Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Question 86: To ask the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if he will report on the current industrial relations situation at An Post; if a final resolution to all present industrial relations matters can be expected; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34714/05]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Question 88: To ask the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources the extent to which he has studied the underlying causes of industrial unrest at An Post; his proposals for the provision of postal, delivery and counter services in the future having particular regard to the degree to which the public relies on and requires such a service; his proposals both short and long-term in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34908/05]

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 86 and 88 together.

The current dispute in An Post is a serious national issue and one in which every effort is being made to reach a timely and viable resolution. It would be helpful if I outline the background to the current industrial relations problems at An Post.

I emphasise that An Post has been through a protracted process that began in 2003 following the disclosure of serious losses by the company. On foot of these, which amounted to €43 million alone in 2003, the Government asked the board and management of the company to prepare a recovery strategy to return An Post to financial solvency. This strategy, in setting the way forward for the company, has assumed significant changes in work practices, tariff increases and the payment of wage increases.

The plan was presented to An Post trade unions in late 2003. The Communications Workers Union withdrew from negotiations in December 2003. In recognition of the dire financial position facing the company, An Post invoked the inability to pay clause available under Sustaining Progress.

Following industrial action in the Dublin mail centre in March 2004, the Labour Relations Commission was asked to become involved in resolving the industrial relations difficulties. The two parties spent from April 2004 to November 2004 in the LRC. The proposals arising out of the LRC were put to the CWU membership and turned down by the union. The outstanding issues were then referred to the Labour Court for resolution.

On foot of union concerns that An Post management had no real experience of the postal sector, the Labour Court appointed a three-person expert group to come up with a workable proposal on collection and delivery that would be acceptable to members of the Communications Workers Union. That group spent six months working on a comprehensive proposal regarding collection and delivery, which was published in July 2005.

In the early part of 2005, the An Post group of unions referred the non-payment of Sustaining Progress to the LRC, as provided for under the Sustaining Progress agreement. The LRC appointed assessors to examine the claim. The assessors report recommended that having regard to An Post financials, 5% should be paid to employees, backdated to 1 January this year. That recommendation was accepted by An Post management and rejected by the CWU.

The Labour Court issued a comprehensive recommendation which outlined that the acceptance of the deal on collection and delivery would trigger payment of the bulk of Sustaining Progress. The Labour Court deal would have allowed a postman to obtain a 9% pay increase this year on top of a 5% Sustaining Progress pay increase already made, giving a total increase of 14%.

The Labour Court recommendation was considered by the executive of the CWU but was not put to a ballot of members. Instead, the union decided to ballot for strike action on the non-payment of Sustaining Progress. After a vote for industrial action, the union gave two weeks' strike notice to the company, ending on Friday, 4 November.

At no stage have I apportioned blame to one side over the other. I have stated the facts as they are and the history in An Post over the last ten years has not been great. The industrial climate in the company has been characterised by agreement to and payment for industrial relations agreements but little actual delivery on the ground. Payment up front means that the company pays for change but subsequently only gets partial benefits and thus worsens an already fragile financial position.

Both the Taoiseach and I have emphasised to both the management and unions of An Post that the only way forward is for both parties to agree a deal within the parameters of the Labour Court recommendations. While I have recently met both management and the CWU in an attempt to overcome the impasse, I requested the national implementation body, NIB, to invite both parties to sit down separately with a view to resolving the dispute. The talks began on 2 November, with a breakthrough occurring late on Sunday, 6 November.

I understand that, at an emergency meeting of the CWU's disputes committee, held on 7 November, it was agreed to defer strike action for a week pending an independent assessment of the costs of changes in work practices that is to be carried out by external accountants. The NIB met the management side yesterday and the CWU and has indicated that the process initiated in conjunction with the accountants would be finalised today. The NIB proposes to meet the parties this evening and has requested that they refrain from comment and treat the accountant's report as confidential for a period of 24 hours after it is presented.

A recent and very positive development in the resolution of the company's difficulties concerns a separate claim submitted by the other unions in An Post, the AHCPS, the PSEU and the CPSU. On 1 November, the Labour Court issued three new recommendations, advising that members of these unions are to receive the Sustaining Progress increases as set out in the Labour Court's July recommendation. The court found that these unions' members had either implemented work practice changes required of them or had committed to doing so. The recommendations were accepted by the company which stated that workers and pensioners concerned would receive these increases shortly.

