Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 15 October 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Anaerobic Digestion: Discussion
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have apologies from Senator Lynch. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings of the meeting of any matters arising from the proceedings.
I advise members of the constitutional arrangement whereby they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. A member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The purpose of this meeting is to discuss anaerobic digestion. The committee is going to hear from several witnesses. From Nephin Energy Limited, I welcome Mr. Tom O'Brien, group chief executive. From Nephin Renewable Gas, we have Mr. Graeme Lochhead, managing director, and Mr. Michael Sweeney, operations director. From the Irish Bioenergy Association, we have Mr. Seán Finan, CEO, Mr. Paddy Phelan, director, and Mr. Stephen McCormack, project executive. From Bia Energy, we have Dr. Stephen Nolan, technical lead. Our final witness is Mr. Brendan Gildea, the owner of Riverview Farm. The opening statements have been circulated and members have had an opportunity to read them. All the witnesses are very welcome, tá fáilte rompu. We will allow five minutes for the opening statements and will then proceed to questions and answers. I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his opening statement on behalf of Nephin Energy.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
I am group chief executive of Nephin Energy. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Graeme Lochhead, managing director, Nephin Renewable Gas, and Mr. Michael Sweeney, our operations director. Graeme is a dairy farmer’s son from south-west Scotland. The fifth generation of his family still farms there. Michael is a farmer’s son from west Clare, where the fourth generation of his family continues to farm. Both my parents come from farming families. My mother’s family are from near Abbeyfeale in west Limerick, and my father’s family is from Aghada in east Cork. My uncles and cousins on both sides still farm the same land that has been in our families for over a century.
It is a real honour to be invited here today to speak to the Committee on Agriculture and Food. For us, this is not just a professional matter; it is deeply personal. Growing up in a farming background, we saw at first hand the resilience, determination and ingenuity that rural life demands. That upbringing shaped how we view energy and sustainability today, not as abstract policy issues, but as opportunities to strengthen rural Ireland and secure its future.
There is only one practical solution in the short to medium term to help decarbonise Ireland’s gas system, and that is biomethane, produced through the process of anaerobic digestion. Ireland’s potential here is extraordinary. The European Commission has confirmed that Ireland has the best agri-feedstock per capita in the entire EU. Gas Networks Ireland estimates that we could produce up to 14.8 TWh of biomethane annually, which is equivalent to nearly 30% of Ireland’s current gas demand.
To put that in perspective, Denmark, which ranks second in the EU, already produces around 40% of its gas from agricultural sources and aims to reach 100% by 2030. If Denmark can do it, so can Ireland. Biomethane is not just about decarbonisation or hitting climate targets, as important as those goals are. It is about rural renewal, energy security and economic opportunity. Biomethane is unique among renewable energies in that it generates and keeps real value in the local economy. It supports a true circular economy. It improves soil and water quality; produces a natural biofertiliser that replaces imported chemical fertilisers; helps farmers to manage nutrients sustainably; and reduces agricultural emissions while maintaining productive land use. Beyond that, it creates new income streams for farmers that are stable and long term. It generates local jobs in construction, logistics, transport, operations and maintenance and helps revitalise rural economies that have too often been left behind by the energy transition. In short, biomethane turns farm by-products into rural income and opportunity, creating a win-win for farmers, communities and for Ireland’s climate goals.
At Nephin Renewable Gas, we are proud to be helping to plant the seeds of this green gas revolution. We have brought together a team of professionals who have over 200 years of experience in delivering in the renewable gas and agricultural sectors. The Nephin team has been involved in numerous renewable gas projects across Ireland, the UK and around the world, giving Nephin the deep technical and operational expertise required to deliver safe, modern, state-of-the-art anaerobic digestion plants. Last month, we broke ground on our Ballinrobe project in County Mayo, Ireland’s largest agri-based biomethane plant and the first commercial-scale facility of its kind in the country. When complete, Ballinrobe will process 90,000 tonnes of farm waste each year, producing over 85 GWh of sustainable Irish biomethane, enough to heat more than 12,000 homes annually. The project represents €200 million in local investment over the project lifetime. It will support over 100 direct and indirect jobs and provide farmers with long-term, secure revenue streams. Just as important, it will return a nutrient-rich biofertiliser to the land, improving soil health, water quality and farm productivity. Ballinrobe is just the beginning. We now have seven projects in various stages of development across Ireland, each designed to maximise rural benefits, support local farmers and strengthen Ireland’s energy independence.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. O'Brien. I am conscious TDs may be drawn out to Dáil business between the tillage debate and the expected vote. We will facilitate that. Members will be in and out. I call Mr. Finan.
Mr. Seán Finan:
I thank the Chair, committee and clerk for inviting us to present today. I am the CEO of the Irish Bioenergy Association, IrBEA. I am joined by my colleague, Paddy Phelan, a director of IrBEA and CEO of the South East Energy Agency, and Stephen Mc Cormack, a project executive with IrBEA. Stephen will deliver the first part of this statement and I will conclude.
Mr. Stephen McCormack:
The Irish Bioenergy Association was established in 1999 as the representative body for the bioenergy sector on the island of Ireland. Our members and work span the sustainable bioenergy sectors of biomass, biogas, biofuels, biochar, energy crops and wood fuels. Our biogas and biomethane members cover the full supply chain and include farmers, feedstock suppliers, project developers, technology providers, energy users and a large number of service providers to the sector. IrBEA is an active and proud member of the European Biogas Association. The biomethane sector is mainstream across Europe and worldwide, while the sector's potential in Ireland has not been realised yet. There are over 20,000 operational anaerobic digestion plants around the EU and several million across the world. Favourable policy measures are driving the development of the industry across Europe. Ireland is far behind our EU counterparts in policy development terms and using this technology, with currently around 15 biogas plants operating in Ireland. Anaerobic digestion technology is used broadly across the wastewater treatment and processing sectors as a mainstream, reliable and mature technology. Various EU reports have indicated that Ireland per capita has one of the highest potential capacities for biomethane across Europe. Many Irish reports on biomethane feedstock availability also confirm this potential. One example is the recent report completed by the Southeast Energy Agency under the Interreg Regency project. There are many opportunities at all scales for the use of anaerobic digestion technology. In Ireland, we are seeing the deployment of anaerobic digestion technology at all scales, including micro scale, which processes domestic food waste to produce biogas for domestic cooking use. Small farm-scale uses slurries and farmyard manures to produce biogas to offset existing fossil-based energy sources on the farm and large-scale developments use a variety of feedstocks from many sources. The regulatory and support requirements are hugely different depending on the scale.
