Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask the Taoiseach about an issue that has raised its head on a regular basis over the past number of years. We have all experienced and heard Ministers' comments on the rip-off that occurs on a regular basis for tickets for major international events, matches, concerts etc. This has been a problem of some proportion within the Gaelic Athletic Association for some years. I recall being in Jones's Road one day and speaking to the Taoiseach, long before he became Taoiseach, and talking about the matter.

I noticed that two tickets for a U2 concert, normally costing between €60 and €80, were on sale for €500 within minutes of the tickets going on sale. This morning I read of two terrace tickets for the Ireland-England rugby match in Lansdowne Road attracting a bid of €1,350. This is disgraceful. The only people who profit from this practice are ticket touts. In France and Britain there is very strong anti-tout legislation. If we read over the reports of these annual cases of clear rip-off, we read that Ministers are appalled at the carry on. I understand that even last night at The Point there were ticket touts operating. It beggars belief that thousands of genuine fans of football, soccer, rugby, music, concerts or whatever cannot legitimately get their hands on tickets, while tickets find their way into the hands of touts and are sold at exorbitant rates on the black market. A Member told me this morning that he has paid €500 for two tickets for Pavarotti.

As a person interested in sport and with a connection to the music world, does the Taoiseach not think it is time the Government considered the issue? Instead of having Ministers say they are appalled by it, the Taoiseach could introduce legislation that would in some way restrict, limit or put out of business the touts who charge exorbitant fees and rip off genuine fans of sport and music who cannot find a way of getting tickets. I am sure the Taoiseach must agree with that. The matter does not appear on his legislative programme, but perhaps he will do something about it now.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Subject to correction, I understood we passed legislation some years ago making touting illegal.

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not working.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I introduced a Bill on it but it was voted down.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I remember we debated the issue then. For as long as I can remember, touts, of whom there are plenty around my part of the world, have always been fearful of gardaí and try to avoid them. I presume there is some reason for that and that there is some law in existence on the issue.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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The ticket can be confiscated.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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However, I cannot recall hearing whether the law is enforced rigidly or whether there have been prosecutions. There is an issue. U2 and rugby tickets are like gold dust. It is almost impossible to get tickets for the Ireland-England match and this is a real problem. I wanted to build a national stadium so that a large number of people would fit in it and we would not have the problem. At least I funded Croke Park. A national stadium is probably the best way of eliminating the problem, but subject to that happening — it will sometime — I agree exorbitant prices are being charged.

In recent years many of the sporting organisations have tried to operate a system of only giving a small quota of tickets to individuals to cut out the practice. Other sporting organisations have tried to issue tickets through clubs in order to eliminate the problem. Obviously, no matter what is done, some people will try to profit.

If an old law exists, it probably involves a low fine that is not a deterrent. The issue of trying to stop people selling on tickets would not be easily enforced, no matter how it was done. As Deputy Kenny wants me to consider the issue, I will raise it and see what happens.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Deputy Naughten introduced a Bill on the issue previously which was accepted on Second Stage but voted down by the Government on Committee Stage. Deputy Rabbitte did the same on behalf of the Labour Party.

I was in Murrayfield, filling in for the Taoiseach, on Saturday. There was no evidence of ticket touts there because there was a problem filling the stadium which holds 67,000. If the GAA motions committee got its act together, this matter might be discussed. In respect of this clear problem, will the Taoiseach instruct the appropriate Minister, be it the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to look again at the two Private Members' Bills that were introduced by Fine Gael and the Labour Party in previous years, and at the legislation that exists in the United Kingdom and France, which is strong and clear?

The problem is that when tickets are issued officially, some organisations or persons decide either to raffle them or let them out on the black market. The essence of the matter should be that no ticket should be resold beyond its retail value without the consent of the organisation. For example, clubs have raffled All-Ireland GAA tickets with the consent of the GAA to raise money for the clubs. This was a prolific practice in the run-in to last year's All-Ireland. The Taoiseach should look at the legislation that exists in other countries and advise the appropriate Minister to bring the matter before the House. There are many of these major sporting and musical occasions coming up and people will be ripped off by unscrupulous touts.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem looking at that. As I said, an old law exists but I accept it is probably ineffectual as the fines and confiscations provided for have little effect. My colleagues inform me they believe a Bill was accepted in principle but was never passed. We can look at that.

