Dáil debates
Tuesday, 28 February 2006
School Discipline: Motion.
8:00 pm
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I move:
That Dáil Éireann:
—concerned at growing indiscipline in Ireland's schools;
—noting the findings of the interim report of the task force on student behaviour that the disruptive behaviour in our schools included threats against teachers and their property, fighting, assault and the carrying of dangerous weapons on school property;
—noting especially that some examples of student behaviour notified to the task force were of such a serious nature as to be considered criminal behaviour; and
—accepting that the discipline problems in our schools reduce the performance of students as a whole, and lead to the potential loss of teachers from the profession;
calls on the Government to:
—immediately publish the final report of the task force on student behaviour, under the chairmanship of Maeve Martin;
—outline its legislative response to tackling school discipline problems, in particular, its response to the difficulties posed by section 29 of the Education Act 1998; and
—put in place specific measures to make schools good places to teach, and to learn, including the implementation of a national anti-bullying strategy.
When Ireland banned school corporal punishment in 1982, it was clearly the right thing to do. At the time we recognised that physical forms of punishment were totally inappropriate in an educational context. It was a good day for our education system and the children of the State. A regulation was circulated to all schools by the then Minister for Education, John Boland. It stated teachers should have a lively regard for the improvement and general welfare of their pupils, treat them with kindness combined with firmness and should aim at governing them through their affections and reason, not by harshness and severity. Ridicule, sarcasm or remarks likely to undermine a pupil's self-confidence should not be used in any circumstances. It further stated the use of corporal punishment was forbidden and that any teacher who contravened either section of the rule would be regarded as guilty of conduct unbefitting a teacher and would be subject to severe disciplinary action.
The regulations were very clear. The use of corporal punishment was expressly forbidden. However, all of the focus was placed on the behaviour of the teacher. The responsibilities of our young people, including how they should interact with their peers and teachers, were not detailed. This is an imbalance we must redress today. Alongside the right to free education, there is a dual responsibility that our young people engage in their schooling in a way that does not undermine or harass their teachers, or disrupt the learning of others. It seems that while the right decision was made more than 20 years ago, we have not yet put in place a proper alternative that every student can understand and respect. To ensure our classrooms are the best possible places in which to learn and teach, this issue must be addressed.
Poor student behaviour and lack of discipline damage the educational prospects of all children at school. The negative impact of disruption in the classroom includes wasting the teacher's time in sorting out disruptions and tying up processing issues due to classroom disruption; students becoming disheartened or intimidated by the behaviour of some of their peers; teacher morale being compromised; the standing of the school in the community being diminished; the educational attainment of students being lowered; and a disproportionate amount of time being allocated to the disruptive students at the expense of those more compliant children and young people. I am deeply concerned at the long-term damage done to individual young people and society as a whole, if we allow some to believe mistakenly that schools are places where anything goes when it comes to unacceptable behaviour.
To address the growing problems in our schools, the task force on student behaviour was set up by the Minister for Education and Science under the chairmanship of Dr. Maeve Martin and began its work a little over a year ago. The task force was asked to consider and report on the issue of student behaviour in second level schools. It produced an interim report in July 2005 which made for chilling reading in parts.
In undertaking its work the task force encountered examples of seriously disruptive behaviour in schools, including threats against teachers and their property, fighting, assault and the carrying of dangerous weapons on school property. Some examples of student behaviour were of such a serious nature that they were considered criminal behaviour. Such activity has no place in our schools. When we focus on unacceptable behaviour in our schools, we should be clear that it is this type of behaviour to which we are referring. Students and young people should be energetic, inquisitive, resourceful, questioning and active, as these are all good traits that should be encouraged by our education system. In addressing student indiscipline we are not seeking to curb young people's individuality, creativity or energy. Instead, we are focusing on the type of behaviour identified by the task force which is clearly unacceptable.
The task force's interim report noted that the perpetrators of disruption represented 5% to 10% of the school population, with those involved in extreme behaviour representing a smaller proportion of this number. However, studies by the centre for education services at Marino Institute of Education found that over 80% of respondents were of the view that the incidence of disruptive behaviour had increased during the years. This is a tide that must be turned. Otherwise, we will lose good teachers from our schools, disruptive students will find that their unacceptable behaviour goes unchallenged, and their peers will have their educational prospects squandered.
The findings of the interim report highlight the challenges that we face in making the school environment a good place to be for both students and teachers. The task force also stressed the negative effect that disruptive behaviour could have on the educational attainment of all students in the classroom. Today, we must accept that disruptive students do not have the right to undermine other young people's educational opportunities or achievements. Some teachers' representatives have questioned the findings of the interim report, stating they do not adequately reflect the realities that they face each and every day in the classroom. Certainly, the task force has encountered examples of student behaviour which could easily have been reported to the Garda Síochána.
When it comes to student behaviour and discipline, our schools are not receiving the backup they need from the Department of Education and Science and other bodies. The Department guidelines entitled, Towards a Positive Policy for School Behaviour and Discipline, were published in circular M33/91 in 1991. It is time to revisit the guidelines and make changes where necessary.
Under the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, school boards of management are obliged to draw up codes of behaviour for students. The National Educational Welfare Board is drafting guidelines for schools on how to address this code. I hope they will be available soon. In recent years there have been considerable developments and changes in Irish society. Many students have mobile phones and access to the Internet at home and school, leading to the emergence of new forms of bullying and bad behaviour. These developments need to be reflected in up-to-date guidelines that take account of technological and other developments.
The Minister should without further delay publish the final report of the task force which has been with her since January. I note from the Government's amendment that the report will be published in March. I look forward to this but it is a pity it will not be published earlier. To expedite the recommendations of the task force, the publication of this report is clearly necessary. Teachers and educators are waiting to assess the recommendations of the report and see what action will be taken by the Minister to implement new proposals. Obviously, the action taken on foot of the report is a priority.
In its interim report the task force noted that many schools were deeply frustrated with section 29 of the Education Act 1998. In the majority of cases, section 29 is used to undermine the authority of schools in expelling seriously disruptive students. This can lead to schools being forced to accept as students young people previously expelled for seriously disruptive behaviour. In such cases, the students return to the school secure in the knowledge that there is no real action the authorities can take against their unacceptable behaviour. This is unacceptable. The Irish Vocational Education Association has estimated that of the 34 student appeals against expulsions in the vocational education sector in the past three years, only seven pupils had subsequently been expelled. Its general secretary commented: "In a number of cases, our schools report to us that they are under particular pressure to reintegrate the pupil, who then often returns with a swagger, having achieved a victory against the school authorities".
In the last school year alone the Department of Education and Science overturned at least eight school expulsions, returning to these schools students who had been deemed to be seriously and continuously in breach of the school code of behaviour. What message does this send, both to the individuals concerned and the school? Surely this system undermines the ethos of discipline and acceptable behaviour in our education system. In addition, the time it takes to process appeals is onerous, removing the school principal from the day-to-day tasks that demand his or her full attention. While individual rights must be respected, we must also have the utmost regard for the rights of the school community. One individual does not have the right to disrupt the education of every other child in the class.
