Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Question 69: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position with regard to plans to construct a new prison at Thornton Hall, County Dublin; if a contract has been signed for the purchase of the site; the estimated cost of the project; when he expects construction to begin; when he expects the project to be completed; if his Department or the Prison Service has met local residents to hear their concerns; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10777/05]

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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A contract has been signed for the purchase of the site and plans are being formulated regarding the development of the site. These will be made available in conjunction with the statutory planning process. In accordance with the Department of Finance regulations, the Prison Service is preparing a business case regarding the development for submission to the Government. It is intended that construction of the prison development will commence in late 2006. The cost of the project will be determined following a procurement process in line with EU directives and public procurement guidelines. It would be inappropriate for me to give an indication in regard to costs at this stage as this would be commercially sensitive information which might affect the tendering process. One meeting has been held between officials of the Prison Service and a group of representatives from the local primary school. There will be a process of consultation with the local community as soon as outline plans for the new development are drawn up.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That is not quite what the Minister told us the last time I tabled a question on this matter. He told me he was agreeable to meet the residents but that they had not taken him up on his offer. He now tells me that officials met representatives of a local primary school and that some time in the future there might be a meeting with the local community. Is it not a fact that the Minister has refused to meet the local residents' association and the local community which is questioning the approach he is taking in regard to many aspects of this development? Will the Minister meet the local community?

What is his response to Dublin City Council when one considers that some months ago, when he brought forward the proposal to close Mountjoy Prison, he had a notice posted on the gate of the prison stating that no official of the city council should be allowed past the portals to conduct any survey of the features of the prison? Will that notice be shredded given that the Office of Public Works made a submission on behalf of the Minister and that Dublin City Council rejected it out of hand, and that it has every intention of examining the architectural, historical, cultural and heritage aspects of the prison with a view to seeing what needs to be preserved? Can I take it the Minister will co-operate with the legal planning authority and the local authority?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy can be totally assured I will comply with my legal obligations. It should go on the record that the Deputy is pursuing his own policy which is to keep Mountjoy where it is.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Will the Minister answer the question? I ask him not to mind my policy. Let us hear about his policy.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Will the Deputy please stop interrupting me? I am answering his question. It should be clearly understood that we are hearing that Mountjoy Prison is a heritage site and that the Deputy wants to keep it as it is. I am not prepared to have modern penology and the rehabilitation of prisoners carried out in a museum. If the Deputy has some ulterior motive to keep Mountjoy Prison in its present location and to make bogus arguments about retaining it as a campus, I do not accept them. Mountjoy is not suitable as a major prison and must be replaced. That view is supported by the governor, Mr. Lonergan, and by every independent person who has toured the prison. There is no reason to rebuild on the site because, as I indicated in an earlier reply to the Deputy, it would cost over €400 million to rebuild a prison on the Mountjoy site. Even in that context, the biggest prison in Ireland would be unusable for a major portion of the construction period. I am not going down that road.

I want to make it clear to everyone who will listen that I am going ahead with the relocation of Mountjoy Prison from a city centre site to a site on the outskirts of Dublin and I have purchased a site for that purpose. The intention is that there will be recreational spaces, open spaces, decent buildings and decent facilities for the prison officers to work and the prisoners to exist.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That is the reason the Minister closed down three prisons.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I intend to develop a campus in north county Dublin for the purpose and I intend not to be deflected by people who produce notions of fairy ring forts in north county Dublin or architectural details of interest in city centre Dublin. I will not be deflected by all this guff. The people of Ireland deserve that prisoners in Mountjoy should be imprisoned in humane circumstances. We must have drug free prisons. We cannot have a situation where drugs are catapulted over the walls. We must have circumstances where prisoners, especially the younger prisoners, can play a little football. Humane facilities will have to be available. The constant campaign to derail the relocation of Mountjoy will not succeed.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I wish to ask a brief supplementary question. I asked two questions and the Minister had a side-swipe at one in regard to Dublin City Council. Will he allow the officials into Mountjoy Prison given that he refused to allow them in previously? My second question was whether he would meet the residents of Thornton Hall area. On the last occasion the Minister told me that an offer was made but that they refused to accept it. Will the Minister meet them?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I will explain the position. My Department offered to meet the residents but they did not take up that offer.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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No.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Since then we have had two letters, one from a firm of solicitors, whose services have since been disposed of, and another from a different firm of solicitors clearly making it obvious to my Department that the residents envisage the commencement of a legal action to restrain the building of the prison at Thornton Hall. I will not have a meeting if its purpose is to dredge for information to sustain a legal action to frustrate the project. I want to make that clear.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Will the Minister answer the question?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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When proposals are sufficiently developed to consult local residents I will certainly ensure they are consulted and that their viewpoint is listened to in regard to the construction of a prison on that site.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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My main interest is in safeguarding the taxpayer. I have raised the issue of the €26 million wasted on the purchase of a site when it should have been acquired for approximately €4 million. Has the Minister taken lightly the local heritage report? Has he considered the possibility that an architectural conservation area order may be made by Fingal County Council? My understanding is that most members of the council are in favour of making such an order. Will the Minister accept it could have a serious impact on his plans if such an order is made? It is obvious he has not read the report. I am aware of the report but I have not read it in detail. If the site has, say, architectural significance of the order of the Céide Fields would that change the position? Would it mean the Minister would be left with a bad bargain on behalf of the taxpayer?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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This site does not have the architectural significance of the Céide Fields.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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How does the Minister know? Has he read the report?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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It is remarkable that the opponents of the removal of Mountjoy Prison from a city centre location, which is grotesquely over-crowded and unsuitable, including the members of Dublin City Council, to whom Deputy Costello is well connected, have argued that it should be kept in its present location because they want to make it a conservation area in Dublin.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time for questions has concluded.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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There is huge opposition to any change in Ireland. I am fascinated by the fact that it all ends up as a heritage argument for leaving it in its present location and for not putting it anywhere else.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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There will be other chapters on this matter.