Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Question 51: To ask the Minister for Transport his views on whether it will be necessary within the near future to introduce demand management measures on the M50 as was suggested by An Bord Pleanála, Arup Consulting Engineers, the Dublin Transportation Office and the National Roads Authority at the oral hearing to examine the proposed widening and upgrade of the M50; the road tolling contracts which have been signed over the past year; the additional road tolling contracts awaiting his approval; when he expects such contracts to be agreed; and if he will not postpone any finalisation of such agreements pending agreement between the Government and the National Roads Authority on the nature of future tolling arrangements on the M50 motorway. [9520/06]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I understand from the National Roads Authority that the free flow toll arrangement to be put in place on the M50 on completion of phase one of the upgrade in 2008 will be a single point toll. I expect to receive specific proposals later this year from the NRA on these 2008 arrangements.

The planning permission granted for the M50 upgrade requires that a scheme of specific demand management measures for the motorway corridor be published no later than three years after the upgrade has been completed which is anticipated to be in 2010. For this reason, the barrier free tolling arrangements will need to be adaptable to meet the medium to long-term needs that arise and to satisfy the planning permission requirements in that regard. Comprehensive research and analysis will require to be undertaken by the NRA in the coming years to address the post-2010 situation and to submit proposals to the Minister for Transport at the appropriate time.

The statutory power to levy tolls on national roads, make toll by-laws and enter into toll agreements with private investors in respect of national roads is vested in the NRA under Part V of the Roads Act 1993, as amended by the Planning and Development Act 2000. Accordingly, individual PPP contracts are a matter for the NRA and I have no function in relation to the approval or signing of such contracts.

The current position in relation to toll road PPP projects is that three projects have been completed, the M50 second West Link bridge, the M1 Dundalk western bypass and the M4 Kilcock-Enfield-Kinnegad scheme. The N8 Fermoy bypass contract was signed in 2004 and its construction is ahead of schedule. No PPP contracts were signed in 2005. However, I understand from the NRA that a further three contracts are expected to be awarded in 2006, that is, the N25 Waterford city bypass, the N7 Limerick southern ring phase two and the N3 Clonee-Kells scheme. I am informed that the NRA does not envisage any delays in the awarding of these contracts, subject to legal developments on the N3 Clonee-Kells scheme.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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At the oral hearing for the widening of the M50, the National Roads Authority, Arup Consulting Engineers, the Dublin Transportation Office and An Bord Pleanála said we would need to demand manage this road because it will not work. Mr. John Henry, the head of the Dublin Transportation Office, said in its submission that scheme management was needed earlier rather than later because the figures in the oral hearing were dramatic. They showed that as soon as it is opened in 2008, the volumes will double and the road will be grid locked. Does the Minister support the position of the National Roads Authority, Arup Consulting Engineers, the Dublin Transportation Office and An Bord Pleanála that we will need to demand manage that road sooner rather than later? Does that not require what was implied by the Minister, that is, a multiple point tolling system on the M50 operated on a variable basis — not to raise revenues but to cut down on congestion? Does he support that principle? Is that the scheme the NRA will come back to the Minister with this autumn?

Given that it would seem we will have to introduce such a demand management system on the M50 to make it work, why proceed with signing contracts for a tolling system on the N3, the Clonee-Kells motorway, which would effectively mean that motorists travelling from Cavan to Dublin daily — approximately 6,000 people commute on that route daily — would have to pay a toll at the Kells end of the new motorway, a toll at the Clonee end of it and a toll when they hit the M50? Surely this requirement for a toll management system on the M50 requires the Minister to review the entire tolling operation being put in place so that motorists are not fleeced and that we at least have a tolling system designed to get those roads working rather than raise money for private operators. Will he reconsider the application of tolls on the Kells-Clonee motorway given that almost every transport expert agrees we will have to toll the M50 to make it work?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Deputy supports Government investment in both roads and public transport. As the Deputy well knows, the funding for the 50% increase in capacity on the M50, which is significant, will come directly from the tolls collected. They will be reinvested immediately in that road system. I said that at the end of the year the NRA will come back to Government with a proposal for a move to barrier free tolling at the end of phase one of the upgrade, which will come into place in 2008. That will involve a single point barrier free tolling position on the M50.

I have been asked this question on a number of occasions and I made it clear when I launched Transport 21 that I could not countenance — nor do I believe could anybody else — introducing demand management or congestion charging in Dublin until all the public transport facilities a modern capital city requires are in place. I refer to metro north, metro west, the seven Luas extensions, the substantial investment in buses and so on. One cannot have congestion charging or a demand management system of the type about which the Deputy speaks without alternatives for the public to use. Currently there are insufficient public transport systems in place as an alternative to the use of the M50. After 2015 when all the public transport systems are in place, a review of how they are working can take place. I hope they will have the same effect as the Luas and take 50% of people out of cars. Metro north alone will take 41,000 car journeys per day out of the system. We will be able to go to Dublin Airport from the city in 17 minutes and to Swords in 26 minutes.

There is too much debate around the issue of dealing with the M50 or another project in isolation. These projects will only benefit each other when they are completed. That is what we are doing with massive investment by the taxpayers which could not have happened only for the policies of this Government in recent years.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It is clear the Taoiseach has got to the Minister in terms of not doing anything which will scare the horses before the next election. The Minister talked about 2015. If the Minister will not take the advice of the transport experts to put demand management on the M50, not the anti-roads people, but Arup engineers, the NRA, the Dublin Transportation Office, and the Bord Pleanála inspector — I could cite chapter and verse as to why they see an immediate need for demand management — what will he say to the motorists who will drive on the road from 2008 onwards, when it will in effect be a car park? The Minister says he will put everything off until 2015. How will he make that road work?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad we had the opportunity to put the Green Party policy in place because that party now wants the M50 festooned with tolls, with no alternative public transport system in place. I reject that view.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I do not trust the Minister to deliver the road. I do not trust him to run a merry-go-round, let alone public transport.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It was suggested I recently changed my mind on this matter. I quoted what I said last year.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Minister hid behind other people.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I made it quite clear——

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Minister made nothing clear.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I made it clear that taking a balanced approach to all road users and those using public transport, one cannot go down that road for a capital city the size of Dublin until public transport is organised.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Minister is not being responsible.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Fianna Fáil position and the position of the Government.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Put if off until never-never.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Despite what the Minister said on Friday evening, when he got it so wrong.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Just because Deputy Shortall's party leader decided to misquote me does not mean I must go down that road.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister got it so wrong.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach told the Minister to say nothing, to put it off.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The political antennae were not working that night.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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We know who the Minister for Transport is in this Government — it is the Taoiseach.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The line of the Labour Party these days especially is "I know he did not say it but I want to hear him deny it". That seems to be the mantra in terms of creating mischief in the public mind.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister said it and his spokesperson said it last night.