School codes of behaviour must be very clear as to what behaviour will result in suspension or expulsion. Students and their parents must be left in no doubt as to the seriousness of certain types of behaviour. In addition, the school code of behaviour must outline clearly the process which must be followed in the case of a school making the decision to expel a pupil. If these matters are made crystal clear for all students, appeals against the decision to expel should only consider whether the correct process had been followed by the school in question. If the school has followed a fair process and documented each step of the way leading to the expulsion of the student, the Department should recognise and vindicate the actions of the school and not overturn the decision to expel. We must have greater trust in our schools and teachers and respect the fact that the decision to expel a student is never taken lightly. Appeals to the Department under section 29 of the Education Act 1998 should be amended to take account of this fact.
Schools also come under pressure to accept disruptive students once again into their ranks because the Minister has failed to provide real educational alternatives for young people displaying challenging behaviour. While we must support the right of schools to expel in certain situations, we must also address the needs of those students who do not fit into the school system. A more dramatic response is required. We should examine the establishment of a small network of new schools which would be designed for students with very challenging behaviour, who have been expelled or dropped out from mainstream second level schools.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Not dumps but proper schools. The students have left the system and have nowhere else to go. The Minister has done nothing about it and just left them out of the system.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I would never use that philosophy. It is an appalling philosophy. That is not based on education, It is a philosophy for people who do not fit in.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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These schools would be released from the constraints of the national curriculum, focusing on essential points of literacy and numeracy, giving students the life skills they need. We must face the fact that not every student can achieve under the current system and start providing real alternatives for them.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Dump them somewhere else.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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A small network of separate schools would not only help expelled students to reach their individual educational targets, they would also target resources towards young people in difficulty. The Minister, Deputy Hanafin, has stated her support for Youthreach time and again but these programmes are still on a pilot basis. Youthreach should be put on a statutory basis so it can be rolled out nationally, helping in the recruitment of the most dynamic teachers committed to this programme. When young people leave school early, it can be monumentally difficult to get them to re-engage with the education system and this can be addressed through the Youthreach programme.
As part of a new, innovative approach to behaviour issues, schools should enter into behaviour contracts with their students. This would involve the school organising a meeting for all parents and students, or individual students and parents if necessary, at which the school code of behaviour would be explained in detail. Parents and students would be informed of the warnings that would be given and actions taken in cases of poor behaviour. In this way, every student and their parents would know exactly where they stand if, for example, the student disrupted his or her class, was found to be bullying another student or was guilty of causing damage to school or teachers' property. Every second level student in the State would have a copy of their school's code of behaviour. Indeed, this process could be considered to some extent for primary schools as well. As part of this process, students and their parents would be asked to confirm that they fully understand the code of behaviour and the actions the school can take to enforce it.
In her submission to the task force on student behaviour, the Ombudsman for Children noted that there seemed to be a lack of awareness of the code of behaviour and discipline procedures in schools. This must be addressed. Parents, too, have a clear responsibility with regard to the education of their children in what is, and is not, appropriate behaviour. Parents must be fully engaged with schools in tackling discipline problems and in ensuring that their children act towards their teachers and peers in a way that is acceptable.
We must honestly engage with the huge resourcing problems that face our schools on a daily basis. For example, I recently uncovered from replies to parliamentary questions that half of all primary schools have no access to the national educational psychological service, NEPS. Many young children who need extra assistance from the early days of their education are being left behind by the Government. By the time they reach second level school, they are growing increasingly frustrated with the system and this contributes to disruptive classroom behaviour.
Access to these types of services is, undoubtedly, important from an educational point of view. However, these services also contribute to children and young people settling into school properly and combat early school leaving. Meeting the needs of all our children, without the excessive delays that characterise our education system, and listening to and engaging with young people openly will go a long way to improving the classroom and school environment.
Trainee teachers must be given all the necessary assistance in dealing with disruptive behaviour in the best possible and most up-to-date manner. Some inexperienced teachers, when presented with a case of serious indiscipline, may simply not know the best way in which it can be handled. Unwittingly, a discipline problem might be exacerbated by inappropriate action from an inexperienced teacher. All possible assistance should be given to new teachers to ensure that this does not happen and enhanced in-service training should be given to all teachers, new and existing.
An expansion of the home-school liaison service should be prioritised so that problems in the home environment, which may contribute to indiscipline in the classroom, can be properly assessed and assisted. There should also be greater co-operation between the Department of Education and Science and the HSE as some children fall between the remits of these two bodies.
Guidance services in place in schools are poor at best. Schools with an enrolment of fewer than 200 pupils receive only eight hours of career guidance counselling per week. Guidance counsellors could play an important role in improving the school environment through one-to-one and group involvement with students, but at present they are snowed under due to a lack of adequate resources. Serious breaches of school discipline or threatening behaviour against teachers should be reported immediately to the Department of Education and Science, which should know which schools face the greatest discipline challenges when allocating resources.
The involvement of students in discipline structures in our schools should be examined. Peer pressure can be a strong motivator for behavioural change. As well as involving student councils in the drafting of school codes of behaviour, there is room to go much further. A pilot project should be undertaken with a number of volunteer schools where students are involved in every aspect of the school's approach to discipline. This would mean that students would agree the text of the school discipline policy and would have a decision-making role with regard to the penalties that their peers face if guilty of breaking this policy. This would also mean that students are involved not only when problems occur but also at an earlier stage in managing and preventing lapses in discipline. As well as tackling school discipline problems, my concerns in this area also extend to the pressing need to introduce a national anti-bullying strategy in all primary and secondary schools. We need to explode the myth that bullying is a normal part of growing up for many children. Bullying is a deeply destructive behaviour that can have long-term negative consequences for individuals. In some extreme cases, it can lead and sadly has led to suicide.
Tackling student discipline problems and bullying behaviour at school would have a longer-term positive effect throughout society. Young people must be given clearer guidance and direction when their behaviour is unacceptable. To take a longer-term view, workplace bullying costs Irish business up to €3 billion per annum through poor productivity and absenteeism, children and young people of today will be the workers of tomorrow. They must learn that unacceptable behaviour at school, whether it is directed at teachers or other students, will be tackled when and where it occurs. This would also have a positive effect on tackling workplace bullying in later life.
An anti-bullying project, undertaken in Donegal with Trinity College, Dublin and based on a Norwegian model, resulted in a reduction of more than 60% in frequent bullying. The Norwegian Government was so impressed with the success of this project that it has adopted this model for its national anti-bullying programme. It is a shame the Minister for Education and Science does not share its commitment to tackling this problem.
