Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Question 38: To ask the Minister for Education and Science her views on making the Stay Safe programme mandatory in schools in view of the strong support for this, including from the Catholic Bishops' Commission for Education; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [13500/06]

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 62: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the number of schools here offering the Stay Safe programme; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [13339/06]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 38 and 62 together.

The issue of child protection and ensuring all children in every primary school are aware of child protection issues is a high priority area for the Department of Education and Science. The Stay Safe programme is a personal safety programme for children. It is designed to give children the knowledge and necessary skills to help them deal with potentially abusive or threatening situations.

It is also recognised that the programme must cover those individuals closely involved with children on a daily basis, namely their parents, guardians and teachers. To this end, Stay Safe involves professional in-service courses for teachers and seminars on parent awareness at individual school level. This is in addition to the teaching of a personal safety skills programme to pupils.

The training of teachers, parents and boards of management in the Stay Safe programme and the development of guidelines and procedures for a school policy on child protection is provided by a network of 31 regionally-based teachers available to the programme on a part-time basis. The support supplements the assistance provided by the Department of Health and Children which maintains an administrative office for the programme.

An initial one-day in-service training seminar on the Stay Safe programme has been provided for all primary schools. Since the programme was introduced, 99.7% of primary schools have participated in the training. The Department does not have an accurate survey of each school implementing the Stay Safe programme. However, to ensure the most accurate up-to-date information about the implementation of the programme, a survey will shortly be sent to all primary schools. I will provide the results to the Deputies in due course.

It should be noted, however, that while the Stay Safe programme is not mandatory, the teaching of a personal safety programme to ensure child protection is now an integral element of the curricular subject of social, personal and health education, SPHE. This is one of the 11 subject areas of the revised primary curriculum, mandatory for all primary schools.

The introduction of SPHE as a subject on the revised primary school curriculum, combined with the implementation of the national child protection guidelines, Children First, gave an additional impetus to the Stay Safe programme. The combined impact of these developments has ensured child protection issues remain central to teaching and learning in our schools. It also ensures a high level of awareness and the necessary skills to address child protection issues is maintained in all schools.

Once the results of the Stay Safe programme's survey have been received and processed, the position on the implementation of the programme will be clearer and the question of whether it should become mandatory can then be addressed.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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As the SPHE is mandatory, will the Minister also consider making the Stay Safe programme mandatory? The Joint Committee on Education and Science had hearings on the issue. All the education partners, including patron and parent bodies, are in favour of ensuring all children are protected. Does the Minister not have a responsibility to ensure all children are fully protected? The Stay Safe programme is the best way to achieve this.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Stay Safe programme is one method of achieving that. Vetting of staff, proper procedures and policies in schools also add to child protection. There is an obligation on everyone involved in the education system to ensure that is the case. The reason I am waiting for the survey to be completed is that parents have the right for their children to opt out of the programme.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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That is the right of individual parents; they cannot make a whole class opt out.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. I want every child to have access to the programme. Having considered the programme for each of the different age groups, I cannot understand why parents would not want their child to be involved with the programme. I also cannot understand why teachers would not want to teach it. It is a well-focussed and targeted programme for children about themselves, their feelings and protecting themselves. It is very age specific and appropriate. All the major bodies have now said they want it to be implemented. Obviously, however, there are some schools or areas around the country where some groups — I think it is largely parents — are not happy with it. I would like to see a situation where everybody would feel comfortable enough with the programme so that where it is introduced in a school every child would benefit from it. I will have a clear view of that as soon as I get the survey. If I can determine what the problems are, I will address them to ensure the programme is rolled out properly. If not, then I am open to making it mandatory.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As both the Minister and Deputy O'Sullivan have said, child protection is the most important thing. The Stay Safe programme is only one way of achieving such protection but it is a vital part. The Minister also referred to staff vetting procedures as another method but we still do not have such vetting. It will be some time before it is made retrospective but new staff will be vetted from September. We must deal, however, with staff who are already in the education system, including volunteers, by introducing proper procedures and policies. We are starting the vetting system now but surely making the Stay Safe programme mandatory is a step that needs to be taken without delay. The Minister said she was open to the idea of making the programme mandatory but, prior to the survey, did she receive any responses from those schools as to the reasons why they are not implementing it? The Minister said it was mostly parents who were unhappy with the programme and that is the response I have received also. It is not acceptable, however, for one or two parents or a group of parents in any particular area to stop all the children in that area from getting a programme that is necessary.

Does the Minister have any idea of the timescale for completion of the programme, with what I hope is a view to making it mandatory?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The child protection guidelines are issued to all schools, and all boards of management are obliged to implement them. We have introduced training for school boards of management and teachers, so all the parties involved in schools are well aware of their duties and obligations in this regard. From information previously received, it would appear that there are some geographical areas where groups of parents have gone against the Stay Safe programme. Perhaps those parents have moved on and their children may now be in secondary school. I want to identify the issues involved and whether there is a major issue that needs to be addressed in the programme. I do not believe there is but people may be identifying one. The absence of real information is such that it makes the matter difficult for us to deal with.

