Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 6: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the steps he has taken or plans to take to implement the recommendations contained in the report of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, the Position of Full-Time Carers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4715/06]

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 19: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the services, supports and programmes his Department has in place to assist young carers under the age of 18 years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4663/06]

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 41: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs his views on the recommendations of the NESF report Care for Older People for which his Department has responsibility and in particular the recommendation of a broad-based group to develop a national strategy for carers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4698/06]

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 46: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the financial supports in place to help carers who are under 18 years of age; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4657/06]

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 49: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he has held discussions with the Department of Health and Children on the development of a national strategy for carers as recommended by the National Economic and Social Forum report Care for Older People, 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4665/06]

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 68: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the services and supports, financial and otherwise, his Department provides for young carers in the 15 to 17 year age group, in particular those who have left formal education to take up full-time care duties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4662/06]

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 72: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, further to discussions with the Department of Health and Children and the development of a national strategy for carers, if he expects to have the strategy operational within the next 12 months as recommended by the NESF report No. 32; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4664/06]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 138: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs his plans to extend the carer's allowance to the much wider group caring for relatives thereby supporting community care as opposed to institutionalisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4906/06]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 19, 41, 46, 49, 68, 72 and 138 together.

Supporting and recognising carers in our society has been a priority of the Government since 1997. Over that period, weekly payment rates to carers have been greatly increased, qualifying conditions for carer's allowance have been significantly eased, coverage of the scheme has been extended and new schemes such as carer's benefit and the respite care grant have been introduced and extended.

I have examined closely the Joint Committee's Report on the Position of Full-Time Carers, which was published in November 2003. This valuable report makes a range of recommendations, many of which relate to my Department and a number of which concern the Department of Health and Children. In response to the committee, which stated that the greatest need identified by family carers is the need for a break from caring, I made provision to improve and extend the respite care grant as follows. Provision was made in 2005 for the extension of the grant to all carers who are providing full-time care to a person who needs such care regardless of his or her means. The grant is now being paid in respect of each person receiving care. Most recently in budget 2006, provision was made to increase the amount of the respite care grant from €1,000 to €1,200 from June 2006. To date, over 34,000 respite care grants have been paid by my Department and applications for the grant continue to be received.

The committee's report also recommends the development of a national strategy for family carers, as does the recently published report of the National Economic and Social Forum entitled Care for Older People. The Carers Association published a strategy document entitled Towards a Family Carer's Strategy. This is a focused document with clear objectives and actions covering a range of areas and Departments.

The issues raised in the NESF report and in the carers association's strategy were included in the deliberations of the long-term care working group. The report of this working group is being considered by the Government. However, work has already commenced in implementing the recommendations of this report with the announcement in the budget for 2006 by the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children of €150 million in funding for 2006-07 for home support packages and other community-based services.

The report also influenced the social welfare budget package in which I announced significant improvements in supports for carers. These include the largest ever increases in the rates of payment to carers. The rate of carer's allowance increased by €26.40 to €180 per week for a carer under 66 and the rate for carers over age 66 increased by €30.20 to €200 per week, making it the largest single welfare support payment in the State. The rate of carer's benefit increased by €17 to €180.70 per week. These represent increases of more than 17% for recipients of carer's allowance and serve to acknowledge and support the invaluable work of our family carers.

In addition, from June this year, I am increasing the number of hours a carer may work and still receive a carer's allowance, carer's benefit or respite care grant from ten to 15 hours per week. I am also extending the duration of the carer's benefit scheme from 15 months to two years. The duration of the associated carer's leave scheme will also be extended to two years.

In line with the Government commitment to expanding the income limits for the carer's allowance so that all those on average industrial incomes can qualify, I am increasing the weekly income disregards to €290 for a single person and to €580 for a couple from next April. This means that a couple with two children can earn up to €32,925 and receive the maximum rate of carer's allowance while the same couple can earn up to €54,400 and receive the minimum rate of carer's allowance, free travel, the household benefits package of free schemes and the respite care grant.