Mr. Seán Finan:
The development of favourable policy and supports for wind and solar in the form of the renewable electricity support scheme, RESS, is proof that a supportive policy structure can build and mobilise the market and the sector. While the renewable electricity sector has its challenges, it has a supporting policy and is on the road to delivery so the sector can focus on regulatory challenges and the roll-out of projects. The biomethane sector is only at a starting point following the publication of the national biomethane strategy. This Government strategy sets out that a capital grant programme and a renewable heat obligation scheme are the mechanisms to grow the market and develop the sector. The draft heads of bill for the renewable heat obligation were published in July. IrBEA on behalf of members calls on the Minister to immediately publish the long-term projections for the renewable heat obligation scheme in terms of the obligation rate beyond the initial two years. This is required for developers to secure finance and also offtake agreements. We also call for the Minister to confirm and publish the renewable heat obligation buyout rate as a matter of urgency. We urge that the notification goes to the Commission for additional multipliers for indigenous biomethane as quickly as possible and that the Government take steps to address the issues associated with non-EU-sourced liquid biofuels from untraceable and unsustainable sources to ensure that this fuel does not displace indigenous biogas or biomethane. We encourage this committee to push for transposition of the, REcovered Nitrogen from manURE, RENURE, proposal recently agreed in the EU nitrates committee. This agreement once implemented and transposed into law will allow for the use of RENURE fertilisers above the limit for the application of manure and processed manure set by the nitrates directive. This agreement will open the possibility for Irish farmers to replace chemical fertilisers with RENURE products. We also call for the publication of the grant funding programme and sector supports for the development of the sector. It is proposed that will be a number of measures in the exempted planning regulations impacting on the sector. We propose that the 1,000 cu. m capacity for slurry storage be increased to 2,500 cu. m and the 200 sq. m threshold be increased to 1,000 sq. m specifically for the storage of silage.
There are many benefits of anaerobic digestion, AD, such as energy security, decarbonisation, alternative farm enterprise and diversification, reduced emissions from agriculture, displacement of chemical fertiliser, enhanced biodiversity and development of the circular and bioeconomy. Decades of research on digestate show that it contains nutrients more available to the plant and less prone to leaching into natural water bodies. Biogas technology is an integral part of the circular bioeconomy, providing an efficient method of recycling food waste. Mr. Gildea will focus on farm-scale biogas - I will not go into the details - we ask the Government to put in place a €3 million to €4 million budget for a proposed capital scheme.
The association strongly encourages community engagement as a valuable asset to assist communities with proposed projects. We are a key stakeholder in that. I thank the committee for its time. We look forward to questions.
Dr. Stephen Nolan:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for inviting Bia Energy to this important discussion on anaerobic digestion. We are grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this vital conversation, especially as Ireland stands at a pivotal moment in its transition to a low-carbon economy. For those less familiar, anaerobic digestion is a natural process where microorganisms break down organic matter which include farm slurries, food processing residues and food waste in the absence of oxygen. This produces biogas, primarily methane, which can be upgraded to biomethane for injection into the gas grid and a nutrient-rich digestate that serves as a sustainable fertiliser.
Among other roles, I am technical lead at Bia Energy. Since completing my PhD in optimisation of anaerobic digestion, I have been involved to varying degrees with eight of the ten or so operational AD plants in Ireland and other plants across Europe, including managing Ireland's first biomethane-to-grid plant for three years. More recently, I have overseen the redevelopment of Ireland's best-in-class AD facility, Bia Energy.
In 2023 the Sretaw group acquired Bia Energy and it has since transformed it into Ireland's largest operational plant, processing up to 100,000 tonnes of organic waste and residues annually, right off the M50 for efficient logistics. Since commissioning in 2024, we have been ramping up with a view to generating 120 GWh of renewable biomethane each year, enough to heat nearly 11,000 homes, directly injected into Gas Networks Ireland's grid. This will decarbonise the national gas network and displace fossil fuels, aligning with Ireland's climate action plan. We are equally proud of our agricultural impact. Our plant yields 90,000 tonnes of digestate annually, a pathogen-free, odour-reduced biofertiliser that can support over 10,000 acres of farmland in counties Dublin and Meath, offering farmers a sustainable alternative to chemical inputs.
Why does anaerobic digestion matter so urgently for Ireland's agriculture and food sectors? First, environmentally, agriculture accounts for about one third of our greenhouse gas emissions, much from methane in manure and waste. AD captures that methane, reducing emissions by up to 90% compared to land-spreading, while producing renewable energy to meet several key Government and EU objectives. Second, economically, it creates jobs. Our Dublin plant supports over 20 direct roles and bolsters rural economies by valorising waste streams. Farmers supplying feedstock to plants like ours can diversify their revenue streams. Third, it enhances energy security. With gas imports vulnerable to global shocks, indigenous biomethane from AD could cover 10% to 15% of our gas needs.
Yet, despite this potential, Ireland's AD sector is nascent. As of mid-2025, we have fewer than ten commercial-scale AD plants operational, producing just a fraction of our potential. To hit the Government's ambitious 5.7 TWh biomethane target by 2030, equivalent to powering 500,000 homes, we need over 100 new facilities, backed by scaled-up anaerobic digestion infrastructure. Challenges persist: feedstock competition from exports to Northern Ireland, where a strong renewable obligation supports the industry; grid connections can take years; lack of a trained workforce; and lack of market certainty.
From Bia Energy's vantage, the path forward is clear and achievable. We are planning two more projects in the near term, but as early movers we are exposed to risk while support frameworks are still being finalised. While the recently announced renewable heat obligation, RHO, is welcome, it needs strong protections for indigenous biomethane and a clear trajectory for ten to 15 years to de-risk financing. We urge the committee to champion a bankable mechanism such as a guaranteed floor price, green gas certificates or contracts for difference to underpin revenues so banks can lend to projects. Incentives like accelerated capital allowances and grants under the new biomethane strategy could unlock €1 billion to €2 billion in private investment, but public cofunding for early projects from ISIF, SBCI or the EIB would de-risk private capital and accelerate investment.
