Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs his views on the fact that persons (details supplied) dependent on social welfare receive €413.02 per week, including child benefit payment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30837/05]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Following the social welfare increases awarded in last year's budget, the lowest rate of social welfare payment currently stands at €148.80 per week. Depending on their circumstances, social welfare recipients are also entitled to additions to the personal rate of payment in respect of a spouse or partner and dependent children. In the case of a two-adult household with three children, the weekly social welfare payment including child benefit is in the order of €413.

Government policy with regard to social welfare rates is guided by the commitment in the revised national anti-poverty strategy, NAPS, to increase the lowest social welfare personal rates to €150 per week in 2002 terms by 2007 and to set the appropriate equivalence level of child income support, combining child benefit and child dependant allowances, at 33% to 35% of the adult rates. We remain on target to achieve this objective. In budget 2005, the lowest rates of social welfare were increased by €14 per week while the rates of child benefit were increased by €10 to €141.60 per month for the first two children and by €12 to €177.30 per month for the third and subsequent children. The equivalence level of child income support now stands at 33.3% of the lowest social welfare rate for those receiving the lower rate of child benefit and 38.8% for those on the higher rate.

The details supplied with the question claim that an income level of €528.49 per week is necessary for a family of two adults and three children to avoid being in consistent poverty. This is not quite correct. The figure has been calculated by the CORI justice commission and refers to the 60% median poverty line for a family of two adults and three children. This is the so-called at risk of poverty indicator, which is one of a range of measures used by the EU to measure poverty and social exclusion. The relative income measure is essentially about inequality of incomes and identifies those with an income below 60% of the median income for society as a whole and who as a result may be at risk of poverty. The poverty measure that underpins the revised NAPS is the consistent poverty measure which identifies those who are at risk of poverty and deprived of certain items considered by Irish people as necessary to ensure a basic standard of living.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What is the basic minimum income for a family with three children to avoid consistent poverty? Has the Department calculated the figure needed in order that such a family can afford essentials? Am I correct in saying that the Minister fundamentally disagrees with CORI's figure?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The issue is bedevilled by attempts to statistically measure poverty. Estimates are made in terms of consistent poverty, risk of poverty and relative poverty, with different purposes for each. In addition, the Central Statistics Office, the EU and the UN have different measures of poverty.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What is the Minister's measure?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have a figure.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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He has no view.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I have been around too long to estimate for the Deputy what people need to live.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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He should seek the wisdom of Job.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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While I would ask a similar question if I was in opposition, consistent improvements have been made in this area. When making a determination on State support, account must be taken of different circumstances, for example, whether a family lives in a local authority or inherited house or has to pay a mortgage.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister agree that income poverty is the basic cause of consistent poverty? Does he have any idea of what the appropriate basic income should be for a family of two adults and three children? He should stop muddying the waters with his waffle. How close is the Minister's estimate to that of CORI?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The sum of €528.49 was supplied in the details accompanying the question. That is a suggestion from one quarter. The other figure is €413.02 which was referred to in the question. To give the Deputy an appropriate answer to his question, all the circumstances of the family must be taken into account.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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No, only the family income.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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To ascertain what is an adequate income for any family, and not only a family living in poverty, depends very much on——

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The family's basic income.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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——the circumstances of the family.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has been around here too long.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I think so.