Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if, given his welcome call for new thinking on job creation and economic development in rural Ireland, he recognises the need for similar new thinking to tackle poverty and unemployment in urban and suburban centres, especially in light of ongoing job losses and the findings in the How are our Kids survey in 2005 and Do the Poor Pay More survey by the one parent exchange network in May 2005. [16805/05]

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer the Deputy to my answer to Question No. 40 of 22 February 2005.

My Department was established by Government in June 2002. When announcing the decision to establish the Department, the Taoiseach stressed the need for Government to address issues of regional and social balance in a more effective way, as well as securing economic development. He explained that my Department was being set up to produce a more co-ordinated engagement by the State with communities throughout the country as they pursue their own development.

As Minister I have responsibility for a wide range of programmes covering community and local development, drugs, volunteering, Gaeltacht, Irish language and rural development. Most of these measures, individually and collectively, focus on communities, particularly those that are vulnerable or under threat. Those communities may be in rural or inner city settings, grappling with difficulties caused by a range of factors, including declining populations, unemployment, language issues, social disadvantage or drug misuse. As well as communities which can be defined in terms of geographic location, we also support communities that are defined on the basis of a common focus on a particular issue.

The key principle underlying my Department's activities is the provision of support that enables communities to identify and address problems in their areas. Our purpose is to provide support to communities in the most appropriate way as they work to shape their futures, address their common goals and achieve their full potential.

It is this bottom up approach, where communities are empowered to develop solutions to their difficulties, that is the best source of fresh thinking to tackle such problems. As indicated in my reply of 22 February 2005, in addition to schemes specifically directed at rural and Gaeltacht areas, the programmes operated by my Department include community development programme, grants for community and voluntary sector, local development social inclusion programme, the Young Peoples Facilities and Services Fund and the RAPID programme. More than €129 million has been provided in my Department's Estimate in 2005 for these programmes. In addition, grants under the Dormant Accounts Fund Disbursements Board are available to communities experiencing disadvantage.

I accept that there is no room for complacency. We are always attempting to improve services to communities. However, the foregoing is concrete and comprehensive evidence that the Government is committed to supporting communities as they tackle the difficulties caused by disadvantage, exclusion and isolation.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I did not pose the question to pit one community against another but to find out if the Minister sees a role for similar new thinking for tackling poverty in urban and suburban areas. Does the Minister recognise the level of deprivation and poverty that is the daily reality for many urban communities? Does he recognise the need for radical new thinking to help city and suburban communities and the need for community based finance schemes above and beyond the good work done by MABS? Does he see a role for his Department in intervening to save communities from extortionate moneylenders? Does he see a role for the State in providing banking and financial services to those communities, either in conjunction with An Post or the local credit unions? Could the Minister, in conjunction with the Ministers for Finance and Social and Family Affairs, use their good offices to lobby the banking sector to accept its responsibility to provide a community banking service, which it refuses to offer at present?

The Minister sees himself as having a co-ordinating role in the community sector. This problem is one of the things that came out of the reports on the How are our Kids and Do the Poor Pay More surveys. Does the Minister agree that in common with many rural working class communities, people in city and suburban areas are facing huge challenges in dealing with the transition from the old economy activities to new ones? I can cite examples from my constituency where there has been a haemorrhage of jobs. There have been jobs losses in Gallahers, Coke, APW, Packard and so forth. The unemployment rate is higher than the national average. Many locally based manufacturing and electronics jobs are becoming part of history rather than providing secure employment.

Does the Minister accept that there is a need for new thinking? Is there a role for his Department and other Departments to come together to examine the banking issue? Moneylenders are putting people to the wall. Everybody accepts there is a problem in this regard but no solutions are being put forward. There is a role for the State in providing small loans these people cannot get otherwise. Will the Department examine this in conjunction with other Departments?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has raised a major issue. It is amazing how people can be given a certain colouring by popular perception. Many people perceive me as being essentially rural and rurally biased. However, all my formative years were spent in Dublin. When asked where the greatest crisis is, in terms of community, lifestyle and planning, I have said time and again that it is in the cities. Last night, when I met the Council for the West, I agreed that there are unquestionably problems in the west but I also asked if the council knew many people from the rural west who, of their free volition, would move tomorrow to live in one of the RAPID areas. I mean no disrespect to the people in those areas but disadvantages would accrue. When I challenge people on that point, and I have said this in meetings throughout the country, they will immediately accept it. One of the reasons that rural Ireland is worth fighting for is that it is a great place to live if one is lucky enough to have a job.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must proceed to the next question.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The issues the Deputy raised are central. What is the nature of the problem? It is curious that the RAPID areas in this city are largely located cheek by jowl with the areas of the greatest opportunities in both education and employment anywhere in the country. The problem is not jobs per se as we would have understood it 30 years ago. People are coming from all over the country to take up jobs in Dublin. The big challenge is education and the educational attainments of people in RAPID areas, which are a good definition of the most deprived communities. These can range as low as 2% to 3% of the population getting a third level education. Creating all these fantastic jobs is no good because these people cannot get them. They cannot get through that gate, the gate being education, skills and training.

