Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 21 October 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Vacancy and Dereliction: Discussion
2:00 am
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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No apologies have been received. Members are advised of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in meetings.
Vacant and derelict properties in our cities, towns and villages are not just an eyesore but also a significant obstacle to both solving the housing crisis and renewing our urban centres. The 2022 census recorded 166,000 vacant properties, while the GeoDirectory residential buildings report in June of this year reports 80,000 vacant and 20,000 derelict properties. I am pleased to have the opportunity to consider this and related matters further with representatives from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, Dublin City Council and Longford County Council.
I welcome from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Mr. Paul Hogan, assistant secretary for planning, Ms Laura Behan, assistant secretary affordable housing division, Mr. Stewart Logan, senior planner, and Ms Ann Marie O'Connor, principal officer. From the CCMA, I welcome Mr. Paddy Mahon, chair and chief executive of Longford County Council, Mr. Coilín O'Reilly, chair of the CCMA's rural development, community, culture and heritage committee and chief executive of Carlow County Council, and Ms Nicola Lawlor, town regeneration officer, Carlow County Council. From Dublin City Council, I welcome Mr. Anthony Flynn, assistant chief executive with responsibility for planning, Mr. Karl Mitchell, executive manager with responsibility for the Dublin inner city task force, and Mr. Darach O'Connor, executive manager for property and urban regeneration. From Longford County Council, in addition to Mr. Paddy Mahon, I welcome Mr. John Brannigan, director of services, and Ms Samantha Healy, director of services.
I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.
Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The opening statements from all parties have been circulated to members. In the interest of time, I will take it that all opening statements have been read by members. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that we publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website? Agreed. Our meeting rota was circulated to members. I will start with five-minute slots. I remind members and witnesses that the five minutes are for both questions and answers. I ask members to direct their questions to specific witnesses and I ask witnesses to keep their answers as concise as possible. The first speaker is Deputy Séamus McGrath.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If it is okay, I will defer to my colleague, Senator Joe Flaherty. I may have to run to the Chamber in a minute.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask Mr. Flynn about one specific vacant development that I first mentioned in 2023, that is, the 103 completed apartments at No. 11, Old Naas Road, Bluebell, Dublin. I asked for mediation, which took place. Chief Justice Frank Clarke was appointed to that mediation process. I was extremely disappointed to see there was no resolution. I understand Dublin City Council walked away from the mediation process. Will Mr. Flynn provide an update on that? It seems extraordinary, in the teeth of a housing crisis, that we have 103 apartments completely finished. As I said, I first raised this issue two and a half years ago and those apartments are still lying idle.
Mr. Anthony Flynn:
With regard to the apartments on the Old Naas Road in Bluebell, Dublin City Council and the developer in question are in a legal dispute relating to building control matters of that apartment complex. While mediation efforts have failed at this particular point in time, a court date is imminent in the context of a hearing for that apartment block. I am restricted, Chair, in-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Once there are legal proceedings taking place-----
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I am happy with that response.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will not accept any questions in that regard.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hogan will have seen the detailed submission from Longford County Council about its issue with voids. He will not need me to remind him that Longford is the most challenged county in the country socioeconomically. We have the highest number of social housing per capita. That outlay can be seen, with just over €11 million spent from 2020 to 2024, at an average cost of €45,700. I do not intend to go into Mr. Mahon’s detailed paper on it.
The previous housing Minister visited some of the houses in question. He saw the scale of the problem in Longford at the time. As a consequence of the council's initiative, between 2020 to 2024, 250 vacant houses were brought back into the housing stock, at an average price of €45,000 per unit. There is no scheme in Ireland able to deliver houses at that level. We have specific socioeconomic and cultural problems in Longford and it is extremely disappointing that Longford County Council is left on the hook for that. It was always our expectation that the council would have been met with support, if not at least a warm embrace by the Department, to try to meet, at least to some degree, this significant cost. It is a small county and this is a huge noose around the council's neck. While I appreciate that we now have 250 properties with tenants in them, even allowing for rents of €90 per week, which amounts to €22,500, the annual rent roll is only €1.1 million. The overspend on those properties was €8.6 million. It is extraordinary that in such a small local authority that can be allowed to continue. It is certainly impeding the further growth of the county. I ask the Department to take on board the seriousness of the situation because it is impeding further growth and opportunity.
The most telling point is the quarterly statistics that were released yesterday evening by the Department. There is no work on any voids under way in Longford this year. I ask the Department to respond on this matter.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Did Ms Behan not see the submission in advance of the meeting?
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I would have assumed that the submission would have been circulated to the Department, given the significance of it and the fact we are discussing voids.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Let Ms Behan finish, Senator.
Ms Laura Behan:
I apologise to the Senator. I hear what he is saying about the seriousness of the issue. Bringing back properties from void situations is a key local authority response to vacancy. I sincerely apologise that I have not been briefed appropriately on the social housing voids programme in Longford. I will speak to my departmental colleagues who deal with that area. We will get a response for the Senator quickly.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. My first question is to both local authorities. Do they have a derelict sites register and, if so, are they reflective of the derelict sites in their administrative areas?
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
We have a derelict sites register. We have an active derelict sites co-ordinator under Ms Nicola Lawlor and the town regeneration auspices. In our submission, the Deputy will see that we have identified 673 properties in the county that are derelict and vacant. We are in the process of bringing them back into use through various mechanisms.
Mr. John Brannigan:
Similarly, in Longford, we have an active derelict sites team. It has existed for approximately three years. At this stage, we have just over 50 properties on the derelict sites register. We have an active town centre first team and we are developing town centre first plans for our principal towns in the county.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Longford County Council identified that it receives €11,000 to return voids, such as boarded-up council properties. Is the shortfall in funding preventing properties being returned.
Ms Samantha Healy:
There is a difference between what it costs us to bring a property back into use and the voids funding of €11,000. The average cost is approximately €40,000 per unit. In terms of whether it stops us bringing units back into serviceable use, we have to appropriately plan our voids and relet programme to ensure we are within budget year on year. Our discretionary budget, which is used to supplement bringing voids back into return, is small overall in the county, given that we are a rural county. It is something we take into consideration as part of our relet work.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Healy mentioned that the average figure is €40,000, but the information I have received from another local authority is that some properties, such as complex houses or houses that are old and require a lot of work, could cost €60,000, €70,000 or €80,000 because they are really old. The side-effects of that then, because local authorities only get €11,000, is that those properties are left to rot. They are left boarded up and cause antisocial behaviour and dumping. Due to the shortage of funding from central government, the houses in need of the most work are left there. Ms Healy said that Longford County Council has a limited budget, so obviously this must affect it as well.
Ms Samantha Healy:
Yes. Properties come back to us in a lot of different conditions. Typically, we have an older age stock return. We try to maximise as much as possible the funding we can put into properties to bring them back to use. We combine voids money with retrofit money. To bring retrofit up to the requisite standard requires more than the average grant payable for retrofit, however.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry for interrupting but I am just conscious that my time is limited. I appreciate Ms Healy’s answers.
My next question is to both local authorities. If they were to get extra funding and were told that we want no more voids or boarded-up houses and that, the minute they come in, the local authorities should get them out and put teams in place to turn them around, could they do that?
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
The timeframe is not a fundamental issue for us. We turn them around. At the time of the 2024 National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, report, we had a 15.97-week turnaround from vacancy to relettings, so that is quite quick. The timeframe is not an issue. We have a shortfall of about €9,000 per unit but we are not doing the retrofitting as we go. We have separated that out. My preference would be to do the retrofitting but from a speed point of view, we only do a basic fit and then we do the retrofitting through a different programme, the retrofit programme.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know the local authorities are doing it quickly, but we are returning houses that do not meet energy efficiency standards because the local authorities do not have the money. I appreciate that.
I have a question for the Department. How many staff are working in the vacant homes unit and what percentage of the Department's budget goes on vacancy and dereliction?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Dublin City Council officials did not get a chance to come in.
Mr. Anthony Flynn:
Yes, we have a derelict sites register. There are currently 139 sites and properties on that register. In relation to compulsory purchase order, CPO, activation programme, we were given a target of 150 identified sites and houses for 2023 and 120 for 2024 and we have achieved 303 and 290 sites for each of those years, respectively.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Dublin City Council's target was 150 sites.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could I have the other figures on CPOs? Do the local authority representatives have those figures?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do the Longford local authority representatives have those figures?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The target is one CPO. Is that not a very low figure?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a staffing and funding issue? Mr. Brannigan said Longford has 50 properties identified on the derelict sites register. If one CPO was to be done per year, it would take 50 years. Even if two were done per year, it would still take a long time. What is the issue? Is it to do with staffing, resources or funding?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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We all know there is loads of work to be done on the CPO process.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We are running out of time and I want to move on to the next speaker, Deputy Joe Cooney.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and giving us an update. We are all well aware that probably every village and town has derelict and vacant buildings. What can be done to speed up CPOs? It takes so long from day one until it a CPO is got over the line, between registering the property with the Land Registry, CPO-ing it and going through the process. Can something be done to improve and fast-track the process?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt but who is Deputy Cooney directing his question at?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am directing it to whoever would deal with the CPO side of things. I did not get exactly who is dealing with CPOs.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Reilly want to take that question?
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
I am happy to take that question. The thing to understand is every CPO is different. There is a process where the property owner or landowner must be identified. He or she might not be registered so we have to go searching for the owner. In our case, we did 32 CPOs between 2023 and 2024. The key statistic is the number of properties entering the programme. Between 2023 and 2024, nationally, nearly 11,220 properties entered the CPO programme. Not all properties that enter the programme end up being compulsorily purchased, if that makes sense.
In Carlow, we have done 32 CPOs but 146 properties have been returned to use by the private owners because what happens is we engage with the private owners and they does not want to lose the property, so they do something. The CPO is the end part of a long process where, as we work through it, there are many different changes and routes it can take along the way. Our experience is that a lot of times the CPO comes through a family dispute over the ownership of a property or a difficulty in identifying who actually owns the property, and it ends up undergoing a CPO. Generally, when we identify the property owner, the key question is how long they engage for. People may say they will do something with the property. I am thinking of a case we have where we left it for a year or so and the owner said he was definitely going to fix the property up for his daughter who was coming home to live in Carlow. After a year or a year and a half, we decided the property owner had had enough time and we needed to CPO the house, which we did.
It is not that CPO-ing a property is not a nice thing to do, because having a vacant and derelict property is not a nice thing either, but we are taking a piece of property from somebody. I suppose there is our colonial history of property being taken and things like that. It is a cultural issue. Posters about me have been put up all over Carlow town saying we were worse than a certain German political party of the thirties. There is often a reaction to CPOs and it is not as straightforward as it often seems. There is a long story to every CPO.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I agree that there is a long story and that people should have an opportunity. However, in some cases they are given too much time and it just drags out the whole process, unfortunately. There needs to be a time limit to make the process shorter and see if we can move more swiftly, which, in fairness, a lot of local authorities are trying to do.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Mahon was looking to come in there.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
One of the recommendations from the CCMA was to streamline the CPO process and support faster An Bord Pleanála determinations because, as my colleague Mr. O'Reilly said, there is a significant process to get to that point and then once the CPO process is enacted, if that can be streamlined to make it go as smoothly as possible, the process can be speeded up. It is a very lengthy process. Not every acquisition end up as a CPO. A very small percentage does, but it is the last resort if we cannot acquire the property by agreement along the way. As my colleague Mr. O'Reilly said, there is a story to every property. Everything has a background to it.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is there something that could simplify the process of having residential units over commercial property? A lot of residential units are tied up in towns and it is a big problem. Is it something that can resolve that? I do not know who wishes to answer.
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
I will start. In regard to our experience in Carlow, there are some examples in our submission of how we took a whole shop and turned it into a house as opposed to residential space over the shop. The reality is the nature of retail has changed and unfortunately, the men's outfitters or ladies' dress shops have gone from the main street in most towns, so we take the whole property.
The other thing to keep in mind is that, in the European context, a lot of the buildings were built with the accommodation for a separate flat above, whereas in an Irish context, it really was the family who owned the shop or pub who lived above in that building. They generally would not have had a separate access point and then we have to try to construct one. Usually the access was through the shop or premises so if we are to turn the unit into residential while maintaining the shop below, there is the complexity of how that works.