The rise in anti-social behaviour in society can be tackled by challenging bullying and violent behaviour in our schools. Tackling school bullying in an effective way would therefore bring important long-term benefits to the country as a whole. Bullying is a vicious and destructive behaviour that must be addressed. Children who are bullied cannot be left without support and help, and the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, needs to introduce a national anti-bullying strategy in all schools immediately.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Deputy Enright on her excellent contribution to the debate. I commend her for putting forward the motion, in which, as a former teacher, I have particular interest. A minority of students should not be allowed to detract from the education of the majority but, unfortunately, this is happening in many cases.
I am sure the Minister will agree that society has changed in the past 20 years and respect for teachers it not as it once was. Students from all socioeconomic backgrounds manifest behaviour and disciplinary problems. However, teachers in schools located in disadvantaged areas seem to encounter more difficulties and experience more disruptive behaviour, which includes threats against teachers and their property, assault and the carrying of dangerous weapons including knives, as highlighted in the interim report of the task force on student behaviour.
Teachers need more support. They need further training to cope with the changing behaviour of their students. Only €2 million was allocated for teacher support in 2006, which can be compared to the position in Scotland, where considerable resources are made available for teacher support.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Some €27 million was allocated.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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A statistic I noticed recently suggested it was €2 million.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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No, €27 million was provided for in-service training for teachers.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Only €2 million was provided to deal specifically with this problem.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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No. The Deputy is mixing up the figures, although his speech is grand.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Some €2 million was provided for the task force.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy referred to support for teachers. Some €27 million was provided for in-service training for teachers.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Only €2 million was provided to deal specifically with the disciplinary problem.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what the Deputy said.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy referred to support for teachers.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I did so within the context of the motion. I took the statistic from a recent article by one of the teacher unions.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The €2 million was for the task force whereas the €27 million was for in-service training.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister knows everything. I suggest she considers the Scottish model to ascertain how well the Scots cope with this problem and applies that model here in Ireland as far as is possible.
As Deputy Enright stated, teachers' lives and careers have been ruined by the behaviour of disruptive students — I have experienced this at first hand. They have suffered loss of self-esteem and confidence and some have given up teaching because of the manner of their treatment in the classroom. They are isolated and the level of depression and mental illness is becoming increasingly prevalent among the teaching profession. However, despite the support from their own colleagues, they are given little support from the system. Many supports are available for students, rightly so, but little consideration is given to teacher supports, including psychological support services and so on. Students and their parents are increasingly litigious. Even putting a student outside a classroom door can result in a court case for a teacher. In Scotland, on-site and off-site centres are provided where educational psychologists and sociologists attempt to deal with such problems.
Deputy Enright suggested that section 29 of the Education Act 1998 should be reconsidered as it is very much weighted in favour of the student. As the Minister knows, students can appeal a suspension or an expulsion. A recent newspaper article referred to a student in Cork who threatened a fellow student with a knife. He was suspended but won his appeal and when he returned to the school, he threatened the same individual again. The system is not working. Section 29 should be re-balanced and I ask the Minister to reconsider this.
The report has been with the Minister since last January. She should publish it as soon as possible but there is no point doing so without making funds available to implement its recommendations, as was the case with many other reports. As the problem is particularly accentuated in disadvantaged areas, more support must be directed at schools located in such areas. I am sure the Minister will agree it will be difficult to get teachers to teach in such schools unless supports are provided, the pupil-teacher ratio improves and psychological services are made available to make life for the teacher easier.
I welcome this important discussion. From my contacts with colleagues, I know discipline is a major problem and one that is becoming more serious. Society is breaking down in various ways, family life is changing and support and discipline are not available within the family as they were in the past. Unless intervention is made by the Department and the Minister, teachers will be affected, cases of burnout will increase and the noble profession of teaching will not be as attractive and will not attract those the Minister wants to attract. Assurances must be provided with regard to behavioural problems.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I commend Deputy Enright for putting the motion before the House. It gives us a great opportunity to speak on the important issue of discipline in the classroom, which is a vitally important aspect of the education process. Many working within the education system, particularly teachers at the coalface, feel strongly that student behaviour has deteriorated significantly in recent years. The concerns of the education partners are clearly laid out in Dr. Maeve Martin's task force report on student discipline, which makes damning reading. I urge the Minister to publish the report as soon as possible.
In recent years an important array of legislative measures have underpinned the rights of young people in the education setting, notably the Education Act 1998. However, teachers have often been overlooked during this reform process.
The importance of the role of the teacher in society cannot be underestimated. Education has proven to be the single most important component in creating Ireland's current economic success. However, while our economy has grown, our teachers have come under increased pressure in a variety of areas. Pressure is coming from the so-called points race that characterises our education system. Pressure is coming from the fact that what was once a well paid job has fallen behind in recent times and teachers are no longer adequately paid for their Trojan work. Pressure comes from vast legislative changes. The Education Act 1998, the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act 2001 and a host of other new laws have made school life infinitely more complicated, particularly for school principals. Added to all these pressures are the problems created by indiscipline in the classroom.
A changing society means that simply being an adult or a person in authority no longer guarantees respect from young people. While I do not categorise all young people as disrespectful, we must acknowledge that Ireland is experiencing serious social problems regarding the behaviour of some young people. Ten years ago we rarely heard the term "anti-social behaviour" in Ireland. These days we hear it every time we turn on the news and see it referred to every time we open a newspaper. In some areas people feel afraid to leave their houses because of anti-social behaviour. In today's Ireland the classroom is also affected by this disgraceful social phenomenon.
Indiscipline in the classrooms runs from using foul language to threats to teachers, damaging their property or even carrying dangerous weapons in the school environment. These are not problems that can be ignored, as they will only get worse. Indiscipline in schools has many serious consequences. It reduces the performances of students as a whole, thus preventing students from achieving their academic potential, which has consequences for the students personally and is bad for society.
The stress brought about by severe or prolonged student indiscipline forces many fine teachers out of the classroom. Many teachers leaving the profession early cite stress as the reason for early retirement. This also represents a social brain drain of the people who have given a lifetime of work and the country has invested hugely in the education of those teachers. Many potentially excellent teachers do not enter the profession as they have heard too many horror stories about good teachers having a miserable and stressful existence because of indiscipline and being powerless to do anything about it. These factors highlight why it is so important for the Government to demonstrate its commitment to social discipline. If the Government does not publish the final report of the task force on student behaviour and outline its legislative response to tackling school discipline problems, it is showing that it is not concerned with the serious consequences of disruptive behaviour in our schools.
I join my colleagues on this side of the House in calling on the Government to publish the final report of the task force on student behaviour immediately and to outline its legislative response to tackling school discipline problems, paying particular attention to section 29 of the Education Act.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Enright for raising this important issue. I note that even at this early stage the Minister obviously has issues, as she disagrees with it. However, that is what politics is about. The purpose of the motion is to highlight some of the issues we need to rectify. I support the call for the Government to publish immediately the final report of the task force on student behaviour, which was chaired by Dr. Maeve Martin. In its legislative response to tackling school discipline problems, the Government must give its response to the difficulties posed in section 29 of the Education Act, a point to which I shall return later. It also needs to put in place measures to turn schools into suitable places to teach and to learn and ensure that the national anti-bullying strategy is implemented.