Carer's allowance is payable from the age of 18. I recognise that special help, advice and support is essential for young carers who care for a parent and, in particular, that services must be put in place to support the household and ensure young carers remain at school. These include the services of home helps, public health nurses and home care packages generally, which are a matter for my colleague, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. There was a significant increase in the funding for these services in the recent budget.

I am always prepared to consider changes to existing arrangements where these are for the benefit of recipients and financially sustainable within the resources available to me. I will continue to review the issues raised by the Oireachtas joint committee and other bodies representing carers and I will continue to strive to bring forward, in as tangible a way as I can, proposals that recognise the valued and valuable contribution which carers make to the country.

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for his reply and I acknowledge that he has made some movement on the report on carers by the Oireachtas joint committee. However, this is like a chicken in a trough, picking up an odd piece of oats, or like taking any crumbs that fall from the rich man's table.

Carers save the State €2 billion. That is incontrovertible. Nevertheless we claim credit for throwing them an extra €25 or €30. That is pickings from the rich man's table. It is time we implemented the carers' strategy. The Minister's predecessor ruled it out, but we have seen a few caring bones in the current Minister. It is time he accepted the carers' needs assessment Bill which we brought to this House.

We talk of crossing the Border and of equality of treatment, but if the Bill is good enough to put on a statutory basis in Northern Ireland, why is it not good enough for this State where 150,000 carers work on the cheap for the minimum wage? That is what we give them. We treat them with disdain and do not give them the recognition their work deserves. We underestimate the physical and emotional demands of caring for a relative or friend who is ill or disabled. We hear all about this on radio programmes at our clinics.

The Minister has made some advances but it is time to do more, to do what the Labour Party has demanded: abolish the means test, simplify the system, acknowledge the role of carers in this society, and acknowledge that they each save the State €600 or €700 per week by caring very well for people in their homes. The Minister must acknowledge that people want to stay in their home environment where possible. Let us give €200 to anyone who is at home looking after such people.

We have identified those caring for 15 hours per week or more. The Minister has set the parameters for the respite care grant. He has laid the foundation. Now, it is simple to identify the people giving that number of hours. Now is the time to tell them that society has hitherto let them down, to ask them to forgive us our trespasses and failings, and to promise them some small share in the wealth of this country.

I am sure some of the frequenters of the Galway races tent would like to salve their consciences by ensuring those who are less well off, who spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year except for a little respite care, which is minimal, have access to their drippings of wealth to care for people who have saved this country many billions. Meanwhile, many other people flee this country to save money and tax while carers are at home, saving the country many billions. It is time we recognised them.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The cost of removing the means test for carers' allowances stands at €140 million.

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Chickenfeed. The Minister should go for broke. He will be a hero.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I tried that before and it did not work.

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Shame on the Taoiseach if he were to remove the Minister for taking that action.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is an interesting debate which I do not mind having on the floor of the House, and I have an open mind. This year, by means of the budget, I am spending €53 million on carers. Arguably, I could have said I would not spend that money on carers and remove the means test instead. However, that would have meant people on very high incomes being entitled to carers' allowances. That may be justified from the point of view of keeping people out of nursing homes, and that is a debate we should perhaps have in the House or at a meeting of the joint committee.

Is it better for me to do what I did with the €53 million in the recent budget — raise the carer's allowance by €30 to €200, the highest of all welfare allowances? Am I to increase the respite care grant, which is not means-tested and is received by more than 34,000, to €1,200 and increase the disregard, which would benefit people on substantial incomes by allowing for an income of up to €58,000 to be disregarded? Are we better off investing the funds in that way — increasing the payments and disregards — or to sweep aside the means test and pay the grant willy-nilly to everyone, irrespective of income?