In general, our exeprience is that, in reality, as much as we would love for our high streets to turn back into what they were and for all these shops to reopen and do all sorts of wonderful things, it will not happen. Without impinging on our main retail streets, we can do some good things by taking the whole shop and turning it into a house. We have the example in the report of 15-16 Dublin Street, where we took two former shops and turned them into two homes.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Taking over the whole building simplifies things.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to Deputy Rory Hearne.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I will start with the situation in relation to vacancy and dereliction. We are all coming at this from the perspective that we have an absolute housing disaster, with record homelessness, as the witnesses are all too well aware. We spoke about long periods of time but culturally, politically and policy-wise there has been a complete failure to prioritise vacant and derelict buildings and to tackle them and take them seriously. We have very much had a developer-driven model, which has no interest in tackling these issues.
It is frustrating because I ask questions and it seems like the local authorities will answer with the truth to a certain extent, but they will hold back as well because they are dependent on the Department for funding. They are trying to operate with their hands tied behind their back. Local authorities tell me, albeit not in the public domain, that they do not have the resources to tackle vacancy and dereliction properly. They simply do not have the capacity to do so, given the slow-turning wheel of trying to address compulsory purchase and have funding set up and teams to do it. The local authorities need to be as honest as they can about the capacity that is needed to seriously address vacancy and dereliction. Will the witnesses comment on that?
My next question is for the Department officials. I have previously raised the question of including and defining vacant property refurbishment grants as affordable housing. Will they give some detail around how many of those grants are going to landlords or properties that are rentals? How do they define giving funding to a landlord as provision of affordable housing?
The figures indicate that there are at least 80,000 vacant and derelict properties. Approximately 3,000 properties are liable for the vacant homes tax. Will the witnesses from the Department give an exact figure for that tax? Do they think the tax is addressing the issue of vacant properties?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I invite the Department to respond first to those two questions.
Ms Laura Behan:
I am very happy to answer as to why we consider the vacant property refurbishment grant a key measure in our suite of affordable housing measures. For many people who are challenged to buy a home they can afford, the grant has unlocked that for them. They have been able to buy a vacant property and avail of the grant to do the works to make the property habitable and create a home. I am very sure that they consider they have been supported by the State to achieve an affordable property.
On the specific question-----
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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What proportion of the grants relates to rental properties?
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Approximately one grant in four is going to landlords as an affordability measure. We are helping landlords through affordability measures that come from public funding.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Are they making them available at an affordable rent when they receive the vacant property grant?
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Ms Behan said "one would assume" this is the case. Does she know whether it is the case?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Hearne also had a question for the representatives of the local authorities.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Before moving to that, I asked the Department officials whether they consider that the vacant property tax is working to address the high level of vacancy.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I ask the local authority representatives to respond to my question.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
To give a quick synopsis, since 2020, Longford County Council has reduced the vacancy rate in its social housing stock from 7% to 2.4%. Over the past five years, we have invested approximately €10 million in bringing 290 units into use. Our vacancy rate has been lowered to 2.4%, which is below the average, and we are aiming to lower it even further, with a view to getting it to, and maintaining it at, around 1.8% to 2%. We have received €4 million in grants and a one-off payment from the Department, which was very welcome, with the balance coming from our own resources. That is a challenge. At the moment, we have a certain amount as a debit balance in our capital account. It is an issue that is of concern to our local government auditor, to us and to our elected members. We are working within existing budgets in 2025 and onwards. We have brought our vacancy rate down. We were challenged by this committee two years ago to tackle it. We were also challenged by the Department and by NOAC to do so. We did it, at a cost to ourselves. More than 10% of our stock has been tackled over the past number of years. Moving forward, it will be a significant challenge because we need resources for all the other areas in which local authorities are obliged to provide services to our citizens.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses from Dublin City Council want to respond on that point?
Mr. Anthony Flynn:
Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. Dublin City Council is clear on the need to prioritise housing delivery at scale. Accordingly, we have redirected resources towards projects that deliver the highest volume of homes. We have looked at a strategic change in the context of how we are structured. The housing department is looking at large-scale housing delivery over the next number of years. The planning, property and economic development department has taken on the undertaking of tackling urban vacancy and dereliction. Over the past nine months, we have worked with a cross-party subgroup of elected members of the city council to come up with a strategic policy that reflects what we would like to do over the next number of years. We have circulated that report, which is groundbreaking in the context of how Dublin city will deal with urban vacancy and dereliction over the next number of years. There is a serious number of recommendations within the report, the main one being the question of whether we recognise the scale. The answer to that is, "Yes, we do". Are we looking at a new way of doing it? Yes, because there has to be a new way. It must be done by way of a special purpose vehicle.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Is the funding available to the council adequate?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses, especially Ms Lawler, formerly of Laois County Council. It is good to see her again. She was good to work with when she was in the housing department in Laois for a good few years.
My first question specifically concerns Longford, so Mr. Mahon might be best placed to answer. It is impressive that the vacancy rate has gone down from 7% to 2.4%. I read the papers Mr. Mahon supplied and noted the division of costs. The council now has a problem in its balance sheet to the tune of €8 million or €9 million arising from its providing approximately 80% of the costs. That is a balance sheet problem and it has to change.
I also note that the council is using in-house maintenance and repair crews. What saving has arisen from that? As Ms Lawler would know, Laois County Council now has in-house crews as well, and I am told it is seeing benefits in being quicker and cheaper and giving greater control. While contractors are sometimes needed for specialised work, in-house crews mean instructions can be given to repair a particular house and get it back into use within a week or two. How much cheaper is the in-house arrangement working out at for Longford County Council?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I thank the Deputy for his question, which I will pass over to my colleague Ms Healy in a minute. We have reduced the number of weeks within which a house is left vacant. The number of vacancies is still high but we have reduced it by 25% over the past couple of years because we have introduced a number of additional measures. Ms Healy might go through those measures, including the point the Deputy made about having our own crews.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I am really just looking for a figure. I have a few more questions.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Is the difference in the range of 25% to 30%?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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It is also a more efficient system because the council can get the work done when it wants it done.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Direct labour is working for Longford County Council; that is what I wanted to establish.
In Mr. Mahon's experience, how long is it taking for CPOs to be approved by An Bord Pleanála?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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What is the average waiting time?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Can any of the other witnesses comment on that?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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It is helpful to have a figure.
My next question is for the Department officials and it concerns the former County Hotel in Portlaoise. Ms Lawler will recall this one.
It was a derelict site for 30 years. Laois County Council then compulsorily purchased it, I think, and an AHB was going to develop it by putting 11 apartments into the existing building, which I always thought was daft because it did not lend itself to getting that many apartments into it. I believe it should have been demolished, but I am a layperson. The AHB has pulled out and it is back to the council, and it looks like the building will be demolished. I say to Mr. Hogan and the other officials in the Department that the matter will come in for approval, if it is not already in. I was talking to the chief executive of the council about it. It needs to be fast-tracked. It has been derelict 30 years and it has been two years since the AHB pulled out. It is now back with the council and it just needs to be fast-tracked. I think I am correct in saying it was 2019 when the AHB became involved, so six years have been wasted on top of the period it was derelict. I wanted to raise that point and use the opportunity to get that local issue in because we need single units in Laois for single people and smaller families.
I have another question both councils might address. With some over-the-shop projects, you are basically trying to renovate a pile of dust. There are streets that do no lend themselves to it. One of the earlier witnesses said this. There are difficulties in trying to repurpose them as units. There are soundproofing problems, fire safety problems and energy rating problems. A lot of these have half an acre or an acre of back garden and it would make more sense, if they were compulsorily purchased, to level them and put in a small street with six to eight small units there, be they private or social. The chief executive of Longford County Council might answer and maybe somebody from Carlow.
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
A good example, which is in our submission, is Dublin Street and Cox's Lane. There were two old three-storey shops with two storeys of residential above. We purchased both units. We turned the two old shops into six one-bed units for single people and in the back yard we built six two-bed terraced houses, like the Deputy was suggesting. There are good pictures and examples of how we did that. It can be done but it is complex. Even with the hotel project, I am sitting here thinking I am glad it is not me who has to do something with that hotel because you are not starting from scratch but with something imperfect that you are trying to bring back to standard and then to A or A2 rating. We were lucky in our project that we got it to an A2.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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But the cost per unit of these would have been astronomical. I can tell Mr. O'Reilly it will be cheaper to level. The masonry can be used for road-building.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Longford County Council has dealt with a lot of dereliction, so the officials might give an answer on that.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Has Longford County Council had any sites where it levelled a building and put in a new street?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
Not yet, but it is definitely an option. It is an option in Ballymahon, Granard and Longford town. We have not got to that stage. We have acquired a number of properties, sometimes with our resources and sometimes through the URDF round 3 call. In some cases, the URDF is really about acquiring the property and turning it around, but the properties we acquire for ourselves we acquire with a view to developing housing, developing back land car parking and maybe demolishing the street front and replacing it with something similar and something authentic to get the best possible use out of the land that is there and bring back more activity, whether it is residential, commercial or a mix of both, to bring life back into our town centres.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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You get a better quality house if you build new.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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For the local authorities, there is a lot of talk here about compulsorily purchasing and how long CPOs take. Starting with Dublin City Council, the officials were saying they believe they have a plan and funding, but walking around it is horrendous. Cork is the same. Every town and village is blighted by dereliction. We need to be much more aggressive with CPOs. The question for the Department is when will the legislation that will tackle compulsory purchase be delivered. Going back to Dublin City Council and the other local authorities, what people are telling me, like other TDs, is councils do not have the staffing or funding to take on these land hoarders who are letting derelict buildings destroy our towns, villages and city centres. I am looking for a straight answer. Have councils the resources? Have they the staff and the money? If they do, when will it start? I am walking around towns and cities around the State and it is horrendous when you look at them.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We might go with Dublin City Council, Longford County Council and then the CCMA.
Mr. Anthony Flynn:
Thanks. Deputy Gould's points are well made. On what we have been doing under active land management, since 2017 we have completed 54 CPOs and brought back I think 107 properties through derelict sites measures. We spent a lot of money on that but they are kind of one-offs. The Deputy is right in what he is saying. It is not creating the kind of impact we would like to get with a collective response. What we have been doing over the past nine months is carrying out a real analysis with all stakeholders that are involved, including private sector, public sector, planners, property owners and all the rest. Moving forward, we are saying in our pilot we are going to do this on a street-by-street basis and follow through with other public realm improvements to facilitate a catalyst to ensure these streets are re-activated. The two streets are Middle Abbey Street and North Frederick Street. The Deputy asked have we the resources. We have been recently approved by the Department, and kindly so, to create a project management unit. This unit will be responsible for carrying out these programmes we have planned to reinvigorate vacancy and dereliction in the city core. We believe we will be able to come back here in two years and show real progress in what we are doing. What has happened before is kind of one-off stuff, so we have to prioritise and focus. We are doing that and we are focused on a core red line in the city centre area. What we have been doing heretofore has been right throughout the city and we have been actively engaged in that for a number of years, but as Deputy Gould rightly said, the scale of this indicates we have to do things a different way.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Flynn for that. I want to bring in other people. I invited both the current and previous Ministers to walk Dublin city centre, Cork city centre or any town or village and look at the dereliction. How have we allowed the buildings in our capital city and our second city to be falling down around us?
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
From our point of view we have adequate resources. We have two people who are funded by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and one who is funded through the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. As I said earlier, we 673 properties identified in Carlow and 146 have been brought back into use. We have compulsorily purchased 32 and 30 social houses have been created through derelict and vacant properties. When we talk about CPO, one thing that would be very helpful would be timeframes for how long we engage with somebody before moving through the stages of a CPO. Is it six months or three months? It varies and it depends on the situation. I means some sort of timeframe where the first time we write somebody a letter and say their property is derelict and we intend to compulsorily purchase it, that they have six months to do A, B or C and if it is not done it moves to the next stage.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I will pass over to Mr. Brannigan in a second. There are 26 town regeneration offices across the local authority sector and they are I think co-funded by the Department of housing and the Department of rural and community development. Some 25 town centre first plans have been developed.
