Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Question 28: To ask the Minister for Transport if he is satisfied with the progress made to date in the decentralisation of State agencies under his control; his views on the number of posts to be decentralised in each location; the number of personnel identified and willing to move to these locations; the work which is under way to ensure full-take up of this scheme to fill the specified number of posts in each location; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21220/05]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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A number of posts, including 40 posts in the road haulage division of the Department of Transport and ten posts in the National Safety Council, have been identified as early movers under the decentralisation programme. The 50 posts in question are being relocated to Loughrea. I am satisfied with the progress being made in this regard. Nineteen people in the Department of Transport have expressed interest in moving to Loughrea. In the context of the Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill, which is before the House at present, I am considering whether additional road safety functions, including some of the functions proposed for Loughrea, can be given to the authority. That could increase the level of flexibility associated with the decentralisation of the 50 posts identified for Loughrea. Implementation plans have been prepared in the meantime. The Office of Public Works is making good progress in identifying a suitable site at Loughrea.

Plans for other agencies are at an early stage because they have not been identified as early movers by the decentralisation implementation group. Discussions are continuing between the Department of Transport, the agencies and the Department of Finance. Implementation plans are being updated. There may be some variations in the plans for the relocation of posts as implementation plans are finalised, but I expect the projected numbers in each location to be achieved. There is a particular issue with the Bus Éireann numbers. While the proposal to relocate some headquarters posts in the company to Mitchelstown remains unchanged, the company has identified just 86 posts as being suitable for decentralisation. The target number of Bus Éireann posts to be decentralised is 200. The difficulty presented in that context is being examined by the company.

The table that follows this response outlines details of the number of posts under the aegis of the Department of Transport which will be decentralised to various locations and the number of applicants who have indicated their willingness to move to the locations in question. The Department of Finance is in discussions with the unions and staff associations of the State agencies with a view to progressing this issue centrally.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am in favour of decentralisation in cases in which it makes sense, as long as it is done in sufficient numbers to create a critical mass. I do not accept the Government's scattergun approach. I am particularly disturbed by the proposal to decentralise specialist agencies such as the National Safety Council, the Irish Aviation Authority and the Railway Safety Commission which are under the aegis of the Department of Transport. One cannot expect members of staff from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, for example, to be able to perform the specialist functions which are undertaken in such bodies.

The Minister said that 86 jobs in Bus Éireann have been deemed to be suitable for decentralisation, but none of those who are employed in those 86 jobs is willing to move. Just two employees of the Irish Aviation Authority have expressed an interest in being decentralised to Shannon. No officials from the Department's road haulage unit or the Railway Safety Commission are interested in the decentralisation programme. Nobody in the National Roads Authority wants to go to Ballinasloe.

Should the entire scheme, other than the parts of it involving non-specialist staff from the Department of Transport, be abandoned? I have concerns about the loss of value that will result from the loss of specialist staff. Problems will be encountered when the various agencies try to recruit specialist staff to fulfil the terms of the decentralisation programme, which does not seem to make sense. Is the Minister reconsidering the project? I suggest that he should do so.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The answer to the Deputy's final question is "No". I am committed to the decentralisation programme. Like many Deputies, I can cite examples of the successful operation of the previous decentralisation programme throughout the country. When it was proposed to decentralise the Land Registry to Waterford, which is in my constituency, everyone said it was not possible to transfer a large number of specialist staff who were dealing in a specific legal field. It was suggested at the time that such officials would be unwilling to move. While it took time to organise that transfer, it was completed and it has worked extremely successfully. I think a similar pattern will be followed in this instance.

It is proposed under the decentralisation programme to transfer 40 officials in the road haulage division of the Department of Transport to Loughrea. Some 19 people in that section have expressed an interest in the move, as have 73 workers in other parts of the public service. That particular move is well over-subscribed. Some 29 public servants have expressed an interest in taking one of the ten National Safety Council positions which are to be moved to Loughrea. That is also well over-subscribed. Some 63 people from outside the National Roads Authority have declared an interest in the decentralisation of 90 jobs with the authority to Ballinasloe. Deputy Olivia Mitchell cited the correct figures for Bus Éireann, the Irish Aviation Authority and the Railway Safety Commission.

Decentralisation is a good thing for local economies throughout the country. It will help to attract business, for example. If the State expresses a willingness to locate in certain areas, the confidence of companies which are considering similar moves will be boosted. The decentralisation process can be difficult in some circumstances. Deputy Mitchell was right to identify that it becomes more difficult when specialist and technical jobs are being transferred. That should inspire us to bring all our efforts to bear to make the programme work, rather than causing us to abandon the process.