So far I have taken the view that fairly dramatically increasing the disregards, taking an increasing number of people into the net and allowing people to earn more money before we refuse them the carer's allowance represents the better way forward. It is worth noting that a mere four years ago, the expenditure in this area was €99 million and is now €220 million. Accordingly, there is a substantial investment by the taxpayer, with 25,000 people receiving the allowance. I have an open mind on removing the means test. The issue for me is one of fairness and equity, whether it is a decent thing to remove a means test and pay taxpayers' money to people on very high incomes who do not need it and can make other arrangements.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As with the children's allowance.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes, that is how the child benefit operates. I am interested to see the argument for removing the means test should come from the Labour Party benches. It would normally come from other quarters. I have an open mind about it. The question for me on the €140 million is whether to target it and increase the amount of money for the disregards and respite care down the line or spread it thinly across everybody. That is a debate to which I will listen this year in the course of preparing for next year's budget.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will all be interested in getting involved in the debate. I will ask the Minister to focus on young carers, to whom he alluded very briefly in his response. Does he agree with research carried out by Barnardos in 2004 stating that there are up to 3,000 young carers caring for various degrees of time, some as much as 14 hours per week, but more than 200 carers caring on a full-time basis? Does he agree that this can affect the young person's future prospects and lead to feelings of sadness and isolation, and create difficulties in making friends, for example?

Does the Minister know of or intend to commission research into this area and the impact of caring on young carers' lives? Has any research been carried out by the Government into this area? Is he aware of research carried out by Dearden and Becker in 2002, which stated: "Where support services and family income are adequate, children will not usually adopt a caring role"? Does the Minister agree that this is a significant problem for many families, young people and children and that it has, until now, been largely ignored by the Government?

Is it true that carers who are younger than 18 years of age are not eligible to receive carers allowance? They would not have made enough PRSI payments to receive carers benefit. As an interim measure, will the Minister examine the prospect of reducing the age restriction for carers allowance to allow some of these carers to get something for their work? Does he agree this hidden problem needs urgent attention and that it is not enough to just talk about giving help and advice without giving major support? What help and advice are they getting? Until now, it appears that they have not got very much.

Is the Minister aware that young carers are losing out on education in many instances? They cannot go to school or, if they can, they are worried about the persons at home who need care and who they are leaving behind. They must take time off from school, leave early and so on. Up to 3,000 people are involved to some degree, a possible 200 full time and 300 for almost half of their time.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Barnardos for its research in this area. I agree with the Deputy that we must examine this matter closely. Carer's allowance is not paid to anyone under the age of 18 years. As the Deputy stated, a couple of hundred people are involved full time. I would not quibble with that figure as it sounds about right. I do not know whether there are 3,000 part-time young carers but I have asked my Department to examine Barnardos research and determine whether we can reach a meeting of minds.

We must consider another issue. The carers allowance could be extended to 16 year olds. With just a few hundred people in question, it would not be very expensive, but the Deputy will agree it is probably not the answer.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is right.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Our 15, 16 and 17 year olds should not need to be full-time carers. The challenge is to get them out of those positions. On balance, I would be against paying carer's allowance to people under 18 years of age. We should try to focus on solving their problems through the HSE, education service, my Department's service and so on. We should try to bring all the State's services to bear so that a 16 or 17 year old does not need to be a carer.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If it is the case that the person absolutely must be a carer, we must examine what type of income support we can manage but I do not want to put an incentive in place, as it were, to encourage that number to grow. I share the awareness of this fairly substantial societal issue with the Deputy and have asked the Department to examine it.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When will we see action in this area? This report was published in 2004. We have had several discussions on this matter in committees, including last year with the Minister, but I have yet to see action.

It is a serious matter for the young people involved and I welcome the Minister's acknowledgement of that seriousness. The Minister should give himself a target, a benchmark for action from the Department. Will the Minister raise this matter at the Cabinet as one that must be examined? It is wrong for young people of that age to be forced to care for elderly relatives, parents and siblings in some instances. Action is needed urgently.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will press on with the issue as quickly as I can. The Deputy and Barnardos have highlighted it, but the answer is not simple. I am not in favour of paying carer's allowance to these people.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is only a stopgap.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree. The issue, therefore, is determining how to ensure that they get to school and the persons they are forced to care for are cared for in some other way.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is more important.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We could care for them by putting them in residential care or organising home help for them. It is a joined-up Government issue and I will put some pressure on.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In respect of the carers issues raised in Questions Nos. 16 and 19, does the Minister agree that we must seriously value the carers in our society and be more supportive of them? I accept that we have moved in the right direction in recent years but the reality on the ground for many people is that there are still major problems. Does the Minister accept this reality? The Minister mentioned €220 million in support packages but we must acknowledge that this has saved the Exchequer approximately €2 billion.