I have spoken to young teachers, often young female secondary school teachers, who have just got their first jobs. Those teaching in schools in areas of high-density population find it intolerable. They wonder what they have got themselves into. If nothing is done, we will lose some of them and in the longer term we will lose more of them. In a school with discipline problems it is impossible to get proper educational performance from students.
The interim report of the task force on student behaviour clearly points out the disruptive behaviour in our schools, including threats against teachers and their property. It also goes on to highlight fighting, assault and the carrying of dangerous weapons on school property. Even some examples of school behaviour notified to the task force were of such a serious nature as to be considered to be criminal behaviour. Those are the task force's comments and not mine.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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They could report it to the Garda.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Most reasonable people would agree we cannot continue to tolerate this situation indefinitely. Children must be encouraged through sport and other activities. We must try to use the carrot rather than the stick. One individual can cause serious problems and can create learning difficulties for the rest of the class, not to mention the difficulties for the teacher.
In the Minister's reaction to Deputy Enright regarding alternative places for some children——
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Enright spoke about children who do not fit.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister just washed her hands of them and recommends reporting them to the Garda.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Has she ever visited a unit in Castleblaney that courts insisted on building because there were no places for these sorts of children who were ending up in court? The cost per child is enormous. We need to consider some kind of interim structure such as that suggested by Deputy Enright and not rule it out of order. Going from one extreme to the other where students cannot stay in an ordinary school and must be placed in what is effectively a jail where they also cause difficulty and create major scenes is not in anybody's best interest.
Parents must also play a major role, as mentioned by previous speakers. Although many children come from single parent families or families divided by marriage break-up, much of the onus must be placed on the parents to try to ensure that children are disciplined in the home. If they are, they have a better chance in the school.
The lack of psychological services also creates a problem. I have discussed the matter regarding one small school where it is difficult to get children evaluated. If they are not evaluated at the right time, which should obviously be in primary school, they can often go through to secondary school still creating problems which could have been dealt with at a more appropriate level for a lower cost. The school I have in mind has an above average number of difficult students with educational or other disabilities. It has found it impossible to deal with the Department and get the services the students deserve. The minority of students must not be allowed to dictate how other students receive their education.
Today teachers are under enormous pressure. I have come across one teacher who was literally in a state of mental health breakdown because the teacher is just not allowed to deal with the situation. Under the laws the Oireachtas has introduced, teachers are not allowed to do this, that or the next thing whereas some students are extremely aware of their rights and are willing to use them to the last when they play them up against the teacher. On the other hand, conscientious school students who want to achieve the points they need are also worried about the situation because of the lack of education they receive and their need for points if they are to continue in education.
Deputy Deenihan mentioned anti-social behaviour. Although the anti-social behaviour situation is extremely serious, what worries me is that students who are subjected to such behaviour can sometimes be led to suicide. Where there is a lack of understanding about the bullying and pressure to which young people can be subjected, some young people simply lose the will to live. There is nothing as frightening as attending the funeral of such a teenager.
I am not sure how speedily the Education Act 1998 was passed, but it is clear from the interim task force report that section 29 of the Act is causing problems. The report states:
it should be stated definitively that respondents and submissions argued that schools are keen to work within a framework of inclusion. They recognise that all students who form the school cohort have a right to education and ideally they would like this education to be offered within the mainstream setting. However, the perception is that when a student's behaviour is such that it is resistant to all efforts to bring it within acceptable limits and is of a nature that it interferes with the learning opportunities of peers, school authorities are powerless to remove the student from the school.
That is a major indictment on us as legislators.
The interim report continues:
They are frequently at their most pastoral and supportive in dealing with these students and their parents/guardians, but still there remains a minority of students whose persistent challenging behaviour is beyond the scope of their interventions. The processing of a Section 29 appeal places heavy demands on a school in terms of time and with regard to expenditure in accessing legal advice.
That situation was recently brought to my attention by a school principal. The issue was not just the problem itself but the fact the principal had to spend so much time away from the school ensuring the legal personnel did a proper job on his behalf. He wanted to ensure the issue was carried through because he could not bear the idea of the school losing the section 29 appeal.
The section 29 mechanism brings pressure on everybody, as the interim report confirms:
Where an appeal is upheld the resultant lowering of morale and sense of helplessness experienced by a school staff are considerable. The Task Force acknowledges that the process surrounding a Section 29 appeal is conducted with the utmost care and meticulous attention to ensure that justice is done to all. However, whatever the hard data in statistical terms regarding Section 29 outcomes, schools consistently report frustration with the experience. The final report from this Task Force will make considered recommendations in line with the legislation.
We must give serious consideration to the task force's final recommendations on how to get us out of that bind. The interim report concludes:
The issue of student discipline has so many facets to it that, as suggested earlier, it will require a response not just from individual sectors of the school community, but, also from the total spectrum of players working in harmony towards a common goal.
We must all work together. Not everyone will agree with all the task force's proposals but they should at least be used as a basis for producing constructive alternatives.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Keaveney.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No.1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
—supports the measured and focussed manner in which the Minister for Education and Science has approached the issue of student behaviour in our second level schools;
—notes the fact that a Task Force established by the Minister has now completed its work;
—commends the fact that funding has been provided in 2006 to commence the implementation of the recommendations of the Task Force; and
—notes further the Minister's intention to publish the Report and set out her intended approach to implementation in March 2006.
I am glad to have the opportunity to outline to the House the manner in which I have approached the issue of student behaviour in our second level schools. As Deputies will be aware, on becoming Minister for Education and Science I said that my overriding priority would be to ensure our education system enabled every child to reach his or her full potential. Of course, in order to achieve this we need the right learning environment in our schools. We need to ensure local schools have a positive atmosphere that supports learning and promotes a sense of community among students, teachers and parents.
One thing I have stressed from the start is that securing a positive learning environment in all our schools requires a multifaceted approach, as a whole range of factors influence a school's success in this regard. Effective teaching styles, strong school leadership and a fair procedure for dealing with disruption are vital. Access to good professional supports for teachers is also vital, as are opportunities for students to have a role in decision-making in their schools and for parents to build positive relationships with their child's teachers. The extent to which the curriculum is relevant to the needs of the individual student is also extremely important.
It is my belief that student behaviour is determined by a range of factors, all of which we must address. That belief has underpinned my approach to this issue and is reflected in the terms of reference I gave the task force on student behaviour when I established it this time last year. However, the Opposition motion before us and the extremely alarmist press release issued over the weekend show no grasp of the complexities of the issue. I regret that some parties are more interested in headline grabbing than in approaching the issue in a responsible and well considered way.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Our press release simply quoted the task force's interim report.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I was genuinely appalled that Deputy Enright's speech talked about setting up a separate schools system for "students who do not fit".
