Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 23 October 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning, we will engage with the Department of Justice, Home Affairs on Migration to examine the 2024 Appropriation Accounts for Vote 21 - Prisons, Vote 24 - Justice and Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, programme E expenditure. The committee will also examine Chapter 9 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022 and Chapters 9 and 10 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024.
We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General and Accounting Officer; Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, deputy secretary general; Ms Caron McCaffrey, director general, Irish Prison Service; Mr. Richard Browne, director of the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC; Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary; Mr. Neil Ward, assistant secretary; and Ms Fidelma Browne, principal officer.
We are also joined by Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan, principal officer, justice Vote, from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, namely the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Jennifer O'Halloran, audit manager. They are all very welcome.
I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The appropriation account for Vote 24 - Justice, records gross expenditure of €661 million in 2024. This was an increase of almost €110 million, or 20%, on the prior year. Expenditure under the Vote was distributed across two programmes, namely a criminal justice pillar, which accounts for €404 million, or around 60% of the expenditure, and a civil justice pillar, which accounts for the remaining 40%, or €257 million. In broad terms, the voted expenditure in 2024 covered the administrative and service costs of the then Department of Justice and of a range of small but important service providers in the justice sector. In some cases, these are semi-autonomous divisions of the Department, such as the Probation Service and the Office of the State Pathologist. Others are statutory bodies with their own independent governance and reporting arrangements, such as the Legal Aid Board and newly established Cuan. Larger agencies in the sector, such as An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service, have their own Votes and Accounting Officers.
I issued a clear audit opinion on the appropriation account for Vote 24 but drew attention to disclosures in the statement on internal financial controls in respect of material instances of non-compliance with national procurement rules regarding contracts that operated in 2024.
At the start of June 2025, the Department was assigned responsibility for cybersecurity policy and strategy in Ireland. It discharges these functions through the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC, which previously was part of the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. Expenditure on the functioning of the NCSC in 2024 totalled €8.8 million. The NCSC’s remit covers the response to the increasing cyber threats of all strategically important entities in Ireland, whether public or private. In late 2021, the NCSC published cybersecurity baseline standards for the public sector which set out the measures that public bodies should implement to secure their ICT networks. The NCSC subsequently published a self-assessment form in November 2022 that public bodies could use to assess their cybersecurity defences.
Chapter 9 of my Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023 provided an overview of the NCSC’s cybersecurity self-assessment form and shares some user experience of its application. Overall, the report concluded that the checklist is a good model for public sector bodies to use to assess their cybersecurity practices and controls. The Accounting Officer will be able to give the committee an update on the implementation of the report’s recommendations.
The Irish Prison Service is formally part of the Department of justice but is funded and accounted for separately through Vote 21. While the Secretary General of the Department is the Accounting Officer for Vote 21, the Prison Service is headed operationally by its director general.
The 2024 appropriation account for Vote 21 - Prisons, records gross expenditure of almost €501 million. A total of 68% of the expenditure, totalling €340 million, relates to pay. The remainder is spread across a range of areas including maintenance and improvements to the prison estate, equipment purchases, education and services for prisoners and other operating costs. There was a small surrender at the year’s end of €1.37 million. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the account.
Note 6.6 of the appropriation account provides an overview of certain non-Vote accounts operated within the Prison Service, including accounts for prisoners’ personal funds and prison shops. The note includes an update on progress made by the Prison Service in respect of voluntary mess committees, which have been an area of significant attention for the committee.
In May, the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration assumed responsibility for the provision of accommodation and related services to international protection applicants in need of these supports. The Department already had responsibility for processing applications for protection. The aggregate expenditure under the accommodation programme in 2024, when it was part of Vote 40, was €2.3 billion. Of this, €1.2 billion related to accommodation and other costs for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection, and €1.1 billion related to accommodation for others seeking international protection.
Chapter 10 of my Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024 reviews the operation of controls over the management of contracts for the provision of accommodation services for persons seeking international protection. This included: the adequacy of due diligence checks before contracts are entered into; and the subsequent management of the contracts, with a focus on ensuring that what is paid for by taxpayers is received.
By the end of 2024, close to 33,000 international protection applicants were living in State-supported accommodation, and around three quarters of those applicants were in emergency accommodation. As mentioned earlier, expenditure of almost €1.1 billion was incurred on the provision of accommodation and related services for international protection applicants in 2024. Over 90% of the expenditure comprised payments to commercial providers.
The examination’s review of a sample of properties found that pre-contract due diligence records were significantly incomplete. Evidence of planning permission to use the property for international protection accommodation, or confirmation of exempted development, was available for only one in five of the properties examined. Insurance certificates and appropriate fire certificates were available for only around two in five of the properties. Actual signed contracts were available for just half of the sample properties reviewed.
The examination also identified gaps in the controls over payments for accommodation. In December 2023, it was established that a provider of multiple properties had been overcharging VAT and had been overpaid a total of €7.4 million. By September 2025, just €1.5 million of this had been refunded. The Department stated recovery of the balance was under review.
The ultimate objective of the Department-led project to develop a criminal justice operational hub is to enable the effective end-to-end management of cases and persons through the criminal justice system. My report examines the development of the hub between 2017 and 2024.
The 2017 business plan for the hub set a budget of €7.2 million over three years, to be funded from Vote 24 - Justice. Except for 2020, the Department has significantly underspent on the hub’s annual funding allocation.
Most of the expenditure of €4.3 million incurred by the Vote to the end of 2024 relates to consultant or contractor costs. Some additional expenditure was incurred by other Votes, such as the Courts Service and An Garda Síochána.
While many potential data transfer projects have been identified across the justice sector, just four projects have been completed in the seven years since development of the hub started. A review of two of the completed projects indicates that the benefits set for the projects appear to have been achieved. That only four projects have been completed may indicate a loss of momentum and a loss of potential net economic benefits from the use of improved technology. Planned data harvesting and capacity for the tracking of individuals’ journeys through the criminal justice system have also been suspended from the project. As a result, it is unlikely the hub will enable end-to-end management of cases in the short to medium term. The report makes recommendations about strengthening the planning and management of projects and ensuring post-project reviews address the anticipated benefits set at the project planning stage.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I now invite the Secretary General to make her opening statement on behalf of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. As set out in the letter of invitation, she has five minutes.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Before I start, I will take a moment to pay tribute to An Garda Síochána and Garda colleagues on the front line who have been dealing with very dangerous situations in the past couple of nights. They have responded with typical courage and professionalism. I also think of the vulnerable child who is the alleged victim of a crime and her family. That matter is now before the courts so I will not say anything more specific about it. However, the violence we have seen this week, as others have said in the House this week, cannot be viewed as some kind of legitimate reaction to that crime. I send my best wishes to the gardaí who have sustained injuries in the past two nights. I hope they are recovering well. They are not major injuries, but even a minor injury can have a lifelong tail on it sometimes, so I am thinking of them. I also thank our team in Citywest. I am conscious of the impact this has had on all the people living, working, going to school and so on in Citywest. A mix of international protection applicants and Ukrainians reside in the facility. There are up to 400 families with children. I am also thinking of all the residents in the area who have nothing to do with this type of manipulation and violence. We have been engaging with local residents and listening to their concerns in the past few months. They are decent law-abiding people and I realise this has been a difficult week for them as well. I thank the Chair for indulging me with that.
I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the 2024 appropriation accounts for Vote 24 - justice, and Vote 21 - prisons, along with the 2024 expenditure in Vote 40, which has since been transferred to the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, and three chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2022 and 2024 reports on the accounts of the public service. I will share my time with Ms McCaffrey, director general of the Irish Prison Service. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office for their valuable work in auditing the appropriation accounts and on the reports on the accounts of the public services.
In 2024, the justice Vote was one of six in the sector, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said, and supported a broad range of public services delivered by the Department and its agencies. More than 4,000 people worked in the Department and agencies funded from the Vote, serving the Government and the public. Staffing increased from 3,542 people in 2023 to 4,197 people in 2024, reflecting both organisational growth and the scale of the Department’s responsibilities. This growth was particularly directed towards managing our busy immigration services.
Working towards our vision of a safe, fair and inclusive Ireland means that diversity and inclusion is centrally important across all levels. Women accounted for 59% of staff in 2024, with a majority at nearly every grade and near equality in the management board, narrowing our gender pay gap to 1.27% in 2024. There was also wider representation of colleagues with disabilities, a growing variety of ethnic backgrounds and from the LGBT+ community. Where comparable data is available, the Department of justice ranks very strongly on all these markers.
The Department’s net expenditure in 2024 was €506 million, including €10 million in capital investment. Our largest ever project, the new Forensic Science Ireland laboratory in Backweston, Kildare, was officially opened in 2024. It is a world-class facility providing vital support to the criminal justice system. The Department prioritised important modernisation programmes throughout the year, supported by investment in technology and innovation. Major programmes included improving our cyber resilience, immigration services and international protection processing. The criminal justice operational hub continued to develop provision of a secure digital method for co-operation to replace paper and manual processes across the criminal justice system. The Department is committed to further strengthening project management, reporting and accountability processes, as recommended by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his review of this important programme.
Expenditure was managed across two programmes in the Vote, criminal justice and civil justice, which includes immigration. After the transfer of functions completed in May and June of this year, the Department gained responsibility for cybersecurity policy and the National Cyber Security Centre, and the areas of integration and accommodation for international protection applicants and people fleeing the war in Ukraine. The Department advanced major legislative reform during the year.
The Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024 was a fairly comprehensive transformation of policing and security over the course of the year. The Act established a number of important new bodies but beyond these structural changes, it also provides for community safety as a shared responsibility across the Government and seeks to strengthen co-ordination between policing, health, education, housing and local authorities to address the underlying causes of crime. A director of the new National Office for Community Safety was appointed in September 2024. The office plays a central role in rolling out and supporting the 36 new local community safety partnerships, LCSPs, to be established and is providing support, training and guidance to local authorities to enhance safety in communities across Ireland. It will also administer the community safety fund, which had an allocation of €3.75 million in 2024, rising to €4 million this year and to €4.75 million in 2026, supporting projects to prevent crime and strengthen resilience.
The Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027 also progressed strongly, with funding of €30 million in 2024, rising to €33.2 million this year, supporting youth diversion projects nationwide. We will achieve full national coverage in this important area by the end of this year, again supported by further investment. These initiatives play a vital role in supporting youth workers on the front line to divert young people from crime and support them to address their destructive behaviour.
Tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is a core priority under the whole-of-government zero tolerance strategy. The Department worked with partners to establish Cuan, the new statutory agency leading the national response which was established in January 2024. The agency has a strong board and enthusiastic team and I am very proud of the work they are leading across the Government, co-ordinating refuge provision, victim support, prevention and awareness programmes and providing services.
In the 12-month period to April of this year, the Central Statistics Office recorded that almost 125,300 people moved to Ireland. This includes 31,500 returning Irish citizens and 30,200 arrivals from the UK and EU countries. Approximately 50% came from other countries such as India and Brazil to work or study. They make enormously positive contributions to our society and economy and play vital roles in sectors like healthcare, home care, construction, technology, retail, hospitality and transport.
During 2024, the Department took over full responsibility for renewing immigration permissions, which had traditionally been a task undertaken by An Garda Síochána in Garda stations around the country. This represented a major milestone in modernising immigration services. It allowed a more streamlined approach while freeing gardaí to concentrate on front-line policing and immigration enforcement measures.
Each year, people arrive in Ireland seeking refuge and protection under international law. Those who apply for international protection are entitled to basic needs, such as accommodation, under Irish and EU law. Between 2022 and 2024, 159,000 people arrived in Ireland seeking either temporary or international protection, including 114,000 who fled the war in Ukraine. This placed exceptional demands on the State’s protection and accommodation systems and required a major operational scale-up. While pressures remain, the system delivered much faster decisions in 2024 and handled new applications more effectively. We have stabilised things further in 2025. The International Protection Office, IPO, continued to expand its capacity and improve efficiency. Investment in digitisation, re-engineered processes and additional staffing transformed its operations. Staffing more than tripled from 143 people in 2019 to 620 people in 2024. The IPO delivered over 14,000 first-instance decisions in 2024 compared with 8,500 in 2023 and is on target to decide over 20,000 cases this year. The International Protection Appeals Tribunal, IPAT, closed 3,100 appeals last year, almost double the number in the previous year. These results reflect strong progress following sustained investment, progress that we have continued to build upon this year.
I want to specifically address the accommodation services for international protection applicants. The State had to respond to a sudden and intense surge in asylum applications from over 55,000 people in the past four years, which coincided with the arrival of more than 114,000 people from Ukraine, as I already said.
A massive effort across both the Ukraine and international protection accommodation teams was required and a lot was asked of public services and communities across Ireland. Teams of civil and public servants across a range of Departments and agencies worked really hard during this period to deliver services and increase bed spaces from 7,000 to 27,000, expanding IPAS accommodation capacity, very rapidly, in a very restricted sector. The profound shortages of accommodation persisted throughout that period and from the end of 2023, the State was unable to offer accommodation to all international protection applicants in line with its legal duty. This led to instances of unaccommodated applicants and while most applicants were not rough-sleeping, the numbers waiting for an offer rose to a peak of 3,500 people in March 2025. The crisis period meant that emergency sourcing of a wide range of accommodation options was essential. This is in part why we now have a much larger system than we needed in 2021, but also why it expanded into further commercial provision and parts of the system were not brought on in the ideal configurations, nor at the value for public money we could expect to achieve in more normal times.
Since taking responsibility for this service in May of this year, and as application numbers have dropped, the Department has focused on speeding up applications, increasing returns, and reducing the size and costs of the commercial accommodation system, including by developing more State-owned accommodation solutions. We have made good progress, as outlined in the response to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on these services, introducing an extensive set of new procedures, payment controls and contracting processes. These measures are already delivering improved value for money to the State. As the committee is aware, the Government has prioritised reform of this system, with a focus on reducing costs, making applications quicker and increasing the number of returns when applications are unsuccessful, all the while maintaining fair procedures.