There will continue to be a key national role for An Post, both in delivery of mail and as a quality service provider through its nationwide network of post office outlets. The market for traditional postal and post office services is changing globally and meeting customer needs has become more important than ever. To remain competitive, An Post needs to make the best possible use of its long-established and trusted brand name and deploy its resources in a manner which continues to serve existing customers' needs and attracts additional customers for a range of new services.

The simple fact remains that the company needs to introduce modern work practices if it is to thrive in a competitive environment. I want to see An Post continuing to deliver a high quality postal service to the people. To enable the company to provide this service, the archaic work practices that the workers themselves have acknowledged are archaic need to be changed.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Will the Minister provide the House with the information on the number of An Post pensioners who have died in the past three years since the failure of the An Post company to pay its due cost of living increases? I am led to believe that 74 An Post pensioners died in that period and did not receive their due increases.

The Minister said in his reply that he did not take sides in this dispute but is it not the reality that he did take sides? A few weeks ago he blatantly took sides and tried to portray An Post workers, the postmen and women of this country, as lazy, overpaid, pampered workers who were only doing three or three and a half hours' work a day. Is that not what the Minister said about the postal workers of this country? He blackguarded them in a disgraceful manner and presented them as lazy, unproductive workers when he knew that was not the case. All he had to do was go into his local post office in Navan or Trim to see that was not the case. Instead, the Minister blackguarded the postal workers of this country and made the resolution of this dispute more difficult when he knew the reality that delivering the post day in, day out to 600 or 800 houses is a very tough job. The only other members of a profession who know how tough it is are politicians because we go door to door all the time. The Minister did that only recently with his "Dempsey Delivers" posters, although he has not delivered.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Where did the Minister get the information on work practices? Was it not disgraceful that in the middle of this delicate dispute, the Minister threatened An Post workers and communities throughout the country with immediate privatisation and liberalisation? He said a few weeks ago that he would do that if necessary. That was the Minister's way forward. When politicians meet our constituents who are postal workers or when we call into post offices, is it any wonder that we find they are hopping mad and very upset because they believe the Minister, as their guardian, and the media have not given them a fair crack of the whip and have presented this dispute in outrageous black and white terms when everybody knows there are issues to do with electronic substitution and deregulation which have not been presented. The Minister has performed badly in this dispute.

My final point relates to management. This management has created a poisonous industrial relations climate, one of the worst I have ever seen. It has created a logjam but instead of the Minister telling the chief executive and chief operations officer that it is time for him to make changes in the management of An Post, he ensured they got bonuses. They destroyed the universal service obligation and reduced it by approximately 20%——

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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A final question please, Deputy.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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——but the Minister's only action was to give them significant bonuses of tens of thousands of euro and a €50,000 bonus for the chairperson. Is that not a ridiculous way for a guiding Minister of an important semi-State body to carry on?

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Broughan would be the first to jump up and down in this House if I, as Minister, started interfering with the appointment of anybody in An Post, even a postman. I am sure he would be highly irate about that. Questions of appointment, management and so on are matters for the board of An Post, not the Minister. It is important that it should be so.

I agree that the industrial relations climate in An Post is poisonous. Unlike Deputy Broughan, however, I do not attribute this to one side or the other. Such an approach will not solve any of the problems. I am the guardian of neither the workers nor the management of An Post.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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In the United States, the Minister would be the postmaster general.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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As Minister, I have a responsibility to this House and to the public to ensure we have a postal service that works well into the future.

When one spells out realities, it is sometimes difficult for people to accept that one is doing anything other than issuing threats. In response to a query about what would happen in the event that a resolution could not be found and the postal service were to grind to a halt for an indeterminable period, I simply answered that another postal service would have to be provided. This development is already happening in any event. The liberalisation of the market will take place by 2009. The report by Mr. Paddy Walley for the CWU recognised that there are archaic work practices in An Post. We should not fool ourselves in this regard. There is a problem in the company and it will not be solved by either side refusing to change. In fairness, both sides have indicated in the last week to ten days that they are prepared to work towards a resolution.

I did not try to portray the post office workers as lazy, pampered or unproductive. I did not blackguard them.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister said they worked for three hours a day.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I gave answers to questions that were put to me, the information for which was available to me from the Department and from An Post workers and managers. I did not at any stage say that all workers work for three and a half hours a day. That is the case for some, however.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Who are they?

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Minister should be allowed to continue without interruption.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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In response to specific questions, I told the truth as I know it and as it is confirmed to me. I blackguarded nobody. If people have a problem with the truth, that is their problem rather than mine. Little service would be paid to An Post workers and management, or the general public, by making this issue into a political football.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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That is what the Minister did.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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There is a problem in An Post that must be resolved. That will only happen by the two sides talking to each other. I have made this clear from the beginning.