In our case in Longford, we have a town centre first plan in place for Longford and some of the recommendations of that plan are being implemented. I will ask Mr. Brannigan to cover that in a moment. We are working on the town centre first plan, with support from the Department, to address in an holistic way the revitalisation of our town centres to tackle dereliction, vacancy and the revitalisation of the new economic reality of our towns in rural Ireland. I will pass to Mr. Brannigan for a more detailed response.
Mr. John Brannigan:
Our town centre first team co-ordinates the response to dereliction and vacancy within Longford on a cross-functional basis, so every department within the organisation has input. We have enough bodies on the ground to deal with the issues. We have dealt with a number of brownfield sites that we have used for housing projects, in particular in Longford town on Richmond Street, which is an approach road to the town and has transformed the appearance of it. We have also leveraged in our active travel funding to open up-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, it is just that my time is nearly up. Mr. Brannigan is saying the council has 50 derelict properties, it has a target of one a year and maybe upscaling that. What would it take to clear those and what would be the timeline?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not doubt Mr. Brannigan on the work they are doing but does the council have the staff to do it? As the party spokesman on local government, I am going around looking at towns, villages and cities. Everywhere I go I see dereliction and I hear a load of work is being done but I do not believe the council has the resources. I want to give it the resources. I want to encourage the Minister and the Department to give them the money they need.
Mr. John Brannigan:
There have been a number of projects over the years that we have delivered upon. I mentioned the two brownfield sites within Longford town that were derelict and we have brought them back to provide new housing units with over 50 housing units on two sites. We also acquired a post office that had laid vacant for a number of years within Longford town and we have funding in place to turn that into a tourist office and community space. We were also successful in acquiring the Army barracks a number of years ago and we have secured €7 million of town centre first heritage revival scheme, THRIVE, funding within the last number of weeks so there is continually, and will continue to be, a workload in front of our staff. While we want to reduce the number of vacancies and we as the local authority are leading out on that, we are also encouraging the private sector to come in and acquire some of these empty derelict properties and we are engaging with the private sector to that end, particularly within Granard.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Brannigan. We will move-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Department a question. It might come back to me afterwards.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If we get a chance. We have gone way over time. Senator P. J. Murphy is next.
PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I will direct my first question to one of the lads here from Longford because a lot of the rural towns in Longford are similar to those in my own area in east Galway. My first question is on the CPO activation programme for over-the-shop units on main streets. Many of the towns in Galway like Gort, Loughrea, Ballinasloe, Clifden and Tuam were built with three or four storeys over the businesses. In a lot of cases on the main streets we might have a tenant business at ground level and maybe three or four derelict levels above that. Does the fact that there may be a tenant in situ at shop level on the ground level prevent the CPO activation programme being used?
Mr. John Brannigan:
Longford would be similar, with properties that are retail on the ground floor with vacant residential on the first or second floor. What we do is engage with the property owners in relation to getting the vacant homes grant and they can avail of €50,000 or €70,000 to bring the property back into reuse. That has been successful on a number of occasions. It is really having the boots on the ground and engagement with the property owners.
PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I suppose that is a carrot but if they do not accept the carrot, is there a stick? If they do not voluntarily go down the road of the vacant property grant, is the local authority then without the ability to forcibly activate the CPO activation programme if the ground level is in use?
Mr. John Brannigan:
In general, our hands would be somewhat tied in the definition of what is a derelict property. It is restrictive within the legislation. If people can see they can avail of a grant and bring the property into reuse and get rental income from the property, they are generally quite happy to go down that road.
PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Brannigan. My next question is for the departmental officials here. Going back again to the east Galway area, I am sure they will be familiar with the massive derelict eyesore that is the Shannon Oaks Hotel in Portumna. It is a huge site and has been derelict now for over 15 years since there was a fire on the site. It is hazardous. It is owned by developers and merely sitting there as a derelict site. Galway County Council has not to date been successful with bringing on any movement at the site. Whenever the Shannon Oaks site in Portumna does come in front of the Department, I urge it to make any progress that can be made on progressing matters. It really is an eyesore. The town is without any hotel at the moment and it seems to be a case of developers sitting there, again and again, year after year on a site that nothing is happening with and is in a dangerous state.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. Deputy McGrath is next.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies. I missed some of the discussion so if I am repeating, I apologise. It is important to say there is a lot more discussion on the whole issue of vacancy and dereliction than in the past, which is very welcome. Increasingly, we get briefings on the issue. A discussion is to take place in Buswell’s Hotel in the next week or so on the issue. It is gaining a lot more traction and there is a recognition that tackling it is an important tool in terms of trying to increase overall accommodation and housing supply, so that is good.
Again, I apologise if I am repeating. In terms of overall numbers, the CSO indicates there are approximately 80,000 vacant buildings. Is everyone in general agreement with that? Does anyone have a different view?
Ms Laura Behan:
There are a number of different measures of vacancy. The GeoDirectory has a measure, the CSO did a census measure and recently the CSO published figures regarding vacancy that it calculated on the basis of electricity use. Not all three measures accord. The three measures do indicate different figures but there is a broadly similar outcome from all of them, in that as those figures are being measured again and compared year-on-year. For example, when 2016 and 2022 are measured or when the ESB has compared its 2023 data with its 2024 data, we see a consistency around the level of vacancy falling nationally. We would attribute some of that to the fact we have an activation programme in place-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, time is against me. On the different measures, what is a fair average figure for vacancy? In one sense, it is not good that we do not have a precise figure on the number of vacant units across the country.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is perfect. My view is the vast majority of those buildings are lying vacant without any consequences. What is our best estimate of the number of properties on the derelict sites register nationwide? We know there is a levy but have we an estimate of how many properties there are nationwide? Each local authority manages it. I know a change was announced in the budget that it would become an issue for Revenue. Is anyone interested in giving an estimate?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are there 11,000 commencements on the CPO process?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are all those properties considered derelict?
Ms Laura Behan:
No. They would be vacant. Following that engagement and interaction, we would move only to use CPO at the very end. For the most part, the activation process seeks to deploy all the different schemes. There is a whole range of them. There is the vacant property refurbishment grant, the buy and renew, the repair and lease----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. Ultimately they may not be subject to a CPO if movement happens. Going back to my point, the vast majority of vacant properties are sitting there without consequence. A reply I received to a parliamentary question indicated that the vacant homes tax is applied in respect of approximately 3,000 properties; the derelict sites register is somewhere around the same order. I take Ms Behan's point that 11,000 have commenced on the CPO but it is still a small fraction of the overall number of vacant properties. Unless we address that issue, it is all very fine giving grants and carrots but there have to be consequences. One of the opening statements referred to the social responsibility of property owners. There absolutely is a social responsibility but unless we provide high levels of enforcement, when only a fraction of property owners are actually paying a levy, tax or consequence for leaving a property vacant, I do not think we are going to fully address the vacancy issue.
Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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My question is for Mr. Flynn and Mr. Mitchell. Their opening statement referred to regenerating our city core via the establishment of a special purpose vehicle for the city centre of Dublin. As part of that SPV, where in the south side would be covered? I am referring to the south inner city.
Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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My understanding is that the south inner city mostly is not included. I will look at Pearse Street itself, where Trinity College has done untold damage, as Mr. Flynn and Mr. Mitchell know well. Trinity College has turned its back on Pearse Street and on the community. Quite a significant length of Pearse Street is sterile. It needs to be activated. I think that should be part of the remit but it is not covered in the core area. I do not think it is; I could be wrong.
Mr. Karl Mitchell:
On the red line map, what we are trying to do in terms of the Taoiseach's task force, and the roadmap that was brought to us in terms of Government for the city centre, covers both sides of the river. Everything we are doing is also around learnings. Whatever we do, it is about replicating that across the wider city. There is a red line map, which we will circulate again, and then there is a blue line map moving further out in terms of services for vulnerable people and so on. The idea around regeneration and rejuvenation is that it applies to both sides of the river. Whether it is housing, flat complexes or commercial retail, it is all of that, both sides of the river.
Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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It is just that when the urban regeneration catalysts were mentioned, at the sixth or seventh point the document referred to place-making and the public realm on Liffey Street, Talbot Street, Cathal Brugha Street, Capel Street and Parliament Street. I know the witnesses have been presented with this so I understand. It seems to be all centred on the north inner city and I am very happy for the north inner city. There is the Parnell Square cultural centre, Dalymount Park - good luck to them - and George's Dock. It all seems to be centred towards the north inner city. It is really important that the work would be replicated in the south inner city. They are in effect one community, as Mr. Mitchell knows. He has worked in those communities. The trouble is that the task force and the State have divided the two communities, in effect, in terms of resourcing. Mr. Flynn's statement towards the end asks the State to consider the following recommendations: "Confirm the funding commitment for the Dublin city centre task force. The city council anticipates approximately €114m in Government funding". That task force was announced last April or May. It was reported over a year ago. When is the funding expected to come on stream and be delivered by the Government? Nothing can happen without it.
Mr. Anthony Flynn:
In reference to the opening statement, it was indicative of what we have been working on for a number of years in relation to enhancing projects within the O'Connell Street task force area, which does traverse the River Liffey itself. As the Senator is aware, the big scheme that is coming on the south side of the river is College Green. Karl and his team are also working on a public realm plan for Westmoreland Street, D'Olier Street and Aston Quay. We have a lot more coming through; we just did not put it all in the opening statement. With regard to the task force, there are a number of members here today. We have been working diligently and very hard with the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in respect of moving together to implement the ten big moves. We have an action plan. We have a tracker in relation to the action plan showing where every project is. In a long-winded way, I think the Department might make reference to it but we are anticipating an announcement on the URDF funding. I am sure that is going to be imminent. Mr. Hogan may come in on that. As part of that, we believe we are going to get a significant chunk of URDF as per the task force report.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time, thank you Senator. It was remiss of me not to mention at the start that Senator Andrews is stepping in for Senator Maria McCormack and Deputy Geoghegan, who is next, is stepping in for Deputy Butterly.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I will continue my line of questioning to my former Dublin City Council colleagues, Mr. Flynn and Mr. Mitchell. It is great to hear that there are some brilliant things happening Dublin-wide. There was an attempt to divide and conquer and the officials very clearly outlined the projects that are coming. Another project that could bring the communities together would be an extension of the Luas to Ringsend, which is not within Dublin City Council's domain but that of the NTA. I am sure Senator Andrews would support that initiative as well. Really what I want to focus on is the project in Middle Abbey Street and North Frederick Street. Could we have an outline of what is planned there? As I understand it, and as the officials have explained today and previously, this is the model. This is going to be the key outworkings of the Dublin city task force's goals of getting people living in the city, getting key workers living in the city and building areas that require rejuvenation back up street by street. Can we have an outline of how that project is going to work, how key workers will get access to these homes and the quantities we are talking about?
Mr. Karl Mitchell:
As we said earlier, it is taking a street-by-street approach. Lessons will be learned. Using those two particular streets, Middle Abbey Street is predominantly retail. There is historical retail with living over the shop. The Luas line intersects it as well, which creates positives and negatives for a street of that scale. North Frederick Street is part of the Georgian core and has a history of living going back centuries. For the city council, the first thing is the data scrape, getting as much information as we can about ownership, history and planning applications.
Are people living there? Who is living there? What tenure mixes are in those streets? Why have retail outlets stopped trading? What are the rationales for that? What do owners believe the future of retail and living in the city looks like? The idea is that there is information collation initially. From there the idea is a concierge service. We are going to tell owners we want to help them to help themselves. Part of that is making sure owners are aware of what Government schemes are available to them. Within that concierge service we are going to bring together different disciplines. If an owner needs architectural support, planning support or administrative support, we will offer that. On the other side, we will also make property owners aware of their obligations, the legal requirements and the duties we expect of them. We will not be remiss in tackling owners by saying we want to work with them, but if they do not, we are going to bring to bear whatever powers or levers we have to enable vibrant, active and safe streetscapes and for those things to occur in the city.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Mitchell put a number on how many key workers he thinks will be living in these?