The Department maintained strong oversight of our many agencies in 2024 through formal governance and performance agreements that set clear expectations while respecting operational independence. Funding and resource requirements were managed in close collaboration with the Department of public expenditure and I would like to thank my colleagues there.
Last year also saw the conclusion of the Stardust inquests and the introduction of a compensation scheme which I hope has brought some degree of solace to the families of the 48 young people who were unlawfully killed in 1981. I thank my colleagues on the inquest team and all those who worked so hard to support the families.
I am happy to go into further detail as members require but will hand over now to Ms McCaffrey.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss Vote 21 which had a total net expenditure of €488 million in 2024. As members will be aware, the Irish Prison Service does not have the option of refusing committals and must accept all people committed to us by the courts. In 2024 we witnessed sustained growth in the size of the prison population, with a 9.6% increase in committals and an average prison population of just over 4,900. Numbers have continued to increase and today the system is operating at 120% of capacity, with over 5,500 people in custody. The cost of keeping a person in custody has also increased by almost 12%, with an annual cost of a prison space in 2024 of €99,000. To accommodate these increasing demands, significant investments were made in the prison estate including capital projects to improve security, expand capacity and modernise facilities. The Prison Service was allocated €502 million in gross funding to ensure that key operational functions remained robust, while almost half of the €39.5 million capital budget was strategically utilised to provide additional prison spaces.
The Government has made significant capital funding available to the Prison Service in order to enhance our existing prison infrastructure and to provide additional capacity. The revised national development plan capital allocation for the Irish Prison Service will see record capital investment of over €500 million between 2026 and 2030. This funding will achieve over 1,500 spaces between now and 2031. As numbers in custody have grown, so too has the demand for prisoner services. Enhancing rehabilitation and prisoner support remains central to our mission. Education participation rates saw continued engagement, with an average of 58.5% of prisoners participating in educational programmes over the course of the year. Work training initiatives were also expanded during the year with the introduction of nearly zero energy building, NZEB, retrofitting, a critical skill to support employment for prisoners post release and reduce recidivism.
In 2024 the Irish Prison Service employed 3,740 full-time employees across a range of disciplines. Despite a competitive job market, the Prison Service recruited 270 prison officers in 2024 and is on target to recruit 300 this year. The digitalisation of services is a key part of our strategic plan and on 1 July 2024, we introduced an online payments system to allow prisoners' families to electronically transfer money into prisoners' accounts. In the final six months of 2024, 80,000 transactions were made to a value of €4.1 million. The success of this project not only reduces our levels of risk with cash handling, which is very significant, but also provides a valuable service for the families of prisoners who no longer have to travel to prison to lodge money to their family member's account.
In the face of rising expenditure as a result of a rising prison population, we continue to seek efficiencies and savings. The work of our centralised video link unit reduced the requirement for 9,000 of our staff to attend court physically through working with the Courts Service to leverage the usage of video link technology which was introduced during Covid. These are some of the successes and challenges of the Prison Service during 2024. The Secretary General and I are happy to take any questions members may have.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips and Ms McCaffrey for their opening statements. I wish to advise that we will suspend the meeting at midday for a break of between ten and 15 minutes. I will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker, Deputy Ardagh, has 15 minutes while all other speakers will have ten minutes. If time permits, we will have a second round of questioning.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I want to begin by acknowledging the deeply distressing events that took place in Citywest this week and again last night. My first thoughts are with the young girl at the centre of this matter. I hope that she and her family are receiving all the care and support they need. My heart goes out to them at this very difficult time. I am also thinking of the family of the young Ukrainian man murdered in one of the IPAS centres. I also want to acknowledge the wider community in Citywest who are deeply unsettled and frightened by what occurred. People are genuinely anxious and they deserve reassurance, clarity and very calm leadership. The unrest that followed, the violence, the damage to Garda vehicles and the injuries sustained were completely unacceptable. Gardaí have had an extremely difficult and dangerous job to do over recent days and they deserve our full support and gratitude for their efforts to restore order and protect the public. Those who assault our children must be brought to justice and those who riot on our streets and endanger communities must also be held accountable. Peaceful protest is a cornerstone of our democracy but violence and intimidation have no place in it.
Our role today, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, is to focus on governance, procurement and accountability within the international protection accommodation service. This is about ensuring that public funds are spent transparently, fairly and lawfully and that the systems in place are robust, safe and respectful for everyone involved. It is not about policy or politics today but about ensuring that compassion and accountability go hand in hand, that we protect children, support our communities and uphold the values that define us as a democracy.
International protection applicants are protected by Irish law and EU law and those protections cost money. In 2024 the Department of justice spent almost €1 billion on accommodation and related services. A total of €230 million went to just seven providers. How were these providers chosen and did the Department use competitive tendering? What checks are now in place to make sure that prices charged by accommodation providers are fair and reflect value for money for the Irish taxpayer?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not mean to be rude but I will be looking for quick answers because I only have a certain amount of time.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
That is no problem at all. I am going to call on my colleague, Mr. Delaney, who has a lot of the detail on this but I just wanted to stress that the amount of ramp-up that had to be done in 2022 to accommodate the numbers was really significant. Mr. Delaney will assist with the detail.
Mr. David Delaney:
Just to go into some of the questions raised and to back up the point made by the Secretary General, we grew from 7,000 beds to 27,000 in the space of two years.
That was a very large amount of growth in a short space of time. The Deputy pointed to the EU and Irish legal obligations to accommodate people. The priority was to get beds and make sure that we had accommodation for everyone coming into the State.
In terms of competitive processes, we had a procurement process at the end of November 2022 to bring on board a sufficient amount of beds. That process did bring on a few thousand beds but, in the context of the surge we were experiencing at that point in time, that was not sufficient to meet the demand that existed in the system. We then moved to an expression of interest process where anyone who had available accommodation that met our needs at the time, met the planning and building regulation requirements and could accommodate people was accepted. Many of the providers the Deputy mentioned, which are the seven top providers of beds, would have come in through the majority of that process. They would have been assessed at that time, gone through a due diligence process and been identified as being appropriate to provide accommodation to asylum seekers then.
In terms of the process being fair and also providing value for money, I can point to the fact that we now have a very robust due diligence process. We require a Company Registration Office number for every company that applies for international protection accommodation. We use a Tailte Éireann mapping service to confirm the property in question. We also insist on tax clearance-----
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, I am just going to go on. Mr. Delaney said the Department moved from a proper procurement process to an expression of interest process. I do not know what that is, but I know that the C and AG found serious weaknesses when it came to contract management and procurement. Only half of the properties reviewed had all signed contracts, with declared costs and clear cost and capacity details. How can the Department justify making such large payments, where proper contracts were not signed? Can the Department confirm that no new centre will open without a full signed contract, that costs will be set out fully, and that safety and capacity requirements will be in place?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies, is that a rate card?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the rate card, what is the price for capitation?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Delaney give me the capitation range?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can he give me a euro sum for the capitation range?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Delaney give me an average price on capitation?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The national average is €71 a night.
In relation to safety compliance and due diligence, people obviously want to know they will be staying in a safe place. According to the C and AG report, some key documents were missing, such as fire safety and insurance certificates. How does that happen? Who signs off on a property before applicants move in? Can the Department confirm that all current properties now satisfy all fire safety and planning rules?
Mr. David Delaney:
I can confirm that any property that is either in a contract renewal process right now, or any new property that is being taken on right now, would require all of the planning declarations from the county council, and all fire certification and insurance documents to be provided, before a contract is signed. That has been the case for the last year or so. Going back to that phase in 2022 and into 2023, when so many beds had to be brought on in a short space of time, that documentation might not have been in place, but I can confirm now that no contract would be entered into without that material being present.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We also know that oversight has to continue with contracts that are already in place. It came to light that only 14 of 18 centres inspected in 2024 met the inspection targets and the standards. What is being done to make sure inspection findings are followed up and non-compliance is penalised? Are inspection reports made available to local representatives or the public to help maintain confidence?
Mr. David Delaney:
I can confirm that we have done over 300 inspections so far in 2025, 50% of which were by a third party and 50% by civil servants. A report is produced from each of those inspections. Those reports are published on gov.ie so they are transparent and in the public domain. The report is shared with the provider within a fortnight of the inspection and the provider must rectify all issues in the report within 14 days of receiving it. We would reinspect if needed. We would require evidence that all of the issues raised are rectified as part of the feedback from the provider. If the provider continuously fails to rectify as requested, there are clauses in the contracts that allow us to withdraw 10% of the payment requested. If there are ongoing issues, or a serious issue is identified and the provider does not rectify it, we will terminate the contract. So far this year, we have terminated 17 contracts with providers on the basis of non-compliance or non-performance. We take this very seriously. We also have HIQA inspecting about 50 centres a year as well.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to the Department's 2024 accounts, the C and AG's office discovered overcharging of VAT. The report highlighted that the State was clearly overcharged in the region of €7.4 million. Has the Department now fully recovered that amount? Is that provider still operating under IPAS contracts? If it is, why is it still operating? If the amount is not fully recovered, has the Department initiated legal proceedings to recover the overpayment of VAT?
Mr. David Delaney:
That situation relates to one provider. We have looked into it in detail. It relates to a time in the hospitality industry when there was lack of clarity, when moving from Covid-19 to the Ukraine crisis, in terms of the appropriate VAT for emergency accommodation. We had an external expert brought in to check this for us. The advice we received was that the provider in question had acted in a very prudent manner in erring on the side of caution in charging VAT, which is ultimately money that we collected for the State in the circumstance. There were meetings between the Irish Hotels Federation and the Department of Finance, and between the Department of Finance and the European Commission, to clarify this, in a general sense, for the federation. When the clarity was ultimately sought, the provider approached Revenue to do a self-correction. That self-correction was worked through between the provider and the Revenue Commissioners because, ultimately, VAT is between the provider and the Revenue Commissioners. The final settlement was that the Department was owed the money that was paid back with the remainder-----
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has it been paid back?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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For clarity, how much has been repaid?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the full amount. The amount of the VAT overcharge is €7.4 million. Why has the Department not recovered the full €7.4 million?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not an overcharge.
Mr. David Delaney:
It was an overcharge at the time, but it was an overcharge as part of a broader VAT settlement between the Revenue Commissioners and the provider in question. It was not that we were incorrectly charged on all of it. It was only a portion of it. The portion we were incorrectly charged on was refunded to us.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Delaney saying the Department did not overpay?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It only overpaid by €1.4 million. It did not overpay by €7.4 million.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The public are looking on and thinking that significant sums are being paid out. Public trust depends on openness and clear communication, so I thank Mr. Delaney for his answers. What is the Department doing to rebuild public confidence to show that spending is transparent, that procurement, especially when it comes to IPAS, is fair, and that the system works for international protection applicants and the wider communities, where a lot of these centres are based?
Mr. David Delaney:
We publish the payments to providers on the gov.ie website. There is very much a transparent system in place so people know exactly what is paid. In terms of the process around awarding contracts, we have a very detailed due diligence process that people can have confidence in. The rate card gives confidence as well.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I do not mean to be rude but I only have two minutes left.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I might just move on to the Prison Service. What is the maximum number of prisoners the State can facilitate at any one time?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the maximum ever held?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it safe to say that it is working at capacity?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
Well, at capacity is 100% so we are working over capacity. However, we have taken measures over recent years to introduce new spaces. There were 125 last year and 100 this year. As I mentioned we are very well supported through the NDP now and some of the larger capital projects have commenced.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously capitation for prisoners is not a matter of commercial sensitivity. Can the witness let me know what is the average price per day to facilitate a prisoner?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are there plans for a new prison facility in the State?
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can Ms McCaffrey give us more detail?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
The Castlerea Prison project has already commenced. That will provide 150 spaces. Our next biggest project is a remand prison in Cloverhill. We are significantly increasing our capacity by over 200 there. We have plans to build again in Munster. We built a new Cork prison, as the Deputy will be aware, a number of years ago. We are going to extend our facilities there. We are planning to build in the Midlands Prison. Really, we are building right throughout our estate to maximise our capacity.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How long will these capital projects take?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have been very well supported in terms of receiving an exemption from the first stage of the public spending code so we now have authority for six projects to proceed directly to detail design. We are putting all our energy and resources into it. Obviously there is a critical need for us to bring on additional infrastructure but the timeframe is between now and 2031.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witness.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to pay tribute to the young ten-year-old girl. As the father of a daughter around the same age I cannot begin to imagine what this girl is going through, or indeed her family. Obviously she has been let down by what has happened. She has been failed by so many different groups to be in this situation. So many people have let her down to lead her to this point. It is beyond awful.
I also want to pay tribute to An Garda Síochána. I have a brother and a father who was in the gardaí. I commend An Garda Síochána on the work over the last couple of nights and what they have been dealing with.
Tusla was before us a few weeks ago and I asked a question about the number of children in its care. It did not know how many children have gone out of their system. It has lost track and just does not know as it cannot keep a handle on exactly who is coming in and going out. Obviously we do not know the exact circumstances of this young girl but it is awful, one way or the other.
I want to start with Mr. Delaney who is probably engaged in this area. Mr. Delaney stated the system was overwhelmed in 2022 or 2023. What steps were taken to restrict the number of people coming into the country, if the system was overwhelmed in 2022?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I asked the question "what steps did you take to restrict the numbers coming in?"
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Outside of Ukraine, what steps were taken to reduce the numbers coming in from other countries if it was known the system was going to be overwhelmed by Ukrainian refugees?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When it became obvious, once Putin invaded, the Department knew - we all knew. So what steps were taken to restrict numbers coming in from other countries? If no steps were taken, that is fine.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I asked a question. What steps?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I only have seven and a half minutes. What steps did you take in 2022 to restrict the numbers coming in from other countries?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Did you not take any steps to reduce the numbers coming in, in 2022?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Can I answer the question Deputy? If that is alright? We have our usual immigration steps and we have a border control at Dublin Airport. We have border controls at other areas in the State. We obviously also expedited the processing of applications through the course of 2022 and into 2023 and onwards. I have rehearsed that in my opening remarks in terms of the acceleration of that process.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No major steps were taken.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was not my question. I want to move on. The question was, did you take any steps to restrict numbers from other countries coming in and I did not get an answer to it.
