Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs his views on the Kennedy-McCain initiative in the United States to deal with the status of Irish emigrants to the USA; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18488/05]

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs the position of the Government with regard to the Kennedy-McCain immigration Bill; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18621/05]

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 9 together.

Since the tragic events of 11 September 2001, immigration has become a highly sensitive and divisive issue in the United States. The Bill recently published by Senators Kennedy and McCain and their colleagues, represents an important, timely and positive contribution to advancing the debate on this sensitive issue and it is warmly welcomed by the Government. Among the provisions in the Bill are proposals that would grant undocumented people an opportunity to regularise their status.

As with all legislative proposals in the US, the Kennedy-McCain initiative must be considered in detail by Congress. We can anticipate a vigorous debate in the period ahead on this and other proposed immigration measures but the clear and constructive proposals put forward by Senators Kennedy and McCain will stimulate a debate, which we hope will be fruitful and lead to a positive outcome.

The Deputies can be assured that the issues of our undocumented citizens and immigration reform have the highest priority for the Government. The Taoiseach and the Minister raised the issue of the undocumented, as well as the issue of wider immigration reform, with President Bush when they met with him on St. Patrick's Day and also on Capitol Hill at that time. President Bush re-affirmed his willingness to work with Congress on immigration reform. Our priority in the period ahead will be to lobby strongly in support of the Kennedy-McCain Bill and to encourage the White House to become involved in support of the reform process.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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When the Taoiseach met President Bush, one of the difficulties was he could not state how many undocumented or out of status Irish were in the US. As the Taoiseach stated, estimates vary. I wish the Kennedy-McCain initiative Bill well. Is the REAL ID programme not a more imminent danger to out of status Irish? Irish people will not be able to obtain a driver's licence, which will prevent them from driving to work. This programme is in place in New York. President Bush estimated the number of illegal Irish in the US at 3,000 while the Taoiseach's ball park figures ranged between 20,000 and 50,000. If the REAL ID programme is implemented, it will create deep distress for out of status Irish.

The reaction of the Minister of State's colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to immigrants entering Ireland who are out of status is not encouraging for those who would like help to be given to the illegal Irish in the US. We would like consistency. The scale of the problem is much lower in Ireland but the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's comments are appalling given that, at the same time, the Government is appealing to the US for more generosity.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not easy to arrive at an exact figure because travel options mean people can come and go from the US to Ireland and elsewhere. The UNHCR has praised Ireland's immigration policies.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform stated he regards the procedures as a burden. He made a disgraceful remark about international law; it was scandalous. He said he would like to deal with cock and bull stories of immigrants at the airport. No Minister in the civilised world has said anything like that in recent times.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that this issue should be approached in a consistent and uniform way, irrespective of whether that is in Ireland or the US.

The Deputy referred to the legislation known as REAL ID, which was signed into law in the US on 11 May. States have three years to introduce its provisions. Since the tragedy of 11 September, immigration has been a sensitive issue in the US. This Act, which was prompted in part by the report of the 9-11 Commission, establishes minimum standards for state issued driver licences and identity cards so that they can be eligible for use as federal identification. The impact of the new legislation cannot be foreseen but it could have an impact on undocumented Irish people for whom a driving licence is their main form of identity. However, we are hopeful that proposals that offer undocumented people a path to legalisation such as those brought forward by Senators Kennedy and McCain will be adopted.

Representatives of all political parties recently attended the conference on immigration in the US where the attitude of the US was made clear, as were the efforts being made by official Ireland on behalf of our people. Representations have been made at all levels, including the meetings at Dromoland Castle last autumn and the White House on 17 March. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs raise this issue at every opportunity on behalf of our people. They will continue to do so and we hope the proposed legislation will go a long way towards resolving the problems faced by our people in the US.

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I pay tribute to the people from the Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties who travelled at their own expense. As the House knows, the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs will travel on Monday, 6 June. I also pay tribute to the work done to encourage production of this legislation. I support fully the provisions of the Bill as published by Kennedy-McCain. Has the Minister of State identified the points of opposition the Bill will face due to the influx of people, mainly the large number of illegal immigrants from Mexico? Has the Government worked to address those areas of opposition? Can the Minister of State offer any advice to the committee members going out next week about what they can do to convince those conservative elements that see any such Bill as a general amnesty to all illegal immigrants?

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It was made clear to our representatives at the conference in the United States that the word "amnesty" is not one that should be used in this context. There are up to 10 million undocumented people in the United States, presenting a great difficulty for that country's Administration. Officials at our consulates and embassies around the US are maintaining close contacts with various figures in the US Administration and legislature in respect of all possible avenues towards achieving positive conclusions to immigration reform.

Increasingly, immigrants in the US originate from countries in the Americas and Asia. In these circumstances, it is difficult to see how a proposal designed to cater for Irish interests alone could gather sufficient consensus in Congress to be accepted. In this context, we must support measures for immigration reform that would benefit undocumented people in general, including the Irish. There is much good will and respect for Irish people at every level within the US. We will work together to achieve progress and are optimistic that this can be done.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister of State aware of Titles VI and VII of the legislation? Title VI promotes family unity and would reduce backlogs. Title VII would provide a mechanism by which the status of eligible undocumented immigrants in the US on the date of the Bill's introduction can be adjusted to temporary non-immigrant status. Does the Minister of State support the Bill and these two provisions in particular? In light of his earlier answer concerning the need for consistency in terms of these issues in Ireland, would he support the introduction of similar provisions to promote family unity among immigrants and to provide a mechanism whereby eligible undocumented immigrants are given the facility to adjust their status here? If the Minister of State believes in consistency, will he ensure there is some between the American Bill and what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been trying to implement?