Anaerobic digestion is not just a technology; it is a lifeline for Irish farming, substantially cutting emissions while diversifying revenue. Bia Energy is committed to scaling this for a greener Ireland. We look forward to the committee's questions and collaboration.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Dr. Nolan. Lastly, I invite Mr. Brendan Gildea to speak.
Mr. Brendan Gildea:
I own Riverview Farm biogas. I am an organic dairy farmer from Dunmore, County Galway. I am married to Helen and we have five sons. My wife and two of my sons, James and Brendan, run a 230-cow unit and farm 550 acres. The other three sons, Tommy, Mike and Andy, also help part time on the farm. We have four milking robots for 24 years. My farm is the longest working robot farm in Ireland. We have been 18 years farming organically and have a nitrate figure of 160 without chemical fertiliser. We supply Aurivo with liquid organic milk all year round, producing 1.8 million litres. In 2005 I completed a certificate in renewable energy in the Tipperary Institute. I was very eager at the time to build an AD plant on my farm but due to lack of support from the Government it was not feasible to build.
When IrBEA started the small-scale biogas project in 2019, I applied to be one of the farmers to build a biogas system. This would make my farm become self-sufficient in power and heat and enhance the slurry and nutrients available on the farm. The system would use only slurry, straw bedding and waste silage from the farm. This would help me achieve a very sustainable farm for the future. I was successful in the application process and in 2023 I received planning permission from Galway County Council. We starting building in the spring of 2024. Ben Sage Tank Storage Systems, an Irish company, built the anaerobic digestion plant and my sons and I did most of the ground work. We have a MIC-MEC of 49 kVA onto the grid. The AD tank is 550 cu. m and has a retention time of 35 to 40 days. The CHP is able to produce 25 kW per hour during the summer and 40 kW during the winter. In April 2025 we started the CHP engine, which was witness-tested by the ESB on 24 April. We are still waiting for a smart meter to be installed. We have produced 90 MW of electricity to date and have exported over half of that electricity to the grid without payment. We received a 50% grant from the EIP and the Department of agriculture.
This project has been very successful. We have reduced our electricity bills to nearly zero and enhanced our slurry to help grow better yields of grass and crops, which is very important on an organic farm. I thank IrBEA, especially Seán Finan and Noel Gavigan, for their help.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will open the discussion to the floor. This topic has generated a lot of interest, and it sounds like there is huge potential, but I am conscious as well that there are differing views on how it should proceed, or maybe not, and I know members will have a lot of questions. We will meet further witnesses in the future on this as well. I have five members offering: Senator Daly to be followed by Deputies Kenny, Aird, Collins and Newsome Drennan.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have a few questions written that I will throw at them and they can all give me their opinions on them. I want to hear them, not me, over my six minutes. We should have been here 20 years ago. That is probably the fault of the people this side of the room, not their side of the room, and I would be the first to hold my hand up in that regard. We need to get there, and I am very much pro this. However, we represent communities too, and not everybody in our communities is pro this, so we want to ask a few questions that the public may want to hear the answers to.
As for the first, Mr. Gildea has given the answer. However, can everybody else reiterate to us the benefits of AD when it comes to retaining our nitrates derogation within the agriculture sector? It is a major game-player in that regard. For people in the community, non-agricultural people and maybe people who would be living close to proposed anaerobic digesters, what benefits do the witnesses offer to, or what benefits are there for, the wider community, the agriculture sector aside? Roughly, how many jobs would be created off-farm in the AD sector?
There will always be an issue and questions about odours and noise. Can the witnesses settle that debate, or what do they have to offer with regard to the lack of same for people who spread those rumours, I would nearly call them?
I have seen the process in operation and we need to reiterate here how to minimise odours and noise.
Are there any implications for water quality in the immediate vicinity of the operation? Are there major traffic impacts? On the traffic impacts, I am totally in favour of using by-products, slurry and waste, but I saw one operating in the North using grass. There was a full heavy duty silage outfit guzzling diesel drawing grass 15 miles into an anaerobic digester and I could only agree with the people affected by it that it was a bit of a contradiction. More gas was being burned than produced. Will the witnesses comment on those matters?
I do not know what the Cathaoirleach is doing about the vote.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will continue and we will put someone in the Chair for the voting.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will give the Senator extra time. Who would like to take those questions?
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
I will take the one regarding farms currently in derogation. If they are exporting slurry to an anaerobic digester, it reduces them below the standard level and they can get back bio-based fertiliser, which can displace chemical fertiliser. It is the only alternative vehicle to help dairy farmers in derogation to continue at their current level and be compliant with the regulations. The existing alternatives are to reduce numbers or get additional land.
Mr. Seán Finan:
I will not repeat what Mr. Sweeney has said, but add to it. We encourage the committee to look at the recovered nitrogen from manure, RENURE, proposal and encourage the Government to transpose the legislation associated with it. It is currently in a notification period in the European Council and European Parliament. The nitrates committee in the European Union has approved it so we encourage the committee to look at it and help to ensure Ireland transposes it because it would open up the opportunity Mr. Sweeney mentioned of replacing chemical fertiliser with organic manures, which is important for our sector.
We have listed the benefits to the wider community in our submission, but I will summarise them. They are jobs, decarbonisation and providing a-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Approximately how many jobs are there?
Mr. Seán Finan:
The figure we have is that every 1 MW amounts to about 5.9 jobs. Perhaps Nephin Energy has more up-to-date figures as it is in the field in this area. However, there are hundreds of thousands of jobs, direct and indirect, for the overall development of the sector. There is a huge opportunity for jobs for people providing feedstuffs, operating the facilities and constructing the facilities. From the point of view of jobs, it is a big opportunity.
I could address odour and noise, but I might leave it to the Nephin Energy representatives. Maybe Mr. Lochhead can take that question.
On water quality, there is no discharge, as we understand it, from biomethane plants to the local environment in a way that has implications for the environment. Digestate is a better product for the environment than raw slurry. Through the anaerobic digestion process, the nutrients become more available, which means that when they are spread on grass or a tillage crop, they are immediately taken up. Therefore, the risk of run-off is significantly reduced. From a water quality perspective, there is a benefit associated with digestate. I think that addresses most of the points the Senator raised.
