Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the November 2005 meeting of the cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public-private partnerships; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36484/05]

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the issues discussed at the November 2005 cross-departmental team on infrastructure and public-private partnerships; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37990/05]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent meeting of the cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and public-private partnerships; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38705/05]

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.

The discussion at the November meeting of the cross-departmental team on housing, infrastructure and public-private partnerships focused on Transport 21, the national spatial strategy gateways study and climate change strategy. The team's discussion on Transport 21 focused mainly on implementation, including the arrangements for the national monitoring committee. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government made a presentation setting out the progress on the national spatial strategy gateways study. It also gave an overview presentation on the forthcoming developments relating to climate change strategy, including the associated linkages with other policy areas.

At its previous meeting on Thursday, 1 December, the team discussed housing and affordable housing and reviewed progress on Transport 21. The team continues to monitor progress and review priorities on infrastructure planning and delivery. This includes examining options to secure better value for money outcomes and assessing the scope for speedier delivery of outputs.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was reading a report the other evening about pike roads in 1787 in Dublin where a shilling and eightpence was charged for horses to travel on them. These were the original toll roads. Did the interdepartmental committee consider the question of opening the tolled Kilcock-Kinnegad motorway? This major piece of infrastructure will be the only section of motorway on which there will be two tolls. If one were travelling to the airport, one would pass three tolls. Did the interdepartmental committee consider this option? Does the Taoiseach have a view on whether the toll is equitable given that no toll is charged on the route from Dublin to Wexford, Waterford, Cork or Limerick?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Detailed questions are a matter for the line Minister.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I knew the Ceann Comhairle would stop me, which is the reason I am stopping myself on this matter.

Has the interdepartmental committee on housing and PPPs considered the recently launched Transport 21 programme given that a significant part of the programme will be funded by PPPs? Will the Taoiseach comment on an issue brought to my attention recently regarding the costly and complex nature of tendering for a PPP project? Those companies which do not qualify under the tender system obviously do not get the job. If the tendering process is costly and complex, one could well find in respect of the elements of Transport 21 expected to be delivered by PPPs that a small number of well resourced companies will be eligible to tender for and win PPP projects. If the number of companies declines, this small group could well turn into a type of PPP cartel in which the members distribute jobs among themselves, thereby increasing costs.

Does the Taoiseach envisage circumstances in which, given the complexity and cost of the tendering system, companies which do not qualify will receive some form of recognition for submitting a tender or have some of the costs they incurred returned in order that they will be encouraged to continue to compete for PPP projects and to avoid the emergence of a costly, well resourced cartel capable of distributing these contracts among its members?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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To return to an earlier question, the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, checked a detail for me and it appears subhead Q refers to the MacEntee commission. For some reason, this small provision must have been called "commission of investigation" before the other subhead was inserted. It is, however, the same subhead.

On the M50, the committee has been discussing the detail of the enhancement work on the M50. As the Deputy knows, an examination is taking place of what can be done about more modern tolling and is looking, in particular, to the Hong Kong model of tolling rather than barrier tolling. The committee has not come to a conclusion on the matter.

We will have a number of tolls, including a toll road in Cork, in the not too distant future. It is inevitable, as happens elsewhere, that tolling will make a contribution to the huge amount of resources which have been spent over the past decade and will be spent over the next decade. Having looked at some of the figures given to the committee recently on tolling in other countries, the cost of tolling here is low.

On PPPs, a great deal of progress is being made. In the early years the trouble was that only a handful of mainly British-based companies considered PPP projects. Obviously, if there are not enough PPP projects, it does not justify such companies setting up offices and schemes. Since then, the National Treasury Management Agency, through a body affiliated to it, the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, has started to look at PPP projects and deals with them in a very different way. They have looked internationally at how this is done. We are increasingly finding that it is better to take PPP projects away from Departments and by operating them in a different way, we are getting much more competitive interest. There is no doubt, however, that it is costly. In some respects, it is good if there is an insufficient supply of projects because it would be ridiculous if much of our national wealth went into investment for PPPs in other countries, which cannot put it into their own countries. That is what is happening because quite a lot of the investment money is going into large infrastructural projects outside Ireland, such as roads, tunnels and bypasses.

The PPP system has the benefit of being able to get that money into our system. We should do that increasingly because it makes great sense to do so. Obviously, one cannot share out the contracts because it must be a competitive position, but it is in our interest, as the Deputy said, not to have a cartel comprising just a handful of companies. The only way of doing that is to spread it among companies that do a lot of work internationally, which is what is happening. Our capital programme for PPPs may be small in international terms, but at least they can see that there are some sizeable projects. We can see the benefits of this, including the new road which was opened the other day. I do not wish to be critical of anybody, but we know that those huge savings would not have been achieved by taking the conventional route. As the National Roads Authority becomes more efficient in using the new systems it has introduced, there will be many mechanisms through which we can obtain better value for money and part of that can be done through the PPP system.

