Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 35: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs the steps he has taken to ensure no Irish facility has been used for the covert transfer of detainees or prisoners; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39434/05]

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Question 36: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs the Government's view on whether the concept of extraordinary rendition is an acceptable and lawful tool of implementation for the international campaign against terrorism. [39340/05]

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Question 37: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs his views on the assurances given to the Government by the US Administration regarding extraordinary renditions of prisoners and possible involvement of Irish airports in the transit of these prisoners; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39681/05]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 35 to 37, inclusive, together.

The Government is completely opposed to the practice of so-called "extraordinary rendition", whereby prisoners are transported from one jurisdiction to another contrary to international law and without recourse to the normal judicial checks and balances that attend the legitimate transfer of prisoners. That such a practice might have the aim of delivering a prisoner to a jurisdiction in which he or she might be tortured, or otherwise ill-treated, is disturbing and objectionable. The Government has not and will not permit any flight engaged in extraordinary rendition to pass through an Irish airport or through Irish or Irish-controlled airspace.

Deputies will be aware from my replies to previous parliamentary questions on this subject, most recently Parliamentary Question No. 151 of 8 December 2005, the United States has given Ireland repeated, clear and explicit assurances that no prisoners have been transferred through Irish airports, nor would they be, without our permission. These assurances were confirmed by the US Secretary of State, Ms Rice, at our meeting on 1 December. Suggestions have been made that these assurances may be qualified in some way by the definition of torture as applied by the US Government. The assurances we have received have contained no reference to the purposes for which any prisoners might be transferred which could be used to limit the broad scope of those assurances. In the wider European context, they are of particular clarity and completeness.

I have no reason to believe Irish airports have been used in the manner described by the Deputies. None of the allegations made about the passage through Irish airports of aeroplanes, supposedly involved in extraordinary rendition, has included any concrete or specific claim of this type.

In light of the absolute assurances received, the Government will continue to follow the long-standing practice whereby details supplied to the Department of Foreign Affairs in this area by the US authorities are accepted in good faith as being accurate. Should it ever emerge that, contrary to our firm belief, our airports or airspace have been used for the purpose of extraordinary rendition, the Government would take the gravest possible view of the matter.

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister agree there is serious disquiet, not only in Ireland, but in the EU, at the possibility of the existence of Guantanamo Bay type detention centres within the European Union? The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has also expressed its concerns; so much so, is the Minister aware it has invited the US ambassador to come before it? I ask the Minister to use his good offices with the ambassador to get an agreement from him to appear before the committee to provide some explanations.

If detention centres exist in the European Union, then they are in violation of the principles of the European Convention on Human Rights. Under Articles 6 and 7 of the Nice Treaty, member states housing such detention centres could have their voting rights within the Union withdrawn. Will the Minister make Ireland's views on this known to his EU counterparts?

Ms Rice, on her recent visit to Europe, said that some European countries had enjoyed the services of US intelligence agencies arising from US dealings with prisoners from Iraq. Has Ireland enjoyed these services in security and the prevention of terrorism matters?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As Minister for Foreign Affairs, I would not normally be aware of any matters relating to the last question. Ms Rice, in her discussions with me, made it clear that intelligence agencies across the world share information in the fight against terrorism. The US and other states expect that co-operation.

This question relates to flights while another relates to detention centres in Europe. The Government shares the concerns of the wider public in this regard. It is as a result of both the Ireland and Finland raising the issue at a recent EU meeting that Mr. Jack Straw, wrote on behalf of the EU to the US in advance of Ms Rice's visit to Europe. The issues of centres, so-called "black sites" and rendition and that European soil would not be used by the US for such purposes was raised at this level.

It is entirely a matter for the US ambassador to decide whether he should attend the committee. I had discussions with the ambassador before I travelled to the US to meet Ms Rice. I have had many other discussions with him and his officials previously on these issues.

Ireland was one of the first states, if not the very first, to raise the issue of extraordinary rendition when we became aware of it in the media. We decided to do this to assure ourselves and the public that this was not happening on our soil or in our airspace. Categoric assurances, without qualification, on the issue of extraordinary rendition and on torture have been given, which were confirmed by the US Secretary of State, Ms Rice, on my recent visit to the States. I raise the issue at every available fora. The EU undertook to raise the matter formally with the US as a result of Ireland and Finland raising the matter at EU level.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The aeroplane in question is a Gulfstream V, registered N8068V, and also registered under two separate enumerations, N379P and N44982, of which the Minister is aware. This 'plane landed at Shannon Airport several times. It has been proved to be involved in, what has been admitted by the US Secretary of State, Ms Rice, as an abduction by mistake, extraordinary rendition if one likes, of Khaled el-Masri. He is now taking a case in the US Federal Courts concerning his illegal and improper abduction. If the aeroplane was not involved in rendition, then is it not the action of a friendly country to explain what it was doing in Shannon Airport on the several occasions it landed?