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
I will cover the odour and noise and the road traffic impacts quickly. Nephin Renewable Gas carries out a full environmental impact assessment, EIA, in which these are addressed. In essence, the process excludes air and oxygen. We have sealed facilities - air-controlled buildings - so the odour from the site is minimal. Once the product is processed-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before we continue, I will ask Senator Collins to take the Chair.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We can extend my time now because of that.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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You can have all the time in the world.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will keep the show on the road while the Cathaoirleach is away.
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
When the product is processed, it is de-odourised. There is a tone. We do not get rid of all odour, but the product is de-odourised so when the biofertiliser is put back on land, there is less odour. I will not say there is no odour because people will experience it differently.
As far as noise is concerned, we go through a noise survey within the EIA and we do a rigorous road traffic impact assessment. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, our EIA, the local council and the mechanisms already in place allow us to assess those issues and prove the worth, as it were.
Nephin Energy has also done a best available techniques, BAT, assessment throughout Europe. We came in 2023 - I now live in Waterford - so we are applying all the best available techniques from throughout Europe in Ireland. We are taking the lessons learned from everyone. The committee will have heard in Mr. O'Brien's opening statement that we have 300 years' experience in the team. We are not only capitalising on that. We have reached out to the wider community in anaerobic digestion, AD, to bring experience to Ireland. We are bringing the best of the best to Ireland by learning from all the things people have done. The Senator mentioned 20 years ago. There has been a lot of good and bad in 20 years and we are trying to bring all the good to Ireland.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
In addition, the critical element to reducing impacts on water quality is that it reduces the hydraulic loading of what is being applied to land and in each of our Nephin sites we are incorporating reverse osmosis, which involves removing circa 50% of the water content. That has a huge potential impact on improving water quality.
The other aspect is the uptake of the nutrient in the material and the time of application. There is a lot of experience in how we can substantially reduce water quality impacts through the incorporation of an anaerobic digester in an area.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
On the question of local, and particularly community, benefits, as CEO of the South East Energy Agency, I am very engaged with a lot of the existing sustainable energy communities under the SEAI programme. From my background with the Irish Bioenergy Association as a director and former president, I know we are conscious when we do our assessments. We did an assessment, as Mr. Finan mentioned, in the south-east region.
I will touch on a few key points about local benefits. Some members have had to step out for a vote. Ireland as a country is No. 27 of 27 EU member states for renewable energy percentages. We are last as of November 2024. We have fallen behind Latvia. Looking at all the energy we use, we are good at renewable electricity and I would promote that we continue to drive the renewable electricity agenda. However, in the majority of the EU member states, 40% to 50% of their total energy comes from renewable bio-energy and one of the key elements of that is biomethane. Looking at that and that we missed our 2020 targets by a significant percentage and paid fines for that, we are now full steam ahead towards our 2030 targets. To remind all the people in the committee, through the European Union and Commission, our original target was to have 32.5% of total energy from renewable sources. All our energy includes heat, electricity and transport. In response to the Ukraine war and the REPowerEU agenda, the renewable energy target has risen to 42.5%. Currently, 13.5% of all our energy comes from renewable sources. I wanted to emphasise that.
Let us feed that back into jobs and local enterprise.
We work very closely on a couple of European projects and we are keen to share some of the findings with the members of this committee specifically. We are now looking at industry coming to organisations like the Irish Bioenergy Association to ask how we can sustain locally produced energy so the revenue from that energy stays within the local area.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I might stop you there. We can continue the discussion later. The voting is finished so the Deputies will return shortly. I wish to get to the next speaker. I call Senator Brady.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the initial investment in an AD plant, does the funding come from the company, or is it State-funded and partially farm-funded? Can the witnesses go through how the funding works?
Regarding the benefits for the farmer, Mr. Gildea said there was a connection to the ESB grid but that he is not getting paid at this time because no meter has been fitted. It is woefully inadequate that he is producing something and giving it away for free after all the work that has gone into it. We all know that the ESB only buys the power at a lower cost than it charges at the other end. Can the witnesses give us some figures on the benefits of this?
There is also the issue of community. If there are no gas networks or pipework in a community, it can only be on the ESB network solely. Is there a programme whereby gas networks can approach businesses? I am speaking for local businesses. I come from Drumlish, County Longford. It has a massive pig factory that burns a huge volume of electricity to heat water. Just 1 km up the road is Mulleady’s Recycling, which is one of the biggest recyclers in Longford, Westmeath and the surrounding area. Further up the road again are Kiernan Structural Steel and Pat the Baker. There are huge companies in the area where I live, yet they all depend on their own supply of power, particularly electricity. Could a case study be done where the relevant organisations would come to an area and meet up with businesses to put together a business plan for the community and the area, and incorporate farmers?
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
Therefore, the industries there are reliant entirely on electricity decarbonisation, which can be difficult in some of the sectors mentioned by the Senator, where there is a high heat requirement. Senator Daly mentioned that we should have been here 20 years ago. It is 15 years since I visited plants in Germany, where there was a scheme to ensure every farmer was provided with a free connection to the electricity system to enable them to put in PV, combined heat and power, CHP, and anaerobic digestion. The heat from that was being supplied to the local factory in a direct hot water pipe. As the technology advances and moves into biomethane, people can work their way into a direct gas supply. There is potential there for what we call connected supply, or if there is no network, they can transport it by road.
There are some very good examples. Some members of this committee will be familiar with Kilkenny County Council, where, through the energy agency, we have road transported biomethane from a plant in Portlaw to supply the fire station in Wexford with renewable gas in a cylinder tank for its heat, and there is a similar supply to the machinery yard in Kilkenny County Council. It can happen by road or by network, and if there is no network, there can also be what we call gas purchase agreements or power purchase agreements. If we can manage to get an investment in a gas network into the Senator’s area, it would be important that there would be some stipulation on the percentage of renewable gas required to be part of that network, so the offtake would be there for the generators. This would mean that when they inject the gas into the system, the factories or businesses - the large energy users as we call them - will be able to comply with their requirements. That will put an incentive on the networks to take in more renewable gas than they currently do. If we were to put in a gas line, we would be pushing that it would have a percentage of renewable gas as part of its supply. That would help the businesses to produce the high heat, which they currently only have the option to do with oil or gas, which is what we call fossil gas.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
On the funding question, we are funding these projects 100% ourselves. Ballinrobe, for example, is 100% funded by our business. The Government did announce some grants last year and there are reports of more grants, but they have not really been taken up because of the lack of regulatory clarity around their RHO. I understand there will be an announcement of potential new grants being made available for the industry but, as of yet, Nephin is not availing of any of those grants. It is 100% our own funding.