We need a debate on the nursing homes issue as most elderly and disabled people do not want to find themselves in that situation. From talking to many different groups of elderly and disabled people, the preferred option is to live at home. Will the Minister examine the prospect of putting more supports in the home?

We must wake up to the reality that many young carers are in difficult situations. It is difficult and stressful work and these young people are not allowed to live out their childhoods. We must support them. The figure may be as low as 200 to 300 full-time carers. I accept the Minister's point that he does not want to pull these people out of the education system but we must target supports for them and the other 3,000 young people directly involved in caring. Will the Minister make these issues priorities when he goes to the Cabinet?

Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to raise two issues with the Minister. First, we were talking about young carers but a large number of people caring for others are spouses and are themselves elderly. What provisions has the Minister in mind in respect of caring for the carers? Who cares for the carers? Many carers who have precarious health problems need support.

Second, I wish to address the community and voluntary aspects of carers. My feeling is that communities and voluntary groups in communities have carried out and are carrying out important work to support and alleviate the problems of older people. In other countries there are more local levels of distribution of funds and supports. I am involved with community supports. Would the Minister be in favour of giving more power to communities and voluntary organisations within them to provide these supports rather than their coming from on high? Community groups probably have more cognisance and would be better apprised of supporting people at home, thereby keeping them out of institutions and away from expensive hospital services.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath that there are still problems in respect of carers and the distance to be travelled. We have managed to make substantial improvements but I intend to keep up that pressure. I acknowledge that carers save the taxpayer funds, which is one of the reasons carer's allowance was started in the first place, namely, to encourage people to be cared for at home to keep the pressure off the formal system. Apart from this, research has shown that it is better for the individual.

The Deputy asked about long-term care issues, on which the Tánaiste recently spoke and announced a number of initiatives. She and I are working together on a group dealing with long-term care with the clear objective of leaving as many people at home as possible, expanding home care programmes and trying to augment them so people do not need to go into institutions. That is the way forward and she and I are working on that. I note what the Deputy said about young carers and I replied to that point earlier in response to Deputy Stanton.

Deputy Cowley asked who cares for the carers. I met the Carers Association some time ago. It pointed out that a strategy for carers is needed and I accept this and will have further discussions with the group on that. Allowances are supposed to be income support rather than remuneration for carers, who have much stress and pressure. If we are to develop the carers system we must find ways to give the carer a break, not just through respite care breaks but by developing the carer's professionalism and the carer support system. The better the carer is, the better the care given to the person who needs it. I accept we must continue to make improvements in that area.

The Deputy's final point referred to community and voluntary groups and it will never be a case of choosing between these groups and the State. There is a clear role for the State through its health and welfare service and there is a case for community and voluntary groups to lead reform where it is needed. Many reforms in this House have come from proposals and suggestions of community and voluntary groups. Many of the improvements to the welfare system referred to today are a direct result of representations, research and campaigning by voluntary and community groups. These groups, dealing with people every day, are able to raise the matter and it is often resolved at a formal level in this House. Formal State services and community and voluntary services must co-exist because one needs the other.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I know of a family in my constituency where the husband is in a wheelchair in need of care, whose wife has tried to commit suicide twice. I would have thought various resources would be made available to support the family but this did not happen for various reasons. The Minister refers to costs but we have a successful economy. Who is the economy for, if not for people such as the person to whom I referred and other carers? The Minister referred to a debate but most carers are sick and tired of debate and wish to see action. The Minister claims action has been taken but the gap still exists for many of these families. If we are having a debate, let us address the question of who the economy is for, if not for people such as this. We should spend money on these types of families.

Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 7: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he will extend free travel to older Irish emigrants, at the very least to Irish pensioners living in the UK, when they return here on their holidays; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39320/05]

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 17: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if a decision has been made in regard to a request that free travel facilities within this country be extended to Irish people living abroad for the period when they visit here; his views on granting this concession to such persons who are in receipt of the Department of Social and Family Affairs old age pensions. [4724/06]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 17 together.

The free travel scheme is available to all people living in the State aged 66 years or over. All carers in receipt of carer's allowance and carers of people in receipt of constant attendance or prescribed relative's allowance, regardless of their age, receive a free travel pass. It is also available to people under age 66 who are in receipt of certain disability welfare payments, such as disability allowance, invalidity pension and blind person's pension.

People in receipt of a social security invalidity or disability payment from a country covered by EU regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement, and who have been on this payment for at least 12 months, are also eligible for free travel.

The scheme provides free travel on the main public and private transport services for those eligible under the scheme. These include road, rail and ferry services provided by companies such as Bus Átha Cliath, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, as well as Luas and services provided by more than 80 private transport operators. The free travel scheme applies to travel within the State and cross-Border journeys between here and Northern Ireland.

There have been a number of requests and inquiries about the extension of entitlement to free travel to Irish born people living outside Ireland, or to those in receipt of pensions from my Department, particularly in the UK. The legal advice available to me is that such proposals would be contrary to the EC treaty, which prohibits discrimination on the grounds of nationality. However, I am continuing to examine all aspects of a possible scheme as recognition of the contribution of emigrants to the growth of this country is a priority of the Government.

Significant improvements have been made to the free schemes, including the free travel scheme, in recent budgets in terms of the qualifying conditions and the coverage of the schemes. I will continue to review the operation of these schemes with a view to identifying scope for further improvements as resources permit.

Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for his reply. I challenge him to try harder to ensure free travel for our emigrants when they come home to Ireland, particularly on holidays. I am disappointed it has not happened to date though I do not doubt the sincerity of the Minister's belief that this should happen. The Minister cannot use economic arguments as these people are economic migrants who gave €3.5 billion to Ireland when we had nothing, helping us in our darkest hour.

This issue is of fundamental importance to our emigrants as it is symbolic. The task force on emigrants highlighted this issue as something near and dear to their hearts. Emigrants returning to Ireland on holidays feel they are lesser citizens because they do not have free travel. The Minister's reply in December 2005 stated that free schemes had been extended but emigrants on holidays were precluded on the grounds that it would be discriminatory to other EU citizens. I told the Minister he should examine this again as there is a common area of travel between Ireland and the United Kingdom that has existed and been recognised since before we were members of the EU.

The Minister stated he would take my advice on board and would continue to examine any available options. Has the Minister any news? There is a limited timespan as these people will not live forever. They have done much for us but we have forgotten them and we now have an opportunity to do something for them. Will the Minister use the window of opportunity?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I acknowledge the work Deputy Cowley does in this area and I have had many meetings with emigrant groups in the United Kingdom in the past year. Deputy Stagg has also raised this matter in the House and elsewhere. I want to extend free travel to those living in the United Kingdom in receipt of Irish pensions. Some 45,000 people in the UK receive pensions from my Department. I am strongly advised, in the starkest terms, by the Government's legal services and the Attorney General that it is not possible to extend free travel to those living in the United Kingdom without extending it to all EU citizens. I would have to extend the scheme to people in France, Spain and other states.

I have prioritised North-South travel and am making progress on that following a number of meetings with the authorities in Northern Ireland. Currently, our pensioners can travel in Northern Ireland for free and I wish to deal with this issue within a couple of months. The issue of those living in the United Kingdom is more problematic but I have not given up on this. I have requested further legal advice and raised further legal questions to see if I can make progress. This is not a financial issue but purely a legal issue. I would welcome any thoughts Deputy Cowley has on this matter.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister's answer was mostly waffle. We did not ask him to outline the entire scheme, which we know very well. The Minister promised he would do his best to introduce this scheme but I feel let down, disappointed and ashamed by the lack of effort. I am determined to get the Minister to reverse his position. His advice is wrong, I advise him to ignore it, and I say this advisedly.