Life is full of dilemmas. How is it that in these areas of huge population near the universities and jobs only 2% to 3% of the population, and in some cases it is as low as 1%, get a third level education? Then there are places in other parts of the country, far from third level facilities, where 60% to 70% of the population get a third level education. The situation is full of ironies. That is the challenge. I have always believed that educational attainment is one of the keys to solving the problems discussed by the Deputy.

One must then ask why these people do not get the education. Is it due to bad schools? That is when one realises that there are family, lifestyle and social segregation issues, partly and largely due to bad planning whereby society was socially segregated, which has a huge effect on educational attainments.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must move to the next question. We are over the time.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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With your indulgence, I wish to address the money issue. There are a number of issues for people who have problems with money. Shortage of money is one. Lack of knowledge of how to deal with debt is another, in addition to a lack of knowledge of the law if one is in debt. People succumb to pressure because they do not know how to handle debt or do not know their rights. Advice and services such as MABS are incredibly important. Some people run out of money to maintain their gas and electricity supplies and we must deal with that problem.

It is a cross-departmental issue. That is the reason we have made all this investment in community development projects, partnerships and so forth. They can get through to the people in the communities. There is a huge role for the credit unions here. It is the people's bank. It is in the community and owned by the community. They cannot simply give the money away but they have a role in social banking. They have already played a huge role but we must examine new ways of dealing with that problem. It is a frightening problem for people who are in debt to moneylenders and others.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if he has satisfied himself that the CLÁR funding programme is sufficient to meet the needs of disadvantaged rural communities; if he will consider alternative criteria in deciding the allocation of CLÁR funding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16806/05]

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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CLÁR funds or co-funds, together with other Departments, State agencies and local authorities, invest in selected priority developments. These investments support physical, economic and social infrastructure across a wide range of measures and reflect the priorities identified by the communities in the selected areas, whom I consulted at the start of the programme.

Expenditure under the CLÁR programme amounted to €14.14 million in 2002, €8.613 million in 2003 and €12.116 million in 2004 which, it is estimated, leveraged out a further €36.5 million in related public and private expenditure in those three years. The estimate for 2005 is €13.7 million, an increase of more than 13% on the 2004 outturn. As a result, I expect that, once again, a comprehensive work programme will be completed in 2005 and I am satisfied that CLÁR is making a sustained and strong positive contribution to rural communities.

In general, no specific allocations are made to the CLÁR areas of counties from each year's Estimates provision for the programme. Some measures are demand led while in other cases the projects are, by and large, selected or recommended by the relevant Departments, State agencies, Leader groups and local authorities in consultation with my Department. However, under the non-national roads measure, allocations are made to each local authority based on the county's percentage of the total CLÁR population.

This approach ensures both efficiency and effectiveness in delivering the programme and meets the needs of the people in the CLÁR areas. I intend to continue these procedures for any new measures I may introduce, depending on the needs identified. Equally, I will keep under review the operation of existing measures. The CLÁR programme vividly demonstrates that relatively small amounts of public funding, specifically targeted, can have a profound and positive impact in disadvantaged rural areas.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Is it correct that most of the CLÁR areas were selected on the basis of population decline between 1926 and 1996, which was probably the last year for which census figures were available prior to the launch of the programme in 2001? Does the Minister agree many other rural areas that may not have experienced sustained population decline since 1926 are equally disadvantaged? As a result of job losses and other economic difficulties, a number of areas in my constituency should be as entitled to CLÁR funding as areas included in the programme. Will the Minister consider extending the qualifying criteria for the programme to include such areas? What is the future of the programme? Can the Minister guarantee this worthwhile scheme will continue? I have only one criticism: 'Sé an locht an laghad'.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The figures were adjusted on the basis of the 2002 census and significant additions were made to the programme. I am happy that, within the criteria laid down, no other areas are eligible and I have examined this issue thoroughly.