The next question is, are we still allowing people who come into Dublin Airport to arrive with torn-up passports? What happens in those situations?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
Certainly, in the past few years the phenomenon of people arriving without documentation or with the suspicion that they had destroyed the documentation was something we were dealing with. We have taken a lot of measures at Dublin Airport to address that including, as most people have seen, thousands of doorstep operations at planes every year.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Actually, my question was, are they still able to come into the country with torn-up passports?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Are they allowed into the country?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is the answer to the question. They still can arrive. My question was whether they can still arrive.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Thanks but the answer is that they can still apply. That was my question.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. The law can always be changed but currently they are still allowed. That is fine.
There was €978 million paid to third parties. Is that correct? Of that, €230 million was paid to seven people. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Many of those names are out. They are from different backgrounds. Are we happy with those people, those seven groups that we have given €230 million to?
Mr. David Delaney:
We have a very clear system of due diligence. All contracts are provided to companies with a Companies Registration Office number and have gone through that process. I outlined the inspections regime we have as well. We have a system of oversight and we have a system of control when people are entering our process. We have a system of control when contracts are being renewed. One of the findings in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was to focus on providers that had experience of providing accommodation in this sector. It is only normal that some companies and some individuals with experience will help to do this well and do it quickly.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do we always know who the beneficial shareholders in these companies are?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The shareholders in the companies that are given contracts are not known.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am an accountant and I have looked through them. It is almost impossible in some cases for me to track. When I was looking I could not find who the beneficial owners of certain companies were. Why are we giving contracts to companies if we do not know who the shareholders are?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it possible that someone with a criminal background could have a beneficial interest in some of the companies?
Mr. David Delaney:
Depending on the standards that the Companies Registrations Office requires of directors, I could not say for sure on that. However, I know being a director in a company in the State has standards that must be applied. That is the comfort we have from aligning with the Companies Registrations Office.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So we cannot be sure. Do we check on the numbers who are actually in the accommodation? There might supposedly be 70 people in a place, do we check directly to ensure that 70 people are there when they are being billed? How do we know there are not only 30 or 40 in the place?
Mr. David Delaney:
Effectively we have two systems that work in tandem to ensure that we have exact numbers in terms of who is in accommodation at a point in time. We have brought on stream in the last year a Microsoft Dynamics system called Bed Space so that we have full oversight of the system with a modern IT system. In addition to that, we get bed registers in from every provider every week. I have a dedicated team that assesses those and follows up with them. We also have on-the-spot inspections, not just on the inspection-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why have you allowed Ryevale House to be used as a centre if it does not have planning permission?
In respect of Ryevale House when the property was initially offered to us in March 2023 there was an opinion of compliance from an expert provider.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I knew there had not been compliance. It was simple. If you look at the legislation, it shows that a residence could not be used. That was a residence. It is simple and straightforward. Kildare County Council has said it does not have planning permission. An Bord Pleanála says it does not have planning permission. You have one arm of the State working against other arms of the State. How is this allowed?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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An Bord Pleanála made a decision. Kildare County Council made a decision, yet the Department is deciding not to go with it. The Department is working against An Bord Pleanála, the local people and Kildare County Council. That is the position. Does Mr. Delaney know there is no running water in Ryevale House?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Delaney answered it. The Department is waiting for a judicial review. At the same time, An Bord Pleanála has made a decision and Kildare County Council also made a decision. The Department is just delaying matters.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----the Department is working against Kildare County Council and An Bord Pleanála. They have made decisions and the Department has made its own decision to sit and wait while a decision is made on the judicial review. Is Mr. Delaney aware that there is no running water or certainly not enough water for the people in Ryevale House?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is not enough running water. There is a water tanker.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is not sufficient running water.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Delaney know where the provider was receiving the water from up to two weeks ago?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where was the company in question getting the water for that tanker?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Was the contractor doing it to the appropriate standard?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The contractor was not doing it to an appropriate standard.
This will be my final question. Why did the Department say there was a protest that would not allow the water connection to be fixed from Uisce Éireann to the house when that was completely wrong? Mr. Delaney said a protest would not allow the water to be connected. The actual position is that Uisce Éireann is not able to work on a site on which there is an unauthorised development. Is that not correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No. What is the answer? Why can Uisce Éireann not work on Ryevale House?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not allowed to. It is an unauthorised development.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not allowed to. Once it was pointed out that it was an unauthorised development, Uisce Éireann said it could not do the work. Mr. Delaney said it was because of the protest. That was not the case. Mr. Delaney should regret that comment.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, it was incorrect because, if Mr. Delaney looks it up, he will find that Uisce Éireann cannot work on a site that has an unauthorised development. Once that was highlighted to Uisce Éireann, it pulled the plug.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was not allowed to.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Has it been able to make it? No-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----because it is not legally allowed to.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Neville. Our next questioner is Deputy Bennett.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everybody here today. I would also like to express my anger in relation to the ten-year-old child that was neglected by the State and nobody knew where they were. Controls should be in place. I commend the Garda on the work it is doing at the moment.
Would the witnesses say that it is fair to describe the findings in the report by the Comptroller and Auditor General in relation to IPAS accommodation contracted by the Department as poor and inconsistent and that due diligence on the Department’s part has been absent?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I tried to put the matter in context in my opening remarks. There is no doubt that in 2022 and 2023, the team was operating in a state of emergency and that things were not done in the way we would want to do them now and that we do them now. The report from the Comptroller and Auditor General is really helpful because we have made a huge change in how the thing is done.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am delighted to hear that. Everything is in place now. Of the accommodation the Department secured at the time, only half was contracted. Everybody has a contract now, I presume, and everything is in place.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a contract in place now?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the position now?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department does not have contracts in place now.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For every unit of accommodation.
Mr. David Delaney:
To clarify, when we are in the negotiating process for a contract that has been renewed, a contract may expire at that point. We are not going to just go with the price the provider is looking for at that stage. If it overruns for a month or two, we will insist on engaging in the negotiations and getting it done. Another delaying factor is that if the paperwork we require, be it around planning, fire certification or insurance, needs to be provided, and that is delaying the signing or renewal-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that person cut off if they cannot provide fire certificates and insurance? They do not get a contract at that point.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many contracts?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many contracts does the Department have in place at the moment?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Delaney can get back to me on that. How often do inspections happen in respect of each of those contracts?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many staff does the Department have to do that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Twelve staff to carry out 320 inspections.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department contracts out as well.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much does the contract for carrying out inspections cost?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. On the inspections and the payments made to the providers, the payment goes out on a per-person basis. When the inspector goes out to inspect, will they see how many people are present in the accommodation? Will they have the names of all those who are supposed to be there?
Mr. David Delaney:
The inspection team would check that rooms are up to an appropriate standard. Food, cleanliness, heating, child safety protocols and all those very important things are also checked. In terms of confirming how many people are in a centre, we have weekly checks on that and further spot-checks that are separate from our inspection regime.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who carries out those inspections?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They do those weekly. How many people are doing those inspections?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Five or six staff are out inspecting 320 properties each week.
Mr. David Delaney:
We also have a resident welfare team that would go to properties to support residents in times of need. They would also check bed capacity and bed usage. Between our ongoing inspection regime to ensure contract compliance, they would check bed usage and capacity, our resident welfare team would do something similar. We also have a separate team that is trying to make sure that beds are being utilised and that we are maximising our system.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Not that many contracts have been exited, though. There are 300.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms McPhillips feel the Department has got good value from all these contracts?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Some of these accommodation providers have made huge profits. Has there been any procurement in relation to that? How much money are these providers actually entitled to earn from contracts? Is there a set price? Usually, if you go in for procurement on anything, there is a price listed before someone starts. Has that happened?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It seems to be a very tight ship in that the Department does not provide the providers’ names. Nor does it provide the rate cards, so nobody knows who the providers are or what is on the rate cards. It is a very closed shop as far as I can see.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on. The Department charges VAT on food. Is that all, or does it not charge VAT on food but on-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does the Department charge VAT on those?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So the provider charged the Department VAT on the accommodation?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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And on the food as well.
Mr. David Delaney:
It depends on the set-up and what the facility is providing. Some facilities provide different services. If it is emergency accommodation, if it is specifically direct provision, by and large, that is VAT exempt. As I pointed out, however, that rule has changed, and they were-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So it was VAT exempt but they charged VAT.
Mr. David Delaney:
On other services that would have been provided. It would have been beyond emergency accommodation or direct provision services. As I say, different contracts have different requirements.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why would they have different requirements? Should they not all be the same?
Mr. David Delaney:
Some providers provide meals and food, and that would be part of the contract, depending on how it is provided, whereas others do not provide any food but do have food preparation facilities. Separately, we have a points system, which has a cash value, which our residents can then use in local shops, and they can make their own food. In those circumstances, you are in a very different context.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to domestic violence refuge centres in the context of Cuan. How much money is the State paying Cuan?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that for accommodation as well?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on. One in four women in this country experiences domestic abuse. In relation to the Department's commitment to increase refuge spaces in Ireland, how is that going and what number are we at this year in the context of domestic abuse spaces?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is supposed to be a domestic abuse refuge in every county in Ireland. I come from County Monaghan. There is no domestic abuse refuge in either Cavan or Monaghan. That was supposed to be coming on track for years. It has still has not happened. I have been hearing that it would be coming on track for a long time.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is good news. It is good to hear that there is going to be one in each county. When we have the witnesses back in again in a few months, I will be delighted to hear that they have both opened. That will be great news.
Can the witnesses tell me in relation to-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As an elected representative, I have been hearing about this for 12 years.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will go back to the numbers. How many refuge spaces do we have at present?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I do not have that number in front of me. However, at the beginning of the strategy, we had 141. The target is somewhere around 280, that is, to double the number over the lifetime of the strategy. We are on target to do that. By the end of next year, we are on target to have 52 additional new family refuge units and 45 new safe homes. At that stage, there will also be 50 units still under construction. The strategy will exceed its targets over the course of the next couple of years.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to hear. I look forward to that, because it is much needed. As we know, 37 women have been killed in the past five years-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----so it is very important that we progress this. I do not know why it is taking so long. That is my issue. It is taking a long time.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but it is getting more dangerous.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are any of the new units actually refurbished units? Will they have additional numbers or are they the same numbers again but are just being refurbished?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So Ms McPhillips is saying by the end of the year we will have 282.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy. You will have an opportunity to come in for a supplementary contribution.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Our next questioner is Deputy McAuliffe.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McPhillips and all the other witnesses. A bit like the previous questioner, the range of issues I could raise with them reflects the range of responsibilities they have. Also, given all the statements that have been made by everybody else, and I would agree with them, this is an incredibly sensitive time. Equally, however, our role is to ensure that there is good value for the public money that is raised. The scale of the spending we are talking about here, particularly in relation to international protection, is of such an order - for example, the entire tax package available in the budget was €1.5 billion - that when we are talking about an accommodation system that is costing in that order, it just shows the scale of spending. As well as the justice committee, there is a big job for this committee to do in monitoring what is happening within the Department.
To help me get to the bottom of some figures, for 2024 I have seen a figure of 33,000 in international protection and a figure of €1.1 billion and a separate figure of €3 billion for the cost of accommodation. Could the witnesses help us get to the facts of some of those figures? How many were in international protection for that period and what were the accommodation costs?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That is from a Sunday Times article which I-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps it included other elements.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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So the figure is €1.1 billion.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so the total figure would be €2.1 billion.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When you divide the 33,000 into that figure, you do not get the figure of €71 that was referenced earlier.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the witnesses could tell us why it does not. Mr. Delaney might help us.
Mr. David Delaney:
Yes, no problem. The figure of €71 per person per night is the average contracted rate for each bed, whereas the cost across the system would include many more things like funding local authority integration teams, paying for taxis and buses and loads of other different services around the system. We are looking at a very big gap for that reason. In fairness to the Deputy, it was a very specific question about what the contracted rate is.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, so there is a broader cost than just accommodation. The reason I ask that question is that I was reading the OECD report with regard to the Development Assistance Committee, that is, the DAC-able element, and it has a cost per refugee for different OECD countries. The UK was the highest at $26,400, but Ireland was second at $19,400. Have we looked at other countries and the cost of refugee protection in Ireland as opposed to there? It would appear, in the context of that report - and I accept I am throwing at a report at the witnesses, poorly referenced - that we are a complete outlier in terms of the cost per refugee that we are reporting.
Mr. David Delaney:
I am happy to take that. Unfortunately, I have also read the report so I am aware of it. It is an interesting read and it has informed decision-making. Probably one difference in Ireland compared to other OECD countries is that the surge impacted not just IPAS but the whole international protection system. While brilliant work is being done in the International Protection Office and the International Protection Appeals Tribunal, processing times have increased, which means people are staying in the accommodation for longer. That would be out of the norm compared to other OECD countries. As well as that, because of the excellent work done by colleagues on the processing side, an awful lot of people have got permissions, and rightly so, but because of the challenges of getting accommodation in Ireland, be it HAP-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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For example, that report references-----
Mr. David Delaney:
That makes it difficult to get people out.
However, on top of that, as we have seen in the comprehensive accommodation strategy, owning the centres and using State-owned sites to build on, or using State accommodation, as well as the other factor where other OECD countries are further along the curve and they would have that infrastructure and then their costs-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Let me reference some of those countries. In France and Sweden the figure is approximately $6,500. It is possible that an entirely different package is being offered in Poland, but the figure there is coming in at $1,500 per refugee. It is very difficult to understand the discrepancy in the cost per refugee being reported. Mr. Delaney has referenced the report. People want to know whether we are providing a higher level or a more expensive version. Is the taxpayer in Ireland getting poorer value for money in what is being provided, compared with other OECD countries?