We had a figure based on some sort of quantitative survey to which there was less than a 50% response. On that basis, it is hard to work out how many schools are implementing the programme. The CPS reckons that approximately 95% of schools are running the programme. It is intended that the survey will be carried out quickly and that responses will come back through the education centres so they can be followed up locally to obtain real information. Unless there is a very good reason why the programme should not be implemented in full, as soon as I receive the survey results I will be quite prepared to make the programme mandatory. Due to the nature of the programme and because there is an opt out clause, I would like to see a situation where it is offered in schools and where every child has the protection and benefit of that programme with the support of their parents and teachers.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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I have a question concerning the survey findings. The Minister said there was a response rate of approximately 50% to the forms.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That was the last survey.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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In this particular survey, therefore, are people being contacted locally? I welcome the Minister's comments on the mandatory nature of the Stay Safe programme. Given that concerns were expressed in the past, when the results of the survey come back, will there be any possibility of modifying the programme should there still be opposition to it? Could it be modified in such as way as to get 95% support for it?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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If a particular issue concerning the programme needs to be addressed then well and good. To be honest, however, having examined the programme, I cannot see one. At the time it was introduced, scare-mongering comments were made by individuals, which worried parents to such an extent they felt they should pull out of it, without having realised what the programme was about to do. In recent years, everybody has become more enlightened about child protection. Perhaps these are unnecessary but deep-seated views, which started a number of years ago but might still exist. For one reason or another they have not been addressed but I wish to address them. I want every child to benefit from the Stay Safe programme and I wish to reassure people that there is nothing to be worried about.

Since it is a full-scale survey, as opposed to a sample one, it is my intention that the results will come back to us so they can be followed up locally.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I agree with the Minister that the Stay Safe programme is excellent. Parents, teachers and the back-up team directly involved in it must be leading on the issue. I urge the Minister to maintain regular contact with parents' groups. If a minority of people have not been brought on board they should be because the bottom line is that the programme is sensible, safe and in the interests of child safety.

One issue that has not been touched on in today's debate is the safety of teachers when dealing with sensitive cases involving dysfunctional and often violent families. Does the Minister understand the serious risks some teachers face when dealing with child abuse cases? Threats have been made against teachers in such cases. Does the Minister have any practical proposals to make to boards of management and unions to protect teachers in their classrooms? A violent or dysfunctional parent may turn up at a school at 9.30 a.m. when a teacher is directly involved in assisting the social services. I had direct experience of such situations in my previous teaching career as violent, dysfunctional parents turned up when a child abuse case was being dealt with. Teachers were threatened and there were serious implications for them.

Does the Minister have any research details, statistics or other information on the number of children who have been helped and saved since the introduction of the Stay Safe programme and SPHE, including the excellent work that is done in this respect with teachers and parents?

In dealing with parents' groups, I urge the Minister to use her clout and leadership to get a minority of parents on board who still have reservations about the Stay Safe programme. Even in the last year or two, the number of such parents has fallen dramatically. I would say it is approximately 1% at this stage.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Deputy ran over time on that question.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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To get back to the timescale, is the Minister talking about three, six, nine or 12 months? Does she have a timescale in mind? I accept there is confusion and ignorance about the Stay Safe programme. However, I thought it was a positive step by the representatives of the bishops' commission who attended the Committee on Education and Science and supported the programme. As Deputy Finian McGrath said, there is a need for leadership on this matter. No one wants to compulsorily force parents to accept the programme but leadership is required in this respect. I think everyone accepts that this is the proper way forward for children.

Where do children go whose parents wish them to opt out of participation in the programme? Is the Department working on schemes to look after children at school who will not participate?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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As regards the points raised by Deputy Finian McGrath and Deputy Crowe, parents are central to this matter. The programme recognises that parents are the most important people in a child's life. It also recognises that a child who is upset is most likely to turn to its parents in the first instance. That is why, before the programme is even introduced into a school, there are parents' meetings, including an introductory meeting explaining the whole programme. Even after that, parents have the right not to allow their children to participate in it. In the past, I suspect that because a large body of parents within a particular area or school were against the programme, rather than implementing the programme for a few children and not knowing what to do with the others, the school did not introduce the programme at all.

I am satisfied that when we get the final survey results we will find the programme is being introduced in the vast majority of cases. I accept what Deputy Crowe said — it is a welcome step that the bishops' commission has stated it would like to see the programme being implemented. Hopefully that will allay some of the fears people have about the programme. While such fears are genuinely unfounded, we must respect the rights of parents concerning a programme like this.

As Deputy Finian McGrath is aware, we never know how many children are saved or protected from situations by the Stay Safe programme. We only ever hear of the terrible stories of children who did not know how to protect themselves or where structures were not in place to protect them. I hope that as time goes on we will hear of fewer cases of children who are severely abused because they will know how to protect themselves and proper procedures will be in place. Equally, it is vitally important that every school has policies and procedures in place to protect their teachers as well as their children. That is a crucial issue for boards of management, who are responsible for recruiting, selecting and managing their schools on a day to day basis. They must ensure the principal and teachers in their schools are protected.