Dáil debates
Wednesday, 2 March 2005
Leaders' Questions.
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will recall the sense of outrage that existed at the revelation that the Government proposed to grant early release to the killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. I welcome the Taoiseach's announcement that such a deal is off the table and that these persons will serve their full time as handed down by the courts. The Taoiseach will also recall that this crime consisted of the brutal slaying of a Garda on duty for his country, which is a capital offence. In this case, it was reduced to a lesser charge due to intimidation. We have all heard the frequent calls for temporary release of those prisoners involved. From media reports of the report of the inspector of prisons, I understand the killers involved occupy a separate area of the prison compound at Castlerea known as the Grove. The information contained in the inspector's report is very clear that these prisoners appear to operate a veto on the integration process among all prisoners in that prison. Can the Taoiseach confirm if this is the case? When the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform responded in July 2004 to a question by Deputy O'Keeffe, he indicated that he had neither disimproved nor improved the regime, but that he had inherited it. What is the position regarding the activities of the McCabe killers in the running of this prison, including the concern that they are operating a veto? The report of the inspector is very clear that the policy of integration in Unit A is not working, as the provisional IRA prisoners are effectively using a veto over the duties assigned to working prisoners in the Grove. This includes objecting to prisoners serving sentences for sex offences or drugs working in the kitchen or on grounds near the houses they occupy. I have already raised the issue of photographs being taken and the sale of goods abroad with the names of these prisoners thereon. Can the Taoiseach explain the relevance of the newspaper reports today?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have made my position clear on the prisoners who were involved in the murder of Jerry McCabe and the wounding of Ben O'Sullivan. There has been no change on this in the last six years. In 1999, the Provisional IRA prisoners were moved to the Grove area of Castlerea. It is an open prison, although it is not in any way luxurious. The procedures there are obviously less strict than elsewhere. In all prisons, including Castlerea, it is a matter for the governor to determine the duties of the trustees and how that is handled. I have no news of any change in this. I have heard of reports and I have tried to check on them, but I have been told that it is entirely inaccurate to say that these prisoners are in control of the prison. The murderers of Garda Jerry McCabe are in prison and they will remain there for the duration of their sentences. I have received no information from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, or from the governor of the prison, that the circumstances have changed since 1999.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the Taoiseach has been down there or not. There is a 20 foot wall around Castlerea prison and it is a secure facility. This matter was the first item on the agenda in all the discussions that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform had with Sinn Féin representatives. Was the operation of the prison regime regarding these four prisoners ever discussed at any of those meetings? Can the Taoiseach confirm newspaper reports that the killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe faxed their requirements to the local shop, which were then delivered by taxi? If the prisoners are exercising a veto over the integration of all prisoners in that complex, has the Taoiseach considered that they should be returned to Portlaoise? What is his response to a remark made by a county councillor in Cavan last night that there would be no decommissioning by the IRA until these prisoners are released?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The prison is secure but the regime is that of an open prison. Since 1970, the prisoners in Portlaoise got different treatment because of their structures. When the prisoners were moved to Castlerea, they continued to receive different treatment. I do not know about the operations regarding their food and so on, but I am told that——
Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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The Chinese take-aways are doing well at any rate.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They should be getting more traditional food.
Pádraic McCormack
Bernard AllenBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am told that it is not a situation of luxury. It is entirely inaccurate to describe the prisoners as being in control of the prison. The governor makes the operational decisions that he believes are necessary. The only matter discussed with the Sinn Féin leadership was in regard to the release of the prisoners. That was the only issue that concerned them.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It appears that dozens of child care centres nationally are at risk as a result of the communication on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform under the equal opportunities child care programme. Staffing grants for child care facilities are to be reviewed after 31 August. I draw the Taoiseach's attention especially to the statement in the communication that the Department wishes the services to be sustainable with effect from 1 September 2005 through a fair and equitable fee structure. In other words, the Department intends that with the exception of those in what it calls "gravely disadvantaged areas", a definition the meaning of which is unknown, the grants made available to community-based, not-for-profit child care facilities will be terminated and their sponsors directed to charge economic fees.