Mr. Karl Mitchell:
Various questions have been asked before. We have 44 properties on Middle Abbey Street and 22 on North Frederick Street. They are all very different types of properties. The idea is based on planning regulations and square meterage. We want to see every unit have some activity over the ground floor. Some numbers-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Some of the measures in the budget are going to assist with that. Mr. Mitchell has made clear that additional funding because of the task force is going to be allotted to Dublin City Council with more to follow, and then the SPVs. How does the SPV build on the initial ambition of two streets? How will the SPVs leverage this further so the Dublin city task force is really brought to life throughout the rejuvenation that is taking place?
Mr. Karl Mitchell:
The Deputy talked about progress. In the initial outlay the Deputy will see an advertisement for the project management unit in the next couple of weeks, which is the first step into this space. That will be a multidisciplinary team. Their job will be to work with stakeholders, developers, property owners and arms of the State in terms of identifying brown field sites, as with derelict sites and vacancy, and to push on with those. The SPV is about bringing together a strong board with skill sets that are required to develop cities.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It will be reporting to the Department of the Taoiseach four times a year on a quarterly basis. Is that right?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So, it is remaining as the centre of government to ensure that Dublin is given this priority.
I have introduced a Private Members' Bill on CPOs. I am not reinventing the wheel with it. The Law Reform Commission did a report on this a while ago. I have initiated it in terms of CPO reform. Mr. O'Reilly said that if there were tighter timelines for CPOs, it might make the process more efficient. Another recommendation from the Law Reform Commission - it is in the Bill - is about providing moneys up front. How important does Mr. O'Reilly think it is to reform the existing CPO laws we have to support local authorities and their CPO efforts?
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
Yes. CPO works for us. It would be important for reform to get uniformity across the board so that it works the same in every local authority and in terms of timeframes. This would mean that people would know for definite that after, say, six months we are moving to the next stage and there is no more discussion around looking for the money or trying to do it. The idea is that we would have not a statutory timeframe but a recommended timeframe to move steps forward. Reform in that area would be good. At the moment we are all looking at the legislation and interpreting it differently; for example by thinking about whether six months is acceptable or a year is acceptable. Some people may not engage at all while others engage very well and still do nothing. A timeframe that could be broken down would make it much easier for us all to go step by step.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Apologies for coming in and out. We had different committees. I thank everyone for being here. It has been mentioned that vacancy and dereliction are at the heart of the planning policy. I was working with a chap from East Wall who got in touch with me. He applied for the vacancy grant in respect of a derelict home. It took well over a year to get the grant, and it was give or take whether he would get it. He had to prove everything absolutely beyond reasonable doubt and give his blood type to get the grant. He told me he had to deal with seven different people in the Department, who kept changing, to get the grant over the line. When the grant got over the line, it was the best thing ever. The house is an amazing residence now and he is absolutely over the moon and has forgotten about all the pain. It seems that there are not enough resources in the Department to deal with this. It is a wonderful grant. If it works, it is at the heart of planning policy and will make a difference. What measurable national targets are there for reducing vacant or derelict residences by 2026? Is there an actual target? If there is, is there a task force that has accountability for overseeing those targets?
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Have there been 14,900 applications?
Ms Laura Behan:
Yes, so we will be well in excess of the targeted level in terms of achievement. Regarding the process for the grant application itself, the Senator's friend was applying to Dublin City Council, rather than the Department, because the grant is administered by the local authorities. We work very hard to streamline the grant application process. We have an awful lot of guidance and supports available to local authorities to assist them in that. We have a very high approval rating and the 10% of grant applications that are withdrawn are because of a lack of information being provided by the applicant. Generally, the applicant can get the information together and come back in. It is a significant amount of State funding, so it is important all the information is provided.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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At a broader level, dereliction and vacancy is not just about poor ownership; sometimes it is about the cost equation and whether it actually works. It is about the cost-benefit analysis being compliant and whether it is commercially viable regarding the economic value of the property. I have spoken about Baggot Street hospital. It is there, and it is amazing. It would provide so much housing, but I think we would need the EuroMillions and more to do it up. Vacancy and dereliction refurbishment is wonderful, but without grant aid, I do not know whether it is economically viable in a lot of cases. What is the witnesses' view on that?
Ms Laura Behan:
We have recognised that there are challenges and costs associated with bringing a home back from vacancy, which is why the grant is available to support people in doing that. Some homes need more work and sometimes €50,000 is not sufficient because of the state of dereliction. A further €20,000 is available for those homes. The grant payable can be up to €70,000 to cover the additional costs for a home that has perhaps been vacant for longer and needs a deeper refurbishment. There is a range of other schemes available via the social housing programme such as repair and lease, and buy and renew, where local authorities can make even more funding available to help with the costs of bringing those properties back. They are then used for the social housing programme. There are degrees of cost associated with the level of work that needs to be done. For the most part, including the living city initiative which was recently improved in the budget and will now be available in more towns, the supports available are scalable and tailored to the kind of work that is involved. I am afraid I do not think any of our supports would be sufficient to deal with Baggot Street hospital.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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It is a fantastic initiative. More supports for the Department and the local authorities need to be given, but it is game changing.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses. I want to briefly return to Baggot Street hospital. This morning at the first meeting of the Dublin south-east regional health forum, my colleague, Councillor Dermot Lacey, heard from a HSE official who was adamant that Baggot Street hospital had been offered to the Department of housing.
I know the LDA came back to my colleague, Deputy Bacik, and said an approach was not made to the LDA under section 53 to dispose of the site. Will the witnesses confirm whether an approach was made by the HSE in relation to Baggot Street? Was the approach turned down and will the witnesses elaborate on the reasons for that?
I want to ask about Carlow and the living city initiative. I know that initiative was extended in the recent budget but not to certain areas. Would it make a difference to business owners with vacant properties in those area?
I have picked up on some disappointment over Dublin City Council's pausing of the adaptive reuse programme after much work on identifying suitable properties, stakeholder engagement and conducting feasibility studies. Why was that action taken? How will the work, personnel and buildings identified as suitable for residential use be incorporated in the new approach? What are the shortcomings of the living city initiative when it comes to its application within Dublin City Council? We see much higher application of other grant schemes but there seems to be a very limited uptake within Dublin City Council's administrative area and across the five councils.
Ms Laura Behan:
On Baggot Street hospital, it would be unusual for the HSE to offer any property to the Department. The Department does not buy housing or buildings in general. All that work is done through our delivery partners, primarily through local authorities. I understand the HSE was in discussions with Dublin City Council about potential use of Baggot Street hospital. As far as I have been able to ascertain through lots of contacts throughout the Department, it was not offered to the Department. There may be a misunderstanding about that. There would not be any circumstances, really, in which a building would be offered to the Department of housing. I understand it was offered - and there were ongoing conversations on two separate occasions - to Dublin City Council and the Dublin Region Homeless Executive. In both cases, feasibility studies were done and I understand the costs of converting the property into something suitable was prohibitive.
The property has not been offered for sale to the LDA yet. It is a requirement under the LDA Act that any relevant public land, and it would be considered relevant public land, before being disposed of by the State owner, would be offered to the LDA. That has not happened yet. The HSE has not disposed of it so it would not be unusual for a State body to test the market, put a property on the market, try to identify what it could get for it and then go to the LDA, outline what the building could be deployed for and ask if the agency is interested. No one is being negligent by not offering it to the LDA yet.
The LDA is strongly interested in converting properties to social and affordable housing. It has looked at adaptive reuse of buildings similar to Baggot Street hospital. It looked at the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum and at St. Bricin's Military Hospital in Montpelier Gardens. It proved cost prohibitive to deliver social and affordable housing in those properties. I am not sure the LDA would take it, even if it was offered, because it is very challenging.
Mr. Coilín O'Reilly:
On the living city initiative, my view is always the more initiatives you have, the better. It gives you another level to pull. At the moment, I think we are doing a relatively good job in Carlow so it is not a game-changer for us. We are moving through our significant list. We have about a quarter activated at this stage and are continuing to engage. Anything we add will be a help but it is an additional tool for us rather than a game-changer.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I have an additional question.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Half four is our finish time so I have to move on. I have a few questions myself. I am a former member of Longford County Council so I know a lot of the work done by the local authority, particularly in actively pursuing derelict buildings in our county town and regional towns and going after the money to do works on them. I am familiar with many projects that have been done. The council has been extremely active in that.
I was in this committee room two years ago when the local authority was challenged to reduce its vacancy rate. The figures were given by the chief executive there. We are down to roughly 2.4%, on average. The reality is that comes with a cost, one which has been significantly borne by the local authority because it stood up to the challenge given by the Department and this committee.
I have a question for the Department on the grants we give. I have seen how successful croí cónaithe is in providing grants of up to €50,000 or €70,000 in towns and rural areas in my county. It is probably one of the best schemes brought in by the Department but I do not understand one thing. For a vacant house in Ballinalee, where I come from, you can get a grant of €50,000 to bring it up to standard. If it is a vacant social house, you will only get €11,000 to do it. Will the departmental officials explain where there is a difference? I do not understand. If the same works need to be done to the same house, the plasterer, electrician or whoever you want to get will charge the same money to do it. There is a significant shortfall for the local authority of €6 million over recent years. Loads of the other services have to be run in the county. Will someone explain why there is that difference? Everybody knows that, in the current climate, you would not get a room done for €11,000, never mind a house.
Ms Laura Behan:
I cannot comment on the Longford situation but I know from within the Department that we are working to put the letting of social housing properties on a stronger footing. We are trying to move to a planned maintenance system so that enough funding is earmarked from rents received from social housing for a planned maintenance programme to be undertaken annually and so that for properties which fall vacant, generally because of the death of a tenant or people moving out, the work that needs to be done before they are relet is minimised. There is funding available to local authorities for voids to do the end-of-tenancy work required. There is probably a conversation to be had over whether properties have been properly maintained during the tenancy such that significant works are not required at the time of a vacancy arising.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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A lot of this stock is 40, 50 or 60 years old. We have standards with regard to retrofitting, etc. Should houses be retrofitted to the proper standards or is Ms Behan saying they should not? If they are, it will cost on average €34,000 per house to retrofit those houses, yet the Department is not prepared to fund the local authorities to do that.
Ms Laura Behan:
There are planned retrofit programmes in place which are fully funded by the Department. Generally, however, it is considered better value for money, more effective and more cost effective if retrofitting works are carried out on an estate-by-estate basis, rather than once-off as properties become vacant. Given that there is an imperative to turn vacant housing around quickly because of the size of waiting lists and the need to reduce the time properties are vacant between tenancies, we are starting to consider it may be better for tenants and local authorities not to do retrofits at the time of a void or vacancy but in planned, full-estate ways, even while tenants are in situ.
That may be the way to tackle the need to retrofit the social housing stock.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is extremely difficult to retrofit a house when people are living in a house. It makes sense to do it when a house becomes void and it is done quicker. I would imagine it is cheaper to do it at that time before the house is re-let.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Behan for endeavouring to answer the question about voids. It is disappointing, for a discussion on voids, that we do not have somebody from the Department able to address the issues specifically. I know affordable housing is her area. I am concerned that the €8 million overrun is causing huge problems financially for Longford. We would have seen the quarter 2 social housing report delivered yesterday evening. I am concerned that this is impacting on the performance. I appreciate I am only comparing six months here with 2024 performance. We had 42 new builds in 2024 in Longford and none so far this year. We had 25 acquisitions and only four this year. RAS was at 27 last year and nine this year. We had 31 HAP last year and none this year. All told, there were 127 social housing units last year. If we add in the voids, that is 170. At six months this year, we just have 16 units and no voids. Is this issue down to the fact that we have that funding issue or are other issues at play here?
Ms Samantha Healy:
On the point about voids, there would be an ongoing programme of voids to date with 45 completed. There would have been those that are in pipeline. To date, 45 have been completed and 58 are projected. In terms of housing delivery, we have 106 projected to the end of 2026. There is a delay in delivery in those units for various reasons locally. A lot of that is shortage of contractor availability.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that I have limited time. Will we have any new builds in Longford this year?