Is the Minister aware that in this week's Irish Post the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the United Kingdom, Mr. Brown, announced that he will introduce free travel for Irish pensioners visiting England, and that his advice is different to that which the Minister received? His officials take a different view of the European legislation from the Minister's officials. I state now, as I stated before, that the Minister's advice is wrong.

Is the Minister aware that Chancellor Brown is also keen to see a reciprocal arrangement between the two countries, despite, as his officials put it, the opposition of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan? Money is not an issue, as €150,000 is one twelfth of the total annual cost of the 24,876 Irish pensioners abroad in the first instance, and perhaps only one tenth of them might visit Ireland. It would only cost €15,000 for a full year if that number visited, which is unlikely.

The issue is simply the legality. The British authorities have now established to their satisfaction that there is no problem. They are gazumping the Minister by introducing free travel rights for all 600,000 or 800,000 Irish pensioners who may travel to England and avail of free travel. If they can do it, surely the Minister can do so also.

The Minister must stop hiding behind legalese and advice from legal experts. I ask him to make a decision. He should not seek any more advice. He is the Minister and he should make a decision to introduce this scheme for Irish people who would normally be entitled to free travel if they were living in Ireland and who visit Ireland on holiday.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am of the view, and I am legally advised, that Chancellor Brown will not be able to introduce a scheme to allow Irish people have free travel in the UK and not extend it to those from France, Greece, Spain and the other EU member states. While the Irish Post might state it, Chancellor Brown will not be able to introduce the measure on the basis outlined by Deputy Stagg. Chancellor Brown will not be able to give Irish people free travel and make French people pay. That is the strongest advice given to me.

I know the Deputy long enough. It is naive to suggest that any Minister can introduce legislation and ignore the legal advice available to the Government. It is not doubtful advice; it is advice in the starkest possible terms. I have not given up on free travel. Deputy Stagg's comment that I am in some way opposing it is wrong. I am a champion of this. I advocate and support it. It is not a financial or political issue. We must resolve the legal issue. I will continue to seek ways of doing so.

One option I recently examined was introducing legislation to attach the free travel to the Irish pension, thereby automatically providing it to those in receipt of Irish pensions in the UK. It would not be discrimination because only our pensioners would receive it. I will continue to examine whether that is an option, although it will be difficult. I await the outcome of Chancellor Brown's efforts. I will inquire further into the scheme referred to by Deputy Stagg. I wish Chancellor Brown luck. I will be right behind him if he gets it through.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has considered many items today on the basis of advice from the Opposition. If he cannot get around the difficulties he outlined, will he consider introducing free travel for all pensioners who visit Ireland? Perhaps it would be a great tourist attraction. It might be a good investment from the State's point of view to give such free travel at off-peak times. I do not know what the cost would be. If it works out at €74 per year, that divided by 12 is a small amount. I am sure anyone coming to Ireland would spend much more than that and leave a great deal of money in the country.

I do not expect a great flood of French, German, Latvian or Polish pensioners because they can get free travel on buses throughout the country at off-peak times. It is not an issue. Perhaps if the Minister cannot get over it in one way, he can get over it in another.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I hope we have enough buses.

Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister stated the legal advice he received is that if free travel is given to one section of EU citizens, it must be given to all. The Minister stated a concession can be made for Northern Ireland to allow old age pensioners to travel to and from both jurisdictions, albeit a limited concession. Surely there is a precedent for extending that to the Irish pensioners living in the UK. Northern Ireland is considered part of the UK. What is the difference? If it is allowed for Northern Irish citizens and vice versa, why is it not allowed between here and the UK? It does not make sense.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The regulations allow certain exemptions regarding cross-border and interterritorial travel to be applied if a land mass is contiguous, as Northern Ireland is to us. However, it is an aside. It is not the main issue. All I can state is that I will continue to examine this. I have not given up on it. However, I must be straight with the House. That is the position at the moment. I will certainly examine Chancellor Brown's proposal.