Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 62: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the steps he took prior to 30 March 2005 to bring an end to the activities of gangs which have been robbing security vans and ATMs over the past 12 months; the directions he has given to the Garda Commissioner in this regard; the resources which he allocated for this purpose alone; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11198/05]

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 63: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress which has been made in the Garda investigation into two robberies of security vans in Dublin during March 2005 in which more than €4 million was taken; the total amount taken in raids on security vans during 2002, 2003, 2004 and to date in 2005; the number of such cases in which charges have been laid; if he is satisfied that the Garda has sufficient resources to deal with this plague of robberies and to bring those responsible to justice; the matters discussed at his meeting with representatives of the security industry on 31 March 2005; the reason he has opted to give the security industry four months to improve security rather than implement the powers to set standards under the Private Security Services Act 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10942/05]

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 62 and 63 together.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that the robberies referred to by the Deputies are the subject of ongoing investigations. I understand the Garda authorities have set up an incident room at Santry Garda station to investigate the two robberies of security vans in Dublin during the month of March and an extensive investigation is under way.

The available information regarding the total amount taken in raids on security vans and the number of such cases in which charges have been laid relates to 2004 and 2005 to date. With regard to 2004, approximately €3.4 million was taken in raids on security vans. Six people are before the courts in relation to these raids. I am further informed that since the beginning of 2005 approximately €5 million has been taken in raids on security vans and that three people are before the courts charged in relation to these raids.

In regard to action taken before the recent robberies, as the Deputies are probably aware, Operation Delivery was initiated in June 2004 in direct response to the increase in robberies of cash in transit in the Dublin area. The operation is under the control of a detective superintendent in the national bureau of criminal investigation. Among the activities undertaken are profiling and targeting of suspects; searching of premises associated with suspects; disruption of activities of suspects; surveillance of suspects; liaising with cash in transit companies; and intelligence gathering and analysis.

Operations have resulted in the arrest and charging of a number of suspects and the recovery of a number of firearms. The numbers of robberies of cash in transit have continued to decrease since the operation was established in June 2004. In the first three months of 2004 there were 12 robberies involving security vans compared with seven in the first three months of this year. While this represents a decrease of 40% in incidents, as Deputies will be quick to point out, there was an increase in the amount of cash taken quarter on quarter.

I am assured by the commissioner that the necessary resources are being directed towards the containment and detection of such serious criminal activity. On Thursday, 31 March, following the armed robbery of a Brinks Allied security van early on 30 March at Artane when approximately €1.9 million was stolen, I met representatives of the main banks, An Post, the Central Bank and the major cash in transit service providers. I was accompanied by the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, and the chief executive of the Private Security Authority, Ms Geraldine Larkin.

Many of the participants at the meeting, who are central to the movement of currency in the State, have been meeting as a forum since November 2004. The terms of reference of the forum are to co-ordinate the sharing and gathering of information on the security of delivery and collection of cash to bank branches and ATMs; identify strategic issues and promote best practice for the transmission and storage of cash; and develop an agreed code of practice.

At the meeting, I emphasised the massive social implications of these robberies when millions of euro find their way into the hands of organised crime gangs. Such robberies threaten the integrity and security of civil society. I informed the participants that the Government must ensure that proper procedures and standards are in place to combat the threat to security employees, their families and the public and that measures would have to be taken to ensure that the highest standards would be established and adhered to in cash escorts and cash holding centres.

I indicated my preference for voluntary agreement on a code of practice that would see the industry operating to the highest international standards. The forum has been considering such a draft code of practice since November 2004. If such agreement on a code of practice cannot be adopted voluntarily within the next 120 days, I indicated that I would have no choice but to regulate to ensure that standards are raised. However, my preference remains that key players acting in partnership voluntarily agree to act in the interests of their industry, their employees and the public. Agreement, if and when achieved, will represent the first time that the main stakeholders have committed themselves to operating to agreed standards of procedure and equipment.

In tandem with this, the Private Security Authority has a statutory responsibility to license companies operating in this area. The authority has decided to commence work on the development of a national standard in parallel with the work of the forum. The standard will form the basis of statutory licensing of cash in transit companies. As the authority is independent, I do not want to prejudge its deliberations on this matter. However, I would hope that if the voluntary code of practice is of a sufficiently high standard and concluded within the timeframe of the authority's work, it could form the basis of the national standard that would be required for the issuance of a licence. My officials are closely monitoring the 120-day period and activity in the area.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I compliment the off-duty garda who foiled an armed robbery within the past 24 hours. While I do not have his name, we should acknowledge the exemplary courage shown on this occasion and I hope he is recovering from his injuries.

It is easy for us to criticise the Minister and we have many grounds for doing so. I point to the substantial number of robberies when compared with 1998, the first year in office of the previous Government, when for the entire year only 61 armed robberies took place. Is the Minister not alarmed at the large number of robberies? Even in the figures he published yesterday, robberies from the establishment or the institutions or robberies of cash and goods in transit number 370 in the first quarter alone as opposed to 61 armed robberies in 1998, the first year of the previous Government. Figures reported indicate that 17 gangs are involved. How many gangs are involved in these robberies, including the IRA and related gangs?