On the second question, Mr. Phelan was talking about how we make this product available for businesses and industries in rural Ireland. The national biomethane strategy speaks to having an agri-centric industry located in rural Ireland where the feedstocks are available. One of the challenges with that, and with the businesses and industries outside of the M50 belt, is that in many parts of rural Ireland, people are relying on the distribution network - the DS gas network - rather than the transmission network. In many areas of rural Ireland, there are capacity constraints due to the ability of the gas grid to take the gas that might be produced. They have the same issue across Europe, where they have rolled out a technology called reverse compression, which essentially allows the gas to flow uphill from the DX network into the larger transmission network. One of our asks would be for the Government and Gas Networks Ireland to get the CRU to very actively look at the introduction of reverse compression technology.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Excuse me. We might have a second round of questions.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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We might come back to it in the second round of questions. Was there a specific point?
Mr. Brendan Gildea:
Regarding funding at farm level, I accessed the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, scheme through Bank of Ireland, so we did not have to use our deeds as security. That scheme is like a Government guarantee through the SBCI. Without 50% grant aid for my project, it would not have been viable. It needs funding.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I have to go to the Seanad shortly. I have one or two statements and some questions. I live in County Limerick. Earlier this year, quite a big plant was to be built in the townland of Granagh. There were 160 houses around it and each of the 160 objected. It came down to a lot of different issues. One was road infrastructure, which is not great in that area of Limerick as it has very narrow, small roads. Their objections were that there would be a lot of heavy machinery and HGVs going up and down the roads. People also had questions as to whether the EPA would be out, how often, and who would oversee that plant and carry out reviews of the plant. They did not get many answers to these questions. Many people were saying that not much community consultation was undertaken.
Have the witnesses any suggestions? These plants are definitely needed. They are very good for the environment and, not only that, they are very good for farmers in order for them to reduce their emissions, so it has a two-part benefit. Have the witnesses any ideas on how to get around the public perception when these plants are going in?
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
I will start and then hand over to Mr. Sweeney. We are aware of the project Senator Collins is speaking about. Obviously, it involves a different company, so all I can do is speak on behalf of Nephin. We spend a huge amount of time carefully considering where we might do these projects. We have a very detailed site evaluation matrix, where we look at things like traffic and proximity to receptors or residents. We really go down into infinite detail on it. Making sure we have the right location involves myriad factors. To give an example, we recently broke ground on a plant in Ballinrobe in County Mayo. We were very glad of the local support we got there. In fact, there was a headline in The Western People that there was not one complaint. This is down in large part to the Nephin Renewable Gas team, and I will ask Mr. Sweeney to speak about what we do in the local community. It is a very individualised one-on-one approach.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
We are very committed to having direct engagement through a one-to-one and face-to-face approach. I like to engage directly with people in their own castles, their own homes, their own comfort areas, and give them the opportunity to tease through the issues that come to mind on which they want information and have it de-risked in their own minds. Often, it comes from a place of not understanding. We do a deep dive. Traffic impact has been mentioned. Our facility has 12 to 15 HGVs per day from Monday to Friday, with fewer on Saturday and nothing on Sunday. This is governed by planning conditions and EPA licence conditions. For the overall volume, we have the direct diktat of the traffic impact. To date on the seven sites we had evaluated and are progressing through the process, our traffic impact is less than 5.5% of gross traffic volumes in the area. It is quite minuscule.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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It does come down to having it in the right place. At present, is the grant 50%?
Mr. Seán Finan:
To explain, there is no grant at farm scale as such. It was through our EIP project, which was administered by the Department of agriculture, that we could provide a 50% grant to Mr. Gildea on the basis of it being a demonstration project. We have really done the groundwork to prove that the scale we are speaking about with Mr. Gildea actually works.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Is this something that might be looked at in future for individual farmers?
Mr. Seán Finan:
There are two potential models. There is what we are speaking about for Mr. Gildea, which is small scale, and then there are 50,000 tonne and 100,000 tonne plants, such as those discussed by Nephin. A capital grant is required at farm scale and we are saying it should be a minimum 50% capital grant, whereas the support requirements for larger scale industry are completely different and the obligation scheme proposes a capital grant programme there also.
I want to pick up on several of the questions. Senator Collins mentioned EPA oversight of these projects. The biogas and biomethane industry is very heavily regulated. It is governed and regulated by the Department of agriculture under the animal byproducts regulations. Each facility is licensed by the EPA and the licence conditions associated with it are very strict and stringent. There is ongoing engagement between the particular facility and the EPA. There is a lot of misinformation out there on the sector not being regulated. It is very heavily regulated and I want to make this point.
In terms of community consultation, we see large-scale biomethane facilities in residential and built-up urban areas throughout Europe and they do not pose any issue for their local communities. We have seen some plants that have not had any objections and we have seen others that have had a huge number of objections. Sometimes, the reason for objection is a lack of information and knowledge about what the technology is. We are delighted to see the biomethane strategy, and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment is working on a communication strategy associated with the implementation of the biomethane strategy. This will be very important because to deal with these issues we need to get information out there about what this technology is and what it is not.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Information is definitely key to getting any of these over the line. It is about community engagement and knowledge for those who will be living near it. I thank the witnesses and I will not take up any more of their time.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements and for our visit a couple of months ago to a bioenergy plant. One of the things we really need to get to the nub of is the viability of all of this, the cost and the amount of State money that will have to go into keeping it viable. This is one of the things people have questions about. There are all the other issues but I ask the witnesses to answer this first. The plant in Ballinrobe will have enough heat for more than 12,000 homes. If we average €1,000 per home, that is €12 million per year. How viable is this if that is what the gas is being sold for? I am picking this number out of the sky and it may not be the number at all. How much additional subsidy would be needed? Obviously, different than the plant in Dublin that is charging for the waste product coming in, the other plants where we are talking about taking it from agriculture will be paying for the product to come in. This is the scenario and I would like to get into how it works.