Mr. David Delaney:
There are definitely differences in how the calculations are done. I looked at the Polish example as well. That factors in that an awful lot of people are not necessarily accommodated in the Polish system, or some are in detention facilities that are not necessarily considered reception and accommodation centres by the OECD or the EU asylum agency. That can change the figures considerably. That is a big factor. Comparators are a variable here, but the three variables I outlined-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Given the scale and speed at which the numbers in our system changed, have we put in place a system that is not providing value to the taxpayer? Can Mr. Delaney reassure us that, as we put in place a more public model, that cost will reduce?
Mr. David Delaney:
It absolutely will. We can see the per-person-per night rate in State centres is far lower than the commercial rate. The value already exists there. We can see ourselves getting more value as that State-centred model grows. We have gone from around 900 available State beds approximately two years ago to nearly 4,000 State beds now. We see that as a key in getting more value for money for the taxpayer.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If there is a price per night in the public provision, what is that figure?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is almost half that figure.
Mr. David Delaney:
From a value-for-money perspective, and the rate card we mentioned previously, we have renegotiated over 100 contracts with the rate card, and they have derived savings of over €60 million on a per annum basis. We have reduced the per-person-per-night rate on those 100-plus contracts on average by 23%. We are seeing a lot of gains in those areas, and not just on the State side.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I hear that. I want to return to the evidence given to us a number of weeks ago by Tusla. The figure I was taken aback by related to those in special emergency arrangements. I appreciate that not all of those people are seeking international protection. However, for those in special emergency arrangements, a figure of €750,000 per year was given as being the cost of providing support for an unaccompanied minor, and that had come down from €900,000 per year. It was also acknowledged that there has been a huge influx of those people, reporting to be under 18 years of age, seeking international protection. I think it was a figure of over 500 was presented. As other members have said, in the last number of weeks we have had two very significant incidents. I want to stick with the issue of special emergency arrangements for people seeking international protection. Of those 500 people presenting, how many are in special emergency arrangements? That was funded by the Department of children. Has that responsibility transferred over to the Department of justice?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department of justice have any responsibility for children seeking international protection?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
When a person who is a minor presents at the IPO, there is a process we go through with Tusla. We identify them to Tusla and Tusla then verifies whether they are, in fact, underage or not. If they are, they go into Tusla accommodation and that comes out of the Department of children-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Who assesses their application?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The cost of provision and so on-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It was expressed here that there could be concerns about whether somebody is a child or not. Is that something the Department has examined?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
We have an ongoing process with Tusla, and we have discussed it with that body on several occasions over the last couple of years. It is something we give a lot of attention to, and it is a very difficult call. I recall, during the Ukraine crisis, it is really difficult for a social worker looking at somebody who is 17, 18 or 19 years of age to make the call on what age they are. There are things that flow from that decision, as we have seen as well. Mr. O'Sullivan may wish to go into a little more detail.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
The new international protection Bill specifically provides for new multidisciplinary teams that will work to try to grapple with that challenging question of exactly what age the person is and to make a fair assessment which is safe for that person. That will be a mixture of professionals doing that work. As the Secretary General said, ultimately it is a difficult call when we are talking about whether a person is 17, 18 or 19 years of age. It receives a lot of attention from all of the agencies involved because it is an important decision.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here. Some of my colleagues raised the issue of compliance and non-compliant procurement issues and so on. Ms McPhillips said we are getting better value for money now. To what extent were we not getting value for money?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of an uplift would there have been back in 2022 and 2023?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Were we paying 50% more than we should have?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any estimate of how much we were overpaying? No. Okay. The budget for 2026 is less than the budget for 2024. It is at €1.8 billion. Can the witnesses explain the rationale behind that?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
A good bit of that is on the Ukraine side, where we are exiting accommodation at the moment and pulling back on that expenditure. That is happening in the course of this year and we expect it to happen more during next year as well. That is where that comes from. There is roughly €700 million provided for Ukraine in this year and that is €170 million less next year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the volume of international protection seekers, Ms McPhillips does not anticipate that coming down next year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That prompts my next question. What is the average processing time for an international protection seeker?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
The accelerated process takes around four months, the median ordinary time is about 14 months, and it is about a year at appeal. The EU migration and asylum pact processing times are what we aim to do from next summer and will have the accelerated cases end-to-end in three months and the ordinary cases in six months. We have a huge amount of work under way to meet those targets. This is key to the strategy. When we add the number in the system to the average price, that is what drives-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What percentage would typically be under the accelerated programme?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It varies from month to month, but it can be up to 40% are under it in some months. At the moment, we have people who came in July and August who have been processed right through the system through to appeal and actually through to deportation stage now. Some of it is quite fast.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has the appeals process been streamlined? Yes. In the past, one would hear stories of people being here a couple of years. Are the witnesses saying that is not going to happen in the future?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
Absolutely. As well as investing heavily in the first stage of the process, we have massively increased the resources at second stage and we are also introducing the legislative changes in the EU migration and asylum pact that will come into effect next summer which will further streamline the second stage, so it will inherently take less time.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The main focus is trying to drive down the processing time-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the witnesses feel they are making good progress. Previously it was said that the vast majority of applicants, or certainly a high number of them, were coming in from Northern Ireland. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What plan is in place to address that issue? Obviously, we do not have a hard border, but we cannot ignore the fact either.
What plan is there to try to address that?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
We work very closely with our Home Office colleagues. We have daily and weekly contact with them at operational and strategic levels. Certainly, the patterns in the UK can impact us. For example, last year, there was an issue with Jordanians coming via the UK and we worked with the UK to stem that, which resolved that particular issue. It is a question of keeping in close contact because things that happen in their system can impact ours.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Going back to processing, what percentage are ultimately approved protection?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Roughly 80% of people are not approved.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What happens when they are not approved?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
When somebody comes to the end of the process, unless there are some particular humanitarian reasons why they should remain, we expect that they will leave. Our preference is that they leave voluntarily. We put an awful lot of work into encouraging people to do so. About 1,300 people have left voluntarily this year. We have a new scheme at the moment where we are increasing the amount of funding to try to encourage people to take up that option because it is much cheaper and easier for everyone if they do so. If people do not take that option, in most cases a deportation order will be made for them and in most cases people comply with that order and leave.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How many deportations have taken place to date?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There have been 3,000 deportation orders.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is happening with the 2,700?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do we know where each of those individuals is at any time?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
This is a question that comes up for us a lot and obviously it is a concern for us. There are not exit controls on the island or in the jurisdiction so there is no way to definitively sign somebody out of the country. Any analysis we do, any signs-of-life checks around social protection and accommodation, and a lot of work the Garda does here and in partnership with other police forces would suggest to us that in most cases people go.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it fair to say that there are those who have not been granted protection and who are out there in the country and we do not know where they are? They are not within the system any longer.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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But they can be living out there in the community.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is concerning that there is not a greater tracking system in place for people who have not been granted protection. It seems as if we almost just say, "Now you need to go."
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It just strikes me as being a bit loose.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are making payments to those individuals for voluntary return. What is the payment?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is "a small amount of money"?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Would we have a figure for how much was paid last year for that reason, for people to voluntarily leave? Would we have an overall, macro figure?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
In 2024, it was roughly €250,000. In 2025, to the end of September, it was €379,000. In terms of the costs we have just discussed with Mr. Delaney and so forth, it represents good value for money. As Mr. O'Sullivan has said, a person can only use that money in their home country. We give them a prepaid card.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to turn to the Prison Service, if I may. The overcapacity issue is well documented. Does that result in some prisons being a dangerous place?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
I think we are doing an incredible job on the ground to keep everybody safe. Fortunately, we have seen a small reduction in prisoner-on-prisoner assaults and we have not witnessed any increase in prisoner-on-staff assaults. There is a very specific reason for that. We are not in a position to control the number of people in our custody but we have been augmenting the staff that are available on the landing and that has proved very successful in keeping people safe.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not being rude but I am caught for time and I have just a couple of quick questions. Ms McCaffrey said earlier that the service cannot refuse a committal and I understand that, but is it not the case that what really happens is someone else is just released early to allow a space to be freed up? What are the early-release figures?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
Today, we have 574 people on temporary release. We have a number of schemes in place. Historically, when we had overcrowding back in the last 2000s, we just released people early. We now have schemes where we are releasing people with support. For people serving longer sentences, they swap prison time for Probation Service time and they have supports in the community. For people serving shorter sentences, they are linked in with NGOs.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the average length of time someone serves as their sentence?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
Our community support scheme is for people who serve sentences up to 18 months. The primary consideration is public safety. That is the factor that is taken into account. There is no specific maximum sentence a person needs to serve, but we would be looking at people who present a low risk to public safety and who are in for lower types of offences. For community return, that applies to people serving 18 months up to eight years. For people serving between two and five years, they can be released after half of their remitted sentence.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the up-to-date figure for reoffending rates? I think it is somewhere around 50% if I am right.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is extraordinarily high.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
The important thing to note is that people might make gains when they are in our custody. They might deal with their addiction or get a skill or education or training. If they go back to the community without the supports they require in place, there is a high probability that they will go back to offending.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Are we going past 12 o'clock?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will take a sos after your turn, Deputy.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses. At a previous appearance at the public accounts committee by the former Garda Commissioner Drew Harris, I asked about the stay of a garda and his wife at the Westbury Hotel. I have since met with the anti-corruption unit. What communication has the Department had with the new Commissioner in relation to any anti-corruption issues within An Garda Síochána and in particular in relation to the case I raised at the committee?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has the Garda Commissioner raised this issue in particular?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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He has never raised the issue of this garda.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Ms McPhillips, therefore, has not spoken to the Garda Commissioner about this.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay, so the Garda Commissioner has definitely not----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Not at all. I am just asking.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. In relation to the importation of firearm component parts for privately owned firearms, my party colleague Deputy Alan Kelly has raised this through parliamentary questions on a number of occasions since the Thirty-fourth Dáil began. The Department would be well aware of privately owned firearms, not official Garda firearms, being imported into the State by An Garda Síochána's firearms store section.
The unique aspect to this particular squandering of Exchequer funding is that it was conducted by way of fraudulent deception of the Department.
In response to a parliamentary question from Deputy Kelly, it was said Department officials were deceived by portraying items imported as part of official Garda firearms, when in fact the parts were shown to be service and repair firearms belonging to a hunt and pony club. Former Commissioner Drew Harris was aware of this long before he was replaced by new Commissioner Justin Kelly. He chose not to take any action against those involved. As per parliamentary question replies from the Department, he deliberately neglected to inform the Minister for justice and the Department. Is that correct?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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They were received through parliamentary question.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Within the parliamentary question, it literally stated he deliberately neglected to inform the Minister for justice.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can Ms McPhillips talk in general terms without getting into the specifics?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What is the official line on that now?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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On that case I have just mentioned. If Ms McPhillips will not reply on that case-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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My question is this: what people are being held to account in respect of the financial management of importing firearms into the State that are not being utilised by Garda members?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Despite the fact the matter was raised in a parliamentary question.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We have to err on the side of caution. If the Secretary General is saying it is subject to an investigation, we need to hear that and be cautious. We can speak in general terms but on the specific substance we need to be careful.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. I will move on so. I will continue to reference the Committee of Public Accounts meeting we had with former Commissioner Harris. From that meeting and from media reports, the Department will be well aware of the purchase of defective leather pistol holsters by An Garda Síochána. At that meeting, I raised with the Garda Commissioner his endeavour to recover all public funds expended as part of the holster contract. Does Ms McPhillips know what the figure was in relation to defective holsters?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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An investigation is not ongoing in relation to defective holsters.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What are the allegations?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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This is unbelievable. We have a Department before us. An Garda Síochána is within the remit of the Department of justice.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Absolutely not. I did not suggest that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There are serious ongoing governance issues within An Garda Síochána. I have asked a certain amount of questions and none of those questions have been answered.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Again Deputy Kenny, we need to err on the side of caution. The Secretary General is saying there is an ongoing investigation into the allegations. The Secretary General alluded to the financial aspect of the question falling within the remit of the Accounting Officer for An Garda Síochána. The question might be whether the Secretary General is aware of anything via the Garda in relation to that. Has she had any communications with the Garda on the specific financial element of the question?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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This is unbelievable. I will move on. I am running out of questions now, nearly. I will ask about the fingerprint system within An Garda Síochána. The Secretary General is not the Accounting Officer and that is fine but is the Department of justice aware of the annual cost of maintaining the system?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Back in 2016, those operating the system gave stark warnings, coupled with those of the vendor and of former Commissioner Harris. Were those disregarded by Department officials?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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My understanding is Commissioner Harris, along with the vendor and those operating the fingerprint system, raised serious concerns about the system and that they were disregarded by Department officials, in relation to wanting to purchase a new system, which would have cost around €20 million.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It was in 2020 that he made the case to the Department.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I think the automated fingerprint identification system, AFIS, is the system the Deputy is talking about. It is the subject of a major upgrade at present. It will be replaced in due course as well but is the subject of an upgrade at present. A stabilisation process has been done and funding was extended for that, as I understand. I am not sure I can put it any further than that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Following an appearance at the justice committee, the Garda said €40 million has been spent on keeping that system since 2017 and that 17,000 fingerprints had disappeared from the system. Is the Department aware of that?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I am before the committee to account for the Department of justice, which is a very wide-ranging Department. I am not in a position to deal with other Votes. There is the Garda Vote, the courts Vote and the data protection Vote - they all have their own Accounting Officers. I am not across the detail of their Votes because I am not accountable or responsible for them.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Could the Department provide the remuneration package given to former Commissioner Harris and new Commissioner Kelly in writing please?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Not that I am aware of.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful if Ms McPhillips could furnish the committee with it.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
No problem. Again, it is not paid out of the justice Vote, just to be clear about that, but I am happy to forward a copy of the PQ to the Chair. No problem at all.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I call our next questioner, Deputy Geoghegan.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for attending. Like many of the other speakers, I want to express at the outset my sorrow for the young girl who has been the subject of an alleged sexual assault, and to the Ukrainian who has lost his life. It is important to emphasise that both of these children, one of whom is dead and the other who is alleged to have been sexually assaulted, were in the care of the State. There is no avoiding or evading that responsibility. The efforts, essentially, of people to gather outside Citywest in my view is an effort to dehumanise those acts. It is to perpetuate the othering. We should constantly remember the victims at the coalface of all this, while at the same time hold to account in the Committee of Public Accounts the State's obligation to these human beings and what they have suffered. It is really important to emphasise that because no efforts to dehumanise what took place should get any truck from any politician, and we should stand four square behind our gardaí in the efforts they are making to keep communities safe.
