Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes when one comes into the Chamber to ask Leaders' questions, one is expected to be entirely political, but today I believe I speak for everybody in the House in saying I feel really saddened at the events that led to the death of two young boys and their mother yesterday evening in Firhouse.

I would like to refer to another tragedy in the House today because, in referring to it, I also believe I can speak for everybody in the House. The 25th anniversary of the Stardust tragedy was marked in the past two nights by RTE in compelling programmes that made heart-breaking viewing. All parents who watched them had their hearts in their mouths and as they watched they knew something the young men and women who were getting ready for a night out at the Stardust did not know, that is, that they would never come home. It is all too easy for those of us who are parents to thank God that they were not our children or that we were not involved. It is unimaginable for parents to think of what it must be like to live through such a tragedy for even one day without knowing the truth or the reason it occurred, yet the parents of the 48 young people who lost their lives in the Stardust have had to live through and endure not one but 9,000 days without knowing the truth and without closure on this tragedy, the saddest ever to happen in Dublin.

Nobody in this House can deliver the young lives back to their people — it cannot be done. One of the people directly involved said to me that when the remains were carried out of the Stardust, they were stripped of their clothing and, as a consequence, stripped of their dignity. The hundreds of telephone calls received from all over Ireland testify to the deep-rooted feeling that we should try to do something about this and bring a sense of finality and closure to those who have had to live with the consequences of the tragedy for 25 years.

I find it bizarre that a licensed premises with the same name as the one in which the young people congregated before the tragedy is opening this evening and that an application exists for a development on the same site. I know the families of those who lost their lives have sought a meeting with the Taoiseach for some time. He is not a person who shirks meetings. In the interests of doing something positive about this now, will he consent to attending a meeting with the families at an early stage? It is important that he should hear their views in light of whatever other evidence emerges on "Prime Time" this evening.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Like every other Member of the House, I share Deputy Kenny's views on the terrible tragedy that occurred in Firhouse yesterday. In these times, it is not often that an event absolutely shocks everybody, but we all feel for the families of those who died, as well as the extended family and the neighbourhood. It is something that has shocked everybody.

I think I speak for everyone in the House today when I say that our thoughts are with the families of those who died in the Stardust fire, which was one of the biggest tragedies in this country in modern times. People think of the victims at various times, such as anniversaries. That those who died were, as Deputy Kenny said, young people who were out for a night's entertainment at a disco made the tragedy all the more terrible. We think of them particularly today.

I do not want to get into an argument about who looked for a meeting or when they looked for one. My programme manager met the representatives of the families on foot of one particular request for a meeting, but I was not in attendance. I do not have a problem with meeting the families. I have met individual family members over the years at various events. It is clear from the submissions which were made to various inquiries which took place at the time that this is like many other cases. It has not been resolved because clear conclusions have not been reached. It is reminiscent of many events in Northern Ireland, for example, or the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. We all understand that the torment of victims' families continues if closure is not achieved.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has forwarded recent correspondence from the Stardust committee about the tragedy to the forensic science laboratory for its consideration. The Department will contact the members of the committee as soon as the laboratory's response to the most recent correspondence has been received. When the committee issued a report to the Department in 2004, it was forwarded to the Garda Commissioner and the laboratory, both of which advised the Department at that time that the report contained no new evidence. The Minister, Deputy McDowell, has said many times that the Department will assist the families in any way it can if new submissions or further information are received.

I understand that tonight's "Prime Time" will outline details of some new forensic evidence. If such information is passed on to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform by "Prime Time" or the Stardust committee, it will be examined fully. It is obvious that the Department will base its approach on the advice of the Garda Commissioner and the forensic science laboratory. That is where it opens. There was a public inquiry into all these matters. It is only on that basis that these matters could be opened up.

Today is a day for remembering those who died, were injured and were traumatised. Many people have lived for many years with multiple injuries. The Stardust tragedy has had devastating effects not only on the families who were affected but also on the extended community in the relevant areas of north Dublin.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for agreeing to meet the group whenever that is appropriate. I would like to raise two other matters. There have been phenomenal advances in forensic evidence and the capacity to determine DNA in recent years. The remains of five people were buried without their identities being known. A number of families would like progress to be made in this regard. I understand that tonight's "Prime Time" will deal with information that is already in the public domain as well as some new information.