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
I will deal with the house question first. We say "houses" because everybody recognises a house but there are industries that need high temperatures, such as the pharmaceutical industry. These are industries that will always be gas users. There is limited availability of other products while we are in transition to hydrogen or whatever else will substitute for fossil fuels in the future. We are in the transition period and biomethane is seen as a transition fuel. The renewable heat obligation, RHO, addresses this and there is no subsidy. The renewable heat obligation addresses the fact that large energy users - the large consumers - will pay a penalty for not using it and, therefore, will be encouraged to buy biomethane. We are waiting for the details of the RHO and we encourage the committee to advise the examination of those details so that we can consolidate the investment profile.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
If I may, when we were looking at whether to set up this business, one of the biggest questions we got from our investors was whether it was viable. Being reliant on Exchequer funding is not the best place for any industry to be in because things happen, situations change and Governments have to make decisions on where funding goes. What we really want to have is a market that is growing and being driven by market demand.
At present in Ireland, and as Mr. Lochhead mentioned, there are many large energy users with a high heat demand that have no renewable alternative energy source other than a molecule such as biomethane. This is where the renewable heat obligation comes in. It puts an obligation on large energy suppliers to procure a certain percentage of their gas as a renewable source. This, hopefully, facilitates a market demand for the product as opposed to having a situation where we are wholly reliant on Exchequer support. Europe seems to be moving away from a subsidy model and this is the approach that Ireland has taken at present, apart from perhaps some nominal grant support at the larger scale. The bedrock of this industry is not going to be Exchequer-funded support. It will be market-driven demand.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
To address the question on viability and cost, and to take it up to a very macro scale, we are at 13.5% renewable energy and we have a target to reach of 42.5% in less than five years. On the back of this, non-delivery will result in a €16 billion cost to the citizen in fines. The stitch-in-time scenario comes into play. It also highlights the auction designs and the present consultation on the Net-Zero Industry Act, which has just come in. There is consultation at a national level. The Irish Bioenergy Association was before a committee looking at pre-legislative scrutiny approximately two years ago.
Looking at the feedstock circularity, the nutrient recycling, the life cycle greenhouse gas benefits and, as we touched on already, the local and regional impacts, we should follow the lead of the French and the Dutch in moving to this European auction policy where can set a floor. We need a floor to be able to finance these projects. If we follow the auctions and the support scheme for electricity, there have been significant periods over the last two to three years where the Exchequer has benefited from these auctions because when the electricity price rose above the strike price, funds were returned to the Exchequer. The PSO went positive and was actually very positive for a period. All of these things are moving all of the time, but fundamentally, from a cost perspective, we are heading for fines. We said this ten years ago before the 2020 fines were imposed and we need to seriously consider how we do that. We have talked about Denmark being the second most abundant in potential energy but in the south east region alone, around Kilkenny, Carlow, Wexford and Waterford, not impacting any existing food production, and this is an important topic in this committee, and as a part-time tillage farmer myself, I understand this very well, but using existing residues from the land, we can achieve 47% of the total energy demand by 2030 in the south east region. The technology is here. The opportunity is here. There is a cost and we have to acknowledge that, but it would be very difficult to stand up in front of the public in 2032 and try to justify paying out €16 billion in missed emissions.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I would agree with Mr. Phelan. He said he is a part-time tillage man and that is a certainty anyway because he could not be full-time at it unless he was Coolmore or the like. I have a number of questions prepared. I am a farmer myself. I will go through them all and then the witnesses can answer. My first question is for the Irish Bioenergy Association. What are the key policy or regulatory barriers currently limiting the roll-out of anaerobic digestion at farm and community level in Ireland? What specific policy changes would most effectively accelerate that deployment? How can Ireland ensure that the feedstock used for biogas production is sustainable, avoiding competition with food production while supporting circular bio-economy principles? I did not realise that they were drawing lots of grass into it in Northern Ireland. I would have a big problem with that. What measures are needed to ensure that the biomethane from anaerobic digestion can be effectively injected into the national gas grid and sold competitively within the energy market?
My next question is for Nephin Energy Limited. What are the main planning and permitting challenges faced by developers in Ireland and how might the processes be streamlined without compromising environmental safeguards? From a developer's perspective, what financial models or incentives, for example, feed-in tariffs, carbon credits or renewable heat supports, are most effective in ensuring project viability? How does Nephin approach community consultation and ensure that there is local acceptance of anaerobic digestion facilities, especially in rural areas where concerns around odour and traffic may arise? I had all of this in my area when Bord na Móna was granted planning permission for a digester. What technological innovations are emerging that could make anaerobic digestion plants more efficient and reduce operational costs? I ask this in the context of smaller-scale farmers like myself. How can anaerobic digestion be better integrated into existing agricultural systems in terms of nutrient development, recycling and so on? What role does the Bioenergy Association see for biomethane in decarbonising not just heat and electricity but also transport and agrifood supply chains?
My next question is for Mr. Gildea. From his experience as a farmer, what are the practical barriers, technical, financial or regulatory, to adopting anaerobic digestion at farm level? How has anaerobic digestion affected his farm's income stability in terms of energy costs and circular resources, for example, slurry management and fertiliser savings? What specific supports, whether advisory, financial or infrastructural, would make anaerobic digestion more accessible and attractive to farm families across Ireland who might be interested in what he has been doing?
Mr. Seán Finan:
I thank Deputy Aird. I can take the questions for the Bioenergy Association. The Deputy asked about regulatory barriers and support policy barriers. We need to see, as we have said, the mobilisation of the renewable heat obligation. That is the obligation on the fossil fuel suppliers to include a percentage of renewable gas in their fuel mix. What that does is set a market. It creates a market which then encourages the production and development of these facilities. It also sets a price for the offtakes. That is one thing that we need. The heads of the Bill have been published. We need to see them move to full legislation and that legislation enacted. That is a very important step.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That will take a couple of years.
Mr. Seán Finan:
We need to see what the capital grant programme that was announced will look like. I mentioned the RENURE initiative which this committee could look at in terms of how that could be transposed in Ireland which would allow farmers to displace chemical fertiliser. We have very strong and robust animal byproducts regulations. They are a mechanism by which the sector can be helped to grow and develop. The other regulatory challenge is that we have issues around digestate use, standards and the EPA's involvement in that. We need to engage with the authority on that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but I have to get answers from Nephin as well.
