Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)

The relative income poverty measure here is 22.7%. At the risk attracting unwanted headlines, I do not believe 22.7% of the people of Ireland live in poverty. That is the relative income measure and the word "relative" is important. We are all poor relative to someone else. I have been critical of the measurements before. I rely on the figures from the ESRI, NESC, CSO and EU but I also point out to those bodies that the Department is working through the NAP strategy to make progress in this area.

We must get our act together on how we measure poverty. We cannot use the figure of 22.7% because it is not real. The Deputy made the point about children living in relative poverty. There is another, more realistic measure — consistent poverty — and I am targeting resources at it. Welfare spending in 2001 was €8 billion and this year was €12 billion, with a huge proportion of that going into child benefit and much of it being targeted at families.

Whatever differences there are about percentages, there is no difference about where poverty exists. All studies point out that those most at risk are families with children, mainly lone parents, larger families, those who are unemployed or disabled and older people living alone. I am targeting those areas with the carer's allowance, increased lone parent's allowance, child benefit and a range of supports and I am making it easier for people to get back to work, the best way to tackle poverty for those able to do it.

I caution against operating from the totally unrealistic figure of 22.7% because relative poverty is an interesting academic measurement but, paradoxically, as the country gets richer, the relative poverty figure increases. If the country continues to grow at this rate, will be talking about 60% of the people being poor in ten years? The figure must be looked at in that context. It is useful but in terms of focusing on the vulnerable groups, it is not helpful.

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