Dáil debates
Wednesday, 23 November 2005
Other Questions.
Prison Building Programme.
3:00 pm
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Question 53: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason it was necessary to purchase such a large site at Thornton Hall; his plans to develop the site further; if it is envisaged that other services will be provided at Thornton Hall; if not, if the excess land will be sold; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35719/05]
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The size of the site purchased will provide for and enable the development to be carried out in a manner which is consistent with best practice from a planning perspective. It will also facilitate the provision of an integrated prison complex with ample recreational and therapeutic facilities. In addition, in line with a recent Government decision a site will be made available for the replacement of the Central Mental Hospital but this is ultimately a matter for the Minister for Health and Children. There are no plans to dispose of any portion of the site or to provide for facilities other than those which have already been indicated.
Mountjoy Prison needs to be replaced. Conditions in Mountjoy have been severely criticised by the Council of Europe committee on the prevention of torture and other inhumane or degrading treatment. They have also been roundly condemned by the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention. Redeveloping the existing 20 acre site at Mountjoy is neither financially viable at an estimated cost of over €400 million nor practical from an operational or developmental perspective. Even if this investment was made the site would remain constrained with no scope for football fields, a running track or other rehabilitative facilities.
Building a new prison campus on a new site will open up new opportunities. The development of a greenfield site means we will have the room to develop progressive rehabilitative facilities and introduce single person cells with in-cell sanitation to end the inhumane practice of slopping out. The size of the Thornton site at 150 acres allows considerable flexibility for a campus style development with modern work practices, as well as allowing the Irish Prison Service to plan for the future taking into account the projected rise in our population. The Irish Prison Service estimates that annual savings on the costs implied by the present manning levels at Mountjoy Prison in the order of €30,000 per prisoner per annum can be generated on a new greenfield site.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I ask the Minister again why he needs 150 acres at the exorbitant price of €30 million, which is six, seven or even eight times the cost of land that is not zoned. If the land is not developed it will have to be sold on those terms. Will it be possible to build on the land, considering Fingal County Council is declaring a conservation area? The council is involved in a survey of archaeological and historical sites in the area. Will the Minister comment on that? The Grangegorman site has 65 acres, 35 being playing fields and 30 suitable for buildings. It envisages a student population of 20,000 to 30,000 with less than half the acreage of Thornton Hall. The site certainly seems large and it does not seem much of it can be built on.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Deputy has exceeded one minute — he has taken nearly two.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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One minute is allowed for a supplementary but I have not yet asked a supplementary.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I point out to the Deputy he has exceeded one minute.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Who will make the decision on the Central Mental Hospital? Has the Minister taken professional advice on siting a prison and a hospital on the same campus?
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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On the last point, they would not be on the same campus, they would be on adjacent campuses. On the acquisition cost, the land in question was the cheapest land per acre suitable for the construction of a prison which was offered to the committee.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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It is true.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Order, please. The Minister is in possession.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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It is true. I have examined the records and it was the cheapest land per acre for land which was suitable for the construction of a prison.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Some was ruled in and some was ruled out.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy would be asking me different questions if I bought unsuitable land.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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It was a bit of a fox trot.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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There is no fox trot, it is just common sense.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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One time you stepped in and the other time you stepped out.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I want to put on the record that in July last Deputy O'Keeffe announced that five acres, which was part of the farm at Thornton Hall that was kept back by the owner because it had planning permission potential, had a value of €1 million per acre. However, later in this House, his party, not himself, said the remaining 150 acres had a total value of €6 million. It is an interesting proposition that five acres was worth €1 million while 150 acres was worth €6 million. I do not accept these figures.
Deputy Costello implied that the project is not going ahead but I want to make it clear that it is going ahead. The land is suitable for the construction of a prison which will be built. It is political play-acting on the part of Deputy Costello who tried to send in Dublin City Council to prevent Mountjoy being redeveloped on historical grounds and some of his allies are now sending in Fingal County Council officials to try to preserve the land because of its historical and archaeological significance. A full survey is being carried out by the State on the land in question. All the requisite expertise will be deployed and the prison will be built on the site.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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There are two issues on the value. Clearly the Minister has no clue about land values. Anyone who does not realise that five acres which is zoned for building has enormous value as opposed to agricultural land that is unzoned realises nothing. Incidentally, the five acres was originally supposed to be included and at the last minute it was excluded. This farm was the dearest farm in Europe. The Minister would not allow the Comptroller and Adjutant General to examine the situation before the sale was completed and I can see why.
Given that the Minister has now completed the deal and thrown away the taxpayers' money, is there not considerable evidence that this site is very unsuitable? Access is terribly bad and the roads are not suitable for the traffic at the moment. The public services are not in place, which it will cost a fortune to install. The Minister said to me at one stage that he would not listen to any old guff about fairy forts. If he had any sense of culture or history, would he not accept that there is a wealth of history and archaeology in the area? What timeframe is he proposing and what is the cost estimate for the structure he intends to build on the site?
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Deputy O'Keeffe valued the five acres at €1 million per acre.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I did not value it, a local valuer did it for me.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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That is fair enough. The Deputy accepted this figure and put it into the public domain. I paid less than one fifth of that per acre for the remaining 150 acres.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The land in question is totally suitable for the purpose for which it was bought. It was examined carefully by a team of engineers. The report is available under FOI to anyone who wants to see it. The Deputy can examine it at any time if he wishes. He knows it was examined fully at the time of purchase. As an environmental impact procedure will be put in place, the Deputy need not worry about these matters.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes, and the Deputy should know that it is suitable land. Road access to the land is not inadequate as has been suggested. I wonder has the Deputy driven up the long straight road, because he would be impressed by the road access to the land. It is not as inadequate as the Deputy is implying.
On the construction of the prison campus, this will be done on a public private partnership basis. The Department of Finance's public private partnership experts and the treasury management agency's experts concurred that the first thing to do for a PPP for a prison is to acquire the site, which has been done. I cannot now put a cost estimate on the entire deal. In the nature of PPP tendering, it would be foolish of me to commit to that.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Give me a ballpark figure.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I believe it will run to €200 million or €300 million, depending on how extensive a prison facility is constructed. It will be between two and six years before it is completed fully. On the Mountjoy site, it is my intention to dispose of it. Given a proper planning scheme, it will recover for taxpayers well in excess of €100 million.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Do not rush it. Do not throw away taxpayers' money again.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I have the facts and figures which indicate there were much cheaper sites. The services are now estimated to cost €40 million, even though there was a previous low estimate of €8 million. What has caused the increase? Will the Minister give an assurance that he will allow Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council to survey the sites at Thornton Hall and Mountjoy to see if there are conservation issues relating to architecture, heritage and history? We do not want him to be a total iconoclast and knock everything down. It is one thing to propose a new prison but it is another issue to demolish part of the heritage of this country.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Unlike Deputy Costello, I believe that Mountjoy Prison should be demolished. There are a couple of features which can be retained as part of redevelopment of the site, including the execution shed which it is proposed to remove to Kilmainham.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Will the Minister allow Dublin City Council to examine the site?
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The work will go ahead and the campaign of obstruction against it will not succeed. I am amused by the neighbouring landowners who suddenly say that the fields I bought are of huge architectural significance. Who was there when they built their houses? No one has explained what is under their houses. Just because I buy land it becomes of architectural significance, while they have built a palazzi around it without carrying out any archaeological investigations.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That is no way to talk about Senator O'Toole in his absence.