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
I will start off with the question on competition with food production. Our predominant mix is wastes and residues. That is what is going into the plant. This is a personal view because I am a dairy farmer's son, but I do not particularly like grass for various reasons. We predominantly use wastes in our plants to produce our biomethane. Those wastes come from the agriculture production lines. We are not competing with food production. We are also putting the RENURE back to land under crops. The idea behind RENURE and taking the nutrients back to land, especially tillage land which does not have access to slurry-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to cut across Mr. Lochhead. Will Mr. Gildea tell me why I should set one of these up? Why did it take him so long to do it? What were the pitfalls?
Mr. Brendan Gildea:
At the beginning, in 2005 when I got my certificate in renewable energy, I would have set up an anaerobic digestion plant at that time if there was Government backing, but no matter what way I looked at it, I needed 50% grant aid. When that came along with the Irish Bioenergy Association grant, it stacked up for me. Instead of it being a 14-year payback, it was a six- to seven-year payback. Our feedstock is all waste. We do not put any fresh silage in. There are no trailers going up and down the road. We are not drawing from anyone else. It is an on-farm process using cow slurry, waste silage and straw bedding from under the cattle.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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After the grant, how much did he put in out of his own pocket?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is way above most people's capacity. I am only making the point-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our witnesses for coming in today. I visited the Bia Energy plant in north Dublin and have seen how it works and the idea behind it, albeit on a larger scale. My first question is for Mr. Phelan. He spoke about the cost of these plants but at what point does Europe put its hand in its pocket to support us in reaching our targets? The Irish Government's 50% grant aid is significant.
Realistically, how many plants on the smaller scale do we need? This idea of paying fines and just flushing the money down the toilet does not make any sense. Obviously, even if a loan has to be got, it makes more sense to have infrastructure that will be left to stand the test of time than to flush money down the toilet. At some point, Governments will have to realise we are going to waste money. Do we not want to save it in the long run instead?
I have always said there should be more use of renewable energy. There should be solar panels on the top of Government buildings and every farmer should be given solar panels. Let the Government take the money back off them until their debt is paid off, and then the farmers can receive it. Is there something that could be done on the larger scale aspects? I refer to the money being paid back and whatever company is invested in it.
Turning to Mr. Gildea, I know a specific quantity of materials needed to go into the plant we were at in north Dublin. I cannot remember what the percentage was, but it was a certain percentage. Rubbish from Dublin was being used and whatever else. Certain amounts had to be used. If the mix was not right, the outcome would be different. It might be nutrient-dense or whatever. What kind of technology is used in Mr. Gildea's plant? Is it just a case of putting in the product, getting out whatever it is and spreading it or is it necessary to test the product that comes out to know how much nutrient is in it before it hits the ground? If there was a 50% grant, what kind of uptake might there be among farmers? Would we get to the target and is it realistic? How has Denmark become one of the best boys in the class? What kind of funding is available there? How did Denmark do what it has done and can we learn anything from it?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The bigger scale.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
-----the bigger scale. The Deputy mentioned that. Her initial question was how we pay for it. It is about the stitch-in-time approach, getting the investment done now and the infrastructure in place. As the Deputy correctly said, if we take the existing policy supports for electricity, they are typically 15- or 20-year contracts that give a floor price, or guaranteed price, and this enables financing and building. If there is such a level of certainty, we will get investment. I suppose the same would apply at a farm scale. As part of this process, the output is renewable gas and bionutrients. This is the circular economy aspect. If we analyse how we can pay for these plants, the reality is we cannot achieve our targets on electricity alone. We currently do not even supply 42.5% of our total energy using electricity.
To stitch back in a couple of Deputy Aird’s questions around how we can help the food supply chain, because food is really important, if we want to take an example of big creamery, co-op or food processing companies producing milk, cheese or whatever, they need this gas because they need the high level. Typically, it will go through the gas network because it is on such a scale. The output from those plants would be injected into the gas system and they will operate as larger plants. Typically, on a farm scale, plants will be targeting the farm's own demand or perhaps some localised adjacent demand from near neighbours or whomever else. Farms might come together in a small grouping. That is a totally different investment.
My argument is that we would need a certain percentage of the larger scale ones to supply the gas into the gas grid. Gas Networks Ireland has a target of 20% renewable gas by 2030. The Government policy on biomethane or the biomethane strategy targets 5 TWh. I would say that is low and that it should be higher, but at least it is a start. It has been almost a year and a half since that strategy was launched. The initial capital grant programme had caps and limits. Fundamentally, however, if a floor price is provided for that industrial-scale gas, we will see these plants financed, go through the development process and be delivered. They will go through the proper community engagement processes, as alluded to by our colleagues earlier. Farm-scale production is very much about better using the existing resource. If the gas produced in the end supports the farmer producing the raw material and the industrial gas production supports the processor, the co-op or the creamery, etc., and we get the whole farm-to-food supply chain reduced in terms of emissions, then there is a double benefit. We tackle our energy target and reduce emissions from agriculture.
To me, it is a no-brainer. In terms of the money and resources, studies have been completed - and I will be happy to circulate them after this meeting to the committee, if that is of value - looking at area-based production. I do not want to get into the finances. I am not the financer or the person doing the numbers. From an agricultural perspective, I will reflect on the German example I gave. From 2008 to 2012 in Germany, whether it was photovoltaic, PV, solar panels being put on the roofs of farm sheds or a combined heat and power, CHP, unit adjacent to farm-based production, a free grid connection for electricity was provided by the German Government. At the moment, we cannot get a connection for our colleague here to get repaid for his energy.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Phelan. I call Mr. Gildea.
Mr. Brendan Gildea:
In response to the question on the input system, in my system we have a mixing tank where we pump in our fresh slurry. We put 15 tonnes of fresh slurry in per day, add one tonne of straw bed and then mix it all up. It is added hourly throughout the day. As it comes out, it is a tip-over or floor system. We separate our digestate into liquid and solid. We then have a highly enriched liquid slurry. After the digestion process, the nitrogen availability has probably doubled.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is that why there is a smaller amount in the summer than in the winter?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The animals are obviously in all winter.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy O’Meara.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. As Senator Daly said earlier, we are very late to this technology. I embrace it and the need for it. That being said, I do not take it as read that everything is perfect. It is our job to inquire into certain issues. We are sent here by communities that have concerns, and they deserve to have their questions asked. I have a few questions to get through. Starting with Mr. Gildea, very quickly, are his cows kept in at night to be able to fuel the biodigester?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough. I was just wondering if the building of the digester had changed the way Mr. Gildea was farming and if he was keeping animals in when they did not need to be in. Are any of the representative bodies here today members of the biomethane implementation group?