Regarding the number of pensioners, I was informed by the union, but cannot verify this figure, that some 74 pensioners have died in the last number of years without receiving their payments under Sustaining Progress.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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That is very sad.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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It is very sad. The sooner the union and management reach an agreement, the sooner those pension increases will be paid. These pensioners are the unfortunate losers. I again urge both sides to work together on foot of the report they will receive this afternoon to resolve the issue for the benefit of An Post pensioners, workers and consumers.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister comment on what has happened in the last 12 months? For instance, is he satisfied that adequate action and intervention have taken place to attain a resolution of the problems? Does he not accept that his intervention took place at the 11th hour, constituting a fire brigade action in keeping with the standard reaction in this matter? One of the underlying problems in An Post is the non-payment of pension entitlements to former employees of An Post. Does the Minister agree this is a mean, stingy and insulting action? Should it not be a first principle that the issue is resolved for those who are retired? They should not be penalised. It is an appallingly stingy action to withhold payment from them and it serves no useful purpose.

Will the Minister indicate whether he has ascertained the estimated financial costs of meeting the issues that are the cause of this dispute? Was it beneficial to this debate to read in the newspapers the salaries and overtime of the ten highest paid postmen in the Dublin area? It might have been more helpful to also include details of the ten lowest paid postmen or sub-postmasters. Would this not have been far more constructive in the context of the appallingly poor labour relations in An Post?

The Minister was making deliveries in Trim and Navan recently. Does he intend to have to deliver the post soon?

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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He may end up doing so.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister see a future for a national postal service, as we have had in the past, or has he made up his mind about something else? His statements suggest he has something else in mind that might be better. In those circumstances, I remind him of the various other utility services previously in public ownership. What benefit has the consumer received from the changes in this regard?

What has the Minister done in the last 12 months, by way of policy directive, to encourage the expansion of the scale and scope of the services available through An Post? I have observed elsewhere that the updating of the electoral register might be a useful exercise which An Post workers, who visit most doors on a regular basis, could undertake. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government opined publicly that this would be a good idea but there has been no further response. Has anything been done in this regard?

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I have met members of the union executive some half a dozen times in the last year. During that time, I have also met the company management on a number of occasions. I do not wish to go through the entire industrial relations machinery of the State which has been employed in this matter. I know Deputies opposite must say something on this issue. However, discussions were ongoing in the LRC, a technical group was established to examine the implications of the proposals and the Labour Court, Mr. Peter Cassells and a range of other bodies were involved in its resolution. If the Minister of the day intervened in An Post and got between union and management, I know what the Deputies opposite would say. I am satisfied that over the past 12 months I did everything I possibly and legally could do without upsetting the industrial relations machinery to bring both sides together to resolve the matters and avoid a strike. At no stage was there any fire brigade action.

The problem with the payment of An Post pensioners stems from the precedent established by the laws on pensions. Pensioners are paid pro rata——

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Some of them are civil servants.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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——as wages are increased in the public service.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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What about Civil Service entitlements?

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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That is a separate issue.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is not. That is at the core of the problem.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Minister without interruption.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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The principle of parity between pay and pensions is extremely important to pensioners as it is a protection for them that the link is not broken. Despite efforts that were made——

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It was not there to be broken.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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——it was believed it should not be broken. That was in the best interest of workers and pensioners.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was not in the best interests of industrial relations.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I would love to pay An Post pensioners at the moment.

A variety of different figures exist on the financial costs of resolving this dispute. It is not just a question of cost but of savings by changing archaic work practices. Various figures have been bandied around ranging from €10 million to €20 million to €32 million. It is not an exact science.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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What about the net cost?

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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The important issue is the changing of work practices to ensure the company's future viability. If Deputy Durkan is insinuating that I was behind the release of information on the salaries of the ten top-earning postal workers which appeared in newspapers——

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is out. Someone had to do it.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Some malicious spinner.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I did not insinuate anything. I simply laid it out for comment by the Minister.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We believe the Government did not do that.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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——he is wrong. I have no idea what the top-earning or low-earning postal workers are being paid.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who did it then?

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Order.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I suggest the Deputy takes the matter up with the newspapers and asks them for their sources.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I call Question No. 87.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What about the alternative services? The Minister did not answer my question on them.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I call Question No. 87.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is another case of Dempsey failing to deliver again.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I would have answered the question if I was not interrupted.