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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We will have no new builds in Longford this year.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the representatives from the Department, Dublin City Council, Longford County Council, the CCMA and Carlow County Council for coming in and answering questions. I thank the members for adhering to time as best as possible. We got an opportunity to get everyone into speak. I apologise for not going around the second time, but everyone got a fair question.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased we have the opportunity to continue our discussion. I welcome Ms Orla Murphy FRIAI, assistant professor, UCD school of architecture, planning and environmental policy, and co-director, UCD centre for Irish towns; and Dr. Philip Crowe, UCD school of architecture, planning and environmental policy, and co-director, UCD centre for Irish towns. I welcome Mr. Nick Taaffe, chartered and registered quantity surveyor and co-author of the SCSI The Real Cost of Renovation report; and Ms Brigid Browne, chartered and registered building surveyor, chair of the SCSI southern region and former chair of the building surveying professional group committee. From Anois, we have Dr. Frank O'Connor, co-instigator of the #derelictIreland movement and co-founder, and Ms Jude Sherry, co-instigator of the #derelictIreland movement and co-founder. I thank everyone for being here. We can assume the opening statements have been read. They were circulated in advance. As I am chairing I will not go to the Fianna Fáil slot initially. I will hand over to Fine Gael representatives. If one of them is ready to proceed, we will start with questions.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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This second session is on vacancy.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a continuation of the subject of vacancy and dereliction.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Apologies; I was at the justice committee until now. I am a TD for County Louth and east Meath. From Drogheda and Dundalk along with Ardee and Castlebellingham, there is not a town or village in the country that has not been affected by huge numbers of vacant properties in towns and rural areas. We heard in the budget that Drogheda and Dundalk are going to be included in the living city initiative, which is welcome. I fought hard to have them included in my nine months as a TD, as have many before me. This kind of news really raises the hopes of the inhabitants of towns like Drogheda about the potential impact it will have on a town centre. The questions are coming hard and fast. How soon can we do it and how much money will we be allocated? There has been a rise in funding towards grants. From the perspective of the witnesses, are there concrete, hard examples of the effect it has on a town or city when those buildings are revived? Two big towns are now included. Drogheda people believe the town should be a city; I tend to concur. Will the witnesses provide hard examples of what we can expect when we manage to turn it all around?
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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When it is working. I see the Carlow examples and they are fabulous. It is the issue of the length of time. The initiatives can often come hard and fast. Louth County Council has been very proactive in the past number of years in applying for urban regeneration funding and THRIVE funding, etc. Sometimes the process is very slow and stilted. A great example could be Ardee with Ardee Castle - it has been over and back between public submissions for a number of years. I went in as a councillor in 2021 and we thought we were there. We recently received €1 million to finish the works but they have yet to really start. There are all these town plans and town centre first plans. Councillors seem to be constantly reviewing plans. No sooner do they get to the end of one process than they go into a county development plan. They always seem to be in the throes of submissions, public consultations and new plans but the concrete evidence is slow to come about. I want to give the people of County Louth hope that when it happens, it will be joyous for both towns - Drogheda and Dundalk - and the smaller towns of Ardee, Dunleer, etc.
Ms Orla Murphy:
Our statement covered a report we did, as part of the UCD centre for Irish towns, evaluating the first six pilot towns that took part in the town centre living initiative. It was back in 2018 or 2019. We have drafted that report for the national town centre first office. A positive of this approach is that when there is a combination of a local authority working with the community, engaging with communities through town teams, listening to knowledge and perspectives on the ground, a targeted task force in the local authority and the resources to back that, huge gains can be achieved. One example in the report is Cappoquin, a small town in County Waterford. It has been trialling an innovative model where the local authority works in very close collaboration with the community regeneration company and philanthropic funding. It used compulsory purchase order powers after surveying the town and listening to the perspectives of the town. It identified one project where it could use a combination of negotiating with property owners and using CPOs on properties to redevelop a cluster of properties in the town. It then used experience in the local authority such as the architects to bring it through the planning and Part 8 processes. It is now being redeveloped and it will be for resale. The proceeds will go to buy new properties. There is a rolling, confidence-building collaboration in quite a small town. Apparently it has been really positive.
A larger example, which might be more similar to the scale of Drogheda, was in the smaller town of Castleblayney in County Monaghan. The same approach is taken there, whereby the local authority began with a close survey of the town. It then worked with the town team, again involving community engagement, and leveraged small projects on top of one another. It applied for URDF funding and town centre living initiative funding, did public realm projects, refurbished the public library and used compulsory purchase orders on some houses. They are now building all of these projects one on one. As a result, the impact is huge. It takes time but when there is the combination of dedicated local authority integrated task forces working with the people in the place, leveraging funding schemes and all the skills available in the local authority to make it happen, you can really see gains. It is not happening everywhere but-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Just a reminder on time - I will give a bit of latitude because we do not have a lot of members here at present. Sorry, if Ms Murphy wants to take another moment, that is fine but we are well over time.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone else want to comment?
Ms Jude Sherry:
Louth County Council was extremely successful in using compulsory purchase orders on derelict and empty properties about ten years ago. About 96 properties were purchased within about six or seven months, renovated and turned back into homes. It was a very successful programme but it was cancelled for some unknown reason. We started derelict Ireland five years ago. It is a self-organising community influenced by the vacancy and dereliction task force in Louth, in Drogheda town, which should be city. It has been highly successful in bringing the community, from everyone living there to business owners, to work with the council to try to deal with owners. Drogheda has some beautiful buildings but unfortunately a lot of dereliction. It is about trying to get it into use.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The CPO process seems to be a huge barrier.
I was reminded that ten years ago, I was living in another country and not aware of it, but I remember it being said that there was hesitancy among local authorities to go in hard and fast with CPO projects. I always used to ask what the delay was and would hear a myriad of excuses or reasons for the delay. Perhaps there was an ongoing probate. Perhaps the local authority was unable to find the owner. There are powers there to allow local authorities to give reasonable notice and then execute a CPO. Do the witnesses still see that as a barrier overall?
Ms Jude Sherry:
It should not be a barrier any more. Louth has already shown what is possible. I think the latest figures show that Limerick council is applying a CPO to over 300 properties and bringing those buildings to a builder-ready state and selling them on the market, recouping costs and using that to fund further CPOs. There are successful models out there that should be shared with all local authorities. Those excuses cannot be used any more.
CPOs have a higher success rate than many people expected but they are not ideal for all buildings. We are calling for other measures, such as compulsory sale orders whereby a property is put on the market. If a building is derelict in England, they go in and make it safe and then put it up for auction. They keep the costs of the repairs required and whatever is left over goes back to the owner. There are similar compulsory sale orders in Scotland. That is something that can be combined.
We are also calling for compulsory rental orders for empty habitable homes. Such orders are in place in Amsterdam and Barcelona. Instead of habitable homes, especially new builds, sitting empty for years, they can be put back into use straight away, perhaps with council tenants.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for coming. Representatives of various Departments and local authorities were before the committee earlier to discuss this issue. On the basis of what we heard from them, you would think this is all going fine, they are on top of the issue of vacancy and dereliction and all the figures are there. What strikes me is that it feels like there is a lot of noise and a lack of real delivery in tackling this issue. I will give the witnesses some time. Perhaps they could set out the key things they think need to be done, particularly around the issue of identifying how much vacant and derelict property there is because that seems to be a big issue. Perhaps they could comment on the effectiveness of the vacant property tax.
In particular for Dr. O'Connor and Ms Sherry, I have a big issue with croí cónaithe grant, which, as has been mentioned, is being used for holiday homes and short-term lets. I got a figure from the Department. Some 28% of the vacant property grants have gone to multiple property owners, which means landlords. It seems there is a significant issue there. Will the witnesses, as quickly as possible, give us the key solutions that need to be implemented at local authority and national levels? That would be great.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
I will start on the data aspect. I thank the Deputy for his questions. From our perspective, we do not think the data is there. The data that is there is principally from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, and the GeoDirectory. You cannot compare them. They are measuring different things using different methods. There may be a lack of transparency around some of those methods, and we would question any data on vacancy. If someone were to say they think vacancy is relatively low in this country, we would say they do not know that.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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The figure we heard was a rate of vacancy of approximately 2%.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
Nobody actually knows. In UCD, we have a project funded by the national challenge fund. It is looking at a way to use technology and different data sets to try to understand better the likelihood of vacancy. We are effectively mirroring a technique used in France, which is bringing a lot of proxy and real data sets into a geographic information system, GIS, and using AI to find the likelihood of vacancy. We believe that will come up with some useful results.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Does Dr. Crowe think the figures, for example the 2% vacancy rate and the reports of significant reductions in vacancy, are accurate?
Ms Orla Murphy:
We must not forget that vacancy applies to all buildings and not just vacant homes. A recent study by Rún, in collaboration with UCD and architects in private practice, measured vacant and derelict space in institutional buildings. It estimated there are over 115,000 sq. m of derelict vacant space in institutions. There are lots of different types of vacancy and dereliction. Dr. Crowe could speak more to that.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
Definitions are a massive problem. What do we mean by "vacancy"? There are all sorts of different types of vacancy that we need to understand better. One of the other things we are developing is a taxonomy on vacancy that is linked to and aligned with the adaptive cycle of a building. Every building is constructed and habitable and then disintegrates or is renovated, etc. If you want to design policy that is effective for this general term of "vacancy", you need to know what type of vacancy you are dealing with so that your policy is fit for purpose and tailored to that particular type. We are looking at how we could come up for a code for a building that will tell you a lot, including how long it has been vacant, whether it is voluntary or involuntary vacancy and at what stage of condition the building is at.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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My time is short so I would ask Ms Sherry and Dr. O'Connor to come in.
Ms Jude Sherry:
Overall, there has been improved enforcement of derelict sites There has been a 23% increase in the number of derelict properties registered. However, fewer than 2,000 are registered. There needs to be a 935% increase in those registrations for the councils to match just the derelict homes identified by GeoDirectory, which in itself is not complete. None of the data systems are complete. Unfortunately, in Ireland we do not know exactly how many homes are in the country because all the data shows different things. It is a complete mess.
The Revenue already asks homeowners when they fill out the local property tax form if the property is their primary residence. We would like Revenue to expand that question and ask is the property anybody's primary residence and, if not, is it an empty home - and we believe that should include holiday homes - or an uninhabitable home. Revenue should have that data. Owners of uninhabitable homes currently do not have to pay local property tax. They can be exempt. There are situations where the owners of derelict properties do not have to pay any property tax, which is unacceptable when the rest of us are seeing our local property tax increase.
The Deputy asked about the vacant homes tax. We identified at the time that it was designed to fail, and fail it did. The vacant homes tax is only registering between 1.5% to 3.7% of the vacant homes identified either by the census, GeoDirectory or ESB data. The percentage depends on the data set used. None of those data sets will be accurate, but that is an extremely low application of the tax.
The grants have been highly successful. We would love for them to focus primarily, as was intended when they were introduced, on homeowners who are going to live in these properties. We would like that to be combined with free DIY training to give people the opportunity to reduce costs and do some of the work themselves, if they are interested in doing so. It does not necessarily suit everyone but should be available for those who want it. There are other measures out there that we can consider.
We raised a concern that people have told us they know that the vacant homes grant is being used on holiday homes. We do not have any data in that regard. That is just hearsay, but it is a concern.
It is also a concern for us that owners could now legitimately leave their homes empty for two years, go beyond the rent pressure zone rules because they are exempt after leaving those homes empty for two years and get €50,000 to €70,000 in free money from the State. That is a concern. We are not saying the grant should be cancelled, but there is concern about who gets it and what it is used for. That needs to be checked.
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
The Deputy asked for comments on the grant. To date, there have been 14,000 applications, 10,000 of which have been approved, with only 2,800 granted. I am a recipient of the grant and it has been a success.
The Deputy made comments about principal private residences, PPRs, and holiday homes, etc. The grant allows for one PPR plus one additional house. Some of these projects or homes are complicated. As we know, risk is best given to the party who can handle it. We think that professional small builders should be welcomed into this space. Perhaps instead of stopping the grant, we should consider how to encourage more professionals, small builders and operators in that space to turn these buildings around. Some of the projects are incredibly complicated and we cannot rely on people turning around their PPRs alone if we want to tackle the numbers we see here. We need to change the grant scheme to allow more professionals, small builders, etc., into that space.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I would like an update on the derelict property tax that has been proposed and was mentioned in the budget. What would be the situation for derelict buildings in farmyards in rural parts?