What steps are being taken to address the problem? The Minister referred to Operation Delivery and the first quarter reflected a reduction from 21 to 12 in robberies of goods in transit. On the other hand, the number of robberies of institutions increased significantly, from 282 to 358. Would it be helpful to adopt a process initiated in Canada and change the law to criminalise gangs and make it an offence to be a gang member? If so, what are the Minister's proposals in this regard?

On a technical level, are security vans equipped with global positioning systems, GPS, and if so, why is it difficult to track them? I understand there has never been a robbery of goods in transport accompanied by a military escort? Who makes decisions on escorts? Why do the military and Garda Síochána not provide greater cover? If there is to be a concerted effort to end this type of armed robbery, surely action is necessary on all the areas I have raised, notwithstanding the general requirement to allocate more manpower and technological resources to the Garda Síochána, which I do not propose to address in detail at this stage.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should do his job.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will deal first with the Deputy's final point regarding escorts. The Garda provides a considerable number of non-military escorts in any given week. More than 600 movements of cash are escorted by gardaí so it is not the case that one must see a jeep and Garda cars travelling beside a vehicle to conclude that an escort is in operation. Many cash transits are escorted with little public profile. For obvious reasons, I do not wish to address in detail the criteria for escorting cash but they are worked out in consultation with the security industry and its chief customers.

The Deputy asked if I am alarmed by recent events. Most certainly I am alarmed and I have made it clear to the industry that if it does not get its act together, I will do so for it and impose from the outside standards with which it must comply.

The Deputy asked about global positioning systems. Some of the participants have GPS in their vehicles while others do not, which is a clear case of underinvestment. Some of the participants use much more sophisticated vans for some transactions than for others and, again, there is major room for investment in this regard. As the Deputy can well imagine, there is also room for using proper strong boxes, perhaps carrying independent GPS, with a capacity to destroy the contents if they are interfered with and of such a design that the transit staff cannot, under any circumstances, either under duress or otherwise, open them and with codes provided only to the recipients upon delivery. There are many other technical standards which could be introduced.

I explained to the security industry and I am happy to state now that I am unwilling to have the banks drive a race to the bottom in terms of standards. Security company employees are entitled to a decent wage rather than the bare minimum, decent conditions of work and equipment of the kind I described, which would safeguard them. The banks in question must face up to the fact that they must pay for additional standards. I will not tolerate a race to the bottom on standards when the result would be that society will be impoverished and anti-social elements enriched. I made this so clear I was perhaps unusually blunt.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should have done so two years ago.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Why is he only doing so now when he has been in office for three years?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will conclude to allow the Deputy to speak. I wanted to get across the message that the industry has had a forum in place for some time and that, from what I gather——

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has been too busy sending snatch squads into schools.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption, please. The 12 minutes allotted for these questions have already been used by the Minister and Deputy Jim O'Keeffe. As Deputy Costello has yet to speak, I ask the Minister to be brief.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Why is he only moving now?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not only moving now. As I told the Deputy, but he did not listen, a forum was convened by the Garda in 2004. I told him exactly what happened, including the failures. He knows full well what happened last month when I called in representatives of the industry. It is not a matter of me only acting now. Operation Delivery has been in operation and has had success since June 2004.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should focus on his job.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We need more than bluff and bluster from the Minister on this issue. We have heard a great deal of it in the House and on the media and perhaps we can now get some facts. The Minister had no difficulty identifying the culprits in a recent major bank robbery in Northern Ireland. In addition, in reply to a question from the media on what he intended to do about this issue he stated he would revoke the licences of the security industry. Suddenly, however, he realised the security companies did not have licences because he had not licensed them as he did not enact legislation in sufficient time to do so. What is the current position?

The Minister cannot allow any sector of the security industry to be self-regulatory now that legislation is in place and the Private Security Authority has been established. He cannot give the industry four months to get its house in order. The legislation prescribes and mandates that the Private Security Authority, established under law, provides standards and training——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy must ask a question.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——for all sectors of the security industry and that statutory guidelines must be introduced with the consent of the Minister. Has this been done? Is the reason he is allowing the industry four months that he has not got around to doing this?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As the Deputy is aware, last year I asked him and Deputy Jim O'Keeffe to assist me in pushing the private security services legislation through the Houses to ensure it would take effect. The Private Security Authority is independent and decides its own rate of progress. As the Deputy is aware, it does not take direction from me on this matter. It is not true that I ever suggested I would revoke anybody's licence.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It was widely reported in the media.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy asked whether I am in a position to identify the culprits in a robbery, as I had been with regard to another robbery. While I am not in a position at this stage to reveal to the House the state of Garda investigations, they are well advanced on one of the robberies and good progress is being made on the more recent robbery. It would be wrong of me to satisfy the Deputy's desire for facts and figures by putting into the public domain the names of suspects in these operations.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How many gangs are there?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are a number of them.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a question of a fact, as there is no self-regulation——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have spent 15 minutes on these questions and must conclude.