On the Minister's comments on secret interrogations taking place, the Polish Government has changed its position and is holding an official inquiry into the possible presence of such interrogation systems within its jurisdiction. It is important to place on the record that when the Minister receives an assurance on torture, there is a real difficulty——

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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No. I received an assurance on rendition, on any account and unqualified.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister's statement on the Government's position on rendition. The UN Convention Against Torture defines it as severe physical or mental pain or suffering and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. However, after the attacks of September 2001 the Justice Department in the United States narrowed the definition of torture to the infliction of pain comparable to "organ failure, impairment of bodily function or even death". This is a fundamental change in the definition. While the debate on whether the McCain Bill in the United States will be fully implemented is for another day, an assurance must cover the full scope of the United Nations convention.

This issue rolls back on to the question of rendition. Regarding the assurance the Minister obtained, is he satisfied the Government is in compliance with three levels of convention, namely, the United Nations Convention against Torture, the Council of Europe's convention on torture and the European Union's statements on the matter, to which the Minister referred? Is he confident about the assurance he received given the absence of inspections and the fact that the story has changed radically on several occasions? Members of the public seek random, regular inspections of the flights in question to ensure compliance with something stronger than the simple assurance the Minister secured.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy cites a number of conventions. The European Court of Human Rights has determined that there must be substantial proof of a real risk of a breach of rights protected by the European Convention on Human Rights. To date, despite media speculation, we have no substantial grounds in that respect. I do not rely only on the assurances I received but also on other sources, including Human Rights Watch which recently indicated it would be unlikely for the flights in question to pass through major civilian airports. In its submission, that organisation referred to a number of airports but not Shannon Airport.

I answered questions in the House on suggestions made in the media that Martin Scheinin, the United Nations rapporteur on human rights, had received reports or complaints. When officials from my Department contacted his office, they were informed Professor Scheinin had not received complaints and the only contact made with his office from Ireland had been from journalists inquiring whether he had received complaints. Professor Scheinin was in Ireland just last week and did not provide any information regarding an investigation by him.

I cite comments made by Dr. Tom Clonan, an expert on defence matters who frequently appears on RTE, during a recent interview on "Today with Pat Kenny". Referring to his visit to Guantanamo Bay, Dr. Clonan indicated that he had asked, off the record, whether any new detainees had arrived in Guantanamo and if they had travelled through Shannon Airport. He stated: "To be honest with you the informal, off-the-record view, in so much as I can accept it, is that the CIA would not actually use Shannon for the transit of cargo". He added that the CIA would be more likely to use secure military bases.

I reiterate my central point that it is long-standing practice to accept categoric, unqualified assurances of a friendly government, irrespective in this case of what was said subsequently during Condoleezza Rice's visit to Europe. Ms Rice stated that torture is torture no matter where it is committed and there are not two standards of torture as far as the US Administration is concerned.

Another parliamentary question submitted to me concerns undocumented Irish people in the United States, an issue which exercises most Deputies. I must negotiate with President Bush, Condoleezza Rice and all the leading Congressmen and politicians in the United States on this issue. Will I negotiate with them on this or any other issue relevant to US-Irish relations while, at the same time, indicating that we regard the assurances given by the US Government on Shannon Airport as misleading? It beggars belief that we would go behind the back of the US when we have a special relationship with it which we want to continue.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Without wishing to confuse the issue, Senator McCain, who is involved in helping undocumented Irish people in the United States, suffered torture and is anxious to ensure it is never practised at home or abroad on behalf of the United States. I put it to the Minister that the aeroplane which abducted Khalid al-Masri flew from Kabul to Shannon Airport on 17 December 2003 and from Shannon to Kabul on 13 August 2004.

Complaints have been registered in Shannon Airport. Is it not the case that the Director of Public Prosecutions has indicated that he will define Garda actions with regard to any suggestions about improper use of flights through Shannon? Is this not a factor?