We need to bring a sense of closure to this matter. It would be too easy to call for another public inquiry. Can I suggest to the Taoiseach that an investigation like that conducted by Mr. Justice Cory would be appropriate in this instance? All the information that is available should be analysed and considered again. A recommendation should be made, based on the findings of a person of repute and experience, on whether an investigation, an inquiry or a tribunal is necessary. That would be an effective and inexpensive way of bringing a sense of finality and closure to this sad saga, in the public interest. It would be of particular interest to the parents of the young people who were in the Stardust, especially those with memories of the 48 people who passed away. Perhaps the Taoiseach will consider an inquiry of that nature if anything of particular interest emerges in the coming days.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said in my initial response to Deputy Kenny, if information is deemed to be new information, it will be examined. The Minister has made that clear and I am doing so again. The Garda will revisit the investigation that was conducted if the information is new and warrants a re-examination of these matters. The information that was passed on was examined by the Department and especially by the Garda Commissioner and the forensic science laboratory, which employs people who are experts in this regard. They found that the information, which was previously available, was fully addressed by the tribunal at the time. If genuinely new information that stands up to scrutiny becomes available, it will be considered.

Deputy Kenny correctly pointed out that DNA technology has moved on significantly over the past quarter of a century. Substantial resources have been invested in this area over the past 25 years. New issues can be considered in the context of the Stardust tragedy. The issue of a new tribunal of inquiry or examination will not arise unless the information that comes to light is new and was not looked at by the tribunal of inquiry that produced a report at the time. We will see what is made available. The Minister has met and worked with the committee that represents the families when issues have arisen in recent years. The Garda Commissioner and the forensic science laboratory have also worked with the group and will do so again if new issues arise.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I join Deputy Kenny and the Taoiseach in offering my condolences to the family in my constituency that was destroyed by a terrible tragedy that visited it yesterday. I wish to associate myself with the remarks which were made by the Taoiseach and Deputy Kenny. What happened to the family in question, which was known in the area as a lovely family, is almost beyond belief.

It seems to me that three separate issues need to be considered as we reflect on the unimaginable grief of those who were bereaved by the Stardust fire. The families in question believe that some legitimate questions have not been answered. Has the Government provided for a suitable vehicle to facilitate the grieving families in getting answers to the legitimate questions which continue to affect them? The second issue relates to the unidentified bodies of five people who are buried in a communal grave. The third thing is whether something like this appalling tragedy could happen again. For the first issue, Deputy Kenny suggested something along the lines of Judge Cory's investigation that may have merit. An alternative is to look at what happened in the Dean Lyons case, which I pursued in this House for many years, including with the present Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He appointed a senior counsel to review the papers to give advice on what would be the appropriate inquiry or investigation to put in place. In this case, such a senior counsel, appointed by the Minister, would have access to all of the Garda reports and all the tribunal papers. He would be able to advise the Minister whether and what kind of investigation would be appropriate. I agree with Deputy Kenny and I raise this in a politically non-partisan fashion. On the face of it, I agree with what he said about another tribunal of inquiry. It should be noted that the Government demanded that the Widgery tribunal be re-opened after 25 years. That may not be a particular good example, but that is our position. The Government has also taken up a position on the cold case review in Northern Ireland.

It is not our job on this side of the House to raise hopes that cannot be met. This is a working class community whose members feel that if it was located in some other part of Dublin, they would not be left floundering for answers. They feel there are legitimate questions that have not been answered and that it should not be beyond the competence of this House to put in place a methodology of investigation that at least seeks to answer some of the outstanding legitimate questions. The Keane tribunal found that the forensic investigation of the site was inadequate. A number of other matters have been raised and we do not know what will come from tonight's programme. The Taoiseach should commit to something either along the lines of Judge Cory or to something like the appointment of Mr. Shane Murphy SC by the Minister to review the papers, assess the evidence and to make recommendations to the Minister about what method of investigation, if any, would be appropriate.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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These issues have not just been raised for the first time. The committee of the families have been putting forward their suggestions and they submitted their report. They had on-going contact with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which I understand had worked out very well. The report went through the Department and on to the Garda Commissioner and to the forensic science laboratory where it was examined in detail two years ago. They concluded that these issues had been adequately addressed by the tribunal of inquiry. I hear the Members when they state that perhaps that formation is not the best way of looking at it, but it was agreed at the time that this was what would happen. If any new evidence comes forward, the Department has undertaken that it will follow through with the same process. If the present system is not detailed enough and a more structured way is preferred, then I am not ruling that out. However, my understanding is that the information has been examined in great detail by the Department, the Commissioner and by the forensic science laboratory. They concluded that there was nothing new that could open it up.

If the issue of the deceased in the communal grave has not been dealt with, I will raise it again with the Department. My note does not state if this was part of the 2004 report. This is not a case where there was not a detailed tribunal. This was probably the biggest issue at the time. It was the subject of the Keane tribunal, was investigated very thoroughly and remained the subject of on-going changes in so many parts of our legislation such as the Building Control Bill 2005, the fire Bill, other regulations and fire services legislation. The events had a profound effect on how we dealt with other issues. We can never say that a tragedy will not happen, but one can try to make sure that the lessons and the recommendations from the tribunal are taken into account.