I am going to continue the line of questioning in relation to the IPAS system. In the previous Government, a decision was taken to separate the accommodation of international applicants from the decision-making in respect of international applicants. Did that cause a dysfunction in the system as it relates to international applicants?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I do not think so. It is better now, and the joined-up aspect of the system certainly makes sense to us. However, that was the decision taken, and we made the best of it. We worked very closely, and continue to work very closely, with our colleagues who transferred to the Department of children. I would make the point that, in 2020, roughly 50 or 60 people went to the Department of children, with about €120 million of a budget, and it was considerably larger when it returned to us. The team did an amazing job over the last few years. Certainly, from now going forward and into the pact arrangements, it is definitely useful to have it all together.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why is it useful? Why is it better than it is now within the domain of the decision-makers and the accommodators, as it were?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Did the Department have any concerns about that function being removed from the Department back in the previous Government when it was being moved over?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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My question was did the Department have any concerns at that time when it was being moved out from the Department? Did it raise or flag any concerns at that time?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Obviously, the situation in respect of that poor girl who was allegedly sexually assaulted is that she was an unaccompanied minor. Two weeks ago, representatives from Tusla appeared before the committee and we were dealing with the subject of unaccompanied minors in the IPAS system. I put the question to them in respect of unaccompanied minors and missing children, of which there were several, and they put it in terms of days how long they were missing. I asked whether there had been any bad outcomes and the reply given at that stage was that there had not been. Obviously, since then, in less than 20 days, there have been these two horrific tragedies. One of the things that Tusla did identify is that it is Tusla's responsibility, or it is left with the responsibility, to age verify the unaccompanied minors it is looking after in a kind of colloquial way because it is relying on the Department or An Garda Síochána or whosever responsibility it is to carry out that process, but it is actually not being carried out in a timely fashion. Does Ms McPhillips accept that criticism or that contention?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
To explain the process and just to clarify, the Ukrainian boy who died was not an unaccompanied minor. I do not want to comment on a case, but I do not think the little girl who has been mentioned several times here this morning is within the international protection, IP, system at all. It is just to clarify that.
The other issue is in relation to the verification of age. That process is one for Tusla. What happens is that people come into the International Protection Office, IPO, to our staff. We have staff seconded from Tusla in the IPO or certainly we make arrangements to identify-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Just on the age verification, the Tusla representatives were quite critical in respect of being left with the responsibility, essentially, to sort of look at the child or person before them and guess basically whether he or she is a minor or not a minor. They were quite critical that the function, which rests with the Department, as best as I understand it, was not being carried out in a timely way. Does Ms McPhillips accept that criticism?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So Ms McPhillips does not accept that there is any delay in age verification in respect of unaccompanied minors that are in Tusla's care.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
I think it is accepted that the current arrangements are not as fast as they should be. As I referred to earlier, one of the objectives in the pact is to introduce a new position and to clarify the position in law as to who will be doing this, because I think the issue was that-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In light of what has taken place, and I take Ms McPhillips' point, and I apologise if I misspoke, in respect of the ten-year-old girl, if there are adults in Tusla centres who are dealing with unaccompanied minors ranging in age, does Ms McPhillips accept that would be a very serious concern from a safeguarding perspective?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Sullivan just said that there is a problem in the process. He just acknowledged that. What is the Department doing to rectify that problem, particularly in light of the challenges we have seen over the recent days?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I understand all that. I am just talking about the Department's obligation on age verification. Mr. O'Sullivan acknowledged that there is a delay - am I right in that? - and that it is not being done in a timely way.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How long is that process taking right now?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan have an average time?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is this something it is a priority to rectify?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The pact is going to be brought through pursuant to primary legislation. The pact is coming at it from a policy level. Is the Department fixing this? That is the challenge.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
A lot of work has been done between us, the IPO and Tusla to try to reduce these problematic cases and to come to a fair decision on them. Ultimately, however, we need to change the legislation. That legislation would provide for new multidisciplinary teams. The function will formally be assigned to the Department under the pact legislation in a clearer way than is currently the case. The plan is that they-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We are going to be waiting a long time for the law to pass. In the meantime, however, there could be adults in Tusla-run centres for unaccompanied minors roaming with other children. In light of what has just taken place, is this not an absolute priority for the Department to ensure there are not adults mixing with unaccompanied children in centres, which have increased quite dramatically over the last three years in terms of the number of unaccompanied minors for whom Tusla has responsibility?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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However, the function is within the Department. Am I wrong in that?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There seems to be a problem in the process. The Tusla representatives have set it out to us. I am putting to Ms McPhillips what they have said to us.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It seems to be significant. I will have to move on as my time is short. I can come back to this.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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If Ms McPhillips does not mind, I want to finish my questions to Mr. Delaney. How many international protection applicants who have been granted refugee status currently reside in IPAS centres?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There are 5,000 people who have been granted status and are living in international protection accommodation centres. Mr. Delaney mentioned that this was a factor in Ireland's costs being larger than comparator European countries. What can be done in respect of that issue?
Mr. David Delaney:
A lot of work has been done. We have two NGOs that work with people who have a permission in centres to help them exit, integrate into the local communities, find accommodation and move on. While we have nearly 5,000 with permission in the system at the moment, over the last two and a half years or so, 10,000 people with permission have moved out of international protection accommodation.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What is the average duration of stay of the 5,000 post being granted status?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I would ask the Department to share that information with us.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Although I do not want to misquote him, I think Mr. Delaney said something extraordinary when he was being asked by Deputy Neville about the beneficial ownership of companies that the Department is contracting with, and how the Department knows there is no criminality involved. Mr. Delaney pointed him to the Companies Registration Office. He is hardly suggesting that a company having been registered with the Companies Registration Office is sufficient to satisfy the Department that a company, or people involved in a company, are not engaged in criminality. I presume additional due diligence is carried out when the Department is contracting with an entity responsible for providing accommodation services within the IPAS system.
Mr. David Delaney:
In terms of directors and requirements for directors, the CRO number would give us some comfort in that regard. We look for a personal declaration, as part of the application for accommodation with ourselves, that a person has not been convicted of a crime and that there are no concerns in terms of-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Delaney refers to “a person”, who would that person be?
Mr. David Delaney:
I can confirm that exactly. It depends on the construction of the company. In some companies, it is very black and white: there is one owner, so we can do that very simply. However, as the Deputy can imagine, there are very large companies - I do not mean in our world but more broadly - that could have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of shareholders. It does not mean the company has a problem. That has to be a factor as well.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does every company owner that the Department has established to be an owner have to carry out what Mr. Delaney describes as a personal declaration?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is that done under the Garda National Vetting Bureau? Are they vetted or what happens?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is a declaration stating they are not involved in criminality.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to follow on directly from Deputy Geoghegan’s input. Has every contractor provided that statutory declaration before a contract is signed?
Mr. David Delaney:
At the moment, for all new contracts and all renewals, that is required. For contracts that may have been entered into in 2022 or 2023, or into phases of 2024, I could not guarantee that is the case. However, for all contracts from providers back in that phase, when they come to renew, that will be required.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why was it introduced?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Am I right to infer that contracts signed or entered into in 2022 and 2023 potentially do not have that as part of the robust check? Are there potentially still contractors in this position today?
Mr. David Delaney:
That is correct. This has to be seen through the lens that from early 2022 to the end of 2023, we went from 7,000 beds to 27,000 beds. As the Secretary General outlined, especially with the Ukraine numbers that were coming in, it was a time when a massive priority was put on getting beds as quickly as humanly possible. The civil servants and communities involved in that deserve credit for the work that was done. Now, we are in a phase of getting control of the system.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is done automatically.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If they do not provide that, the contract is not entered into.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that the only grounds to terminate a contract?
Mr. David Delaney:
No. We would have a very strict inspection regime. I mentioned previously that we have done over 300 inspections so far in 2025. We also have the HIQA inspection regime, which inspected over 50 centres in 2024 and should do the same again in 2025. That regime includes any information that is brought to light or brought to us. If contractors do not meet the standard required, they are given time to rectify that, and if they do not rectify it quickly enough, we dock their payment by 10%. If they do not rectify it after that, we will then move to terminating. We have terminated 17 contracts so far this year, proving we have a strict system in place. We will maintain that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many of the providers are there currently? Is it the same number? Is it 269 for 2025, or are there more than 269?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Have they all provided tax clearance certificates?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has Ryevale been inspected in 2025?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I assume the water infrastructure was inspected as part of that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was it deemed satisfactory at that point?
Mr. David Delaney:
It was. That inspection was partially triggered by a concern raised by a stakeholder that maybe the water supply was not sufficiently pressurised. We checked that and the water was working perfectly. It was an unannounced inspection so there was no chance for anyone to get anything ready in advance.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When we speak about water in Ryevale, at what point did the Department become aware that there was no mains connection to Ryevale House?
Mr. David Delaney:
We would have known for years that the provider needed to tanker in water to supplement the mains supply. It only came to light recently that there may have been issues with that, but in terms of being aware of the tanker, it was definitely a thing we would have required to make sure there was sufficient water in the accommodation.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My colleague Catherine Murphy received a parliamentary question response from the Department of children to say there was an adequate water supply service at the site in 2023. It has come to pass that the water for that service was being drawn in a somewhat illegal fashion. Would Mr. Delaney accept that, based on the report he has seen?
Mr. David Delaney:
We are investigating those reports. Obviously, that is alleged as opposed to confirmed. I cannot make any comment or assertions in terms of an allegation. We are looking into this. We take it very seriously. I can confirm that the provider we have the contract with is no longer contracted with the water company that is alleged to have been involved in this instance, and has a new service in place. That is the current state of play.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would planning law or the local authorities not play an important role in the decision to sign a contract with a provider?
Mr. David Delaney:
Yes. One of the requirements we now have for new contracts and a renewal stage contract is that there must be a section 5 declaration from the local authority that the property in question is an exempted development and can accommodate international protection applicants. Therefore, whatever its previous status was is in the list that allows it to become an international protection accommodation centre. That process is now in place and is very strict. That is how we deal with those.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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All new contracts and all renewals will have that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Where that section 5 declaration is not in place, it is fair to assume that no contract will be signed after that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many bedrooms are there in Ryevale House?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No, I mean bedrooms.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are potentially averaging four or five to a room, therefore.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Given the inspections, the Department is confident there is a level of privacy in place in an arrangement like this.
Mr. David Delaney:
Yes, we have national standards, which were first drafted in 2019 and agreed and implemented around 2021 or 2022. It is a standard that we try to get to, although it is not necessarily in place everywhere, that in a bedroom area, each resident has 4.65 sq. m of space. Ryevale House meets that standard, so we consider that to be appropriate and adequate.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Before I ask about a more generalised point, with regard to Ryevale, if a section 5 declaration is not in place, the contract will not be renewed.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When is that due for renewal in Ryevale House?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My next question is for Ms McPhillips. I watched with great enthusiasm as the Departments were formed and the transfer of responsibility from what was a huge Department, and what an acronym it had with DCEDIY, to the Department of justice. Will Ms McPhillips capture what institutional knowledge would have been lost in that transfer, if any? Deputy Geoghegan touched on this but in terms of personnel did people move with the transfer?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The people move, the money moves and the whole shebang moves. Obviously, my counterpart, the Secretary General in that Department, brought his own strategic direction to the thing over the past few years but Mr. Delaney and his team, the Ukraine team and our integration all moved over.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Everyone moved.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was €978 million in expenditure for accommodation with contractors in 2024. Apologies if I have missed this already but what is the expected expenditure in 2025?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has any work been done on a feasibility study with the Department of public expenditure or internally in the Department to show this is the most cost-effective approach, never mind quality? Is this approach cost-effective in the long term with regard to the way in which we provide accommodation?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The policy direction is very much towards State owned because we know we can get better value and we have the evidence for this in relation to State-owned properties. As Mr. Delaney said earlier, we had roughly 900 people in State-owned accommodation, I think, at the beginning of last year. We have roughly 4,000 at the moment. This will definitely impact our costs over the medium term. We are increasing the proportion-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is the Department receiving capital funding to match the policy stance on this? I assume it will require purchase and works. Is the funding matching the policy in this regard?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That probably reduces the impressiveness of the financial feat if it is case by case, as opposed to a more structured approach.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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To purchase?
