Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me this opportunity to discuss the issue. As he is aware, when announcing the publication of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 a fortnight or so ago, I adverted to my intention to avail myself of the opportunity this Bill presents to address the subject of this debate. The opportunity arises because that Bill already contains some provisions for the amendment of the Gaming and Lotteries Act. Those provisions deal with the limits on stake and prize money in gaming and amusement machines and I do not propose to anticipate debate on the Bill by going into further detail on that issue at this stage.

It is a matter for the Oireachtas and not for me to decide whether it wants to regulate or prohibit casino gambling in Ireland. I say this to make the position clear because the Deputy seems to think that it is I who will decide this issue, but this House will decide that issue. The Oireachtas has already made its decision on the question in the shape of the Gaming and Lotteries Acts. Oireachtas policy, as clearly expressed in those Acts, goes for the prohibition of casino-type operations in this State and against the notion that casinos should be permitted and regulated.

I agree with that policy. Casinos, generally speaking, are not desirable. It is the general view of the great majority of people in this society that they are not desirable. It can be said that Irish society as a whole is not averse to having a flutter. We have many ways, ranging from the national lottery, through betting on horseracing, greyhound racing and on many other events such as sports outcomes, to the humble parish raffle, of putting our money at hazard. Likewise, licensed slot machines at seaside resorts, where the reward is a cuddly toy or a small sum of money, are a feature of many family holiday experiences. Card games, whether they be genteel bridge evenings, fundraising whist, 45 drives or a night of poker among friends, are popular pastimes.

The Gaming and Lotteries Acts define what unlawful gaming is and allow certain permitted exclusions from that definition which cater for the activities I mentioned. As the Deputy is aware, gaming is the playing of a game of skill or chance or partly of skill or partly of chance for stakes hazarded by the players. Unlawful gaming is gaming where the chances of the players are not equal. However, the running of a business enterprise offering games of chance where the promoter has an edge over the other participants in the game, as is the case with roulette, is defined by the Act as unlawful gaming. That applies to taking a share of the pot simply for running the game without putting any stake at hazard — which is how casinos operate poker tables — and it is against the policy and terms of the Act for that to be permitted. I am not a puritan or a killjoy. I do not mind people playing poker if they want to, but if people are engaging in unlawful gaming, they should not be allowed operate a business under the terms of the 1956 Act.

There are those who would argue that we should recognise that casinos are here to stay and instead of continuing to outlaw them we should permit them to operate and set up systems for regulating their operation or perhaps extracting revenue from them. That is a course taken in many jurisdictions but I do not share that view. We do not need this additional facility here. Irish people who crave this facility can go abroad and find one if they want to. Innocent people are sucked into such activity and it is not desirable that they should be.

The Deputy mentioned the possibility that the State could run such an operation but the lobby group that approached him will not be interested in the State doing so. The question at issue is, do we want private enterprise casinos in Ireland, a State-run casino or to leave matters roughly as they are. My view — I hope the Inspector of Prisons does not come down on me for being too conservative — is that we should leave matters roughly as they are. We should ensure bogus clubs, which pretend to be clubs but clearly are not, do not become a loophole in the law and effectively allow for casinos to be established across this country posing as something else.

I strongly believe we must have either a workable law or no law on this matter. In the course of consideration of the gaming and lotteries legislation, which will be part of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, I intend to make the law workable and to allow the Garda Síochána to close unlawful gaming establishments that are not licensed in accordance with the policy laid down by this House.

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