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I never used that phrase. I said we need a network of new schools for students with very challenging behaviours.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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About three paragraphs further back in her speech, Deputy Enright talked about "students who do not fit".
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Although it is true that some schools are having serious problems dealing with difficult students, I want to stress that only a small minority of students are engaged in extreme behaviour that is threatening to their peers and teachers.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Those students are creating problems, which the Minister is failing to address.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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While it is clear that no level of such behaviour is acceptable, it is irresponsible in the extreme to suggest this type of behaviour is a generalised problem across our education system that all schools are required to grapple with. The reality is that the vast majority of students in our schools are well-behaved. Schools that have effective codes of behaviour in place find that these are generally sufficient to deal with disruption when it occurs. These codes of behaviour should be drawn up by every school in conjunction with students and parents who sign up to them. Generally, schools that have effective procedures are in a position to deal with such behaviour.
The reason I established a task force on student behaviour was not because student disruption is at crisis level in our schools but because I want to ensure we spread examples of best practice more widely and that my Department has the right policies and supports in place to enable schools to provide a positive learning environment for all their students. I also wanted to ensure the group benefited from a wide range of expertise and experience. Therefore, the 12-member task force included teachers from both mainstream schools and alternative school provision, school principals, and a parent who was a solicitor. The task force was chaired by Dr. Maeve Martin, a psychologist working in teacher education. I am grateful to the task force and its chair for the detailed consideration that they gave to such a broad area in a relatively short amount of time.
When I announced the establishment of the task force, I stated I wanted the group to consult widely and to engage with all partners so every view could be heard. The task force began its work by inviting, by public advertisement, submissions from interested individuals and groups. More than 150 submissions were received from agencies, advocacy groups, subject associations, targeted initiative personnel, school groups — comprising teachers, parents and students — and, of course, individuals. Some of the submissions are posted on the link to the task force, which is accessible through the Department of Education and Science home page, www.education.ie. The submissions provide a wide spectrum of views on the issues pertaining to student behaviour.
At an early stage, the task force prioritised collaboration with the partners in education as a guiding feature of its work. The task force held 19 plenary sessions in 2005 at which each of the partners in education, including parents, students and teachers, was invited to make an oral submission. A plenary session with all the partners was held on 12 October 2005.
Time spent with the partners, both at meetings and in analysing their written submissions, provided the task force not only with insights into issues of concern for their various constituencies, but with a deep appreciation of the complexity of student behaviour. That process of consultation with the partners in education has provided an opportunity for all the major stakeholders in our education system to be intimately involved in the work of the task force and to inform its final report and recommendations.
In recognition that school is only one facet of a young person's life and the realisation that some students come into contact with a variety of agencies other than the school, the task force also identified and consulted several agencies and advocacy groups with high levels of expertise and relevance in the area of youth and schooling.
Ten consultative fora were held around the country at several second level schools, as well as centres of alternative provision such as Youthreach centres and Youth Encounter programmes. Those fora allowed the task force to flesh out in a very real way many of the written submissions that came to it from a variety of sources.
The task force delivered its interim report in June 2005. Although that report refrained from making recommendations, it provided the framework for subsequent discussions with the partners in education that have informed the recommendations contained in the final report.
The interim report concentrated on an analysis of the nature of the issue and a refining of the emerging areas likely to require recommendations in its final report. In line with the terms of reference given to the task force, the interim report examined the nature, scale and impact of disruptive behaviour, the effectiveness of strategies employed at present to address disruptions and best practice nationally and internationally in promoting positive behaviour. Following that, the report set out areas that it would examine in making recommendations in the final report.
Regarding the nature, scale and impact of disruptive behaviour, the report found that breaches of school discipline are on a continuum ranging from relatively minor infringements to gross misbehaviour. At the less serious end, the report contains a range of frequently cited examples, which include non-stop talking, coming late for class, failure to bring relevant class materials, constantly challenging the teacher's authority and using mobile telephones in ways and times that are inappropriate.
At the other end of the continuum are issues of gross indiscipline posing severe risks to the safety and well-being of teachers and peers. Those incidences, while very limited, can be extremely serious. The impact of misbehaviour is varied, but it includes a lowering of morale in the school community, inroads into valuable teaching and learning time and cumulative stress for teachers in the performance of their work.
The data reported give a flavour of the kinds of disruption that schools are encountering. In scale, the data suggest that the perpetrators represent about 5% to 10% of the school population, of which those engaged in extreme behaviour represent a very small proportion of students. There is also evidence to suggest that the challenging behaviour documented may not be found in some schools and, where it occurs, may be more manifest in some schools than in others. It would be wrong to give the impression that this crisis is general and affects every school in the country.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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No, but it is a serious problem where it occurs.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The reason that I set up the task force in the first instance was that I recognised that this had the potential to become a very serious problem. Having been asked by the ASTI and the TUI to do so, I was very swift in obliging and asking the commission to report speedily.
Regarding the effectiveness of strategies currently employed to address disruption, the report documents a range of measures or variables that enable schools to promote a positive school environment. Those include the building of healthy relationships within the school; a school culture that is pastoral, effective leadership and skilled, dedicated staff, active teaching methodologies that involve differentiated teaching, meaningful parental involvement, giving students a voice, a broad curriculum that meets the needs of all learners; access to a range of extracurricular activities, a positive behaviour policy that is owned and consistently implemented and good structures and supports operating effectively in the school. On the matter of best practice nationally and internationally, the interim report found that international research tended to stress the same broad range of success factors as I have outlined.
As I said, having examined the nature, scale and impact of disruptive behaviour, the effectiveness of strategies currently employed to address disruption and best practice nationally and internationally, the interim report set out a framework in which the task force would consider recommendations for the final report. Its final report was delivered to me in late January and will be published in March. At that point, I will set out the steps that will be taken to respond to its recommendations.
Tonight, however, I would like to highlight some of the steps that I have taken in the past year to deal with the types of issues that I identified earlier as crucial to ensuring a positive learning environment. While the task force has been working on making specific recommendations for future action in this area, I have at the same time prioritised improvements in training and support services for teachers, greater access to leadership development for school principals and the provision of more guidance counsellors.
Regarding teacher training, it is vital that we prioritise continuous professional development for teachers if we are to help them stay at the top of their game. In the current context, we all know that the standard of teaching can have a major motivating, or demotivating, impact on student behaviour. My commitment to this area is clear from the fact that this year my Department's provision for in-service training is nearly €27 million. That represents an increase of 15% on the figure for 2005. There was also a similar increase in the preceding year.
Apart from providing improved training opportunities for teachers, I have also focused on improving the training that we give to school principals through a major expansion of the leadership development for schools service. The LDS programme recognises the beneficial impact that leadership can have in promoting a positive school climate conducive to learning and teaching. LDS programmes cover areas such as strategies to promote positive behaviour in the school, human resource management skills to empower teachers and help those who might be disaffected, ways of involving students in school decision-making and the importance of good communication between the whole school community. The LDS programme has expanded in the past two years from a focus on new school principals to working with established principals and is an initiative that I intend to develop further in the years ahead.