If information arises from the programme, the Minister, the Government, the Garda and the forensic science laboratory are prepared to look at it. If that requires some more formalised way of doing it, the Government would not rule it out.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is right in saying that this is not the first time this matter has been raised. Deputy Broughan raised it a couple of weeks ago. However, I read his contribution when he raised it on 14 February 2001 and the answers given then are exactly the same. The Taoiseach says that he is aware of the unanswered questions out there, but we have not put anything in place to seek to address those questions. If this unimaginable horror had befallen another community in a better off part of this city — I hope it never will — there is a feeling that we would have moved faster. It has not escaped people in the area that the first person to get compensation was the owner of the premises. He was successful in suing what is now Dublin City Council for malicious damage. It would be helpful if the Taoiseach gave an unequivocal answer that he will meet the relatives; not his programme manager, nor his Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is something he ought to have done before now.

I heard in disbelief this morning — I do not know if it is true — that this opening is going ahead tonight. I find it unbelievably insensitive to put it mildly. I cannot believe that it is true. Will the Taoiseach respond to the concerns expressed by the fire officers recently on the chances of such a tragedy happening again? They raised concerns about the efficiency, efficacy and consistency of the provisions there at the moment. The major recommendation of the Keane inquiry into the Stardust tragedy was that a national fire authority ought to be established. That recommendation was made 25 years ago but it has not been done. The Government brought in consultants in response to Deputy Broughan's pursuit of this matter a few years ago. The consultants reported that there ought to be a national fire authority and the Minister of the day hinted that it would be implemented. It was not implemented. The least we owe the grieving relatives of the Stardust tragedy is to take every reasonable step open to us to ensure no such horror is ever visited on a section of our people again.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to get into an argument about meeting the relatives. One of the relatives continually says they have sought meetings with me, as if they have done so every week and that I will not meet them. That is not the case.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I do not want to argue. I just want the Taoiseach to agree to meet them.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem meeting the relatives. However, I do not want the Deputy to think I have refused to meet them. The fact is that only one request was made four years ago. On that occasion, when I was not available, my programme manager met them. Other families have been in contact with me. There is no argument about this. I have no problem meeting the relatives.

It is not the case that nothing has happened in the past five years. The detailed report was prepared on behalf of the Stardust committee and given to the Garda Commissioner and the forensic science laboratory two years ago. Following a series of meetings between representatives of the Stardust committee, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, his Department, the Garda Commissioner and the forensic science laboratory, that report was examined in detail. While matters have been ongoing over the years, this aspect was very recent and concluded in November 2004. I reiterate that if new evidence or an issue that requires re-examination arises, the Government will consider it.

With regard to what has happened since the tragedy, last week I read information from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on how the fire service has moved on since that time, the recommendations that were made and the follow-up decisions taken over the life of many Governments, including the Fire Services Act 1981, the Building Control Act 1990, the Licensing of Indoor Events Act 2003 and all kinds of procedures. It was decided not to follow the Keane tribunal's recommendations exactly but to proceed in a different way because it was believed this would be more effective. That is why the agency was not set up. That process has been followed for 25 years and huge resources have been put into it.

Unfortunately, one cannot say such a tragedy will never happen again but progress has been made with legislation, resources and staff. For example, in 1981 there were only four fire prevention officers in the Dublin area whereas there are now 34, with more than 100 working nationwide. A huge number of inspections——

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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There are just seven in Dublin.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are 34 fire prevention staff working in Dublin compared with four in 1981, and 100 nationwide.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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There are seven in the district office.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am quoting the figures. All of this highlights the major changes that have taken place.

As it is the anniversary and we are debating the issue in the House, I want to make clear that we want to help the families who have lived with this for 25 years. They have had much engagement with the Garda Síochána in the intervening period. If new issues arise or issues are not fully resolved, we should try to——

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Taoiseach knows there are new issues so why does he not order a commission of inquiry?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is Leaders' Questions. Deputy Broughan is not the leader of his party. He should allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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He knows most of all.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If there are new issues, I have spelt out how they can be dealt with.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I join Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte in an expression of sympathy to the Keegan family and to all those bereaved by the tragedy that occurred yesterday in Firhouse. We are also mindful of the hurt and pain of neighbours in the wider community and of young school friends in that wider catchment.

The Taoiseach referred in his responses to Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte to new evidence concerning the Stardust tragedy of 25 years ago last night, St. Valentine's eve. Does the Taoiseach accept that the conclusion reached by the tribunal that the cause of the fire was probably arson was deeply flawed and had no basis in evidence? When he talks about new evidence, does the Taoiseach note that the basis for a new investigation has existed not just arising from the current series of television programmes but for some five years as a result of details concerning the Garda investigation that were leaked to the authors of the book on the tragedy five years ago? These included key witness statements that were not taken into account by the tribunal when it sat.