Deputy Kenny has raised the matter of the practicalities of distribution which is a very difficult issue. Ticket distribution through quotas in sporting organisations annoys many genuine fans who try to buy tickets for their friends. Fans who queue for tickets also find they have difficulties. Ticket distribution through clubs is the fairest way because their members are the people who are active in the sport in question. However, people can pass on tickets, sell them or raffle them. We will examine if tough laws are in place elsewhere that would prevent tickets valued at €25 selling for €600. That is a crazy situation which would prevent any genuine fan from having the opportunity to get into a sports ground for a game let alone for a concert. I will have the matter examined.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I wish to raise with the Taoiseach a matter relating to the programme for Government. As we all know, that agreement was entered into after the election so we are not talking about election promises. The Taoiseach stated in the programme for Government:

We will continue to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in our schools. Over the next five years we will progressively introduce maximum class size guidelines which will ensure that the average size of classes for children will be below best international practice of 20:1.

The position is that more than 100,000 children are catered for in classes that range from 30 to 39 pupils. Obviously, children in bigger schools suffer most.

Let us look at, for example, Kildare and Meath, for no particular reason. The Government has reached its target of a class size of under 20 in 4% of cases in Kildare and in 10% of schools in Meath. Some 37% of pupils in Kildare and 34% in Meath are taught in classes of between 30 and 39. Meath has the second largest class size in the entire country with 44 children in one class. There has been no move at all on class sizes. It would appear the new Minister for Education and Science — I will sit down before she gets a note to the Taoiseach — has retreated from this aim. She described it as a "noble aspiration" on a recent television programme. I do not know if that is what she has written in the note to the Taoiseach but it would appear she has retreated from the promise in the programme for Government.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Can the Taoiseach read her writing?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have promised and continue to pursue the commitment to reduce class sizes. The average class size in primary schools has now gone down to just under 24. It was previously over 27. This is the smallest class size in our history. We are determined to lower class sizes even further to below the international best practice figure of 20.

In recent years we have invested resources in special needs and education for the disadvantaged. Deputy Rabbitte would accept that all areas are not equal. This is an issue about which I feel strongly and have spoken on several times. It is not simply a case of dividing the number of teachers by the number of children in the population. That is flawed thinking. I accept that we should aim to achieve the international best practice target in all schools. However, focusing on schools in disadvantaged and marginalised areas, which have high levels of unemployment or social disadvantage, where we have to implement active programmes, including pre-school and after-school care, breakfast clubs and school lunches to attract children and help them, is a better system than looking at the global issue. In the area of special needs, class size is 1:15 and 1:20, which is as it should be. It would be sad if we were simply to reduce class sizes to 22 or 23 everywhere. It is preferable that we try to target resources. This year the number of special needs teachers has reached 4,000. Class size is already at or below the target for the areas that really need it, those which have been designated as priority areas.

I am happy to talk about Kildare where €85 million has been provided for major school building and modernisation projects in the past five years. We have invested significant sums of money in NUI Maynooth where student numbers have increased dramatically. We have also invested significant resources in other areas of education in County Kildare and in County Meath.

In reply to Deputy Rabbitte's question, international best practice is a class size of 20 and we are reducing it. I think Deputy Rabbitte would agree with the point that it is far better that we target resources and get lower class sizes, which we have done, in disadvantaged and marginalised areas.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is right. I might well agree with him but all I am doing is pointing to the programme for Government that he agreed with the Progressive Democrats. The Taoiseach does not agree with it. He gave a clear commitment that he would bring class size below the international best practice guideline of 20:1 within five years. That was a Government agreement. Whether I agree with the Taoiseach's latest position is neither here nor there. I accept children these days are immensely bright but none of the primary school children in Kildare go to NUI Maynooth. That is two stages later. Why has the Government departed from that commitment? The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, described the programme for Government as a "noble aspiration" on Ursula Halligan's television programme, which I saw.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It is noble.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Ivor Callely has noble aspirations.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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That is not much good to children in large classes.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does the programme for Government stand under the new Minister for Education and Science? Her Department has quite properly in recent years taken sex education seriously but, nonetheless, it appears to be entirely taken aback when three or four years after young couples buy homes in a new housing estate, children appear. Only when the children are four years of age does discussion begin on the need for the provision of a school. For example, where land is designated for a school it has to be purchased at post-rezoning prices. The Government has sought to do nothing about that.