The Deputy has touched on the nub of the matter. I am delighted there is demand to expand the CLÁR areas because that signifies the programme has delivered. It has dealt with the micro-infrastructure, which is very important but which is often overlooked. There is no point providing a main water pipe if it is not connected to a house down a little boreen; there is no point building a motorway if the boreen to the house is not connected to it and there is no point in providing major sewerage systems in large cities and towns if little villages are not provided with similar schemes. Similarly, there is no point providing massive community facilities in large towns if small communities with which the Deputy and myself are familiar do not have them.

CLÁR was intended to deal with minor issues in small towns and villages while taking into account the lack of critical mass that often bedevils the provision of facilities in small rural areas. I would love to expand CLÁR but there would be no point in doing so unless I had the funds to sustain the programme. Governments were enthusiastic about successful programmes in the past and expanded them but the butter got so thin on the bread that it could not be seen anymore. An appreciable difference can be made through the funding of €13 million which assists approximately 350,000 people in the CLÁR areas. However, if the programme was expanded to cover 500,000 people, a pro rata increase in the budget would have to be provided. We must be realistic in this regard.

It would be ideal if we could cover all of rural Ireland outside the periurban areas. Such areas are more urban than rural even though grass still grows in them. However, the issue boils down to resources. My primary obligation is to make the programme work and I am doing so. I am examining new measures because the goalposts keep moving. I am happy that many houses have become part of group water schemes. These schemes in rural areas were expensive but the people involved would never have had access to water if we had not introduced the schemes.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I attended a meeting at Convoy, County Donegal, last Monday about a proposed group water scheme in the area. The contribution per participant is €3,500. An area such as this would benefit greatly from inclusion in the CLÁR programme. Does the Minister hold out hope for small communities, particularly those in farming areas, in east Donegal?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There are two fundamentals in life, water and a decent road. No rural Deputy would argue with that thesis but the challenge is how we get to that. I acknowledge the Deputy's comments. I will keep in mind areas such as those mentioned by him in my discussions with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs his proposals to assist in having public service jobs provided in rural areas, the economies of rural areas strengthened in rural areas, the strengthening of small indigenous enterprises in rural areas, the developments of small niche food enterprises in rural areas and the augmenting of incomes of low earning workers in remote rural areas; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16731/05]

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer the Deputy to my reply to Question No. 123 of 9 November 2004, in which I stated I had undertaken a wide range of initiatives in support of rural economies, including the establishment and expansion of the CLÁR programme; establishment of the rural social scheme; small food producers forum and co-ordinator; Comhairle na Tuaithe; and a review of enterprise supporting rural areas. The establishment of the CLÁR programme has enabled me to support physical, economic and social infrastructure across a wide range of measures and has the potential to create additional jobs through improved productivity and delivery of services.

The rural social scheme established in 2004 provides for improved rural services directly while ensuring an income and employment support for farmers who can no longer make a viable living on the land, within a working arrangement compatible with farming. This scheme was designed specifically for farm families and its operations and structures are operated in a farmer-friendly manner. It recognises that farmers have a wealth of experience and talents, which need to be preserved for future generations, and these talents are being harnessed for the good of the community. The scheme focuses on the provision of direct services in the community.

My Department has also funded the appointment of a small food producers co-ordinator to work, under the aegis of Comhar Leader na hÉireann, with artisan and traditional food producers. This initiative is aimed at identifying barriers inhibiting small food producers, ranging from the scale of the enterprise, access to funding and distribution, marketing and promotion as well as the provision of skills and training and the regulatory environment.

I established Comhairle na Tuaithe in February 2004. It includes representatives of farmer, recreational users, tourism marketing bodies and other interested groups. Comhairle na Tuaithe works on conflict resolution in regard access to the countryside, the development of a countryside code and a countryside recreation strategy.