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not understand why the Deputy would ask a question pertaining to whether I support this US Bill. I support it, as do our diplomats, ambassadors, consulates, Government and Irish Americans. We are working through all of those avenues to achieve a positive conclusion to the matter. We will leave no stone unturned in assisting the Bill's development, taking into account that this must be an inclusive Bill as otherwise it would not work. There are 10 million undocumented people in the US, which highlights the challenges, complexities and difficulties. There is no comparison between the situations here and that in the Unites States vis-À-vis our undocumented people.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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How does the Minister of State know that?

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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We have far fewer but the situation is much worse.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are speaking about a distinct situation that is unique to the US and clearly identifiable from our perspective in terms of Irish immigrants. If one were to speak with any member of the immigration staff of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform who are dealing with this matter here, one would learn about the difficulties they experience in identifying people and getting information or documentation. There is non-co-operation with their requests for information.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is a refusal of family unity.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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All of this must be taken into account. The important critical point at the end of the day is that we must deal with this matter in a systematic, consistent administrative way to ensure that fair treatment is given to each individual on the basis of meeting the required criteria.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Will the Minister of State elaborate on the proposed idea for an on-line database for illegal Irish immigrants living in the USA, to gain an accurate picture of how many such persons there are? As the Minister of State knows, the estimates vary. The US Government estimates 3,000 while we estimate between 20,000 and 50,000. What is the exact figure? Could there be potential difficulties with this idea, in that people do not wish to put forward their names because they are illegal? Is there a problem that perhaps could be solved if they remained anonymous, but then we would not get the accurate data?

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gormley's conclusion is correct. We have examined this issue in great detail. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, had a positive discussion on immigration reform with President Bush on Saint Patrick's Day and prior to that in Dromoland Castle. Following this, the Minister asked his officials to again consider ways of getting a more precise sense of the size of our undocumented population, including the possibility of setting up an on-line database for this purpose. However, the widespread view after much consultation was that our undocumented people would be unlikely to register on a database for the reasons the Deputy suggested. This is understandable and, under these circumstances, it has been decided not to go ahead with the approach.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I welcome the Kennedy-McCain Bill, which is a positive and constructive initiative. Does the Minister of State agree that it is for all parliamentarians and Members of the Dáil to support Irish immigrants? Does he accept that the Government has a brass neck in calling for support for Irish emigrants while deporting 110 immigrants from Ireland in recent months? I strongly support Deputy Michael Higgins's comments about how some of our Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's remarks were out of order and disgraceful.

Does the Minister of State accept that, as political leaders, we have a duty to lead in the immigration issue? Even if doing so loses votes, it is essential that we lead. Does he support the proposal put forward by many Deputies to extend the franchise, allowing Irish emigrants to vote in our elections? Will the Government reconsider the situation of some immigrant families in Ireland? A group of Kurds living in Marino, have family in a refugee camp in Iraq. They have been trying to get their family together for the past six months. I have been pushing their case but all sorts of doors have been slammed in my face. If the Government is serious about the immigration issue, we must accept out international obligations as a sovereign state to assist immigrants all over the world.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I asked the Minister of State an additional question about the current estimates for illegal immigrants. What is the Government's present estimate and how did it arrive at this figure?

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have a de facto figure. From our consultations with the United States, there are at least 3,000 Irish immigrants there. From other estimates made, the figure could be 20,000 and is certainly not more than 50,000. We are not sure, which is a serious difficulty. We know there has been much mobility of Irish immigrants into and out of the US through other countries, sometimes to return to Ireland and sometimes to leave again. We are not sure of the final destinations in certain cases. Hence, it is difficult to have a final figure.

In response to Deputy McGrath, it is unfair to say that the Government has a brass neck in the situation. In the 23 years that I have been in this House the elected Members have always been supportive and have assisted our people in all parts of the world, no matter what the situation. There is a unity of purpose there.

If one examines the situation last May, when new members joined the European Union, Ireland was the only country to give an absolute guarantee that anybody from an EU country could come to work here. Everybody said that was a crazy decision, that the floodgates would open——

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Nobody said that.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Many people said that.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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We supported that decision.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but many people criticised the Government for that decision.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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A small minority of people criticised it.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Minister of State should be very careful in what he says. We supported that decision. We supported the Government.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the support that existed. I am not referring to people in this House.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It was a small minority.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Government was criticised for that decision. It was consistent, open and accommodating and there has not been a crisis in that area since. When it comes to the situation pertaining to citizens of our country and citizens of the European Union, we are all one. We have that commonality, there are equal rights in that situation and we have a fundamental responsibility to ensure that where we require workers, priority is given to people in the EU.

Non-EU citizens have come here for a number of reasons. Some are economic migrants, others seek their human rights or are fleeing tragedies in their countries and so on. People have come here but we must be measured and reasonable. In a small island and open country we must ensure that we have a system that is equitable, fair, systematic, clear and properly administered and that nobody can get through the system easily and cause problems for the country. We must be very careful that we are reasoned and measured in our actions. We all have a duty, as parliamentarians, to have a unity of purpose in discharging our responsibilities and ensuring that, together, we manage what is a difficult, complex and humane situation. All of us have that serious responsibility.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, does not speak for me.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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That concludes questions for today.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I understood there were four minutes remaining.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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There are three minutes remaining. Is that correct?

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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There are two minutes remaining.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I wish to hear a reply to the question regarding the Warsaw speech.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The reply is rather long.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The reply can be brief. It was a very slight speech.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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To what question is the Deputy referring?

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I am referring to Question No. 8. It was a very slight speech so it will not take the Minister of State very long to comment on it. It is extraordinary because it is of a very low standard. I hope that I do not get someone into trouble by saying that. However, it is not up to the usual standards of Iveagh House. Perhaps the Minister for Foreign Affairs wrote it himself.