In one case I came across in Kildare a child had to wait until the age of six because there was no place for her in the local school. That is the reality of the figures. If the Taoiseach is now changing the focus to educational disadvantage I entirely agree with him——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——but I still disagree that it is acceptable for 100,000 primary school children to be in classes of between 30 and 39 in whatever area of the country they happen to be located.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to give way to the Taoiseach.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As stated in the programme for Government, best international practice is a class size of 20 children per teacher. We have significantly reduced class size to 23.9 children. Deputy Rabbitte is also aware of the policy to support small rural schools, of which there are 600 or 700. That has been a good policy. These one or two-teacher schools are small but they are based in their communities. It is part of the rural renewal process of keeping schools in rural communities. We made a decision to do that rather than close or rationalise them. Otherwise, children would have further to travel to school. In some of these small schools it is difficult to manage class size. Half the schools in the country have four teachers or fewer. Therefore, when one factors in such matters one can appreciate the practical issues involved. Nevertheless, we are reducing the ratio and, in disadvantaged and special need areas, teacher-pupil ratios are now 1:15 and 1:20 and we will continue to invest additional resources.

In recent years the Government has hired more than 4,000 extra primary teachers and more than 2,000 extra post-primary teachers, which represents an enormous increase in the education budget, which has doubled from €3 billion to more than €7 billion. Approximately 47,000 pupils in 234 disadvantaged schools are now in reduced class sizes of between 15 and 20 and support for these schools is a priority. I am glad Deputy Rabbitte agrees that the correct approach involves not treating every area as equal because they are not. As a result of family circumstances, education and inherent problems over many decades certain areas require additional resources. In regard to resources, I have always argued that rather than trying to carry out a mathematical exercise, which many would have one do, and placing teachers with a certain number of pupils while stating that the ratio is the same everywhere, one should examine the areas which need the resources most.

This is the correct approach in order to give people a break. If children do not get a break in primary school they will not get a break anywhere else. That is the Government's policy and one which has enabled it to achieve ratios of 1:15 and 1:20. It is the correct policy.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Government has not expanded the number of disadvantaged schools in years.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach advise the House if it is the Government's intention to proceed with plans to impose waste incinerators on communities throughout the State, despite the concerns about pollution and the obvious risks to public health? How does he square that policy with the position of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, who has publicly opposed the siting of any such incinerator in Wicklow or that of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, who himself was an objector to the Ringaskiddy proposition at the planning stage? Moreover, what is his position on the views of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, who claims to be opposed to the Poolbeg incinerator in Dublin South-East but is still quite happy to see four smaller incinerators based at different locations around Dublin?

Does the Taoiseach agree it is now incumbent on the city manager of Dublin City Council to withdraw plans for the Poolbeg proposition given that last Monday night, by an overwhelming vote of 33 to three, the democratically-elected and accountable members of Dublin City Council decided to reject it? Will the Taoiseach join me in urging respect for the democratic wishes of the electorate as expressed at that meeting? Has he also noticed that the overwhelming majority of his own party's representatives on Dublin City Council supported the Sinn Féin motion of opposition to the proposed incinerator?

Will the Taoiseach call on the board of the EPA to make itself available at its own oral hearings, something it has yet to accede to, and that it will be accountable for its decisions? Will the Government listen to the will of the people on this issue, which is of major concern and importance, and come down on the side of the responsible addressing of the waste problems we all face?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is committed to accelerated delivery of all infrastructure which is necessary to underpin economic growth and it is placing emphasis at the top of the waste hierarchy with waste prevention to the fore. We are dealing, once and for all, with integral and illegal waste activities by putting in place the necessary structures to deal with individuals and companies who are breaching those guidelines. Deputy Ó Caoláin will be aware that thermal treatment plants are a key element of modern waste strategy everywhere in the world. The countries which have the best——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Terminal for whom?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach without interruption. Deputy Ó Caoláin was allowed put his question without interruption and the Taoiseach is entitled to exactly the same courtesy.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I seek a clarification of the Taoiseach's definition of the word "terminal".

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair will have to take appropriate action if the Deputy does not allow the Taoiseach to reply.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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All over the world thermal treatment plans are a key part of modern waste management systems. The most environmentally-friendly countries, with the best environmental standards and which are quoted in all the international reports, have thermal treatment as an integral part of their plans. If the Deputy examines any of these programmes or the presentations prepared by NGOs on this issue, he will see that is the case.

