme Bill, which the Taoiseach promised every effort would be made to deliver during this session. I cannot think of any issue more important than the effect contaminated blood products had on people's health.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry Deputy, we cannot have a debate on the issue.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The second point I wish to raise concerns the Barr tribunal report which was promised in March. The unfortunate John Carty was killed in 2000. The tribunal finished its hearings in 2004. Will the Tánaiste explain, since the tribunal was set up by the House, the reason for the delay? It is a mystery to everybody, certainly to those on this side of the House, as to what is causing the delay. Is it a matter of resources?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy allow the Tánaiste to respond?
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I would be grateful if we get some information on this matter because we are not getting answers by way of parliamentary questions.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Deputy will allow the Tánaiste to respond.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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In regard to the 16 pieces of legislation, the commitment is to publish those pieces of legislation before the start of the next session. Specifically in regard to the hepatitis C Bill, I hope to publish it next week. I am not briefed on the Barr report. It is not a legislative matter and I do not know the reason for the delay.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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This is the problem we have. The tribunal was established by the House, it may lead to legislation——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Deputy, we cannot have a debate on it. I suggest the Deputy submits a question to the Minister responsible.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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——and yet we are not being informed as to the reason for the delay. What is the point of establishing tribunals if we end up with information that is garnered not being made available to the public?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Sargent. I ask Deputy McManus not to disrupt the business of the House. Deputy Sargent has been called.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Report after report is being delayed.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I wish to ask about promised legislation and if it is promised given that approximately 5,000 drink driving cases are likely to be struck out.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That question has already been dealt with. I call Deputy Naughten.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Mr. A debacle highlighted the need for legislation.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we cannot go back over business that has already been dealt with.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am not going over business, I am asking for promised legislation on that matter so that in the event of those cases falling——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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What legislation, Deputy?
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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——the place is not overrun with drunk drivers.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Sargent to resume his seat.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I also want to ask about the electoral reform Bill.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste on the electoral reform Bill.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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That first issue needs to be addressed so we do not fall into this trap again.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The electoral reform Bill is the second legislation I want to ask about on the basis that it will give prisoners voting rights.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy does not have to debate the Bill now.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I imagine they will choose not to be located in Thornton Hall with the Minister for Justice, Equality, and Law Reform.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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On promised legislation——
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle should take Thursday morning off. He is very contrary. We would get on very fine without him here without any hassle on a Thursday morning.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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We need to get the air conditioning working here, a Cheann Comhairle.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Stagg, I take many of my rulings from comments made on how to conduct the business in the House.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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It is becoming a shouting match and I do not want it to be so. The electoral amendment Bill refers to prisoners being given votes. Will that Bill be published before it is decided to build in Thornton Hall?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The heads of that Bill were approved by the Government last December and this Bill will be published in this session.
Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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In light of reports this morning that schoolchildren are being used for tasting and evaluating food products without, in some cases, the consent of schools or parents and in light of the battle in the Tánaiste's Department in regard to vaccine trials, without the consent of guardians or parents of children, where is the foster care guardianship Bill? Will she ensure this type of abuse will be addressed in legislation?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The child care amendment Bill will be published this session.
Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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Is that before the start of the next session?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is what it means, before the start of the next session.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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May I ask the Tánaiste about two items of promised legislation? Today we were supposed to debate the Defence (Amendment) Bill but it has not been published. I understand it has not been brought to Cabinet. Can the Tánaiste give us any idea as to when we can expect it?
I wish to ask about two conflicting responses on promised legislation. Last week the Tánaiste told me here that we would have a Bill to facilitate the new children's hospital. I am glad the Cabinet has made a decision on that. The Taoiseach told me yesterday no legislation was needed. The Tánaiste might clarify if new legislation is going to be necessary to implement the new dispensation, or whether the Taoiseach has been telling the truth.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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With regard to the Defence (Amendment) Bill, I understand the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, is in Kosovo this week, so he will bring the Bill to the Cabinet next week.
Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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Is anyone protecting the country while he is away?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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In response to Deputy Costello, the children's hospital will require legislation.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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So the Taoiseach was wrong.
Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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Someone might inform him.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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There may be some confusion. The legislation has to do with the governance of the institution. This will be a State hospital.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Will the project be able to proceed without legislation?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes. The legislation relates merely to the governing structure we will put in place when the hospital is in existence. My Department will start drafting that legislation so the project can proceed without it. I do not know how quickly we can get the legislation prepared, but it will only be necessary for the governance of the hospital when it is in place.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The cancer control strategy recently published as part of the framework for quality cancer control looks for mandatory notification of cancer to be put in place through appropriate legislation. Is it envisaged that legislation will be in place in the lifetime of this Government?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Some of the issues dealt with in the cancer forum report will be dealt with in the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, legislation, which relates to standards, quality assurance and information. The heads of the Bill were published for consultation, and the consultation process concluded at the end of May. I hope to have the legislation later this year.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When the Tánaiste was on this side of the House she was, correctly, a strong advocate for accountability and transparency. Now that she is on the other side of the House, for however long, how does she address questions put down for her for answer in the House being transferred to an outside agency?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The legislation concerned is the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill, wherever it has gone. I remind the Tánaiste that accountability goes across the House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot discuss what the Deputy might like to say when the Bill comes before the House.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The fact the Tánaiste refuses repeatedly to answer questions on the record in the House is an abomination.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We answer more questions in our area, the health area, than does any other Department.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There are more questions to be asked. There will be more asked next year.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should confine himself to the Order of Business.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Department of Health and Children took over questions on nuclear energy.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy is a bit of a nuclear challenge himself.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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At the time of the budget, the Minister for Finance promised us a social investment fund to which the banks promised €25 million in lieu of the €100 million annual levy. The Minister indicated this would require legislation. Can the Tánaiste say if the Attorney General examined this issue? This fund is badly needed. Many community groups do not qualify for commercial lending from banks because the risk profile is too high. Apparently the banks have given their miserable €25 million contribution in return for dropping the €100 million levy——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must allow the Tánaiste to answer with regard to the legislation.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have only three weeks left, and the Minister for Finance promised us this in the budget.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The three weeks will be gone if we do not move on with the business.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am not aware of the specific commitment. The issue of legislation has not yet come before the Government.
Shane McEntee (Meath, Fine Gael)
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It was finally acknowledged yesterday that the north-eastern part of the country has the worst health services. It was also announced that a hospital centre of excellence will be built in the area, which I and Fine Gael have welcomed. However, it was also put clearly to us yesterday by the chief executive of the HSE that it will be on other people's heads if we do not accept their recommendations. Will the Tánaiste and Minister for Health say if during the nine years during which the hospital will be built, the hospitals already in Meath, Louth, Monaghan and Cavan will continue to be improved and have a standard as high as others in the country?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business. I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the Minister for Health and Children.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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Given today's revelations of the scandalous and exploitative practices of carrying out market research in schools for commercial companies, as well the creeping commercialisation in our education system——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question on education legislation? What legislation is the Deputy talking about?
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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This is a preamble. I am getting to that, but must put the matter in context.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not want to know the context. I want to know what legislation the Deputy is referring to.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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It is in light of an issue I raised last week regarding the protection of children from sexual predators and the Education Act 1998. Is legislation promised to amend this Act to stop commercialisation in our schools? Schools are being used for propaganda.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy should raise that issue with the Minister for Education and Science.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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I raised the matter of sexual predators with the Tánaiste last week. This is a bit of a cop-out.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy may ask only about promised legislation.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has not got much on the legislative programme. It only has one Bill, the Údarás na Gaeltachta Bill. Instead of answering my questions in the Dáil, the Department refers me to the website. Is this a new practice in the Department?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Bill does. When will the Bill be published?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Next year.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I want to raise the issue of the number of persons arrested, charged or awaiting trial under sections 1 or 2 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935. On Wednesday of last week in the Dáil, the Taoiseach indicated he thought the figure was 20, and said he would write to Deputy Kenny to give him the exact figure. The issue was again raised with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, when he was taking the Order of Business. He confirmed it was his understanding that the Taoiseach would write to Deputy Kenny.
Yesterday, in the House, I had a question on that issue for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and even at that stage, his response was that the information requested was not available. When in the name of goodness are we to have the answer?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It arises out of this Act, and that this information was promised to the House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should find another way of raising the matter.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask the Tánaiste when we will have this essential information?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not know. I am sorry. I will raise the matter before the end of the session.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This is a fair indication of why we have a real problem here.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Last month the Taoiseach said that this month we would have the electronic communications Bill. Yesterday, at the Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, we were far from idle and spent about 12 hours talking to the broadband industry representatives, who remain desperately unhappy.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question appropriate to the Order of Business?
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Will we have the Bill before the end of the session?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We will certainly have it by then.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has already spoken.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no provision for this.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I did not ask to come in twice. The Ceann Comhairle offered me the opportunity. I appreciate the Tánaiste was not able to answer the question this morning about the report of the Barr tribunal. Would she please furnish the Opposition parties with the information?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his co-operation.