In conjunction with the Ministers for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Arts, Sport and Tourism, I initiated a review of enterprise support in rural areas. My Department, in conjunction with the two other Departments, is examining the recommendations of the consultant's report. In further support of rural areas, my Department continues to oversee the delivery of a number of programmes. These comprise the Leader programme; rural development fund; PEACE II programme; rural initiative measure of INTERREG; and farm relief services.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

Under the Leader+ and area-based rural development initiatives, my Department provides almost €150 million in funding for the implementation of agreed business plans for the development of all rural areas between 2000 and 2006. These initiatives include the provision of important support to indigenous rural enterprises and small food producers in strengthening and developing their capacity.

I also support a number of pilot projects from my Department's rural development fund to regenerate particularly disadvantaged rural areas through a variety of community initiatives. The cross-Border rural development measures of the PEACE II programme aim to promote agriculture and rural development co-operation in the Border area. The rural initiative measure of the INTERREG Ireland-Northern Ireland programme is aimed at encouraging rural businesses and communities to engage in the development of their area.

My Department also provides funding to the farm relief services measure of the national development plan. The funding is primarily aimed at training of farm relief operatives and staff with smaller elements for infrastructure and research and development. In addition, the Government programme of decentralisation will promote regional balance and will result in the relocation of a wide range of Departments in whole or in part and a significant number of high quality jobs to areas outside Dublin. My Department will relocate to Knock Airport and na Forbacha.

EU proposals on the future of rural development should provide further opportunities, post-2006, to strengthen and develop the capacity of rural areas.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I tabled the question because I read recently about a survey conducted in the Minister's county regarding how it had reacted to changes in the economy and agriculture in particular. It was alarming that the majority of farms generated less than €10,000 per annum except in the Clarinbridge area where the figure was higher. The majority of men in the county are unskilled whereas women are more involved in professions such as nursing and teaching. Is it not important that there is an upskilling of the male population in these areas because, according to the survey, approximately half the farms are passing on to an heir? There are fundamental structural problems. While the working population in these areas has increased, which is to be welcomed, the imbalance in the range of skills vis-À-vis gender is an important issue that must be addressed.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the points made by the Deputy regarding the survey, which was very interesting and comprehensive. One important finding was that over 90% of those surveyed said that they were happy in the place where they lived. That was great news and it mirrored the impression I got when I toured those areas and spoke to people.

The surveyors were clever in that they selected an area in the Connemara Gaeltacht, Clarinbridge, which is partly urban. They then selected Glinsk, which is a very strong farming area. The final area surveyed was in the south of the county, around Laurencetown, if my memory serves me correctly. The aim was to survey a mix of areas — strong farming areas, poor farm and fishing areas in the Gaeltacht and partly urban areas.

The survey produced some very interesting information. There were no complaints, for example, in Gorumna about the roads and while I do not think the situation is perfect, the Gaeltacht road strategy has paid dividends. However, there were many complaints about health services in that area. It is also the area with the highest number of people who want their own children to settle there, which is a great indicator of how happy people are. It was a very interesting study.

Deputy O'Shea is correct in his comments about the imbalance in educational skills. In rural Ireland in the past, those who received an education moved on and moved out of an area, while those who were not educated stayed on to farm the family land, which poses challenges for us today. We must recognise that people aged 50 or 55 are not likely to train or enter the conventional education system to get a fancy job in an electronics or software company. However, many of them have a wealth of skills and under the rural social scheme we have been working to develop those indigenous skills. We should never dismiss skills. The revival of interest in the skill of dry stone walling, as well as the amount of money that people are willing to pay for it, is incredible. Such a skill cannot be acquired at university, it exists among the rural community who have practised it and handed it on from generation to generation. There are different types of skills and we should not dismiss those of older farmers, acquired through traditional activities.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Dry stone walling is also experiencing a revival in the Kerry Gaeltacht and the work is excellent.

Improvements in services are being sought and problems with health services in particular, must be addressed. One of the conclusions of the survey puzzled me, namely, the suggestion that commuting has both positive and negative effects on areas.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When an area grows by virtue of an expansion of its commuting population, social capital can be reduced. This is because many new people arrive who have no connection with the area. They leave at 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. to go to work, put their children in a crèche and do not arrive home until late in the evening, by which time they are tired, hungry and stressed. They feed their families, do their household chores, fall into bed and then get up the following day to repeat the cycle.

One of the challenges for our society is that, while we are better off economically, there has been a social capital cost attached to the increase in wealth. Our final measure of should be quality of life. Sometimes we talk too much about the economy and too little about creating for our people the best——

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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It is the Minister's Government that talks too much about the economy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Quality of life is the ultimate measure for me.