I have practical experience of the decentralisation system, as I have said. While I was not directly involved as a Minister in the decentralisation of some Land Registry posts to Waterford, I remember well the arguments which were made at that time. People said that the Land Registry would not function and that the technical staff would not move. Some members of staff agreed to move and many people were recruited within the Waterford region. The Land Registry operates successfully in Waterford today.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure I have made my point. What is the point of moving bus mechanics to Mitchelstown when most Bus Éireann services operate from Dublin? It does not seem to make any sense. I am not against decentralisation — I am in favour of it if it makes sense. The Minister has said that things are looking rosier and that more people are willing to transfer. Loughrea seems to be the place to go, for some reason. When does the Minister expect the first of the agencies under the aegis of his Department to be decentralised? What agency will be the first to be moved? When will that happen?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The early movers have been identified and the details in that regard will be finalised in a report that is due in August. The Office of Public Works has made great efforts to identify and acquire sites throughout the country, often with the assistance of local authorities. I know that many sites have been identified. This issue will become clearer when the report, which will deal with a number of issues, is published in August. It has been decided that revised implementation plans have to be submitted by August. The matter is being worked on at present.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Does the report relate to the Department of Transport or to all bodies affected by the decentralisation programme?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It will have relevance throughout the system, as I understand it. I am interpreting the documentation I have read about the matter in good faith.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I will not use the term "decentralisation" because that is not what is involved in the Government's proposal. It is a complete misnomer. The Government is proposing to relocate staff on the basis of reasons which appear to be solely political. I would like to ask the Minister about the original proposal to relocate 200 Bus Éireann posts from Dublin to Mitchelstown. The plan has caused significant concern among staff, who are not prepared to contemplate such a drastic move because they and their families are settled in Dublin. We know that no member of the staff of Bus Éireann has applied for decentralisation to Mitchelstown. The Minister has said that 86 jobs in Bus Éireann are capable of being decentralised.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the company says.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why did the Government announce that 200 jobs in Bus Éireann would be relocated to Mitchelstown? Was that figure just plucked out of the air?

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Was the announcement made for political reasons? Who originally suggested that 200 Bus Éireann jobs could be shifted? Leaving aside the fact that none of Bus Éireann's employees is prepared to move and the debate on the benefits or otherwise of the decentralisation of Bus Éireann, how did the Government get it so wrong when it suggested that it was possible to transfer 200 jobs to Mitchelstown?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is right. I have stated clearly that there is a particular issue with the plan to decentralise Bus Éireann to Mitchelstown. I do not deny that. The Government has announced that it intends to move 200 jobs to Mitchelstown and it intends to see that plan through.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What was the figure of 200 based on?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I was not involved in the collation of the information at that time. I will not take the blame for it. I was not directly involved in the collation of the figure in question.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Was anything collated?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It was. Most of the figures which were specified when the Government announced that it planned to decentralise jobs to various locations throughout the country were spot on. There is a particular issue in the case of the plan to decentralise Bus Éireann posts to Mitchelstown. The company has said that just 86 posts are suitable for decentralisation. The Department has asked it to re-examine the matter. I am waiting to hear from the company again. It seems there was a miscorrelation between the question that was asked and the information that was given by the company in response.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why did the Minister ask Bus Éireann to re-examine the matter if none of its employees is prepared to move?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I want the management of Bus Éireann to be certain that it has applied correctly the criteria which were specified.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It does not matter whether the number of posts that nobody is willing to take up is 86 or 200. It makes no difference.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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We must work on the problem. I do not deny that we need to bring clarity to this matter. I would not like to colour the entire decentralisation programme on the basis of this issue.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why is the Minister continuing with the plan as it applies to Bus Éireann?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There are a couple of odd and difficult cases.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Is it not a nonsense?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It is not.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is a nonsense as it applies to Bus Éireann.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think the Labour Party's candidate in the Mitchelstown area at the next general election will speak about 86 jobs.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I ask the Minister not to bring politics into it.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not think the candidate will be thinking——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What is the rationale for suggesting that Bus Éireann can be decentralised to Mitchelstown?

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Sustainable jobs are needed in Mitchelstown.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The rationale is that——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why is the Government pursuing the proposal if no member of staff has applied to participate in it?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The simple rationale behind the proposal is that Bus Éireann is a rural-based company that operates direct routes into Dublin. For buses coming into Dublin one naturally needs a Dublin facility to deal with them, but it does not mean that one could not have a substantial number of people — almost half of the number identified — in the country, based in Mitchelstown, as opposed to having people in Dublin too. That is a reasonable position.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Is the Minister continuing to pretend to the people of Mitchelstown that Bus Éireann will move there?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am not pretending anything.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister has pretended from the start. He continues to ignore the fact that this will not happen.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am adhering to the programme. I have been fair in admitting to the issues involved, and that matters are not quite right, but I do not consider that 86 posts identified for Mitchelstown is somehow a pretence.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister is pretending that everyone will go, that this move will take place.