Over the past year, I have stressed to teachers' groups the need for all schools to have a student council. Deputy Enright said that there should be a group of schools where students have a voice and are strongly involved.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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We do not need a pilot since all schools should have a student council which should give their students a voice. All schools should insist that students sign up to their policies.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister give them that?
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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This is not on a pilot basis. In all school policies, including on bullying, behaviour and safety, students should always have a voice. At second level, that is what is happening.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Of course it is not happening in every school, but I stress that we will not do this only on a pilot basis as I want every school to do it.
I strongly believe that one cannot simply teach students about rights and responsibilities in the CSPE class, one must also give them actual responsibilities in the place where they spend much of their day. Many schools have found that giving students a say in school decision-making has helped create a sense of partnership between students and staff and contributed to developing a positive environment in the school. A working group on student councils has recently completed very valuable work in this area and produced much material, including a website, to support schools in the establishment and operation of effective student councils.
The other group that must have a voice in the school is parents. They are partners in education and must be genuinely involved in the education of young people. It is not sufficient simply to have two parents on the board of management or involved in fundraising. Their active involvement can ensure that aside from issues like behaviour, all other good practices in schools can also be far more effective.
In the past year, I have also stressed my commitment to supporting educational pathways outside the school system which may be better suited to the needs of some students than is the formal school system. This is not, as Deputy Enright suggested, a permanent separate parallel school system for those students who do not fit. While some Members have sought to focus solely on leaving certificate results and entry to third level education as a measurement of our young people's educational attainment, I have criticised this attitude at every opportunity. I am committed to reform our school curriculum, where necessary, to make it more relevant and to ensure that it meets the needs of today's students.
I also strongly believe that those young people who decide that an apprenticeship or other training opportunity outside school better meets their needs should be supported in that decision, so they are genuinely given an opportunity to reach their full potential as individuals. However, I reject outright the determination of Fine Gael——
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should come off it.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should read the proposals.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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——to focus solely on leaving certificate results. Publishing leaving certificate results would send an extremely strong message to students, that is, unless one's grades are high, one is a failure.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not the case. That is not what has been proposed.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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This would only serve to demotivate and alienate many of our young people, which would ensure that their complete exclusion from the school system.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Minister is not being fair to the Fine Gael proposal.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It would also guarantee that schools would make sure not to retain such students——
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should go back to school herself. She has failed the test.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Schools would not want such students if they thought their results would be published.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister suggested sending such children to the Garda.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of supporting individual students to make the correct decisions, I have also prioritised the provision of extra guidance teachers for our second level schools. All second level schools receive ex-quota hours from the Department to provide guidance and counselling to their students. Recognised guidance counsellors are qualified to identify difficulties which students may be experiencing or to provide counselling support, on an individual or group basis. Counselling can assist students to address behavioural issues, develop coping strategies or resolve personal difficulties. The importance I attach to the guidance function in schools is evidenced by my announcement last April of an extra 100 guidance teachers for the current school year. Under the new action plan for disadvantaged schools, DEIS, this week 200 second level schools were invited to participate in the process. They will be given enhanced——
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Minister allocated less than €15 million this year for this purpose.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I have allocated funds to 200 schools, when initially I announced that I would only cater for 150. Hence, the Department has invited 200 schools to participate in the process. They will receive enhanced guidance and supports. In addition, they will be provided with home-school community liaison which I accept to be extremely important for such schools by linking the students with parents and the wider community. Other supports include the junior certificate support programme, the leaving certificate applied, the school completion programme and other initiatives. As Deputy Crawford rightly noted we must try to use the carrot rather than the stick. The provision of these extra supports to 200 schools can help where there are particular difficulties and particular disadvantage.
Hence, in the past year I have taken a variety of actions in a range of areas which I believe will help to improve the learning environment in our schools. These will be supplemented by specific actions to be taken in response to the recommendations of the final report of the task force on student behaviour. As I stated earlier, I will set out the steps which I will take after the launch of the report in a few weeks' time. I have indicated my clear intention of acting on this issue in a measured and effective manner. To this end, I have secured the provision of €2 million in my Department's Estimates for 2006 to enable me to begin acting on the recommendations of the task force's final report immediately. I am unaware of any other situation in which money will be provided to implement recommendations of a report before it has been received, let alone published.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister established a teachers' council without legislative back up.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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My commitment to action is clear in this respect.
As for section 29 of the Education Act, if one of the recommendations will be to the effect that some action should be taken in this regard, I am open to it.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister already has the report.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I will not reveal its contents to the Deputy until its publication.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If the Minister already knows whether this is one of the task force's recommendations——
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Schools must be made aware that in the first couple of years of the operation of section 29, the vast majority of appeals went against the schools. However, in more recent years, where schools have proper policies and procedures in place, they have won appeals against the students at a rate of three or four to one. It comes down to having the proper procedures in place. This is an issue which teachers have suggested should be examined. I welcome the fact that the House is having a debate, albeit an alarmist one on the part of the Opposition.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the report itself is alarmist.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It might have been somewhat more realistic if this debate had taken place after the report's publication.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Fine Gael did not know when the report was due to be published.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I look forward to such a debate.
I wish to thank the task force. I established it having been asked by teachers, and particularly by the ASTI and the TUI, to tackle this issue. The group of people who were assembled to so do came from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences which they brought to bear during their consideration of the issue.
All Members want to ensure that there are proper learning and teaching environments and that the right of every child to learn and the right of every teacher to teach should be maintained. When I publish the report, I will set out my approach to the issue in terms of how I intend to implement its recommendations and also to ensuring that the necessary measures will have the requisite funding for its implementation in the coming years. The interests of education and of all children within the existing school system and within the existing alternative system is one which I intend to pursue.
9:00 pm
Cecilia Keaveney (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad to share time with the Minister in respect of this serious issue. I must declare my interest as a former teacher although in the main I taught not in the Irish system but in other jurisdictions where one encountered other issues pertaining to disruptive pupils and approaches to dealing with them. I spent the afternoon in the company of a secondary school principal and when I mentioned the possibility that I might speak on this issue he replied that it is extremely important to realise that most pupils are not disruptive. It is disingenuous for people to give the impression that the majority of pupils are disruptive. While a small number of people can cause much trouble in a class, the vast majority of pupils attend for the right reasons and want to be there. However, the minority can take up much time.
I wish to compliment the Minister regarding her stance on these issues. I will discuss the task force later. As for considering what is useful when a child is disruptive, it is clear that schools must have a policy on most issues. A school which is clear, sure and confident about itself will put together such policies, which must be of a high standard. I have had my own arguments with the Minister regarding some schools which, possibly because they are new, do not have a reputation for early school leaving on the part of pupils or have not had problems which would prove they are prone to early school leaving. The Minister's argument has been that she does not wish to create an assumption that people would be negatively disposed simply because they come from backgrounds which historically would have predisposed them to be early school leavers, or otherwise. While I argue and debate the issue with the Minister, I commend the idea that she does not label children as being disruptive, as early school leavers, or anything else. She takes the facts and addresses them.