Mr. David Delaney:
To bring in capital solutions, whether it is through purchase or build or whatever we see as the most cost-effective way to do it. As the Secretary General pointed out, there is also a commitment on top of this, that if there are unique cost-effective solutions there is capacity to go beyond the budgetary commitment. It is good to have the budgetary commitment. It definitely gives us a direction of travel and allows us to negotiate on a certain number of contracts knowing that we have the capital.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have one more very brief question before I finish. With regard to the conversation with Deputy Geoghegan on question marks about age verification, how many people are there whose age we cannot prove or the Department is unaware as to whether they are children or adults?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I know from my conversations with Tusla, and at present it is the responsibility of Tusla to say whether a person is under age or an adult, it would give the benefit of the doubt where it has a doubt. In lots and lots of cases it would form a view that the person is an adult and return them to us. They are then accommodated in IPAS accommodation. If it is a very borderline case they would give the benefit of the doubt to the potential child and make a decision on that basis.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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But Ms McPhillips says she regularly communicates with Tusla. Surely she has an idea of the scale of this potential problem. It is purported to be an issue.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I do not think it leaves people in limbo, so to speak. It makes a determination. I would have to check, as I said to Deputy Geoghegan. I did not see the examination of Tusla by the committee. While my team is dealing with Tusla every day, I am not speaking to it on the detail of this myself every day. I will come back to Deputy Farrelly.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would appreciate it if Ms McPhillips could follow up on this.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le hOonagh McPhillips agus le chuile dhuine atá anseo inniu. I want to frame this conversation very clearly. There are so many people who come into our country and contribute immensely, whether in our hospitals, in our tech companies, right across our society, and in our nursing homes. People make massive contributions. They come into this country via a structured system, whether it is the work permit system or a visa system, and they contribute immensely. This country would be lost without them. Many of them are in my constituency and I am friends with them. I know the value of the work they do. However, without doubt, over the past few years the Irish people have lost their confidence in the State's ability to handle our asylum processing system. Why did the numbers of asylum seekers in Ireland rise from approximately 3,000 per year in 2021 and 2022 to more than 12,000 to 15,000 in the following years?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I thank Deputy Dolan very much for what he has said and I agree fully with him. It was actually much smaller in 2021 and 2022 because of Covid-19. The average per year up to and including 2019 was roughly 3,500 over a prolonged period. Then it shrank because of Covid-19. Then it-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What was it in 2023 and 2024 roughly?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Why did we see such a sharp increase in people arriving into the country and claiming asylum specifically?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the point of entry for the majority of people who sought asylum in this country?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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They are coming over the Border so they may be arriving into Belfast and coming down. Does Ms McPhillips believe we have an asylum crisis at the moment?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I know it is a much smaller percentage and I know we have a significant number of work permits-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but that fivefold increase from what the norm was to now, with more than 13,000, 15,000 and 18,000 per year, is significant. I understand we have to give asylum seekers due process, and there are people coming from harrowing situations but does Ms McPhillips believe our process is being abused?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that but does Ms McPhillips believe there are people out there who are coming into this country, chancing their arm seeking asylum?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to know does Ms McPhillips believe people are chancing their arm?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay I will ask a different question.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. What percentage of asylum applications are being refused currently?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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So eight out of ten of asylum applicants in this country right now are being refused. I understand Ms McPhillips cannot use the language I have used but I would call that chancing their arm if eight out of ten are not eligible.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand Ms McPhillips has a job to do and she has to process them but what I am trying to establish is that we do have a crisis and we end up having people come here and go through the asylum process, and 80% of them end up being told that they are not eligible and being given an order to deport. What percentage of people are complying with their deportation orders?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
To come back to what we discussed a little bit earlier, our preference would be for people to leave voluntarily. As I have said, we are on our way towards 1,600 people leaving voluntarily this year. Where they do not, we make a deportation order. Our assessment is that in most cases people move when they get that order. In many cases they have moved before that because they know their case is heading in that direction.
We then, in a smaller proportion of cases, take people into custody and remove them, either on commercial flights or on charter flights. As we process more cases, we are investing more resources in scaling this up.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that and I want to move on. I have been doing a lot of work on purchase orders and public procurement. Does the Department intend to publish its purchase orders in a machine-readable format on its website?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is perfect. I really do appreciate that because we have had great success with many Departments in getting them to publish those figures. I am really hopeful to see that from the Department soon because the Department of children has been doing it to date, so we were able to garner a lot of information. The most frightening piece of information we gathered was that, over the last decade, the top 25 suppliers of accommodation to the Department of children and now to the Department of justice across 4,248 records, accounted for €2.073 billion worth of purchase orders and payments. The Department has to have serious negotiation power with them, so when these contracts come up for renegotiation the downward price pressure the Department should be able to apply to the contracts should be immense. We should see a drastic saving on these accommodation spots in the future, because we cannot see private interests continue to profit from a State crisis. The State needs to be able to respond. The Citywest purchase was the right thing to do because it shows that the State is going to tackle this issue in the long run and the speed at which applicants are being processed is accelerating. The fact that there are 80% refusals shows there is an issue.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is that at present, reflecting the high numbers. The €2 billion figure across the top 25 suppliers is where the greatest amount of savings can be yielded for the Department and for the country.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When did the Department introduce that?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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For the past two or three years, was Mr. Delaney in charge of the IPAS contracts?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so according to the C and AG, one fifth of them had planning and half of them had contracts. If I put up a modular backyard unit tomorrow, the council would be down on me like a ton of bricks. Why is it that the Department has been able to hand out these contracts, with no proper procurement, on an expression of interest, with very few fire certificates and very little compliance? Why has the Department been allowed to do that?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
There was an emergency. In 2022 and 2023, the State was dealing with more than 100,000 people being accommodated, in IPAS centres and in centres for Ukrainian refugees, so it was an emergency that had to be dealt with. I think the team did a really good job in getting people accommodated, and it had to be done.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I think the rule book went out the window, though.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The rule book went out the window, the cheque book was out, and anyone who had any accommodation was being paid head over heels to take the people who were coming in.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips believe that, over the last two or three years, the State has been fleeced?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We had the HSE before the committee last week, and we saw that Covid was a crisis. They relaxed the rules, €15 million went to a company, and now €7 million of that is not recoverable and it is all a disaster. We have the Department of justice in here today - I know it was the responsibility of the Department of children before - and billions of euro has been paid out on accommodation to manage a crisis. The attitude seems to be that it was a crisis so it can be justified. I have crises in my constituency, such as children who cannot get SNAs or other supports. Those are crises and we are not able to take out the cheque book, so I just have a huge issue with that.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have one last question. I believe, in the last few months, there been a marked change in the Department. Since the responsibility for this has gone to the Department of justice, I believe there has been a policy shift. What I am seeing on the ground is that not as many of these contracts are being given out and compliance is becoming rigorous. Things are improving and that reflects the State's ramping-up of its response. Is it true that people are suing the Minister for justice for not giving them IPAS contracts?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Because the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, has clamped down on the handing out of IPAS contracts over the last few months, people are suing him.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to comment on some of the serious failings of the State that a number of members have alluded to. First, I pass on my condolences to the family of the young Ukrainian man who was brutally murdered while in State care in what could be perceived as, and we mentioned this previously in our engagement with Tusla, a questionable usage of unregulated accommodation. There was a gross failure there and it is something the committee intends to follow up on with Tusla and to express serious concerns. My thoughts go to the family and the ten-year-old child who was allegedly brutally sexually assaulted. My thoughts are with the child and the child's family. Again, this was a serious failure of the State on so many different levels. While I understand the huge level of concern among members of the public about these serious failings, I do not think there is any justification for anyone violently engaging to express those concerns they have or attacking members of An Garda Síochána. There are other ways for members of the public to express their concerns and fears and people should be going down those routes. However, here has been a serious failure of the State in regard to these issues.
I commend the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for a considerable piece of work in the chapter on IPAS expenditure. I believe that the work went on for nearly a year so I commend the team on that work. Certainly, the chapter is damning and has put a spotlight on huge expenditure with a real lack of due diligence and payment controls. It feeds into a perception of many members of the public that money was being poured into an area without the proper oversight or governance, so we are here today to discuss that.
I have read through the witnesses' opening statements and I have heard them here again today. Do you think the C and AG's report is damning?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of migration is a challenge, not just here in Ireland but globally, due to measures outside of our control. Whether it is global warming, war or famine, all of these are leading to an increase in immigration. While we are not here to talk about Government policy, it is safe to say we need to have a fair, efficient and enforced system to be able to deal with the increased pressure. Do we have a fair, efficient and enforced immigration system?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I think we have made great strides in recent years. We have certainly put a lot of resources into all aspects of the system, particularly, as I said in my opening statement, the IPO first, but also IPAT. We have put a lot of resources into what we call our repatriation unit, which deals with deportations and voluntary returns. All of this is now, I think, yielding results.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The point I would put to Ms McPhillips is I do not think there is fair, efficient and enforced system and those failures have increased the pressures seen with regard to the efficiencies and the length of time it has taken. I hear what Ms McPhillips is saying about the reduced timelines and also the enforcement. I think there have been serious failures there and, again, I will touch on some of those issues around deportation.
To return to the issue of the VAT overpayment of €7.4 million, Ms McPhillips stated that there was a settlement of €1.9 million. Am I correct with that figure?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Just the figure without-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I am a little bit confused around that and I do not think we have the time to go through it now. The Department would have had an outside agency look at that. Did Deloitte look at that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be possible for the Department to furnish this committee with the workings on that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We have the chapter from the C and AG. This issue around the VAT has caused serious concerns. Has that sparked a wider look? The sample that the C and AG's office looked at was 20 properties. Has that report from the C and AG sparked a wider investigation to see whether that VAT issue was more expansive than one individual property?
Mr. David Delaney:
Ultimately, the provider or contractor charges us VAT, where appropriate, as part of the bill. The relationship is between the contractor and the Revenue Commissioners to settle that VAT portion. We do not charge VAT further on down the scheme, as the Chair can imagine. We have a check in our process now whereby when a payment is being authorised, that confirms whether it appears that the VAT rate-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There is now that process but is that retrospective? Of the providers, have any other issues there with regard to invoicing come to light on foot of this piece of work from the C and AG's office?
Mr. David Delaney:
We have not identified anything historically. There have been examples in the past where there might have been overpayments. We have rectified those and got rebates back from the providers in question. That is an ongoing thing. When you have 320-odd providers and a system that is paying out a significant amount of money, you are always going to have a recoupment mechanism in place.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are no other major issues such as this. This was a one-off, as far as Mr. Delaney is concerned.
The C and AG's chapter 10.60 states that a property that had contracted capacity was identified. It included three rooms that were not being used to accommodate IP applicants based on the single-occupancy daily rate of €169 for that property. I suppose it worked out that IPAS was being overcharged by at least €15,000 a month, which is €180,000 a year. There was a piece of work done by the Department that elaborated on that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How long was it in place for?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That figure of €180,000 is what we are looking at. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Again, there is the look-back piece. Did that spark a wider look at other properties with regard to the contracted beds available? Have there been any other examples?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I know what the Department has in place now. I am talking about going back.
Mr. David Delaney:
We would have had a mechanism of checking weekly bed registers as well and, as part of that, it obviously would have lined up what we are contracted on with this provider, and whether that lines up with the number of beds that are available. We would have been checking that routinely as well but the IT system-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Department would have been checking that routinely as well.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Delaney says "routinely", is this over the past number of years it would have been checked routinely?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This was a random sample of 20 properties where this was identified. The process Mr. Delaney spoke to clearly was not working, if one property here was potentially overcharging for three rooms that were not being used by IP to the tune of €180,000. I am asking a specific question. Are there any other cases similar to this in IPAS where the Department of justice has been overcharged for the provision of accommodation that, ultimately, was not being provided?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Can we get specific details on that and the cost-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----and, more importantly, whether that money has been recouped or what mechanism is in place to recoup that money?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. The witnesses gave a figure of 5,000 people who have had their application regularised and are currently in IPAS accommodation. I think that is probably on foot of a number of different issues, one being the housing crisis and the failure of the policy to provide own-door accommodation, etc. There are a number of issues going on there. Would Mr. Delaney agreet this is putting additional pressure on a system that is fundamentally creaking?
Mr. David Delaney:
I would point to the fact that we have moved 10,000 people with permission out of the system in the past two and a half years, which is a significant success in the context of the pressure we are under, but obviously, every bed used by someone with a permission puts on additional pressure.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are 5,000 currently. How many were there last year?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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While people are moving out, the figure is static at approximately 5,000.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. In relation to people who are unsuccessful with their application and who are in receipt of a deportation order, what is the process then if they are currently in IPAS accommodation?
Mr. David Delaney:
At the moment, there is a simple enough process where people are, in the vast majority of cases, expected to move, and do move, out of IPAS accommodation, often in advance of getting the deportation order that they know is on the way. When people get one, it tends to signal to them that now is the moment when it is time to leave accommodation and leave the State.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many of the 33,000 people in the system are in receipt of a deportation order and are currently in IPAS accommodation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What is the average length of time for someone in receipt of a deportation order?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
It would vary considerably. There would be some cases where the person might have continuing legal action against us. We might be injuncted from removing them. There would be some cases where they would be on our books as being in the centre but if the Garda goes to attempt to arrest them-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. O'Sullivan give an example? What is the longest duration currently-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to deportations, the witnesses gave examples of people voluntarily leaving the State. Some statistics were given, but they said they were unable to give accurate figures-----
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
We have very accurate figures for the people who leave as part of the voluntary return programme because we do not give them any funding until they have actually gone home and confirmed it. We publish those figures regularly. I think there were about 1,300 so far this year, and we expect the number to grow a lot. What we do not attempt to put a figure on, for the reason we discussed earlier, is the people who have left without telling us where they were going or what they were doing. We check whether they are on our system and whether they are getting a daily expenses allowance. If the Garda comes across them, they can be arrested and removed. That does not happen very often. It comes back to the idea that we do not have exit checks and do not have other types of internal controls that would allow you to set up-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So there is no mechanism in place across Europe to determine whether the people have applied for asylum in another European country.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sometimes, but there is no-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So, there are no accurate figures we can stand over. I believe that is astonishing.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The evidence we have that people are not by and large here is fairly convincing because we get the Garda to do checks on them for the purpose of finding them for deportation orders. We have given the numbers in relation to deportations and voluntary returns. They are verified. There is another group whose circumstances have not been verified, but the Garda does checks on them from time to time to see whether they are here and in receipt of social welfare. If “No” is the answer to each check, the evidence will be that they have moved on.
