David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs his views on relative income and consistent poverty as measures of poverty here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23746/05]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The most recent statistics on poverty levels in Ireland are derived from the new 2003 EU Survey on Income and Living Conditions, EU-SILC, and were released earlier this year by the Central Statistics Office. This survey replaces the Living in Ireland Survey, which was conducted by the Economic and Social Research Institute until 2001 and which provided data on consistent and relative poverty up to that year.

The nature of poverty and its effects are multidimensional and no one measure can give a complete picture regarding deprivation, poverty and social inclusion.

The relative "at risk of poverty" indicator measures income alone. The EU-SILC results reported that 22.7% of persons were at risk of poverty in 2003 based on the proportion of the population below an income threshold of 60% of median income. The 2003 figures represent a slight increase on the 2001 figure of 21.9%.

When countries experience rapid economic growth, however, as in Ireland in the 1990s, relative poverty measures on their own may not provide a clear measure of actual poverty. For example, using the "at risk of poverty" measure, relative income poverty in Ireland rose from 15.6% to 20.9% between 1994 and 2000. If we use the same measure and timeframe and increase the poverty line only by consumer prices, the "anchored poverty line approach", the level of poverty falls by 55.9%.

The main reason, therefore, for the increase in the "at risk of poverty" rate is the increase in incomes generally on which this rate is in part measured. For example, a recent EUROSTAT study calculated the monetary value of the 60% threshold in terms of purchasing power standards terms in 2003 for a household of two adults and two children. The value of the threshold for Ireland is above the EU average and is ranked eighth highest overall in the EU 25. Many households in Ireland with incomes below the 60% threshold may have a better standard of living than similar households classified as not at risk of poverty in other member states.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

Furthermore, not all those below the 60% of median income threshold are regarded as being in poverty, even in an Irish context, as that also depends on other factors such as the extent to which their income is below the threshold, the length of time they have been living on a low income, the degree to which their assets will have run down while on a low income and the other resources they have at their disposal. This indicator measures income alone and does not take account, for example, of the high level of home ownership and entitlement to household allowances such as electricity, fuel, television licence and telephone rental, which are particularly important in Ireland in the case of the elderly.

The "consistent poverty" measure is used in this country to identify those experiencing basic deprivation. This is calculated by identifying from among those at risk of poverty with incomes below the 60% threshold those who are also deprived of basic goods and services regarded as essential for living in Ireland today. The EU-SILC survey reported that 10.2% of households experienced consistent poverty in 2003, up from 5.2% in 2001 under the earlier LIIS survey. However, both the CSO and the ESRI have made it clear that methodological differences between the two surveys mean the figures for 2001 and 2003 are not comparable and that it is therefore not possible to conclude from them whether the level of consistent poverty changed.

There is certainly no reason to believe there has been a worsening in poverty levels in recent years. Between 2001 and 2005 spending on social welfare payments has increased from €7.8 billion to €12.2 billion. During the same period the lowest social welfare rates have increased by 40% while the consumer price index has increased by just over 13%. As a result of budget 2005, welfare payments have increased by three times the expected rate of inflation.

Nevertheless, what is not in question from the survey results are the groups identified as being most at risk. These include families with children, mainly lone parents, or larger families, those who are unemployed or with disabilities, and older people, especially those living alone. EU-SILC confirms the findings of earlier analyses in this regard and provides information on the most vulnerable groups in society towards whom policy should be focussed.

While the EU-SILC results highlighted the difficulties in measuring poverty, the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion, prior to the release of these results, had approved a review of the method of poverty measurement in Ireland. This work is now being progressed as part of the NAPS data strategy, co-ordinated by the office for social inclusion based in my Department.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister agree he is massaging the figures and that he has ignored the number of children in relative income poverty who live in households where the income is less than 60% of median disposable income? Does he agree the number of these children is estimated to be an additional 240,000 on top of the between 60,000 and 120,000 children whom the Minister says are affected in some way by consistent poverty? Does he agree it is a disgrace in this day and age? What has he done and what does he intend to do about it in the short term to ensure these children are removed from the risk of poverty?

Does the Minister agree that lone-parent households are exposed to a greater incidence of child poverty than dual or single income two parent households? Will the Minister tell the House why this figure of relative income poverty represents the highest rate of child poverty to be found in the European Union? This is an indictment of the policies of the Minister's Department and the Government, they have failed the children of Ireland by ignoring relative income poverty statistics put forward by the Combat Poverty Agency, an independent agency that castigated the Government for not taking relative income poverty into account and ignoring its impact on children.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The relative income poverty measure here is 22.7%. At the risk attracting unwanted headlines, I do not believe 22.7% of the people of Ireland live in poverty. That is the relative income measure and the word "relative" is important. We are all poor relative to someone else. I have been critical of the measurements before. I rely on the figures from the ESRI, NESC, CSO and EU but I also point out to those bodies that the Department is working through the NAP strategy to make progress in this area.

We must get our act together on how we measure poverty. We cannot use the figure of 22.7% because it is not real. The Deputy made the point about children living in relative poverty. There is another, more realistic measure — consistent poverty — and I am targeting resources at it. Welfare spending in 2001 was €8 billion and this year was €12 billion, with a huge proportion of that going into child benefit and much of it being targeted at families.

Whatever differences there are about percentages, there is no difference about where poverty exists. All studies point out that those most at risk are families with children, mainly lone parents, larger families, those who are unemployed or disabled and older people living alone. I am targeting those areas with the carer's allowance, increased lone parent's allowance, child benefit and a range of supports and I am making it easier for people to get back to work, the best way to tackle poverty for those able to do it.

I caution against operating from the totally unrealistic figure of 22.7% because relative poverty is an interesting academic measurement but, paradoxically, as the country gets richer, the relative poverty figure increases. If the country continues to grow at this rate, will be talking about 60% of the people being poor in ten years? The figure must be looked at in that context. It is useful but in terms of focusing on the vulnerable groups, it is not helpful.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister says he will ignore relative income poverty and he will not answer the question about what he will do to address poverty. Does he agree that 148,000 children are in consistently poor homes — 14.6% of all children — according to the latest CSO data from 2003, as reported in the most recently published ending child poverty policy document produced by the Combat Poverty Agency?

Will the Minister tell us what "consistently poor" means and what he intends to do about this? I do not want to know what he has done, I want to know what he will do about it. These are up to date figures from the Combat Poverty Agency. Will he continue to ignore relative income poverty? Is it Government policy to ignore statistics from the Combat Poverty Agency on children in relative income poverty?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I will keep it in perspective. The 22.7% figure is interesting but the figure for consistent poverty is 5.2%.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It is 14.6% according to the CSO.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The EU-SILC survey for 2003 reported that 10.2% of households — an increase from 5.2%, I apologise — are in consistent poverty.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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So is the CSO wrong?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Consistent poverty is regarded as those deprived of basic goods and services with incomes below the 60% threshold. I will focus on consistent poverty and child poverty. The figures I have for child poverty range from 66,000 to 120,000.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is doing nothing about it.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I am continuing to increase child benefit and welfare payments, which have already increased dramatically. I am finalising work on the possibility of a second tier of child benefit which would be focused exclusively on children in low income households. We have had a number of meetings about that and we are making progress. It will be a major instrument in tackling child poverty.