Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
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Question 66: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he has completed his considerations of a proposal to extend free travel here to Irish emigrant pensioners in Britain; the decision which has been reached in this respect; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6109/05]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The free travel scheme is available to all people living in the State aged 66 years, or over. It is also available to carers and to people with disability who are in receipt of certain social welfare payments. It applies to travel within the State and cross-Border journeys between here and Northern Ireland.

There have been a number of proposals for extending entitlement for free travel to people living outside Ireland including a proposal contained in the report of the task force on policy regarding emigrants, which was submitted to the Minister for Foreign Affairs in 2002. This issue was examined in the review of the free schemes which was published by the Policy Institute, Trinity College, Dublin, in 2000. The review considered that the main objective of the free travel scheme is to encourage older people and people with disability to remain independent and active within the community, thereby reducing the need for institutional care.

It noted that extending the scheme to visitors would have significant administrative and cost implications even if it was confined to those in receipt of Irish social welfare pensions. In 2000, it was estimated that the extension of the free travel scheme to EU pensioners could incur expenditure of the order of €10 million to €19 million, depending on the level of concession granted.

The proposal to make free travel available to Irish pensioners residing in the UK, would have to be examined in a budgetary context taking account of the other demands for extension of the free travel scheme, the cost, administrative and legal, and possible wider implications.

One of the issues for consideration regarding this proposal is Article 12 of the Treaty of the European Community which contains a general prohibition on discrimination on grounds of nationality. In other words, a member state can not treat its own nationals more favourably than nationals from the other member states. This may mean that if the scheme were extended along the lines suggested, it would have to be extended to all pensioners who are EU nationals coming to Ireland for temporary stays. Extending the free travel scheme to all retired citizens of the European Union would not be in keeping with the objectives of the scheme. However, I am mindful that this matter has been raised in the House a number of times recently and I am continuing my examination of the complex issues involved

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
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I exhort the Minister to continue his examination of the free travel scheme and to arrive at a conclusion quickly. During the course of a recent visit by Deputy Stagg and I we met numerous groups from Coventry, Birmingham, Luton, London, Cricklewood and so on for whom this matter and access to RTE, TG4 and TV3 were the main issues of concern raised repeatedly at our meetings with them. I ask the Minister to examine the position. Is it not the case when the French want something they appear to throw the treaty out the window? As a member of an agricultural delegation I saw this first-hand when the French Government ensured that French beef was promoted above all else.

Given the important contribution made by thousands of immigrants who sent back €4.5 billion to €5 billion in the past which led to the growth of the State and many families, this would be a gesture of recognition for them. Even if it were to cost €30 million, it is only a small proportion of the €4 billion sent back. Given the importance of this issue to Irish people and Irish emigrants, in particular, I suggest it be raised at an EU meeting. Has any advice been taken by the Attorney General on this important means of access which would be available only for a couple of weeks per year when those people come home? While most may never come home, the important issue is that it would be available to them. We in the Labour Party will continue to campaign on this issue and to raise it in the House because it is fundamentally important to give back something to those emigrants who were good to us in the past. Their generosity saved many households in Ireland. I ask the Minister to revisit the matter and to bring forward a favourable reply which would tie in with the aspiration of so many of our emigrants and the diaspora across the Irish Sea.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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There are two issues. One is affordability given that the extension of the scheme would cost between €10 million and €19 million approximately, and the other is a legal issue relating to the EU. We shall have to focus on the second issue to see what is possible. One could then see if one could afford it. I am sure the Deputy will not mind if I pay tribute to Deputy Stagg who has raised this issue with me on many occasions and has also done so privately. He feels strongly about this issue and asked whether it could be confined to pensioners pre-1953.

The free travel scheme is available to everyone here over the age of 66 years. Some 650,000 people are entitled to use it. It has nothing to do with pensions. Everybody over the age of 66 years, irrespective of pension or means, is entitled to free travel. If we were to take the worst case scenario and if the EU equality rule provides that all citizens be treated equally, we would then have to treat everybody over the age of 66 years in the EU to free travel in Ireland. The issue of whether it could be confined to all those over the age of 66 years who are Irish citizens has other legal implications for our membership of the Union. That is probably not practical either.

The Deputy asked if it could be confined to Irish pensioners abroad. It is not confined to Irish pensioners in Ireland but to those over 66 years of age. If it were to be confined to Irish pensioners abroad, then Irish citizens abroad who are not pensioners would not be entitled to it. There is a whole mosaic of questions which arise from the bigger picture. I have asked my officials to raise this matter with the EU with a view to making some progress. Approximately 40,000 Irish citizens in the UK are in receipt of Irish pensions. An extension of the scheme could not be confined to the UK but would have to include the rest of the EU. In the event that there are approximately 10,000 in other parts of the EU, there may be 50,000 or 60,000 in receipt of Irish pensions in the EU. If that number was added to the present stock of approximately 660,000 the increase would be of the order of 8% to 10%. That might be manageable if one was allowed confine it to Irish pensioners living in the European Union. One would then have to consider those in the US. How does one ring-fence it? Those are the issues involved. I have asked the Department to speed up its examination of those issues. Even before looking at the question of money we need to sort out what is permitted to us under the EU and where we draw the line. This happens not only in the area of free travel but right across the board in a whole range of concessions that we would like to extend to the Irish abroad. However, there are huge practical implications in trying to do it.