If a school has considered its children's needs and if its board of management has sufficient respect for its students and its partners in education to put together policies of sufficiently high standard on the many issues which must be addressed, the vast majority of students in the school will aspire to the highest standard. This is not stated often enough. We always focus on the negative rather than on the positive. Having discussed this issue with many teachers, children want to know what are the rules and what is expected of them. The higher the bar presented to them, the more they will aspire to that bar. This does not take away from the fact that some people can, for various reasons, cause disruption in a class. Some of those people are causing a disruption in the class on the basis that we accept that all-inclusive education is the right way forward in most situations. There are people coming into the schools with physical or other difficulties and we are embracing many backgrounds and many different difficulties, which are seen by many as challenges but by many schools as opportunities for integration. No matter how one goes about that, it will ultimately cause an issue of difference which must be dealt with. While some would call it a disruption, congratulations are due in this regard to the Minister and to her predecessors in the Department over the past few years.
One of my first debates in this House was ten years ago, bar a couple of months, when I was in Opposition. There was a special school in Buncrana, Scoil Íosagáin, which had a special class for students with moderate difficulties. It was an Adjournment debate and Deputy Allen was the Minister of State in the Department at the time.
Cecilia Keaveney (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to raise the issue that the special assistant in that class for moderately handicapped students was to be removed when the class for severely handicapped students was formed. It was deemed unnecessary to have a special assistant in a class of moderately handicapped children and they were to be moved to the class for severely handicapped students. I was eager to present my case. As I recall, it was my first Adjournment debate matter. Unfortunately, Deputy Allen was given the wrong school and came in with the wrong information about the school. As Deputies are aware, the Adjournment debate can be frustrating when a new Deputy finds he or she is not even getting the answer on the real issue.
Cecilia Keaveney (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not as frustrating for me because that school went from that position to having a number of special classes where there is one-to-one tuition for the students, there are special needs assistants, the staff complement has expanded beyond all recognition and this year they have been included in the school building programme. Considering what has happened since the year I came in here fighting the case for their special needs assistant in the class for moderately handicapped children to be retained rather than taken away for the class for severely handicapped students and the personnel currently in their classroom, I can stand over and be proud of the massive supports that have gone into the classroom to provide that extra pair of hands where they are needed. Such extra staff are needed if the child has a special need. There has been constant review and monitoring of who is in the class and who needs that support. I agree people will argue their child is not being accommodated but there is a mechanism in place to ensure those who need it most get the support.
The record shows clearly that the position is improving. There are more teachers in the classroom. There are smaller class sizes. School buildings are improving. Where in the past the special needs assistant would have taken out what might have been considered either a person who needed more support or a disruptive child into dusty windy cloakrooms, they now are taking them into rooms within the building and there has been massive support in that regard.
There are still issues that need to be addressed in the case of apprenticeships, future opportunities and early school leaving. For the person who is not particularly academic, I accept there are other avenues of approach. It would be remiss of me to use the short time available and not plug the issue of early intervention, particularly at pre-school and at early primary school, in the arts sector. Usually the reasons pupils are disruptive stem from something outside the classroom environment, such as a social problem at home, a psychological problem or an academic problem resulting in the pupil falling far behind. An arts-based or a less academic intervention at an earlier age might mean the student is more able at second level to participate fully in the academic field.
I have not seen the report of the task force set up by the Minister. This debate might have been more appropriate at a time when we have seen that and can debate the issues involved. The setting up of the task force was important. The Minister mentioned there is funding to deal with the recommendations of the task force. It is one of the most important issues. I commend the Minister for the serious advantage she is helping create for children. She comes from a teaching background. She has been in the school. She understands the issues and she is trying to address them in a coherent and structured fashion. It is not appropriate to jump up and down about an issue. One must examine and deal in a concerted and significant way with the issues. This Minister has proven in her approach that she is taking it in a measured fashion, which is the right way to do it.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I thank the Fine Gael Party and commend Deputy Enright for tabling this motion, which my party will be supporting. I had hoped the Minister might produce the task force report for us tonight, in view of the fact the motion was tabled and it is almost March and the start of Lent.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It would have been unfair to Dr. Maeve Martin.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I hoped she might give us more of a hint of what was in it, besides telling us what was in the interim report which we already know.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I will leave that to Dr. Martin too.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue. I want to approach it a little differently in so far as I want to concentrate as much as I can on the children who may be described as the problem or part of the problem and on the need to give children the opportunity to succeed rather than fail. I like to think we could intervene with many of these young people before they get to the point where they are causing serious disruption for other children in whatever school they attend and before we get to the point where we see measures like section 29 of the Education Act being brought into the picture.
I was interested in the interim report of the task force because much of its emphasis was on trying to create a school culture which is inclusive and which tries to address the issues caused by the big changes in the past 20 or more years. We have moved from a situation where there was a highly authoritarian regime, where the teacher could give the child a clip on the ear and where the child was afraid of the teacher. All of that sort of behaviour is completely gone. There now is a totally different situation in schools. We need to concentrate on how we can make school a positive experience for all children rather than on simply seeing them as a problem. That is why if there were any teachers listening tonight — I suppose there will be some reading this report — I hope they will forgive me for spending no time at all speaking about the problem as it is perceived by teachers but instead speaking about how the child experiences school at present.
One of the measures we must take if we are to prevent this kind of disruption is intervention at an earlier stage with children who have problems in school. Those problems are usually identified at an early stage in school, if not even before they go to school. One sees many of these problems arising at primary school level. For example, the recent literacy figures, both in the study from St. Patrick's College and in the Minister's educational disadvantage group, show that there is clearly a serious literacy problem evident in many children, and in up to 50% of children in a small number of schools, coming out of the primary school system. Those children inevitably will cause disruption at second level because they will not be able to participate. The ones with the serious difficulties are the small percentage who are supposed to be addressed in this task force but there are many other children who have difficulties, although perhaps not at the extreme end. If we do not intervene, we will set ourselves all sorts of recipes for the future and this task force report will not make a scrap of difference because there will continue to be children who cause disruption. The way to address it is not to police them and kick them out of schools but to ensure there is a positive system.
The Minister is planning to introduce standardised testing at two stages in the primary school system. No child should have to leave primary school without being literate and numerate and, therefore, when these tests come on stream, the children who need additional support at primary level should be identifiable. Such support should be given to them so that when they enter second level, they can have a positive experience at school. The State has the capacity to do that.