On the issue of negotiating with the United States, while I accept the US is a friendly nation, what is wrong with random inspections if it has nothing to hide? It is not correct that this is a long-standing practice. The civilian aircraft involved are leased under commercial contract but are in fact leased by the CIA. There is no precedent for rendition practised through such aeroplanes and flights.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The information available to me indicates that such CIA flights have been taking place for a long time, certainly the past 50 years during which various political parties have been in Government here. Having received categoric assurances which a number of other European countries have been unable to secure on this issue, we cannot go behind them. If we were to do so, it would be regarded as unfriendly. I accept there is public disquiet on this matter but the Government has made clear its position. If evidence is found, it will be a matter for the Garda Síochána and the Director of Public Prosecutions. The Government cannot order the Garda Síochána to investigate.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It is also a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister cannot order investigations which are entirely a matter for the DPP and the Garda.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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What would be the position if the DPP were to be found to be obstructing an investigation?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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While I share the concerns of citizens on this matter, I repeat the central point that unless and until there are substantial grounds as defined by the European Court of Human Rights, no investigation can take place.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Before I call Deputy Boyle, I should point out that on Question No. 37, Deputy Gormley, who submitted it, gave prior notice of his absence to the Office of the Ceann Comhairle and asked that Deputy Boyle substitute for him. As prior notice has been given, I call Deputy Boyle.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Deputy Gormley is indisposed. The Minister appears to have gone further today in his acceptance of US denials on the practice of rendition. Previously he stated publicly that a statement by the United States Government that rendition is not taking place would be sufficient. He appears also to have indicated that the US Government's definition of torture —"torture is torture is torture"— is acceptable to him. It has already been documented that the prisoners held without status in Guantanamo Bay are subject to isolation, deprivation and hooding, practices not regarded under any common definition of human rights as anything other than torture. If the Minister's definition coincides with that of the US Administration, the Government is in a difficult moral position.

I will go further. Does the Minister believe that the current US Administration has not at any time misled or given false information to the Government? During the current conflict in Iraq the US Government has been seen to do nothing but mislead the entire world on its objectives.

On the specific questions on the transit of particular aeroplanes associated with the practice of rendition which have been readily identified in airports throughout the world, will the Minister comment specifically on reports in the Swedish press concerning the abduction of two Egyptian citizens, Ahmed Agiza and Muhammed Al Zery, on an aeroplane bearing the number N379P, subsequently identified as having stopped in Shannon Airport? Did the Minister and his Department become aware of these reports in Sweden? Did they make contact with the Swedish Government? Did the Minister discover whether any definition of flight paths coincided with Sweden and Ireland on that day?

Can the Minister explain why, of the 50 flights that have been identified by the Federal Aviation Authority in the United States as having arrived in Shannon, only 35 are recorded as having left? Does that mean there was a practice of secret flights coming in and out of Shannon? Is the Government aware of this and is it colluding in the practice of secret flights using Shannon? Is the Minister aware of the action being taken by the secretary general of the Council of Europe in invoking Article 52 of the council's human rights charter for only the eighth time in its history to investigate these allegations in several European countries?

Why is it that the Minister continues to believe that somehow Ireland is different and indifferent to what is happening in this situation? The opinion of New York University's college of law would seem to indicate that foreknowledge of——

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Yes.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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——and reluctance to become involved in asking questions and making inspections of flights puts this country in danger of being seen to collude in the practice of rendition because of our willingness to accept on face value the words of people and administrations that have shown themselves not to be credible on any of these issues.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On the last point, New York University prepared a study for the House of Commons which made quite clear that actual knowledge would be part of a state's assisting the issue of rendition. This State has no knowledge of these activities.

The Deputy referred to a so-called discrepancy. Yesterday, the Minister for Transport answered a question from Deputy Gormley about the particular planes that were identified as having passed through Shannon, stating that 43 of them had landed and 43 had taken off. Therefore there was no discrepancy in that regard. These are civilian aircraft out of approximately 9,000 civilian aircraft that landed in Shannon during that period.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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These are American statistics from the Federal Aviation Authority in Washington.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We are running out of time for this question.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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They are called pressure flights.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We can only relate to the statistics that we have for Shannon which were provided in the parliamentary question yesterday.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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Basically, we know what we want to know.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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What was the other issue the Deputy asked about?

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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I asked specifically about what has been reported in the Swedish media concerning the abduction of two Egyptian citizens and the flight number of a plane that was identified as having landed in Shannon. What efforts have been made by the Government to contact the Swedish Government about these reports?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At EU level generally we have raised the issue of abducting people and we have made it quite clear that we have not accepted it and do not or will not accept it. We will investigate any hard evidence that is brought to us, but to date no such evidence has been brought to us concerning the use of Shannon in any shape or form.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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What about the flight numbers?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Unless and until that hard evidence is brought to us, we cannot investigate it. The Government is adamant that if it does get that hard evidence, it will be investigated and we will take serious action on foot of it.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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The third question was about the Council of Europe.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We have answered the question from the Council of Europe and we will co-operate fully with any investigation. We will answer the questionnaire that has been submitted. It will be done on the previously stated basis.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I will allow a brief supplementary.

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister made it clear to his EU colleagues that if secret detention centres are detected within the European Union, Articles 6 and 7 of the Nice treaty will be invoked, and that any country hosting such detention centres will have their voting rights withdrawn?

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Suspended.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to cross that bridge when we come to it, but if there are black sites on EU soil, obviously the EU would have to consider seriously what action to take. We would be one of the first member states to raise this issue if there were proof of such sites.