A section of the National Development Finance Agency is working on this matter, which is part of the National Treasury Management Agency. This year the staff have done a really good job in internationalising this to bring people together and generate far more interest in projects here. We have seen that happening recently in the development project at Fatima Mansions and a few other projects will come on stream in which there is considerable private sector interest. They concern projects which I did not think would attract private sector involvement. In this case, Dublin Corporation is involved in renewal projects at a significant cost and there are huge attractions in such projects.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Will the Taoiseach revert to his reply concerning the issue of infrastructural PPPs at the interdepartmental committee? On 9 November, he said he would deal with wider energy policy issues, but does he agree that these matters are not treated seriously by the budget provisions, which seem to be sending money out of the country by way of a carbon fund? In light of that, will the Government become more seriously involved in implementing the EU energy performance of buildings directive through the interdepartmental committee? Will action on this directive be extended, given that we have a derogation of three years during which to implement it? Will the Taoiseach improve on that? Has the interdepartmental committee taken into account the reasons, which the Taoiseach mentioned, for a lack of technical ability in implementing the directive? How is the Government responding to that?

As regards sending money out of the country, will the Taoiseach state what criteria are being used to award PPP contracts? I have been asked this question a number of times. Is there a need to re-examine and refine the criteria applied to PPPs, given the vast reliance on them? Some €27 million is to be spent on 17 PPP projects, including in the education sector, the arts, the National Concert Hall and the Abbey Theatre. One quarter of funding for the ten-year €34 billion national transport strategy is to be undertaken through PPPs.

I understand that Halliburton is doing the €372 million Shannon tunnel project, which is the largest infrastructural scheme outside Dublin. Will the Taoiseach clarify if that project warrants criteria concerning past performance, given the amount of overcharging that company has had to contend with? There are also ethical issues surrounding the company's involvement in Iraq.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Detailed questions are a matter for the line Minister.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am illustrating the need for criteria to be drawn up.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should confine himself to general questions.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The interdepartmental committee would have an involvement in that, given that it has an overarching responsibility in that regard.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I can comment generally on some of the issues raised, although I do not have some of the details involved. The building control Bill is to strengthen the enforcement powers of local building authorities, as well as providing statutory protection to implement the EU directive on the energy performance of buildings. That energy element is in the Bill. As Deputy Quinn has spent most of this session asking about this, we finally cleared it yesterday so we will introduce it in the next session. The legislation deals with all the issues the Deputy raised.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The three years' derogation.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure how that will be handled. As the Deputy is aware, there have been discussions on forthcoming developments on climate change and the wider energy policy, which is the broad issue with which the interdepartmental committee has been dealing. Discussions have taken place on the first phase of emissions trading and on the carbon tax.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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What carbon tax?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Two major policy initiatives next year will help to determine our wider energy policy strategy in the medium term. The review of national climate change and the energy policy review are going on within the Department, both on the carbon credits and the EU emissions trading scheme. They are listed for discussion at the committee in the early part of the new year.

I will not go into detail on individual PPPs, but the role of the centre of expertise, which is located in the National Development Finance Agency, will be expanded to include the procurement function on behalf of Departments in addition to its existing role as adviser to Departments on PPP procurement. That strengthens the process considerably from where it was. The agency has commenced the new activity on an interim, non-statutory basis, pending the introduction of enabling legislation, which we will have in the new year. The centre will provide the skills and capacity required to support the procurement of key infrastructural projects by PPPs in the central Government area. By concentrating initially on the three key Departments — as the Deputy has mentioned, they are the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform — an improved deal flow of PPP projects will be generated and a resource focus will bring them to completion.

I do not know about the Shannon project, but 23 new post-primary schools and four new primary schools will be provided under public-private partnerships. Work has commenced on them. A number of other local government projects are also operating.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach mentioned an energy tax, but I thought the Government was not proceeding with that.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise from these questions.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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It is a major departure.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a matter for the line Minister.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the cross-departmental team examined the issue of housing in the private rented sector? Is the Taoiseach aware that the number of households in receipt of rent supplements equates to 40% of the total in private rented accommodation? Does the Taoiseach agree that clearly these are people who should be accommodated within the social housing provision? Does he accept that the State has massively subsidised the private rented sector through——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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A detailed question is more appropriate to the line Minister, but the Chair will accept a general question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Very well. Will the Taoiseach advise the cross-departmental team to address the matter I have described? As regards the 10,000 promised so-called affordable houses under Sustaining Progress, will the Taoiseach advise whether the cross-departmental team has been or is intent on doing anything to speed up the delivery of this disgracefully slow commitment?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding that general question, we recently spelled out the ongoing work on social and affordable housing. Great resources have been put into social housing. The Deputy is correct that the subsidy to the private sector in housing is extremely large.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is €370 million.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I recently said in the House and elsewhere that if one were doing this on a business project and wished to capitalise the amount being invested over time, which is what we would do were we not politicians——

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should tell his brother that.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps it should be looked at in that way, but one is attacked as soon as one mentions it. If one took that sum, how many houses would one build on a ten-year strategy of capitalising the amount? Having said that, this year we have continued in the traditional manner and put significant increases into social housing and the affordable housing initiatives. However, it is a costly way to proceed.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My question was whether they had addressed the issue of the subsidisation of 40% of all private rented accommodation.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have examined what is happening, but I do not believe that there are any innovative methods on the horizon. What is on the horizon is that we must invest more resources in social housing. That is happening, but one will never achieve the speed that one might wish. Local authorities have been hard pressed this year. Questions were asked here the other day, and they were criticised for not spending their allocations. I know the Minister was very agitated at that both last year and this year. Voluntary housing put in a large amount of money, and we received a report from Mr. Des Geraghty and his colleagues on the affordable housing initiative. The State is still paying out large sums, and it might be looked at differently. That may not be possible, but the question of fresh thinking in this area arises.