Does the Taoiseach know what the imposition of economic fees for child care will mean for parents on middle and lower incomes? Many families on middle incomes pay as much and in some cases more on child care than they do in mortgage repayments. The Taoiseach must know from being out and about at present that people living in the commuter belts around the city find it extremely difficult to source child care facilities and that where they can, fees sometimes exceed mortgage repayments. The little the Government is doing to address child care provision it now proposes to partially discontinue thereby putting dozens of child care centres at risk.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is certainly not what the Government is doing. Our policy is to respond to child care needs by increasing the availability of child care places through the implementation of the national child care strategy in the equal opportunities child care programmes. We also assist parents with the cost of caring for their children through the provision of significantly increased child benefit which supports all parents irrespective of economic status throughout the childhood of their offspring.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The Government has no idea of the cost.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The decision was made some years ago that the provision of child benefit in this manner was the fairest approach to take. The equal opportunities child care programme was funded as a key element of the national economic development plan to increase the supply of centre-based child care places by 50% to 28,300.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a bureaucratic nightmare. Community representatives cannot even fill in the forms as they are so difficult.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption, please.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Funds have been committed to facilitate the creation of 33,000 new places. There are no plans to close centres. We are endeavouring to extend them under the equal opportunities programme.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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None of the places in question existed a few years ago. They are all new.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is Alice in Wonderland stuff.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was no system or order in the provision of child care places. Funding for the equal opportunities programme has increased from an original package of €318 million to €499 million. It is not the Government's policy to reduce places or close centres, it is, rather, to create more places.
Breeda Moynihan-Cronin (Kerry South, Labour)
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What about the staffing grants?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach has no familiarity with the issue. The Government is not aiding child care through what the Taoiseach called "equal opportunities child care programmes" as there is only one programme, the staffing grants of which he proposes to cut. By falling back on an argument about child benefit, the Taoiseach showed he has no knowledge of the cost of child care. Does the Taoiseach know the average cost of child care in this city and its surrounding areas is €150 per child per week and it is very little different in the rest of the country? In the Book of Estimates for 2005, the Government has frozen the provision for child care.
While there is no commitment to child care in the programme for Government, the Progressive Democrats promised in its manifesto to provide 40,000 additional child care places. Through its Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the party is actually cutting the number of places which exist. It is a further example of the sort of spin we saw in relation to medical cards. The Progressive Democrats promised 40,000 additional places, but is cutting the number that are there. I cannot for the life of me understand why child care is the responsibility of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I cannot see it being a priority for the Minister. The communication the Department has issued puts at risk dozens of child care facilities, such as they are, around the country.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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To repeat a number of points——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption, please.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to answer Deputy Rabbitte's questions, not those of his backbenchers. Expenditure on child benefit has increased four fold to assist people with children. I understand its purpose very well. Expenditure has increased from €500 million to €2 billion and it benefits everybody regardless of circumstances. Child care places have been increased by over 50%. When the approved additional resources are implemented, 33,000 places will be provided. Deputy Rabbitte is only wrong on one fact, which is that child care is far more expensive than he states. For one child the cost is from €800 to €900 per month, including in Kildare and Meath as he will have heard.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was acknowledged in numerous reports that the fairest approach with the best socio-economic impact was to provide child benefit to everyone regardless of income. There are still significant difficulties for young families, especially those with mortgages, whether they are in the commuter belt or not.
Breeda Moynihan-Cronin (Kerry South, Labour)
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Why is the Government cutting the staffing grants then?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The issue has already been identified as one to be dealt with in the next round of negotiations with the social partners. We should avoid glib comments to the effect that an increase from €500 million of taxpayers' money to €2 billion is nothing.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should answer the question.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I note in today's newspapers the penitential experience of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, who was stuck at the Blanchardstown by-pass. He has my sympathies.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Did he pay his toll?