The Border is obviously an issue here as well. People come in over the Border-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The last point I wish to touch on concerns the chartered deportation flights. There have been many high-profile flights in the recent past. There is a three-year contract in place for some of the flights and the value is approximately €5 million.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Up to a maximum. How many flights have there been?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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To date. I think there was a flight to Pakistan with 24 individuals on it. It was publicised that it cost €473,000. There have been a number of flights to Georgia and one to Nigeria, at a cost of €530,000. How many people have been deported on chartered flights to date?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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One and a half million euro on commercial flights.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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For 153 individuals. Is that cost not extraordinarily high?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses might furnish the specific details to us.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would like details of the flights, where they were going, the number of individuals and the costs.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips for that.
We will open the discussion to members again for supplementary questions. Our first speaker is Deputy Neville.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I wish to pick up on what the Chair was asking about. I am curious to know whether we are offering people money to leave the State. I hear reports about that. Is it true that we are offering €10,000?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it €10,000 for an individual or for a family?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Up to a maximum, so it is not necessarily €10,000 for an individual.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I just wanted that clarified. The scheme started a few months ago. How long do we think it will it run for?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. O’Sullivan clarify the average cost per person if it is not €10,000?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
I do not have that. It used to be €1,200 for individuals. It was increased in 2020 to €2,000. That would be the typical previous case. We will need to see what mix of people come forward and the different levels. I expect we will be reporting, through parliamentary questions and elsewhere, on exactly that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It could be anywhere between €2,000 and €10,000.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We can only imagine, but there probably will be an increase.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have also heard it reported that there has been a surge in the number of Ukrainians coming over the past few weeks. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is no point hiding it.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it young males who are coming over?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why is that happening?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So, young men are leaving Ukraine to come to Ireland now.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They are coming to Ireland. We are concerned only about Ireland here. Is there a risk of our incentivising them financially to come here over other countries? Is what they receive in Ireland higher on a social welfare scale than what they might receive in France or the UK?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am not talking about them.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I have moved on from that. I am talking about Ukrainians coming here.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will they be able to receive social welfare if they do not get independent living?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is that social welfare more than they would receive in the UK or France?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do you not know the answer to that?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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You are not sure if it is. Okay.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I just thought you should know the answer to that, Doncha. I am sorry. You should know the answer to that question because we need to know. It goes back to my earlier question on whether anything was done to achieve a reduction. If not, fine, but you should know the answer to the question.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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But you should know the answer to the question, because ultimately it could be a root cause of the problem.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, it could be a root cause.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am just saying it could be a root cause; that is all. I am asking a question to find out. I can bring it back further.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I can ask a parliamentary question. I thank the witnesses.
The increased numbers are impacting provision, so new locations will have to be found. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
To move back to the issue of Ryevale House, is Mr. Delaney saying the contract for Ryevale House will not be renewed in May if the current arrangement applies?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When was the contract for Ryevale House last renewed?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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At that point, the Department would have seen, if it had been checked, that section 5 meant Ryevale House did not have planning permission. Based on what the Department is now saying, under the current status Ryevale House’s contract will not be renewed. That is the impact.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. I fully get that but I am just seeking clarity on the point.
Mr. Delaney referred to the water being used. Has it been reported to the Garda that a contractor was taking water from a source it should not have been taking it from? Is this currently subject to a Garda case?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If somebody is taking water they should not be taking, surely it is a Garda issue.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
On the point that Uisce Éireann cannot work on an unauthorised development, Mr. Delaney referenced protests that subsequently saw local residents taken to court by the owner of Ryevale House. Is the Department happy that residents, locals, taxpayers or other individuals who have lived in the area all their lives are being brought to court by somebody it is paying significant amounts of money to operate at a site that is an unauthorised development? Is the Department comfortable with that? Mr. Delaney said water was not being provided because of the residents in question. Is he happy with the comment his Department has made in this regard?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, but Mr. Delaney did make comments on it so he brought himself into it.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have seen the notice. It is an unauthorised development. With that, is Mr. Delaney happy with the comments he made, referencing the residents like that?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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He did not know any of the details. He said they blocked the water. The fact the water was not there was because of Uisce Éireann. It was nothing to do with the residents.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I would look into it and if Mr. Delaney needs to retract his comments, I think he should.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am just asking for clarification. That is what I was looking for on those points.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On international appeals and the promise of €10,000, would that be a pull factor? Are the people who are being paid €10,000 actually going home? How are we ensuring they are going home?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not going to attract people to come here to get the €10,000.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is definitely in place. Nobody is getting €2,000 or €10,000 for a family by coming over to Ireland. How is the Department guaranteeing that the people who have got the €10,000 go home? The witnesses said earlier they are not sure what people do after being asked to depart the country.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
There are different categories. People who are in a voluntary return programme will not get the money until they are actually home. It is given in the main now on a prepaid card that can only be activated in the country they are supposed to be in. We also look for evidence from them of their departure and confirmation of flight details. In some cases, we confirm they have left at the airport.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Not in all instances.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is just all very strange to me that things like this are not being checked. If somebody says-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Sullivan said it was in some instances.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can they come back?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They can come back.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Using the same system they came over on, they can come back and do it again.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department is "examining". This should be sorted out to make sure it does not happen. There is no point-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----examining it after it happens.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department does not have any evidence because when Mr. O'Sullivan was asked earlier by somebody in the room, he said he did not know if people actually went home when they were deported.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
There is a category of deportations. There is a category of voluntary returns. The voluntary returns are verified, as Mr. O'Sullivan said. Then there is another category of people who we figure return. The Garda does some checks on those and there has been no evidence those people are in the country.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There need to be more stringent measures in relation to that because it does not sound like anybody knows what is going on, in my eyes.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It sounds very complicated.
On the provision of buildings in the Prison Service, there was an overspend of €14.5 million. Why was that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It sounds a bit like the new children's hospital. The service had a budget in for €55.7 million but that increased by €14.5 million. Has that building been finished and completed?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the final cost then.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Not really, when there is €14.5 million in additional spending.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was an additional spend compared with what the service had budgeted.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The service had initially budgeted €55.7 million.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to get one last question in before my time finishes. In relation to the "Prime Time" revelation about overpayments in payroll, there was an overpayment of €230,000. Has that been repaid? There was €230,000 for recipients who received overpayments.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I am going to ask Ms McCaffrey about that as well.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask about the repayments first. Did the service get that back?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the revelation on "Prime Time" about cash payments for swapping shifts, it is not very secure that people can just swap shifts with cash changing hands.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Workplace Relations Commission accepted that an unofficial-----
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
In respect of that individual case, the facts of that case are disputed by the Prison Service and we have appealed that case to the Labour Court. I am not in a position to comment further. What I can say in terms of exchange of duties is that there are checks and balances in place in order to exchange a duty. Exchanging a duty is a common feature of all 24-7 services because there is a rigidity in our rosters that does not allow flexibility to staff.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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People are allowed to swap shifts.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You can swap a shift with anybody.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No cash payment changes hands.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
In relation to staff and additional remuneration, I mentioned earlier we have put a lot of additional resources into the system because of overcrowding. Any staff member who wants to earn additional remuneration can opt voluntarily to work pooled hours through our system that are paid at a premium rate. In terms of our budget for 2026, we have received €10 million extra to support additional hours in the system. Any staff member who wants to earn additional remuneration can work additional hours through our system for a premium rate.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The service has €10 million extra.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for staying on and answering the questions. I will go back to Ms McPhillips because I want to clarify a point. Gerry Hone, who is the national director of service and integration in Tusla, when appearing before the justice committee, stated: "Under current legislation, the duty to undertake age assessments rests with the International Protection Office". Unless I am mistaken, in response to an earlier question from a Deputy about age, Ms McPhillips said that is Tusla's job. What is the legal position? Whose responsibility is it to carry out the age assessment?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms McPhillips is not seriously telling me that everybody here, that is, those who are responsible for the IPO process, do not know what the legal position is as to who is responsible for assessing the age of a child who enters this country seeking asylum. There is nobody in this room right now who knows the legal position.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am not putting this on. I am absolutely astonished that there is no one in this room responsible for dealing with every single international protection applicant who comes into this State and that Ms McPhillips does not know the legal position as to whether her Department may or may not have a legal responsibility to carry out an age assessment, when she has already acknowledged that this is such an important issue as it relates to safeguarding of children and the potential mingling of adults with children in unaccompanied minor settings.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When I asked these questions, Mr. O’Sullivan acknowledged there was a delay of some description. Could he elaborate on what his assessment is?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
My understanding is that, in practice, Tusla makes an assessment as to whether the person should receive childcare services. In so doing, it effectively is making a determination as to whether that person is in fact a child. There are cases where someone comes to us claiming that they are a child. We bring that person to Tusla and Tusla subsequently comes back to us and says it does not think the person is entitled to child services because it thinks he or she is an adult. We admit that person then to the process. The delay I was referring to earlier is because this is often disputed between the applicant, perhaps with their lawyer, and ourselves and Tusla, meaning that these cases need to be examined further.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Are there any circumstances where the International Protection Office currently carries out age assessments on unaccompanied minors who seek international protection in Ireland?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In the heads of Bill, it is the intention that this-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----will change. It seems, as a matter of law, that this was supposed to have been happening already.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
There is some clarity required around it. In practice, the age assessment has been done by Tusla for many years de facto because it decides whether to admit someone to the process. We obviously engage, the lawyers make representations to us saying this person is actually a child and these cases get examined between us. The expectation is that the new legislation will fix it clearly and put a process around how that happens, with a multidisciplinary team.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms McPhillips worried or nervous about this idea of adults mingling with children in unaccompanied minor settings? Is this a concern of both Ms McPhillips and the Department that needs addressing rapidly?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms McPhillips agree and acknowledge that the Department has greater technical capacity to carry out age assessments than the Child and Family Agency does, considering the capacity within her Department, the bodies that operate under its aegis, the Garda Commissioner and everything else?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Even just carrying out background checks through Interpol or whatever to establish-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Tusla cannot do that.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am not talking about the human element. I am talking about any other background checks that could be carried out in respect of the child who has arrived and claims they have a specific name and age but in fact, if more due diligence was done behind the scenes-----
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
If I could just provide the Deputy with some assurance, there is very little we take more seriously than child safety and child safeguarding. A huge amount of effort is put into this across the whole system. I am not at all saying it is perfect, but I am saying we take it very seriously.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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To return to Ms McPhillips’s point, if Tusla is better at this, why is this responsibility being transferred to the Department under the new Bill?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
The intention is that there will be a multidisciplinary process. We will be engaged with the type of professional services that the Deputy is talking about. As things currently stand, where information comes to light of a documentary nature, such as getting a fingerprint hit from another country where someone applied as a 20-year-old, that is clearly fed into the process. Clearly, that will have a massive bearing on the determination of that person’s case. The idea in the pact is that there will be enhanced screening when people arrive to decide whether people are vulnerable, have special needs or can go through accelerated procedures. That part of the process will happen as a person arrives, rather than a few weeks later or when the case is arrived at. As we are running the front end of that process, it makes sense that we lead on that in a clearer way than is currently the case.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Tusla can speak for itself, but I was left with the clear impression, one that Tusla shares from reading the transcript of the justice committee, that this is a big concern for Tusla. Tusla is concerned with the number of adults it potentially has mingling in unaccompanied minor settings. It does not feel like it has the necessary capacity to carry out the age assessments that it is currently carrying out. Is that something that is on the Department’s radar?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The previous Deputy got two minutes, so the Chair might indulge me. I have one question for Mr. Delaney. Could he provide a copy of the statutory declaration he is referring to in terms of criminality? I refer to the blank one, the one given to commercial providers.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Notarised, yes. Can he provide a copy of that?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Farrelly asked about the origin of this declaration. Why was it brought in? Was there some specific case of concern about criminality in respect of potential owners that triggered this? Who decided that we needed this?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What does that mean? That is a very generic sentence. Was there something that triggered this at all?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Who advised Mr. Delaney to bring in a statutory declaration? Who is the best practice adviser or where did this come from? This suggestion that we should do statutory declarations in respect of criminality did not fall from the sky.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many contractors do not operate on serviced sites and do not have running water or wastewater treatment?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many contractors do not have planning permission?
Mr. David Delaney:
As I stated previously, all new contracts and those at renewal stage require a section 5 declaration that it is in planning compliance, as opposed to planning permission. Where a property or provider does not have one of those historically, that does not mean it is not in planning compliance. It could be a property that is unequivocally part of the statutory instrument that allows you to convert from the list of properties to an IP accommodation centre. That is a grey area in terms of clarifying the information.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. Can Mr. Delaney forward details of how many have and do not have that, if that is possible?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Please do so. I am concerned, and I think there is a general consensus in the room on this, about children potentially residing in an adult setting and, potentially, adults residing in a child setting. Ms McPhillips is rightly saying that this is one of the biggest priorities for the Department, but it is all Tusla's responsibility. For 2022, 2023 and 2024, how many examples or issues have been identified where a child has spent time residing in an adult setting or vice versa?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I do not think that scenario is as likely as the other scenario, if the Deputy follows. As I said earlier, my understanding from Tusla is that, if it had a doubt, it would give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the young person was a child. That child would not be referred back to us unless Tusla was fairly certain the person was an adult. The child would not find their way into an adult setting. The adult or the borderline adult finding their way into a child setting is the scenario we were just discussing. That is the assessment that has to be done.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For 2022, 2023 and 2024, how many cases are we talking about where this had been identified?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is a big priority for the Department, and rightfully so. I am sure the question as to whether this is occurring has been asked at some point.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It is an assessment that is done on an ongoing basis, which Tusla brings a lot of expertise to. The accommodation is Tusla's accommodation. Where a person is assessed as an adult and comes back into our accommodation, they are put into an IPAS centre and accommodated. They are offered accommodation in an IPAS centre.