What is the situation there, and what are the witnesses' views on the derelict property tax?
Ms Jude Sherry:
What is being proposed for the new derelict property tax is very vague. There is a delay of two years, which we do not agree with. It should run off the existing derelict registry and then work on the other data sets to expand it to all the derelict properties. If a rural property does not have an eircode, my guess is it will not be subject to the derelict property tax. Revenue needs to know there is a property there in the first place. I am not too sure how it would know the property is there if it does not have an eircode. It depends on those situations.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If a local authority identified a derelict house in the countryside, such as an old farmhouse that may not be in use any more, what would be the situation there?
Ms Jude Sherry:
My view is that the priority should be towns, city centres and village centres, places where it is easy for people to live. I would prioritise those areas first before working on rural areas. There is demand in rural areas for houses and therefore there could be scope, and rural areas can access the grant as well, but from our perspective, the focus should initially be on towns and cities before we expand into wider areas.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Everyone would be delighted if the focus was on towns and villages. That needs to be clarified. There is concern in rural areas.
Dr. Frank O'Connor:
We have heard those concerns during the campaign. People have already contacted us with exactly the same question the Deputy is asking. From our point of view, the most sustainable option is to focus, like we said, on villages, towns and cities. These are the areas where vacancy and dereliction predominate. From the point of view of transport and access to schools, as well as all of the other amenities, it makes a lot of sense. As Ms Sherry said, the details are very vague the moment, but the key issue is that we cannot wait for two years to enforce a new tax when we failed for 35 years to enforce the last one. We must use the data we have, get the enforcement going from January, focus on high-density areas such as towns, villages and, obviously, cities, and get people back into those areas. It would be a huge transformation.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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My second point is about protected structures in urban areas. What are the views of the witnesses on funding to help people who own protected structures with the costs and pressures associated with them? It is a serious issue for some towns and cities.
Ms Orla Murphy:
Protected structures are protected for a reason. They are an important part of our built urban heritage. There are resources within local authorities such as conservation officers and heritage officers who are there to help and support owners of protected structures. They come up in study after study as being more complex to adapt and get back into use, particularly when it comes to trying to also comply with fire regulations and meet disability access regulations - Parts M, L and B of the building regulations. One-stop shops have been mentioned in terms of support we can give, but instead of putting barriers in front of owners, we should be trying to walk them through the process as easily and seamlessly as possible. These buildings are important and it is important they are used and are part of a living heritage in our towns, cities and rural areas. Part of it is about changing a mindset, and moving from placing barriers in front of people who are willing to take on these buildings, and instead taking their hand and walking them through the process, and making sure they get any grants available and are helped to move through all of the building regulation compliance. It is totally possible. With design, we can do it, but we should be making it as seamless, simple and supportive as possible.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I see where Ms Murphy is coming from but, unfortunately, barriers are put in front of these owners. These barriers cost big money and owners are leaving the buildings lying idle, which is a pity. I do not know what could help, possibly through more grants and funding. There are some great grants available, but I would like more thought put in to this to see where the owners of these buildings could be supported and protected, rather than putting barriers in front of them.
Dr. Frank O'Connor:
I take the Deputy's point, but we are in a situation where we have more than 5,000 children without a home, and more than 16,000 people are homeless. We have to change our priorities. Fair enough, protected buildings can be challenging to bring back into use, but we have to focus on what we need, which is more homes. If people cannot afford to update the property themselves, there should be compulsory sales. We need all properties back in use as quickly as possible. It is a broken social contract. To me, keeping properties empty is a social crime. It is hoarding properties when we need them most. It is like in the Famine, when properties were hoarded. The Deputy's point is taken but, at the same time, we have to look at the bigger picture.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The other issue in rural villages and towns is a lack of infrastructure. Some of these buildings are lying idle, with no proper infrastructure to connect them to. That is also a hold-up in the system. What is the solution to that? That is probably outside the remit of the witnesses.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I know that but it is a big issue, especially in rural parts of the country.
Dr. Frank O'Connor:
As people know, with our work, we campaigned for the past five years, travelling across the country. We meet people. The demand to move into villages and towns has increased. I have not got exact data, but demand has increased hugely in the past couple of years. People want to move back into villages and towns. There is existing infrastructure. Public transport is not good enough, but other services are there, such as water services, etc. We need to tap into that.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for missing the start of the meeting. I was in the Chamber speaking about dereliction and the new Finance Bill the Minister has brought forward. I thank Mr. O'Connor and Ms Sherry for the unbelievable work they have done. They have been part of raising awareness about the amount of vacancy and, especially, dereliction and the negativity these cause in communities, towns, villages and cities. In the previous sessions we discussed vacancy and dereliction with local authorities and the Department. They destroy communities. Derelict buildings, dumping and antisocial behaviour have consequences for people who live in communities. Ms Sherry and Dr. O'Connor have offices on Cathedral Road in the heart of Shandon. Great communities are being decimated because of dereliction and vacancy. Fair play to our witnesses for the work they are doing and, I hope, will continue to do.
I have a question about something that was touched on earlier. I spoke to the Minister. We have been campaigning to get Revenue to take over collection of the derelict sites levy. We know that every local authority has a derelict sites register. It might not be up to date, but every local authority has one. Revenue should step in now, collect all the outstanding money owed and impose the levy on every derelict building and land hoarder. Do the witnesses agree?
Ms Jude Sherry:
Absolutely. There is no reason Revenue cannot properly tax the existing 1,900 derelict properties registered across the country from the start of January 2026, instead of delaying it for another year and getting the councils to do another registry of derelict properties, which they failed to do for 35 years. How they will it do it in the next year when they could not do it before now, I do not know. Getting them to publish those lists and then wait another year to implement the tax will take too long. This is telling owners of derelict properties they can hoard away continuously for another few years and watch their wealth assets rise. I totally agree. The tax should be implemented straight away in January.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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My worry is it will take longer than two years, that this will be kicked down the road again. I have serious concerns this will not even be implemented within two years.
In relation to the vacant homes tax, as noted earlier, there are 80,000 vacant properties according to the CSO. According to GeoDirectory, the figure is much higher. According to some estimates, there are more than 160,000 vacant properties. Only 3,000 homes have been levied under the vacant homes tax. This is a scandal. It is a joke. What are the witnesses’ opinions on the vacant homes tax? I would like to hear the thoughts of anyone who wants to comment.
Ms Orla Murphy:
We need a carrot and a stick. We have lots of carrots. The tax is a stick that also has to accompany that. The Deputy mentioned the negative effect that vacancy and dereliction have on communities. We have observed that effect, particularly when the dereliction is clustered. We know numerous towns in the west and Border counties where whole streets are still vacant and derelict, and they have been for years.
Yes, that decimates communities, but it is important to state that all of those buildings already constitute embodied carbon. By 2030 we need to halve all of our carbon emissions. That stock of buildings is unused and does not just extend to houses but to all types of buildings. This is an opportunity to help us meet our carbon targets as well as rejuvenating and regenerating communities. It is a no-brainer really. We need to use the levies of tax as well as incentives, and to use every lever at our disposal as a matter of urgency to tackle the problem. Otherwise, we will be here again in four years’ time and will have the same conversation again. Meanwhile, we will only have one year left before we have to halve our carbon emissions. We absolutely have to take action.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a win-win.
Dr. Frank O'Connor:
New data was released recently showing that 72,000 homes were connected to electricity. The timeframe mentioned by the Deputy was for 3,000 collected. There were 65,000 of those homes empty for at least two years. That is when they only collected for 3,000. It gives an indication that whatever data you look at, those numbers are crazy.
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
There is a balance when it comes to levies and grants. Behind each building is an owner and a family and a lot of history. We find some of the larger buildings are quite complicated in terms of cost and technical aspects, but also ownership. When we looked at the 23 buildings in our study, we had some of the larger buildings. They were woefully unviable to a large scale. The current grant scheme in my opinion works for single units, a small house of between 60 sq. m and 70 sq. m on a main street. That is absolutely perfect for €70,000. We are now talking about larger buildings. The profile of ownership is perhaps someone at the later stages of their life. Why would they want to invest so much money for a return they will not see? We need to understand their motivations and wants and then line up enablers such as grants with their wants. Then, if they do not work, we can certainly look at levies and taxes, but we need to understand the complications and costs with some of these large buildings. The SCSI is going to begin new research into these larger buildings next year and make recommendations. Hopefully, we can unlock these buildings either via grants or consultation to levies and taxes, etc.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make sure everybody gets an opportunity to speak. I will go to Senator McCarthy, then I will speak followed by Senator Noonan and Deputy Sheehan.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. I reiterate what Dr. O'Connor and Ms Sherry have said about the homeless figures. I was just up in the Seanad. There are now more than 5,100 children in homeless emergency accommodation. You think, "Wow." I travel home from here. I go to Naas and travel through Kilmainham and there are a lot of derelict properties. There are a lot of shops in the town of Naas but over the shops is not being used at all. It is nearly unforgivable that we have what we have and yet it is not being used. Is the vacancy grant mentioned by Mr. Taaffe enough? It is €50,000 plus another €20,000 for vacancy and dereliction. Should that be looked at? I know different people who have applied for the grant but, by God, it is not enough by far to do up an old house. What are their views on that?
Ms Jude Sherry:
On whether it is enough, our focus in terms of increasing it is on people on the housing waiting list, minimum wage or essential workers. The grants maybe should be prioritised for people who are struggling to get a mortgage and to help them get their forever home. In those cases, a lot of people would agree with prioritising people who will live in these properties. People will always ask for more money if they can get it for free. Everybody will be looking for more money if it is available. When it comes to renovating houses and it comes to viability, we need to be careful that we do not just talk about profit. We need to talk about affordability for the people who will live in these homes. It is important to distinguish. It is often cheaper to renovate existing homes than it is to build new, especially if you try to reduce those costs by not doing large extensions or large structural reworks on the house. Our priority would be to try to keep the cost as low as possible and give free DIY training to people so they can do as much work as possible themselves. Of course, that is safe work and not structural, electrical or plumbing. In those situations, I think it is a generous grant and should be sufficient. However, if someone is looking to make a profit there are different calculations.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I am not talking about profit. I am talking about people and their forever homes. What Ms Sherry has said is about the affordability of a house. My next question is for Mr. Taaffe. When my parents were starting out, they needed £3,000 to buy a house. Now, starting off in Dublin you need half a million euro. You nearly have to be a millionaire to have a starter home. Something has gone wrong somewhere in the meantime. In what ways can we minimise the cost of housing? I have had different builders in here to discuss the cost of housing. A three-bedroom semi could cost €230,000 but once you add on all of the rest of it, it becomes more than €400,000 because you have VAT and all the different aspects. What are the three most effective ways we can minimise the cost of housing, especially for people on the housing list?
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
I presume we are just talking about new builds. We obviously see a reduction in tax. That is a soft cost. A soft cost is something we need to target, like reducing tax and land costs. After looking at soft costs, how do we tackle hard costs? We need to increase the amount of labour and the number of apprentices. Unfortunately, trying to get the costs down is not going to happen overnight. It will have to be increasing supply and increasing the amount of labour we have in the industry to bring it down. We can look at different procurement methods and large-scale schemes, etc. Ultimately, we are in a high-cost environment and to tip that back down will take a few years through supply and focusing on labour and costs.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Surely the Government has to play its part in that because there is a huge chunk of the cost of first-time buyers’ houses going to the Government.
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
We are verging on to new build here. Unfortunately, due to the market constraints at the moment in terms of supply that will depict the cost of a new build. We are there at the moment, so we are trying to look at methods to bring it down through innovative forms of construction, etc. It will slowly find its place and come down. However, for the moment we have to reuse the existing buildings we have. We have to look at ways outside of new build.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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We have to regulate because you can see what happened with pyrite, etc., but are our regulations too extreme? There is no Toyota Yaris house any more. There is only Mercedes. The specs are very high. Is that an issue?
