Dáil debates

Wednesday, 10 May 2006

Adjournment Debate.

Regulation of Casinos.

9:00 pm

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. Last November in a parliamentary question I asked the Minister whether he was aware that a gambling casino had opened up in the vicinity of Grafton Street. He replied that he was aware that such type of facility had been opened. It would be difficult not to be aware because it opened with a great fanfare of publicity and some well-known figures were present.

I further asked the Minister whether he was satisfied that the casino was operating legally and whether the legislation governing the operation of casinos covered this casino. He replied that this private club had been recently visited by a senior Garda officer and no irregularities were detected that would justify a prosecution under the Gaming and Lotteries Acts 1956 to 1986, the relevant legislation for such matters. He assured the House that the premises would continue to receive Garda attention but that there were no proposals to amend the law at that stage. It is obvious that since that time the Minister has developed some proposals. He stated with reference to the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 that he would table amendments to provide for the prohibition of gambling.

The Gaming and Lotteries Acts prohibit gambling unless it is a game of chance or partly a game of chance. It is a question of the definition of a game of chance or partly a game of chance. A wide range of gambling takes place in the country. We are all familiar with gambling on horses, dogs, the national lottery, bingo and slot machines. The State is involved in some of those activities. It runs the tote at race courses and is the sole beneficiary of the national lottery.

The Minister stated that casinos offered an advantage to the casino over the gambler in casino-type operations. If the State were the owner of the casino, it is difficult to see how the matter would not be regulated in an even-handed fashion. I am not putting forward an argument for bringing casinos into existence but I ask the Minister whether he will proceed with a bald prohibition or whether he will regulate the area. All gambling is a game of chance. I understand that Ireland is only one of two countries in the European Union that does not have casino-type gambling and that a number of countries in the European Union, such as Austria, the Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, have casinos run by the State. Casino-type activities include roulette, poker and blackjack. Are these casinos more prone to criminal activity or prostitution or any form of crime or are they so biased against the punter that they create an offence by relieving the punter of his money? I have not seen too many poor bookies so there seems to be an inbuilt factor against the punter in most gambling because it is a game of chance.

My point is to determine whether there is a principle involved, whether some gambling is different from other gambling, whether lottery gambling is worse than gambling on horses or whether roulette gambling is worse than playing cards. In all cases the punter can lose his shirt and perhaps win something every now and again.

The Gaming and Leisure Association of Ireland came to my clinic recently to raise the issue with me. I told the representatives I would raise the issue with the Minister. They would like to meet the Minister to discuss the issue and to argue the case whether it would be best to regulate the industry or ban it entirely. If it is the latter, it may then be forced underground to a degree. Gambling can be carried out on-line where the server is located outside the country. I ask the Minister for clarification of his thoughts.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me this opportunity to discuss the issue. As he is aware, when announcing the publication of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 a fortnight or so ago, I adverted to my intention to avail myself of the opportunity this Bill presents to address the subject of this debate. The opportunity arises because that Bill already contains some provisions for the amendment of the Gaming and Lotteries Act. Those provisions deal with the limits on stake and prize money in gaming and amusement machines and I do not propose to anticipate debate on the Bill by going into further detail on that issue at this stage.

It is a matter for the Oireachtas and not for me to decide whether it wants to regulate or prohibit casino gambling in Ireland. I say this to make the position clear because the Deputy seems to think that it is I who will decide this issue, but this House will decide that issue. The Oireachtas has already made its decision on the question in the shape of the Gaming and Lotteries Acts. Oireachtas policy, as clearly expressed in those Acts, goes for the prohibition of casino-type operations in this State and against the notion that casinos should be permitted and regulated.

I agree with that policy. Casinos, generally speaking, are not desirable. It is the general view of the great majority of people in this society that they are not desirable. It can be said that Irish society as a whole is not averse to having a flutter. We have many ways, ranging from the national lottery, through betting on horseracing, greyhound racing and on many other events such as sports outcomes, to the humble parish raffle, of putting our money at hazard. Likewise, licensed slot machines at seaside resorts, where the reward is a cuddly toy or a small sum of money, are a feature of many family holiday experiences. Card games, whether they be genteel bridge evenings, fundraising whist, 45 drives or a night of poker among friends, are popular pastimes.

The Gaming and Lotteries Acts define what unlawful gaming is and allow certain permitted exclusions from that definition which cater for the activities I mentioned. As the Deputy is aware, gaming is the playing of a game of skill or chance or partly of skill or partly of chance for stakes hazarded by the players. Unlawful gaming is gaming where the chances of the players are not equal. However, the running of a business enterprise offering games of chance where the promoter has an edge over the other participants in the game, as is the case with roulette, is defined by the Act as unlawful gaming. That applies to taking a share of the pot simply for running the game without putting any stake at hazard — which is how casinos operate poker tables — and it is against the policy and terms of the Act for that to be permitted. I am not a puritan or a killjoy. I do not mind people playing poker if they want to, but if people are engaging in unlawful gaming, they should not be allowed operate a business under the terms of the 1956 Act.

There are those who would argue that we should recognise that casinos are here to stay and instead of continuing to outlaw them we should permit them to operate and set up systems for regulating their operation or perhaps extracting revenue from them. That is a course taken in many jurisdictions but I do not share that view. We do not need this additional facility here. Irish people who crave this facility can go abroad and find one if they want to. Innocent people are sucked into such activity and it is not desirable that they should be.

The Deputy mentioned the possibility that the State could run such an operation but the lobby group that approached him will not be interested in the State doing so. The question at issue is, do we want private enterprise casinos in Ireland, a State-run casino or to leave matters roughly as they are. My view — I hope the Inspector of Prisons does not come down on me for being too conservative — is that we should leave matters roughly as they are. We should ensure bogus clubs, which pretend to be clubs but clearly are not, do not become a loophole in the law and effectively allow for casinos to be established across this country posing as something else.

I strongly believe we must have either a workable law or no law on this matter. In the course of consideration of the gaming and lotteries legislation, which will be part of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, I intend to make the law workable and to allow the Garda Síochána to close unlawful gaming establishments that are not licensed in accordance with the policy laid down by this House.