There is already a basis for the Taoiseach to agree this point, irrespective of what may or may not arise from tonight's programme. I join the appeal to the Taoiseach to meet the relatives of the Stardust victims.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He should not wait, if he is suggesting there is a difference between a knock on the door and a request, but should indicate openly that he will invite the relatives to meet him. That would be appropriate and he would have all our support and endorsement for such a stance. I urge the Taoiseach to put in place a new investigation, which is critical.

Does the Taoiseach agree it was an obscenity that the owners of the property received massive compensation while the only person hauled before the courts was the singer and songwriter, Christy Moore, whose song on the tragedy was banned in the courts at the behest of the owners of the Stardust ballroom?

Does the Taoiseach not recognise that 25 years after the Stardust tragedy, there are just 11 fire brigade ambulances in the greater city and county of Dublin plus a small complement of Health Service Executive ambulances catering to a population of in excess of 1.1 million?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does he agree that this is totally inadequate and that the only appropriate response is to recognise that every step must be taken to avoid a recurrence of such a tragedy? I want to know what steps the Government is taking in this regard.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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While I do not want to repeat myself, I will make the following points. The committee that had ongoing meetings with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials made a report which was examined by the Garda and the forensic science laboratory in November 1994. More recently, it made further submissions and the Minister has stated they will be carefully examined by the Department. As I stated at the outset, in that light the Department forwarded recent correspondence from the Stardust committee with regard to the tragedy to the forensic science laboratory for its consideration. The Department will again contact the members of the committee as soon as the laboratory's response to the most recent correspondence has been received. In the event that there is new information or advice the Minister can provide to the Stardust committee, he will meet representatives of the families.

This much has already been agreed, as I stated. The only question is whether there are new issues or issues which the families feel have not reached a satisfactory conclusion. The Keane tribunal made its detailed findings but the Government, through the Department, the Garda, the forensic science laboratory and other sections, is more than eager to deal with the families.

It is not necessary to repeat all of the issues with regard to services but, while the Deputy is correct that there are 11 fire brigade ambulances — two at Tara Street fire station and one at each of the other fire stations — the health services have 63 ambulances and 16 other vehicles that can be mobilised for the emergency plan. If the emergency plan operated as it did on that night, all the ambulances — almost 90 vehicles — would be available. That is the comparable figure. I have mentioned the other areas and financial issues.

The committee representing the families has been engaged for a protracted period with the Government. Therefore, it is not just now that the call has been made. The most recent information is being analysed by forensic scientists. If new information arises from this analysis or from reports they have already submitted, the Government will look at it.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I again ask the Taoiseach to address this issue today. I appeal to him to indicate, as an appropriate gesture on his part, that he will invite the families of the Stardust victims to meet him and indicate his willingness to establish a new investigation as all the pointers show that is what is required and what the families are requesting.

Is the Taoiseach aware that there has been no increase in the number of fire brigade ambulances for the city and county of Dublin since 1986? Over the same period there has been an increase in the number of emergency calls requiring ambulances from 26,000 to over 80,000 last year, yet the same number of ambulances are expected to cater to that voluminous demand from the wider public in moments of great need.

There is no point in adopting a defensive position on ambulance cover. Will the Taoiseach not accept that this need was never more obvious than on 21 February 2004 at Wellington Quay, when five poor citizens were mown down by a city bus? The emergency services required the despatch of eight ambulances on that occasion, leaving only three within the fire brigade service which is the first point of call-out in this city. If another emergency of similar proportion, smaller or, God forbid, even worse, were to happen within the county of Dublin, the service would not be able to cope. That is the reality. What will the Government do to address this glaring need before we find ourselves facing another avoidable tragedy?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In recent years there have been a number of occasions when, unfortunately, the emergency services were called upon to respond. The emergency plan was effective on those occasions, including the one mentioned by the Deputy, as was ambulance cover. Dublin fire brigade staff are qualified medical technicians. In addition to ambulance crews, every fire engine crew member can administer medical assistance to casualties. They are a sophisticated, well organised and disciplined group. I do not know how many requests come in for the service, but I have looked at the number of personnel involved, the extent of the resources and how the service has developed over the years, and it is impressive. Most of the stations have been rebuilt and modernised over the years.

On the main point raised by the Deputy, the evidence produced by the families and the committee has been examined extensively. In November 2004 it was considered that there was nothing to warrant further investigation within the ambit of that evidence. The further evidence given by the families is currently being examined. The Minister has made it clear that he is prepared to continue contact with the committee and the Garda on the forensic science. The question of meeting me has never been a problem. I met many members, but not the organised committee, for a different reason. I am always happy to meet groups and will be pleased to do so if it helps the situation. It is not the case that a report has not been brought forward and examined. The new evidence is currently being examined and if anything new comes up, the Government is prepared to look at it.