Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Question 107: To ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the progress made to date with regard to the public consultation process on the groceries order; when he expects to make a decision on the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31581/05]

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Question 133: To ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment when he intends to take a decision on the groceries order; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31632/05]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 107 and 133 together.

The public consultation process on the groceries order generated more than 550 submissions which were received from a wide range of parties, including a significant number from the general public. The submissions have all been considered and my Department has now compiled a detailed report on the process. I have also met various groups in the past month to discuss the groceries order. The report is comprehensive and I intend to bring recommendations to Government shortly. Revocation or amendment of the order will require primary legislation.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The last line has at least been changed from the standard reply. A word processor was required to change the answer this time.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is definitely changing.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The last answer the Minister gave the House on this issue stated that findings would be considered and recommendations would be brought to Government by the end of October. That date has come and gone. When will the Minister make the decision, and what will the decision be? The Minister has consulted widely and there were 550 submissions, so what is so difficult? The Minister's public utterances convey a very clear view on what he wishes to do, regardless of submissions. When will we witness the decision and relevant legislative proposals?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will see those very shortly and I look forward to his support.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is difficult to support something we cannot see.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What does that mean? In telling this House for months that the decision is coming shortly and then providing a specific date, the end of October, it is not good enough to be glib and state that it will come shortly. The livelihood of interested parties depends on this decision and it is a matter to get right.

The Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business has had detailed discussions with all interested parties. I was aghast to hear the Minister dismiss all this on a radio programme as being irrelevant, and that the work done on a cross-party basis by the joint committee was of little concern to him. When will the Minister appear before the joint committee to hear the views of all members, including members of his own party, on the issue and reach an accommodation? The joint committee is agreed on change that will drive forward an agenda to best protect the consumer and present choice, accessibility and proper spatial planning.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have made no glib response. I have given detailed consideration to the issue, as is appropriate. The Government will make the decision before it is brought to the House along with legislative proposals.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When will this happen?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should allow me to respond. I was somewhat surprised that originally, there was a knee-jerk reaction on the part of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business to oppose any change to the groceries order, even before the consumer strategy group reported.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There was no such thing.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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However, I am glad to see there has been some amendment of that position.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Has the Minister read the reports? There are two of them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have. While it is extremely carefully worded on a number of fronts, I have made it clear that the retention of the groceries order is not a tenable proposition in the future. However, the Department received 550 written submissions on this matter. As I have stated, it was only fair to give those concerned about the issue an opportunity to discuss it with me verbally. This has taken place over recent weeks. I was not being glib about the issue and it was unfair of Deputy Howlin to suggest that. It is important to give that opportunity to people——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When will we see a result?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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——from different sides. Consequently, as I have stated, I will go before the Government shortly and will not pre-empt its decision. I will come back before the House when that decision has been taken.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister believe there should be a retention of the ban on predatory pricing and below cost selling?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I have stated, the existing order is not a ban on below cost selling but is on below the net invoice price——

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should answer the question he was asked.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the first instance, I will bring my recommendations to the Government. It will make a decision on the issue and I will then revert back to the House. In time honoured fashion, I am going about this in the proper manner. First, I will go to the Executive and then I will bring the matter back before the House.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has stated he is in favour of abandoning the groceries order. He has just stated he will bring his views on the groceries order to the Government first and then before this House in an orderly fashion. He has already made his views known.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is the Minister's conclusion.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister agree that the bans on predatory pricing or below cost selling should be retained? I know this is not easy for me to understand.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should define what he means.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is being quite arrogant.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy understand what he has just asked?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The Minister should answer the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The groceries order is not a ban on below cost selling and is not a ban on predatory pricing.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask the Minister about the groceries order. I asked him another question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Existing legislation already covers that.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Minister a different question. That is not a shared view.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Can the Minister clarify the supplementary answer he has just given? He stated that existing legislation deals with the issue of predatory pricing. What section of the Companies Act deals with the issue of predatory pricing? Is it not a fact that one must be a dominant player and that in the grocery trade, the criteria are laid down by the courts? No one has reached the 40% threshold for being a dominant player in the market. The Minister has now told the House that a law exists which would protect against predatory pricing. Where is it?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Competition Act deals with the issue. I sought advice and views on this matter and it deals with the issue of predatory pricing and abuse of dominance.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It does not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The issue of jurisprudence is separate. However, I do not accept the proposition which the Deputy has just articulated. As I stated earlier, I will bring the full range of proposals and recommendations on this issue to the Government shortly. I will then make a full presentation of those recommendations to the House. Comprehensive work has been carried out on the issue by officials within my Department and I ask Members, when they get time, to read them——

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister read the report by the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have read the joint committee's report and have had discussions with its chairman.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In that case, the Minister is fully briefed. Deputy Cassidy will have briefed him fully.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is an interesting report.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As a brief and final supplementary matter, there are two reports, so I am unsure whether the Minister has read both. He has referred to a single report when there are two reports.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In view of the importance which the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business has attached to these matters and the fact that it has spent a great deal of time and public energy on them, will the Minister come before the joint committee with his comprehensive proposals to discuss them in advance of working out the mechanisms for a final decision? In other words, I ask him not to pre-empt the Government's decision but to discuss mechanisms, as far as the specific legislation is concerned, with the joint committee before reaching a final immutable position.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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First, the Government makes decisions on these issues. This is the position.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Under the Constitution, law is made by the Oireachtas. I know that comes as a shock to the Minister.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have not finished and the Deputy does not appear inclined to give me an opportunity to do so.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is the Oireachtas and not the Government which makes law.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government makes decisions on whether to introduce legislation to the House. Such legislation is then published and it is then open for all Members to have an input into it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Does that mean the Minister will not come near the joint committee?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should allow me to finish. This will require primary legislation and all Members will have the opportunity to contribute to any legislation. In addition, I have no difficulty in discussing the report that I will produce and publish with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. The joint committee members will require time to discuss the report. However, under no circumstances can the committee itself take on board the executive function of the Government to decide what legislation may be brought before the House. In the ordinary course of legislation which passes through the House, Deputies may table amendments to it. This is the context in which they normally make their views known on any issue.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is good that the Minister may accept the Members' views. If he had accepted them on the issue of directors' compliance, he would not have walked into that problem.