I do not know; I would have to check with the team whether we have captured that figure for the years in question. I will check and come back to the Deputy.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For clarity, how many have been in the wrong type of accommodation and have come into the Department's service or vice versa gone to the children's service? That has to be captured somewhere.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I would say it is and I will definitely check it. I will provide some reassurance about the issue the Deputy is raising. Tusla's working assumption - it is the right thing to do - is to assume if it is a borderline case that the person is a child. People are put into a child setting so that they are not put into an adult setting. It is the reverse that is the issue, that an adult might be accommodated in a child setting and I will check that number for the Deputy.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that.
What are Ms McPhillips's thoughts on where the White Paper on reforming the direct provision system stands?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
There have been two reviews of the direct provision system in the past ten years. One was done around 2014 and the other, which the Deputy referred to, was done in 2021 or 2022. They both focused a lot on speeding up the system. Some elements are sui generis to that period which made assumptions around the numbers and so forth, but the fundamental element of both reviews and of our policy direction is speeding up the processing system so that people do not spend a long time in the accommodation. They get a decision, whatever it is, quickly and can move on with their lives or have to depart if that is the decision that is made. There is a lot in the review that supports that policy direction still. Our approach in the past few years has been to put resources into processing to make sure people get out of the accommodation as fast as possible.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will finish with Ms McCaffrey. I thank her for being here. I had the privilege of being played off the park in Mountjoy Prison a few months ago by a team of footballers who handed it to us. They were exceptional and it was a real privilege to meet and speak to them. I was astounded by the commitment of the staff we met on site and the testimony many of the lads were able to share about their time in Mountjoy Prison. However, I was struck by the settings in which some of the men were living.
Let us finish on a hypothetical. If Ms McCaffrey, instead of the Minister for justice, had the cheque book to make everyone's experience in a setting like Mountjoy Prison the most supported and conducive to learning, rehabilitation and preparing for their next step in life, what major change would she ask the committee to look for to solidify that experience?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
More than 70% of people who come into custody every year come for fewer than 12 months. People who are in prison for a short sentence do not have the opportunity or time to deal with addiction properly and it is addiction that is fuelling a lot of the offending in the background. They do not have time to get an educational qualification that will help them to go on to further study in the community. We do not have time to give them a skill so they can get employment when they leave.
For people serving longer sentences, there are incredible resources and incredible staff. I thank the Deputy for paying tribute to the staff and service providers in our prisons. For people serving shorter sentences there are co-morbidities of mental health and addiction issues. A lot of work is happening on the reform side, particularly in the Probation Service, to put supports in the community instead of having people come to prison for a short period, where we are not in a position to reduce the risk factors giving rise to their offending. There are plans to amend the number of community service hours that can be given, which is an alternative to a custodial sanction a judge can use. The more people in the system, the more challenging it is to provide services.
Specifically on what we could do better, if we could get more support in the community for the people who engage in low-level offending because of addiction, mental health issues or low levels of educational attainment, it would be a significant change.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have focused specifically on the €1 billion we are spending each year. We probably spent similar amounts in 2022 and 2023 when we were ramping up, but the sense I get - we were talking about what happened with Tusla - is that no one is happy with how things have gone in the past few years. I get the sense the Department was at sea in 2022, 2023 and 2024. The proper controls and processes were not in place. We are trying to rectify that now, but a significant amount of money was paid in those times to a lot of individuals who have made themselves rich off the back of the State. That is ultimately the case here. We are not sure what web of companies is behind some of them. Some of them we tried to figure out. We cannot be sure whether there is even a small number of people with criminal links. That was stated by Ms McPhillips in response to a question. We cannot be sure. That is a serious situation for the State to be in. There was probably no other time when the State was or needed to be in that situation. I asked whether we tried to push back at any point on where people might be coming from. We did not.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, that was case in 2024. Are we happy that we have all the processes in place and that we will not be coming here next year and the year after questioning all the gaps? The gaps are all reported in this document. Are we happy that all those processes and procedures will be in place and that we will not have the same issues we had in the 2022, 2023 and 2024 accounts?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I am not disagreeing for a second. However, the situation arose from 2022 onwards based on Government policy on Ukraine in particular. The Irish people extended a welcome to people from Ukraine. That put a lot of pressure on the rest of the system and the rest of the system had to respond to that at a time when people were also applying for international protection. There has been an unprecedented-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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International protection applications increased by 500%.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions. The expenditure on beneficiaries of temporary protection was €1.2 billion last year. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
What type of contracts are in place, if there are contracts? Is it on a pay-when-you-stay basis? How is the payment for the use of the accommodation by beneficiaries formulated?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is a similar process to the rate card.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have an average cost for that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is lower than for IPAS costs.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Currently, we are not locked into any contracts with accommodation providers. Are we?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many contracts are in place at this point?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a change or would they have been dealt with under a similar process to how the IPAS contracts were put in place? What was the process?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
The same sorts of pressures that were experienced by IPAS were experienced by the Ukraine team. At one point they were having to accommodate hundreds of additional people each day. In the past year, the number of people in State-contracted centres has come down dramatically from almost 60,000 in November 2023 to approximately 20,000 now. Those contracts have been closed off as people leave centres and, as contracts come up for renewal they are renegotiated, generally for short periods because it is a falling requirement.
Typically, the contracts are for between three and six months. There is then obviously increased opportunity-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Have similar issues arisen in the context of the contracts, like failures or the lack of due diligence we see in terms of IPAS accommodation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I mean issues that arose in the chapter in the C and AG's report relating to VAT and beds being charged for but not provided.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses stated, without providing any evidence, that a lot of people are travelling across the Border into this State. However, there are large numbers coming in via airports and ferry ports.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are numbers there. I wish to follow up on a point one of my colleagues made about people presenting at our airports or ferry ports without the necessary documents. There is an obligation on the providers of transport, whether it is the airlines or the ferry companies, to ensure that people cannot travel without suitable documents. There are specific laws relating to that. How many fines have been issued to airline companies?
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
The fines are issued by an Garda. I have the 2024 figures. Some 910 payment notices in the amount of €1.4 million were issued. We have found that the measures we have taken at Dublin Airport over the past few years have resulted in a reduction in the number of people arriving without documents.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that just through the airport, or is that ferry ports as well? Is it all encompassing?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a multitude of airlines? Is there a pattern? I am not sure if we can get a breakdown of who-----.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
We do not have a breakdown of the airlines. We work closely with the airlines. Our border management unit is well staffed in the airport in terms of checking people coming in. They are the people who deal with that issue. They work closely with the airlines. We have done training with airline staff as well on how to recognise papers and so forth and pick up on false documents.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If someone were to land at Dublin Airport without documents, are they-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Are they refused permission to land or if they claim asylum, can they still go through the process?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In some instances, people would not be allowed to land and would be returned.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have numbers in that regard?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get the numbers of people who were returned to their countries of origin?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On accommodation for people in receipt of international protection, the briefing notes indicate that we are still providing tented accommodation for some people.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is quite alarming to say the least. How many people are currently in tented accommodation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many locations are involved?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know where those locations are?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get information on those?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have current figures for people who have applied for international protection and no accommodation has been provided, so they are essentially homeless?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In the context of some of the accommodation provided, there is an vacancy level that the Department tries to keep for emergency situations. How many beds are currently vacant in the system?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In figures are we talking about hundreds of vacant beds?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In my constituency last year, there was a site in Newtownmountkennedy where a serious failure occurred. This is probably replicated across the State. There was a failure to properly engage with communities and inappropriate locations were chosen in which to put accommodation. There were a lot of concerns in that instance. I will try to get some of the figures now, but a considerable amount of work was done on that site to prepare it. It was only used for a very short time. Maybe Mr. Delaney can provide an update. I do not think it is being used now. What is the selection process for sites? There is the failure to engage with communities and public representatives. There is also the appropriateness of sites like Newtownmountkennedy, which is in a very rural area. There are the additional pressures they put on communities and the failure to appropriately engage with the communities and other service providers. Maybe Mr. Delaney does not have the information now. That site was formerly a disused HSE site. How much did it cost to prepare it? What is its current status? How long was it utilised for? It is my understanding that it is not being used. What is the long-term plan for that site in Trudder House, Newtownmountkennedy?
Mr. David Delaney:
I will give a bit of background. Ironically, that links to the Cathaoirleach's question about people waiting an offer of accommodation. March and April last year were when the crisis worsened there. We had asylum seekers sleeping in tents on the street and in parks in the city. We had to act exceptionally fast to come up with solutions to offer accommodation to those who required it. We made a call out to the wider system for offers of sites and potential buildings that could be used as a solution, so State sites and, if possible, State buildings-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of that process-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Instead of looking at the appropriateness of the site, the appeal went out. I know limited options came in and that was the basis for the selection of that site.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is to try to get some specifics on that site in Newtownmountkennedy. If Mr. Delaney does not have it, that is fine. I do not expect him to have the exact costs.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can we also get a note on what the long-terms use is. There is a demand in the area for it to go back to community purposes, because it is not being used. There is a cost, and again I do not expect Mr. Delaney to have the information now, but I think there is security at the site. If it is not going to be used, I hope it would be returned to the community.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get a costing on that? It goes back to the core point of the failure to engage with communities. Does Mr. Delaney think there has been a failure? I know there were pressures involved, but does he think there was a failure in the critical engagement with communities in the context of the locations chosen? They were chosen not because they were the best sites or locations or because they had the best services, like access to schools or GPs, it was a case of "We have this site. Here you go."
On the failure to engage with communities, do the witnesses believe that there was a failure in relation to that piece?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am just asking in terms of the policy that was being rolled out, do you now------
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
-----feel left out. Since November 2023, we have had a community engagement team. The Cathaoirleach is familiar with it. Ms Browne is here from that team. They have done very constructive work in the past couple of years in relation to that. We have developed a process that now works quite well. I can get Ms Browne to go into some detail on the changes, but I am conscious of the committee's time.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is not necessary. On the appropriateness of the sites, I will use the example in Newtown Mount Kennedy, which is a rural site. That is replicated right across the State. Earlier the witnesses referred to other costs. Obviously there were the accommodation fees but there were also other costs. There was reference made to the cost for taxis. In rural settings, there would be a necessity to provide taxis. What other costs would be associated with this, other than the likes of taxis?
Mr. David Delaney:
Security would be a factor now as well. We fund community integration forums and local authority integration teams in every county. We provide support for non-governmental organisations in certain centres to provide wraparound supports and assist applicants, especially our new arrivals. There is a vulnerability assessment process which is legally required. We have to pay for that as well. There are a lot of steps within the process and a lot of supports around the process that are needed.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On the example of taxis, do we have a figure? How much has it cost?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful if we could get a breakdown year-on-year. Another point I wish to touch on was referenced earlier and relates to the 4.65 sq. m for people who are being provided accommodation. That goes back to the 2019 guidelines. The experience I have in my constituency is that emergency accommodation was being provided in a hotel. I had a lot of back and forth with the Department on this specific case where bunk beds were jammed into what was a ballroom. This was quite recent. It was certainly after the 2019 guidelines. How does a situation like that arise? That particular accommodation was being utilised to provide emergency accommodation and then overnight a decision was taken to double the capacity in the hotel by putting in more bunk beds. How does that a situation like that arise, given that these guidelines are in place from 2019?
Mr. David Delaney:
Ultimately, it goes back to the crisis that the Secretary General and I outlined. It went from 7,000 beds to 27,000 beds in a short space of time, less than two years. Although we ask and work with providers to get to the national standards, even in some emergency accommodation if it a choice between not being able to provide beds for everybody or emergency accommodation, it may have a lower space ratio than we would like, or bunk beds. We have been clear that emergency accommodation does not always meet national standards. Where it can, we work with providers to try to meet that standard.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department now 100% compliant with those guidelines?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to renegotiated contracts, is the Department trying to regularise that to ensure they are all compliant?
Mr. David Delaney:
We are working with providers in that regard. However, it does not always mean that every emergency accommodation will meet national standards.
On the taxi costs, it was €900,000 in 2024. It was approximately €200,000 from January to May 2025. We can see that there was a reduction in 2025 in pro rata terms.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is a considerable cost. A lot of that is down to the failure to provide appropriate locations for the accommodation. What kind of procurement process was in place for taxi companies?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Delaney could. That concludes my questions.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask an extra question?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy to be brief.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I apologise; I appreciate the opportunity. How many international protection applicants who are the subject of a deportation order have been given a financial contribution to leave? We are going to increase it now. Under the current regime or the previous regime, whatever the monetary amount was, how many people took that up?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, before the order is signed. What about that category of persons?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How many people have received that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy. I thank the witnesses for coming in. This is a piece of work that the committee had given priority to given the level of expenditure on both IPAS and beneficiaries of temporary protection. There are a lot more questions that need to be answered. There are huge concerns among the public about the level of expenditure. To go back to the core point I made earlier in respect of having a fair, efficient and enforced immigration system, this is not on the witnesses but there were failures at different levels which have added to the pressures that we have been experiencing. There have been different initiatives taken that have increased a draw factor to Ireland. I would be concerned in terms of the new proposal that all of the safeguards are not in place to ensure that does not add additional numbers. It may actually act as a draw factor.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips is satisfied but I remain to be satisfied. There have been serious failures there. I heard that some changes have been made. Some of those changes are only coming about because of the work that is and has been carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General's office in terms of the comprehensive piece of work it has done over the past year. That has probably affected some of the changes we are seeing now. Those changes may not necessarily have come about without that piece of work. I commend the work of the C and AG for putting a serious spotlight on this issue. While there were 20 sample cases selected by the C and AG's office, I am still not convinced that is it. There are a lot more issues there given the number of contracts and the failure to have the proper due diligence in place. There is potentially a lot more there that we still need to get the answers on.
I thank the witnesses for their engagement. It is going to be an ongoing process because there will be supplementary questions from members. This concludes our engagement with the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. I thank the Secretary General and her officials for attending. I also thank the officials from the Department of public expenditure and the C and AG's office for their attendance once again. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions agreed arising from the meeting? Agreed. The committee is now adjourned until Thursday, 6 November 2025 at 9.30 a.m. when the committee will engage with Uisce Éireann.