I take issue with the Minister regarding the introduction of the weighted system for resource teaching because many children who need support attend schools in which other children need support but do not receive it. The Minister has deprived a number of inner city schools in Dublin and other disadvantaged schools of resource support they seriously need.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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A total of 5,000 teachers — 20% of the teaching cohort — do nothing but deal with children with learning difficulties.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Many of teachers are in schools that do not need them and not enough of them are in schools where they are needed. That is an important issue. Support should be provided where it is needed. When standardised testing is introduced, the Department will be in a better position to determine that. However, no child should leave school without being literate.
The provision of special needs support at second level is also problematic, which Deputy Keaveney touched on in her contribution. Second level schools do not have the supports many children with learning difficulties such as dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder need. Improved supports need to be given to these children. Many of them who received support at primary level lose it when they transfer to second level and it takes a while for the second level schools to secure the support they need subsequently. This issue also needs to be addressed.
The interim task force report may well result in good, positive proposals regarding support for schools in the provision of quality leadership and so on and in addressing their ethos and culture. In particular, I am concerned about students buying into the system provided by the school and knowing what is expected of them, while at the same time the school should only expect what the child can give. Many schools have pupils who are aiming to score 500 points or more but who, at their absolute best, might only be capable of achieving 300 points. A culture must be developed in schools whereby young people are rewarded for achieving their best performance. They need to be encouraged much more to achieve their best rather than setting other——
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That will not be achieved by publishing results.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I will not get into an argument about results because this is a much broader issue. The atmosphere and culture that prevails in schools is important and the student voice is important in that regard. Student councils are needed in all schools. A significant number of schools do not have such councils and I suspect they do not always have an effective role and voice in the schools in which they have been established. I am sorry the Minister did not appoint a student to the task force. It comprises adults, all of whom are education practitioners.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It was not practical given the number of sessions held by the task force.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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A few months ago, I attended a forum in Kilkenny where school students were brought together with various education professionals and asked for their views, especially on the school curriculum. Students feel their voice is not heard much of the time.
With regard to the discipline issue, children are described as the problem. The group is called the task force on discipline and it is about young people being a problem, which is a pity. However, a number of members of the task force have represented the voice of young people who have difficulties in school.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Students had oral hearings and they were central to the task force's deliberations.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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John Hanna, a former principal of St. Augustine's school in Limerick, is a member of the task force. St. Augustine's is a youth project which does excellent work for young people for whom regular school is not appropriate because they failed to have a positive and nurturing experience. Alternative provision is needed for certain young people but it should not be imposed on them after they have been perceived as a problem and thrown out of other schools.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Young people who may be better off in a different environment should be identified at an earlier stage so that hey can have a positive experience. That is what schools such as St. Augustine's provide. The XLC project in Waterford also takes in children who have been removed from other schools. I do not know whether the Minister is familiar with Nuala Jackson's XLC project but she works with young people who were considered not to be capable by other schools of passing the junior certificate, for example, but who are capable of achieving good results. The project uses a pedagogue, which is inclusive of the young people. The project leaders sit down with the young people and agree with them what they might be able to achieve by setting targets, into which the young people buy. It is a different approach which is used in other countries.
The Marino Institute of Education published a report in October 2001 entitled, Addressing the Needs of Under 15s: A Study of Alternative Educational Provision in Selected Countries. It suggests that in many countries alternative provision similar to the XLC project provides an opportunity for young people who work better outside the education system. Ideally, that system should be provided in schools but, given the large class sizes in Ireland, it is much more difficult to develop that. The report states:
The Department of Education and Science has to recognise that the educational system cannot cater for the needs of all young people to whom it has a legal obligation. Therefore, alternative programmes are necessary and are needed. The educational system in Ireland has and continues to serve many young people well but it should not be expected to serve adequately all young people since certain needs and demands will exceed what the system can address.
An alternative is suggested. The Minister should consider alternative provision because I would much prefer if young people who could prosper in such a system were identified earlier and given the opportunity to succeed rather than drop out, as they would under the current system.
The latest ESRI statistics on early school leaving highlight that 18% of pupils leave school without the leaving certificate but, more disturbingly, 21% of them were still unemployed one year after leaving school compared with 11% of a similar cohort in 1999. Despite Ireland having what economists often describe as full employment, the percentage of early school leavers who end up unemployed is increasing rather than reducing. It must be recognised that the school system is not serving a significant proportion of young people. Many of them can be catered for within the system if it is amended and, for example, respect is afforded to the leaving certificate applied and it is given value by providing for points to be scored. The culture within schools should be improved so that children capable of attaining 300 points are treated the same as those capable of attaining 500 points.
It must also be recognised that an alternative system would be better for some children. Such a system should be provided and resourced. St. Augustine's in Limerick has a waiting list and people cannot get into the school, even though it is badly resourced. The XLC project in Waterford was set up privately and it is only becoming part of mainstream education now as part of the school completion programme in conjunction with schools in Waterford. Many of the alternatives had to be set up by committed people, not by the system. We need to be more holistic about this issue and to address it in a child and student-centred manner rather than make it an issue about children who cause trouble for everyone. They too have a right to education and we must balance their rights with those of others. I accept what Deputy Enright and her colleagues have said about the rights of the other children in a school. However, we will never solve the problem unless we also address the rights and needs of children who do not fit into school. That is the reason I wanted to focus on this area which often gets little attention.
I am glad to see that people like Nuala Jackson in Waterford are finally being heard. I hope we will hear John Hanna's voice in the final report of the task force, which we have not got yet. I have heard him speak many times about how these young people begin to blossom when they realise they can be a success and are not constantly described as not being able to fit into the system. There was a time when if children did not behave they were put in the corner. Whatever happens as a result of the task force report, I would not like to think that we will simply send these children to the corner. We must address their needs or — I do not like saying this following what happened on Saturday — many of them will end up breaking blocks and throwing stones, or in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's new fancy prison in north Dublin.
We must intervene at an early stage where we identify problems and the education system is the best tool we have to do this. We must give children with learning difficulties or disinterested home backgrounds the support they need in school. We must also provide for the needs of these children at second level.
This debate has been useful, but I am sorry it is not taking place in the context of having the full report.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should have waited a few weeks.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We asked five times when it would be published, but we got no answer.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I do not understand why the Minister has held on to it for so long and not shared it with the rest of us.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I was preparing the action plan at the same time.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It would be interesting if the voices of Opposition Members and interests outside the House were heard in——
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Deputy make a submission? Deputies had the opportunity to make an input when the task force was working, not after it.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I am talking about the implementation of the task force's recommendations. The Minister implied she was planning the implementation before she let us see what was in the report. I respectfully suggest it might be more useful if we and other interested bodies, such as parents, students and teachers, could have a look at what is in the report and have a say in how it should be implemented.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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They had a say in what was in it. The Deputy's contribution would have been valuable at that stage.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I hope the Minister has heard what I have said tonight.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I will sum up. This important topic is about future opportunities for our children. I welcome the motion tabled by the Fine Gael Party and supported by the Labour Party. I hope that when the task force report is published we will have a further opportunity to debate the issues and ensure the recommendations are implemented for the good of all the children in our schools.