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
No. The specs are high because, ultimately, we want a good end product. We want a good house and a high BER. We should try to obtain high-quality homes for people. It is as simple as that. Labour and other costs are high. That is where we are. We could bring regulations down, but perhaps we should not.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move, but Ms Sherry wants to briefly come in.
Ms Jude Sherry:
On cost viability and affordability, a big issue is the sales price of a derelict or vacant property if someone is buying a property. A small derelict cottage was up for sale in Cork last week for €200,000 for a 50 sq. m tiny, very derelict property. Those are insane prices. That is why we are calling for taxes, compulsory sales and compulsory rental orders. It is not that you will have to enforce them against every owner. It is that if owners get an indication that there will be serious repercussions for owning derelict property and houses from now into the future, they will start selling. If they start selling quickly and we get enough of these properties onto the market, that will bring down the initial sales price and make them affordable.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here and for the work they do in highlighting this issue. We had a good session earlier. I made the point that despite the frustrations there is a lot more talk now about vacancy and dereliction, which is a good thing. We just need to turn that into action and get movement on it. I expressed my own frustration earlier that, whatever the figure, whether 80,000, 150,000 or somewhere in between, the overwhelming majority of those property owners are allowed to leave their properties vacant and derelict with no consequences. That is not acceptable and has to change. I asked a parliamentary question on the vacant homes tax, and it is fewer than 3,000 properties.
It only captures a tiny number. I know and share the view that it was not set up in a good way initially. I will address my questions to Dr. Crowe and Ms Murphy first as they raised the data issue. Is the only realistic way to capture the data on vacant properties to walk our towns and villages to get the real figure of vacancy and dereliction?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No. Is the only way to get the real figure of vacancy and dereliction to actually walk our towns and villages? Is that the only accurate way of doing that?
Dr. Philip Crowe:
In many ways, a ground truth thing is extremely useful, which is what the Leas-Chathaoirleach is describing. However, we can use technology and use the data sets we should have but there are all sorts of issues to do with the data-sharing culture in this country, which is a whole other topic. However, we should be able to put together a data model that would give us a very good indication of the likelihood of vacancy, the type of vacancy, the condition of buildings and their energy efficiency so that we understand our built environment. At the moment, we do not understand our built environment because we do not have the data.
Ms Orla Murphy:
The figures on vacancy are not the only figures that are important. They are quantitative figures but there are also qualitative assessments of our towns and villages, which are really important to build into a mix to understand all of our urban places. Fixing vacancy on its own will not completely solve regeneration problems. It has to be holistically, qualitatively and quantitatively assessed.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree completely. Underutilisation is a different issue from vacancy again. The first and second floors could be empty but the ground floor might be utilised so, therefore, the building is not considered vacant. That is a whole other subject.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will move to Ms Sherry and Dr. O'Connor and thank them for their passion on this issue. They have done incredible work. They have looked at it closely. I imagine ownership problems are a significant issue. Sometimes, the issue could be establishing who the owner is, if there are financial institutions or receivers involved or if there are family disputes. To what extent do they believe that will be a blockage in addressing vacancy and dereliction?
Ms Jude Sherry:
If an owner does not want to be found, they can hide their ownership. That is a fundamental problem we have in Ireland. We do not know how many buildings there are because we do not have the data. That, combined with not knowing exactly who owns the properties, is a massive problem. It was not in our opening statement but in one of our previous reports, we called for giving all owners a five year period to claim ownership of properties if there is no ownership known. To clarify it, registration with the Land Registry was introduced in 2011 but there are still many properties that have not been put into it. We should start moving from the deeds into that Land Registry and have a modernised system for land ownership.
Dr. Frank O'Connor:
Sometimes it is not as difficult as you would think to find the owner. In some cases, you can just go next door, as we have done, and ask the people who live next door to the house. You can then find the owner quite quickly. We also need to move quicker on the ones of which we know the owner. In Macroom, Dunnes Stores owns 20 apartments that have been vacant for 20 years. We know the owner-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Focus on those.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We should focus on those initially. I totally agree. I agree with an awful lot of what the witnesses are saying. The vacant home grant was referred to as being focused on owner-occupiers. I believe it should be more widespread in its application. Personally, I do not see an issue with a small builder developing five properties from a vacant property. If they will bring them back into use, that needs to be the overriding objective here.
I will turn to SCSI on this. It obviously makes a strong statement on the cost of renovating some of these properties. Is that really an issue the State needs to solve? At the end of the day, someone owns these properties. If they are not in a position to fund a renovation, they need to dispose of the property. Is it not that simple?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Go on. I am putting it to Mr. Taaffe.
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
That is from my involvement in the industry and being heavily involved with the grants. The people who have owned these buildings for generations or decades have already invested in the streetscape and the area. Some of these people have been providing services for decades. They need to be assisted where possible. In return, there will be VAT receipts, tax receipts, etc. Ultimately, there are a lot of good property owners out there who need assistance. Let us say the State puts €70,000 in. Speaking from someone who has done it, the owner will put hundreds of thousands of euro in. There is give and take and the owners definitely give a lot.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. We could develop that point further but we are caught for time.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for letting me in. I am not a member of the committee but I have been following the debate all afternoon and it is really interesting. I have a more general question. I note the Minister has put initiatives in the budget and is finally taking on board some of the recommendations that have been made for many years on tackling vacancy and dereliction. There could also be a fantastic opportunity for our towns, villages and cities from a heritage perspective. The past method was to level out sites and try to infill development while really wonderful buildings already existed on these streets. We could bring about a whole coherence to our town centres about the patterns. We can look at Paddy Shaffrey's old book written in 1975 about Irish towns and see how unique they are in a European context. I would welcome the witnesses' thoughts on that opportunity.
Some local authorities do not have architectural conservation officers. I do not think there are sufficient skills within local authorities to monitor, evaluate and support. One of the elements we talked about was a one-stop-shop as an enabling force rather than something to hold property owners back. If we are to do this in the right way, especially looking at these pre-1919 buildings, the opportunity to do something very spectacular with our towns is there for us but we need a lot of skills. We will need a lot of hand skills, which are the traditional skills, but also conservation-grade architects and ACOs in all the local authorities. In the bigger local authorities, we need significant teams to work with property owners. I welcome any thoughts on that.
Ms Orla Murphy:
It is important to remember that in terms of heritage, our towns and urban areas are living examples as heritage as a living thing. For towns to continue to adapt and evolve their heritage, they have to adapt, be lived in and be used as places of work, living, schooling, play and culture. They need all of that. There are incredible resources and skills within local authorities to help reimagine towns and continue their future story. The towns we have seen that have really moved on in the past ten years are the ones that can tell the story of what they want the future of their towns to be. They understand what their unique selling point is and what makes them special.
It is also important to say that all towns are unique and we would not want them all to be the same. They need that tailored, co-ordinated, targeted and imaginative approach as well. That makes them desirable places in which to live and makes people want to take on empty properties. All of these pieces of the jigsaw are completely connected and we need them all to be working. The opportunity is huge.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
If we reframe vacancy not as a problem but as adaptive capacity of our towns to address societal challenges such as housing and carbon targets but also the revitalisation of towns, we can start to build up a map of the adaptive capacity of the town. The scale issue was brought up. Instead of constantly talking of individual buildings, which we have done today, and going building by building, we start to look at urban blocks, co-ordination and the heritage that is the urban morphology. That is a key part of the town. If we start trying to co-ordinate at that level, we can start to find solutions.
Many of the solutions for these complex buildings are to do with a lack of co-ordination, a dispute over the title or a difficulty getting a fire cert part B or a part M. Through co-ordination and working together, many of these problems can be solved. A lot of people in towns say they do not want to live in the town centre because they would not have a front or back garden or anywhere to store their bins. An awful lot of these things could be solved if you actually sat down and got people together.
There is a concrete example I worked on with Gráinne Shaffrey, Paddy Shaffrey's daughter, a number of years ago in Castleblayney. Ms Shaffrey is still working on it and there were property clinics to learn why the buildings were vacant. There were really complex stories and very complex buildings. There are lots of buildings behind the buildings, so the potential is huge for these back lands and co-ordinating to get compact urban growth. In Castleblayney, Monaghan County Council with a town team, as was mentioned, has worked together to look at these clusters and see how they can develop this in a co-ordinated fashion. Suddenly, you get big numbers and the heritage is retained.
To use Castleblayney as an example, these are often little lanes. You preserve those and use them as connections to the back lands and to more housing. Therefore, the urban heritage is as important as the individual buildings and we have a chance of doing something big through co-ordination.
Mr. Frank O'Connor:
I agree with what is being said. When we moved back here, the one thing we were shocked to see was the kind of public squalor. We looked at dereliction, vacancy, homelessness, the housing crisis and heritage. I was away for over 20 years. It was only as we started to travel around the country that we recognised the beauty of our towns hidden behind that. One thing we have observed as well is that the ACAs do not do a lot.
Mr. Frank O'Connor:
We see it in Cork first hand where things are supposed to be conserved. You can have a street or a terrace where you live that is 200 years old and is not protected but is intact and we love it, while across the road is an ACA and they have demolished it all. We are with the Senator on the one-stop-shop.
I will make one final point. We are doing up our house very slowly in parallel and we found exactly what the Senator was saying. The skills are not there. I have had to learn myself how to do things like how to work with lime on a building that is 200 years old, as has Ms Sherry. It is amazing but it is slow. The points the Senator is making are important. Regarding well-being, our vitality and our sense of place, it is the heritage that brings all these things together.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I agree. On the point Mr. O'Connor made about the conversations with neighbours and on streets, we tried it in Kilkenny purely from a social experiment perspective and it is amazing. There was the old retail families who used to live on streets. Separately - and I would welcome Mr. O'Connor's views on this - I feel there seems to be a lack of coherence around that. There are lots of good grants. There is BHIS, HSF and lots of good grant schemes and small incentive schemes that will get us to the scale we need to get to with this while looking at the town as an entity street by street. It concerns me that-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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-----while there is this drive now to tackle vacancy and dereliction, we may lose some of the unique fabric of our towns in the rush to do that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Make one quick point.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
Ms Ali Harvey from the Heritage Council has said for many years that we focus in this country on building by building. We do not have programmes for revitalisation at the scale of a town. The funding is not there. It is funding individual building by individual building and asking property owners to become developers. If we look at a country like France, they have multiple programmes for the town centre, for small villages and it is renewal at scale. We are just missing that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Crowe. We will take Deputy Sheehan followed by Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Obviously, we do not have a particularly accurate picture of the level of vacancy that is there at the moment. How do we get that accurate picture? Could the witnesses put a somewhat accurate figure on the number of vacant homes, as they believe them to be, in the country and the percentage vacancy rate? Will the new vacant property tax actually work? Is there any rationale, in the view of the witnesses, for delaying that? Do they believe the current definition of vacancy, or of a vacant home or building, needs to be changed? Do they have a view on the uptake of schemes? I have been looking at the uptake of the derelict property scheme versus the living cities initiative and there is a bit of a disparity there. There does not seem to be the same level of take-up at all in the living cities initiative. Can the witnesses quantify why the living cities initiative is not working, given that it has just been extended in the most recent budget?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Those are directed at the whole group or whoever wants to take them.
Dr. Philip Crowe:
On data and getting the accurate numbers, if the Deputy was to ask me what the accurate number was, I would say I did not know and I was spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. My main hurdle is to do with data sharing and data-sharing culture in this country. All sorts of blockages are put in the way of a research project that I am trying to run, which has huge potential but the data-sharing culture is the problem. It is not vacancy, as such, that is the problem.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Is there anyone who can tell?
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Do we need to have some sort of legislative mechanism to force the different organisations to share the data?
Dr. Philip Crowe:
That is an excellent question because what is fascinating is that certain organisations like Revenue and the Land Development Agency have those legislative powers to ask certain organisations to share their data and the organisations still do not. Therefore, there is a much more complex picture as to why we do not have access to certain data sets. It is definitely possible, if we could deal with those data-sharing issues, to have pretty accurate figures. The most accurate figures of vacancy in this country were done about six or seven years ago with the collaborative town centre health check, which was boots on the ground. They came up with figures. By way of example, Dundalk town centre had 24% vacancy at ground floor and possibly 80% at upper floors. We do not know across the country at this moment what the figures are. Other countries do. There are methods of doing this. We are just not there.