The regional waste plans, which are being actively implemented, are being reviewed and updated. There has also been a number of other initiatives. The Government has enacted the Protection of the Environment Act 2003 and a draft national biodegradable study will be finished shortly which is intended to assist in the direction of the major element of waste from landfill to be implemented through the regional waste plans which are now being updated.

The overall recycling rate has been accelerated rapidly. A few years ago, I answered questions in the House indicating that the figures for recycling were tiny and had little effect but the rate increased to 9% in 1998, 21% in 2002, 28% in 2003 and last year it increased as it has this year. We have reached a serious stage in meeting these targets. The number of bottle banks has increased from approximately 400 a number of years ago to almost 1,700. By the end of 2003, the last year for which we have figures, the segregated waste collection service was provided to 42% of all households in the State, which figure has been rising rapidly.

All of these issues are progressing. Our figures are among the best in Europe. We have improved from being nowhere on the list to a very high level. Issues such as packaging waste recycling has increased rapidly and there has been remarkable progress. Ireland is well on track to meet the EU's 50% recycling target for the waste stream by the end of this year. We have allocated enormous funds from the environmental fund for this purpose. More than 93 local waste recycling projects are operating in local authority areas. I am sure Deputy Ó Caoláin will welcome these amazing improvements. If his scientific information is that the thermal treatment plants are not up to these international standards and he provides the evidence to me, I will have it examined.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Once again the Taoiseach has avoided addressing the questions put to him. He did not address the issue of the decision of Dublin City Council last Monday and the support for the Sinn Féin motion of many of his own party's representatives in the city. He has not called on the Dublin city manager to respect the democratic wishes of the elected representatives of the city council. He has not called on the board of the EPA to make itself amenable to its own oral hearings. He has continued to obfuscate, which is clearly his penchant at almost all times. Does the Taoiseach accept that this is primarily an issue about democracy and public health? That is what we are talking about here.

When the people of County Louth dissented about the north-east waste management strategy because it imposed incineration, the former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Dempsey, incinerated democracy. He took the power from the hands of local councillors and vested it in county and city managers under whose diktat he was able to impose the plans. We are now faced with an incinerator at Carronstown, County Meath, the hearings for which will commence in the week of the by-election in Meath and Kildare North. That is a very important date. With everything the Taoiseach has said, it is apparent he was more taken by his visit to China than he has admitted heretofore, having been absolutely impressed by the powers of the mayor of Shanghai in respect of planning matters. I assure the Taoiseach that the electorate in this country will not accept Shanghai-type standards in democracy or public health, or indeed the planning process, something the Taoiseach and his party know far too much about.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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One will not see the Belfast brigade talking of that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Or the Limerick one.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have probably one of the most open processes in the world with regard to planning issues and I agree with that, though it takes time. The systems of local authority, of planning, of courts and of the EPA are all open and transparent and all issues have to be considered by them. That does not take from the fact that we are making substantial progress in dealing with the waste issue. I have given the figures. We have established the office of environmental enforcement, a distinct and dedicated unit of the EPA to deliver enhanced environmental compliance through enforcement of EPA licences, which is the right thing to do. Substantial funding has been provided to local authorities from the environmental fund specifically for enforcement. We also have the national enforcement network. The local authorities and managers also have their powers in place and I do not need to comment on them. The legislation governs the EPA. All these matters are in place. We are committed to accelerating the delivery of infrastructure necessary to underpin economic growth.

The only thing I object to is the people who on one side want to oppose landfill sites and thermal treatment and do not really subscribe to recycling. They want to be against everything and for nothing.

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, the reality is the waste issue must be dealt with.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The most comprehensive——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to allow the Taoiseach to conclude without interruption.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are using the best international standards in every system in this country. The regulatory system and the independent system are there to oversee that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should try to sell that to the people of County Meath.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin, this is a parliamentary democracy and the Taoiseach is entitled to be heard without interruption in the same way as the Deputy.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy would be unfamiliar with that.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a modern economy which must deal with waste of all kinds if we are to have 2 million of our citizens working every day. To say we do not have to deal with it is running away from the issue. We should be looking at the best environmental standards. This is the right thing to do and we are doing it.