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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For this relief, much thanks.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow Deputy Sargent to speak without interruption.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Is it not clear that the rail line to Navan is overdue and must be constructed? The line should be built all the way to Navan rather than provided on a phased basis to Dunboyne. Will the Taoiseach act on the promise to construct the line? Fianna Fáil was elected in 2002 on the basis of a manifesto which promised the provision of new regional and commuter routes including a Dublin-Navan rail line.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The manifesto referred to a Dublin-Navan line. It should be provided on the basis of the prioritisation of the reinstatement of the former inland rail route from Navan to Dublin in the 1994 Dublin transportation initiative, the 1999 strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area and the DTO Platform for Change of September 2000. According to the DTO Platform for Change, a new rail spur was to be constructed off the Maynooth line near Clonsilla via Dunboyne to Navan by 2010 in three stages. Planning and design of the Navan line to railway order stage was to have been completed by 2003, construction of the line from Clonsilla to Dunboyne by 2006 and the extension to Navan by 2010.
It is time to apologise for the foot-dragging and face up to the promises that have been made and the series of reports which state this must be done immediately. The Government should do so now rather than wait for the by-election to make a new announcement when it was already on the cards and promised and on which the Government was elected on the basis of delivering it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have put €1.2 billion into different aspects of rail transport. Two weeks ago Deputy Higgins asked me about the Clonsilla to Dunboyne line.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach was asked about the Navan line.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Higgins's question regarding the Clonsilla to Dunboyne——
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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We did not ask the Taoiseach about that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Will the Taoiseach get around to answering the question?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy submitted his question to the Taoiseach and was heard without interruption. The Taoiseach must have the same courtesy.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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His own Deputy mentioned two phases. One must start with the first stage before getting to the last stage. We are not building with Lego.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Studies have been finished regarding the Clonsilla to Dunboyne line, the situation is well advanced and planning is almost certain to go ahead. The next stage, the feasibility study, is being undertaken. That has only started and will look at extending the line more broadly to Navan. Of course it makes sense ultimately to extend the line to Navan, but the first part of the process is the line to Dunboyne and that will hopefully get underway.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I do not detect from the Taoiseach any level of urgency about the matter. He says it is a good idea, and we can all speak about good ideas. However, the Government is in place to act, particularly on its promises and manifesto. Will that happen with regard to the Navan line, not just as far as Dunboyne? CSO figures published last year showed Navan as the fastest-growing large town in the State between 1996 and 2001. Its population increased by 51.6%, which is almost 20,000 people, while overall State figures increased by 8%. In that regard, will the Taoiseach initiate the Navan project? Will he state it as the Navan line rather than phase one? Will he say it is the Navan line, and will it be delivered by 2010? This is what people need to know, given that they are investing, and will hopefully continue to invest, in Navan. They need to know if the service will be there.
The Taoiseach mentioned cost. A study by Iarnród Éireann showed the Maynooth to Clonsilla line cost €156 million. Road building will cost between €15 billion and €20 billion and will be announced sometime in March. Can we compare like with like and give a fair allocation to the rail programme so that the line will be built to Navan?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No Government has ever put as much money into transport infrastructure as we have.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Government has invested in roads.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Over €1.2 billion has been invested in rail transport. The logical position is to build the line to Navan. The first stage is the Clonsilla to Dunboyne line. The studies have been done and completed, the Government is supportive of it and we want to get on with it. Some €31 billion has been allocated to the transport programme until 2009.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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That is all for roads.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not all for roads. The Midleton line which helps over 100,000 commuters is going ahead and is well underway.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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It is not underway.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind members of the Green Party that the Taoiseach is entitled to make his reply without interruption. If the Deputy has any respect for his leader, he will allow him to answer without interruption.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is beyond Deputy Boyle's wildest dreams.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Boyle got upset when I said the Midleton line was underway. He obviously does not want it to be underway so he got upset at the reference. The feasibility study of the Navan line has commenced and hopefully we will get that back.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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When did the Taoiseach last use the train?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sargent might, on another occasion, tell me when we will also get the N3. His view is that we will have the rail line sooner than the N3.