Somebody else may want to take the question on the derelict property tax. If we do not have good data, how will we manage that? It would be very interesting to hear from Revenue, which is now going to have to look after this, how it feels about the data. Not being able to get reliable data is what has crippled the vacant homes tax.
Ms Jude Sherry:
We know the data is a massive problem but our definition of vacancy is also a massive problem. Even within the Government, it is different depending on what it is doing. For the vacant homes tax, it is if you use your building less than 30 days a year, which is insane. I do not know how they came up with that definition because it is out of whack with how the rest of the country defines it based on whether it is a primary residence. It could be six months, which is defined as a long-term vacancy in Amsterdam. It could a year, 18 months or two years. That is up to how that time period is set.
When it comes to the vacant homes grant, that is a home that has been empty for two years. Therefore, there are massive differences. When we look at the applications for vacant homes grants, there were just 3,700 in its first year. That number changed within the first year to 37,000 because it is self-reporting. The owners decide themselves whether they want to report it. In Canada, everyone is assumed to have a vacant home. They have to fill out their property tax every year and if a person does not do so, they are fined for the vacant homes tax. People have to fill out a form stating they are living in the property as their primary residence. We do not know where people are living. We do not know which homes are used for holiday homes as opposed to which homes are used for primary residences. That is where there are massive problems as well. We would like to see Revenue combining the data sets, as complicated as that is, as well as getting people to state they are living in a house and that it is their primary residence, along with other family members or whoever else is living there. That is something that is done in the UK on a very regular basis through the council tax. In the Netherlands, people have to have a registration of their primary residence. That is tied into their tax and banks. People cannot open a bank account without it. It is tied into their health insurance and healthcare as well. It ties in multiple areas into one primary residence registration.
We do not know exactly how many vacant or derelict properties are out there but we know the vacant tax is only applying to between 1.5% to 3.7% of the homes that have been identified from other bodies, whether that is the census or GeoDirectory.
The challenge with the living city initiative is that it is only tied into a few different areas. It is not across the country. It is possibly not as attractive as the grant because it is a tax break over a ten-year period as opposed to a cash grant, which is obviously more attractive.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to get the opportunity to be here and thank the witnesses for coming. Some of the issues I will raise I have already raised several times in the Dáil Chamber. It is sad when I do not see a response coming.
When we talk about vacancy and dereliction, how to deal with it and how to sort it out, we must look back at how it began or why it happened. To me, our streetscapes and townscapes got affected when local authorities and Government policy at the time gave planning to multinational supermarket companies to build a big retail estate outside of towns. That took the footfall out of towns and it took away the problem of parking for the customers. You can drive practically to the door of any Tesco, Dunnes or any of these shops and park there because they have their own parking and you will not be caught by the traffic warden or anything. It will not be a problem.
This is why most of our towns and villages have disintegrated.
In relation to the residential side of it, there is no impetus or onus, and no kind of incentive, for people with a second house. I have several times given the example that, from Kenmare town through Kilgarvan and down to within seven miles of Killarney, there have been 55 houses vacant on the side of the road for as long as I can remember now. You could step out of the houses onto the bus. There is a bus going both ways every half hour into Killarney. You could not ask for more. There are connections then on to Cork and everywhere else. There are two reasons the owners will not rent out the houses. One has to do with the laws that are there now, whereby the RTB favours the tenant and the owners are afraid they cannot get their houses back when they need them. This is paramount and needs to be sorted out. The other reason is that we have to realise that, in those cases, a landlord may only get €1,000 or €1,100 a month for the house. These owners might have other jobs and if they rent out the properties, they will pay half of what they get in tax. They are left with maybe €500 to deal with all the bills and to keep the house in order. This is the gospel truth. They do not see that it as worth their while because they are treated in the 50% tax bracket. In other countries, there is a residential tax of 20% and it has nothing to do with the income tax. We need to adopt something like that, or what would be way better would be to give them what is available to Ukrainians, where people get €600 for a house tax free and the Government is actually paying it. I would see nothing wrong with tenants paying it. Tenants looking for places to rent are in a bay way and many of them would be glad to pay the €600 themselves but the landlord needs to get it tax free. If they get more for the houses, then all right, and let them pay the tax on the extra amount. I am only asking about what the witnesses' views are. Am I mad or is there sense in what I am saying? Do we think it should be explored?
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
I do not think the Deputy is mad. There is definitely some sense there. It is interesting. Obviously, we have the tax on rental income, which is one issue. When we look at it in terms of vacant homes, they are risky from the outset and the cost profile is high, and the reward at the end is taxed so heavily that it disincentivises people turning these houses around. Why go through the process of a difficult project that will cost a lot when at the very end the tax is extremely high and the landlord may not see a break-even point for a decade or so? In terms of this topic that we are discussing today, I would say "Yes" and ask whether we can have some sort of tax relief for someone who goes through the process of turning a vacant building into a rental property. That is a good point. There need to be proper reliefs and incentives at the end of a project to encourage someone to start the project. That would be a good view that we have on it.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We have to realise that, when a house is vacant, it starts to smell, it gets damp and different things happen to it even after 12 months of being idle. One could at least have the windows open but vacancy leads to dereliction. We need to start there. I would be glad of the support to talk to the Government because I seem to be getting nowhere with it. I am at this for the last two or three years. I went through all the houses on a certain road. I know each and every one of the people and it is not worth their while for what they would get. The Government is the biggest beneficiary of renting a property. Well, maybe that is not the case with those owners that have 20 or 30 houses, given that they are on the lower rate of tax. I do not know what they are on, but they come under corporation tax or whatever rules. No, I am referring to the person with one or two houses. They are paying tax at 50%, so it is not worth their while.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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These houses are all around the country. They are in villages like Kilgarvan, Gneeveguilla and Scartaglin and different places. There are houses all over the place. People lived in them, they were happy in them, and I see no reason why it could not happen again. There needs to be the will. For it to work, the Government must realise that it must play its part as well.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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There can be many reasons why they will not sell it. One would be sentimental value or another reason. They might be waiting for a son or daughter to come back. We see so many young people emigrating these days. I was at a function the other night for ten of them who would be going away before Christmas. They will not be here for the Christmas dinner this year. They are going to Australia. They are holding on to the houses. They will not rent them in the meantime. There are different reasons why they are holding onto them. There might be someone belonging to them in hospital and they are waiting to see if they will come back or whatever, or see if there is an improvement in their story. There are different reasons.
Ms Jude Sherry:
What we are calling for here is also for people who have emotional attachments to buildings. It must be really hard for them to watch the building decay and not be lived in, and not to have families enjoy them. We would like to see mental health supports for people like that to perhaps help them let go of these homes and sell them on, and then the houses could go to families. It would be to help them get over that emotional attachment. Not everyone is going to agree with that.
On tenants' rights, if a landlord is having family moving back in, that is a justified reason for an eviction of a tenant under the current law. That is currently a possibility.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Can I just say one last thing?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has ten seconds. He is pushing his luck.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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To me, a vacant property tax is not the way to go. That is a stick rather than a carrot approach. I would not support that any day of the week and I will not be. If the house is not fit to live in, then it is not worth going after. It would be very easy to show whoever is after the owner that the house is not fit to live in on a certain day, and no vacant property tax would be applied to it.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, Deputy Healy-Rae and I would completely disagree on that. I believe that the vacant homes tax does not go far enough. It should be collected by Revenue and it should at least be at 7%, the same as the derelict sites levy. It should be collected immediately, or let us say 1 January 2026. The vacant homes tax is the so low at the moment and so little of it is actually being applied that it is a smokescreen by the Government to make people think that it is being strong on vacancy and dereliction when it actually is not. I made the point to the Minister last week that he was all carrot and no stick. We need to get these houses turned around.
I have a question for the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI. Its report seems stark and lays out similar issues to what we heard from the local government sector. Perhaps the tax breaks on new apartments could instead have been applied to renovating derelict buildings, particularly the large ones that we discussed earlier. In Cork, for example, we have the St. Kevin's Hospital site, the old Abbey shopping centre, and the Good Shepherd Convent site. Would that have made more sense and been a more viable option to get these big buildings turned around? The grant at the moment is worth nothing to these big developments. They could be turned around for housing for people on the social housing list, for people who are in emergency accommodation, and for those who are homeless. They could also be for those who want to buy and rent.
Mr. Nick Taaffe:
This is an absolutely great point. This topic is about using existing buildings, particularly large buildings that could accommodate six to a dozen units. The grant at the moment is great for single-use building with the principal private residence relief, PPR, but we need to adjust the grant and provide a better carrot for multi-unit properties. There are a lot of such properties around the country, in both public and private ownership, and we need to tackle those. We will get these numbers down if we tackle these larger multi-unit buildings, without a doubt. They have great uses for social housing, front-line workers, etc. They are already there and serviced. They have the infrastructure, utilities, etc. I agree with Deputy Gould that we need to focus on that, but let us balance out the carrot with the stick for these. Definitely.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will go back to the point made earlier by Ms Murphy on the consequences of vacancy and dereliction for communities.
Maybe the four witnesses might want to comment. I can see the dereliction. I live on Cathedral Road, Shandon, which is the most historic spine that runs all the way down to North Main Street and all the way up to Barrack Street. What should be an iconic and historic part of Cork was just let fall asunder. Some buildings have now been bought by compulsory purchase order, CPO, but more needs to be done. If you went to North Main Street your heart would sink when you would look at the condition. Similarly, in Blackpool, if you walk up Blackpool you will see Tomás Mac Curtain's shop. He was a former Lord Mayor of Cork who was shot by the Black and Tans. There is Terence MacSwiney who died in Brixton Prison on hunger strike. There is the history associated with old coopers and mills in the area. We should make these areas into a heritage hub that runs across the historic spine of Cork. Instead, these areas have been left in a state of dereliction and vacancy. I walked that spine with the city manager of Cork ten years ago and it is nearly as bad now as it was then.
A point was made that the reasons people hold on to properties is complicated. I think it is immoral and wrong for someone to sit on a property for ten, 15, 20, 30 or 40 years and let it rot. I do not believe a person has the right to do that when we are in the middle of a housing crisis. I also think the CPO laws, which we discussed in the session beforehand, have to be tougher. Can Ms Murphy comment?
Ms Orla Murphy:
I agree. I suppose the Deputy is bringing in the perspectives of social ethics, social justice and spatial justice to the argument because it is not just financial, numbers or data. These are places with history and heritage where people have lived and where people can live again. It is not just houses; it is all the buildings in our towns and urban environments. I think the purpose of a tax is to get these properties - which have been vacant for a long time, are derelict and are sitting there with embodied carbon and histories, heritage and stories - released to be re-used. It is to encourage that to happen in order that towns can be compact settlements in compliance with the national planning framework and all of the national strategic objectives to meet housing targets, and to make towns and cities great places to be.
The Deputy spoke about shopping moving to the outskirts and the lack of transport where that has happened. All of these things to make towns walkable, liveable and age-friendly places to live - as were echoed in the report by the Housing Commission - are all part of the same jigsaw. That is what we have tried to say today. It is not just tax and data that will solve the problem. This problem has to be holistically solved. If we see it as an opportunity, as opposed to an intractable wicked problem and challenge, then that will help us change our mindset towards solving it in a really cohesive, co-ordinated and tenacious way at all levels, from top down and the bottom of society working together.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a good way to end this discussion and I will steal that line. Let us see it as an opportunity rather than an intractable problem. Can we agree on that? Agreed.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being with us. We could spend the entire night discussing this topic and people's passion about this issue came across. I think we all agree that we need to do an awful lot more about both vacancy and dereliction, and I will add the underutilisation of buildings because it is a significant part of this. We will keep the conversation going. We, as a committee, will do what we can to progress initiatives and schemes, both carrots and sticks, to tackle this issue, and with a degree of urgency which is needed. Again, I thank the witnesses and ask them to depart because we will now have a short private meeting. We appreciate their time.