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The need for community engagement was mentioned in the conclusion of the opening statement of the Irish Bioenergy Association. I really appreciate that and it is extremely important. Does Mr. Finan think some community organisation should be part of the biomethane implementation group? As far as I know, there is no such representation now. It is quite one-sided. If we are going to take that point about engagement with communities seriously, should they also be feeding into this context from their own learned experience of the plants being developed?
Mr. Seán Finan:
I will take this question. Community engagement is extremely important. We have always encouraged it very strongly. Our members have engaged in extensive community engagement with their local communities. The biomethane implementation group is made up of a wide range of stakeholders and its main objective is to look at the actions in the biomethane implementation strategy and ensure their delivery. A key part of this is a communications strategy.
There will be opportunities for people to feed into those different documents and strategies, regardless of whether they are involved in the implementation group. It is not for me to say who should be in that group. We are there on the invitation of the Department as a result of being a key stakeholder as well as our members being key stakeholders.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough. There is a good chance the Department might be in at some stage so I will probably ask that question again at that point.
I think it was Mr. Sweeney who answered the question Senator Collins asked earlier around traffic on roads. My question comes out of that. Do EPA licences or planning permissions dictate the number of vehicles that may be allowed on roads?
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
We undertake a traffic impact plan as part of our planning application. It is a supporting chapter within the EIA report, which is a requirement of the planning application. This clearly sets out the assessment from the surveys that have been undertaken and the predictions of the volumes that will be required on site. We operate a standardised system throughout the 52 weeks of the year. We do not have peaks and troughs because we have constant delivery and that balances out the actual impact.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Sweeney seen the EPA, the planning system at local authority level or An Coimisiún Pleanála reduce the proposed number that the plants coming in beforehand would have liked to have seen?
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
A licence is issued by the EPA based on the submission that is made, which is then assessed and teased out by it. Throughout that process, there may be some queries regarding those impacts. Once a licence is defined and issued by the licensing section of the EPA, it is handed over to the enforcement section of the EPA which supervises, monitors and manages it via on-the-spot or advance notification visitations. There is quite a robust monitoring regime in place.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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That brings me onto a point I was thinking of making about the EPA's powers regarding regulation. I have concern around what the EPA is able to do for these plants. From the witnesses' point of view, I suppose there is a reputational issue here. If they had one plant that is a bad actor and is releasing stuff in a way it should not be - maybe polluting - this would damage the entire industry. Is Nephin worried about the powers of the EPA? As far as I know, it can do a lot of chasing for a long time and eventually impose some sort of a fine, which may be minuscule compared to the turnover of some of these plants. If the EPA were able to go in and temporarily shut down a place until it is able to perform to appropriate standards, would that be better from the point of view of reputational damage?
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
On reputational damage, when we first started or picked up on this, we went out to the wider European community and searched for the best available techniques in what we do. Our facilities are fully bonded and our buildings are fully air controlled. For odour emissions, which is an EPA concern, we are doing everything to adhere to that. For pollution control, all our facilities are completely bonded in the case of a spill which would cause pollution.
The EPA is there to regulate us. We are the guys who have got to adhere to the licence so we are not here to judge if it has gotten it right or wrong. The EPA gives us the rules to play by and we play by those rules and beyond. We go beyond by using our best available techniques.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Personally, I have an issue with the powers of the EPA in relation to holding these entities to account.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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These questions might be for other bodies coming in.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
I would like to add to that response a small bit. It is not just the EPA that has a monitoring control arm here. There are conditions set down under the planning which we have to adhere to. In addition to that, the Department of agriculture APB licence requirements on site are quite stringent. There are multiple facets involving various regulatory agencies, all of which have a controlling arm and a responsibility to monitor on each of the sites.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome everyone here today. It has been very interesting. Many of us are behind the curve in where the witnesses are at. There has been so much talk about anaerobic digesters and the value of them, etc. I have a few questions. Mr. Gildea might answer them. What is the minimum number of cows that a fellow could have on a farm to make it feasible to get involved in this?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Would it cost a fellow much to get going?
Mr. Seán Finan:
I can take that question. We administer the project and the programme for Mr. Gildea. We should not assess it on the basis of the number of cows; it is really down to what farm infrastructure is in place. Mr. Gildea has scraper systems which allow the collection of fresh slurry. It is a question of what type of a farm it is and what volume of slurry you have got. It suits Mr. Gildea's system because he has his cows housed at night and they are out during the day on grass. It also depends on what energy use you have. Mr. Gildea has a large requirement for electricity and heat. There are a number of different factors to look at before you can understand whether it is viable. We had more than 260 farmers apply for the capital grant programme. We brought three projects through to planning permission stage. Unfortunately, we ran out of time to get the others developed. Planning was an issue on one of them. We developed the one on Mr. Gildea's farm and it is a very good showcase. There are many findings from that project. I can send on a report and a slide-pack for the committee afterwards, through the clerk, if it wants further information about that project.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Mr. Gildea said that over half the electricity he is exporting onto the grid is without payment so he is getting nothing for that.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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For the knowledge of everyone, the ESB is trying to impose smart meters on people who do not want them and that is a fact.
I have another question for whoever will answer it. We might say there is no problem as far as planning is concerned for some fellow who is developing one of these things on his farm, as long as it is viable as he seeks to stay going and go forward. However, there is concern about larger ones that are being built independently, maybe more on a commercial basis. That is what the witnesses are at in different places. As with the wind turbines, where you put them is the big issue. We saw a big racket in the audiovisual room a week ago when people from Kilkenny expressed concern about wind turbines adjacent to their homes.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I would say they were furious but go on anyway.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will stick with one speaker. Drive on.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right. I will do my best. Did the witnesses have any trouble trying to get planning or were there local objections?
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
We were delighted with the response from the local community in Ballinrobe, where we have broken ground on a project. We had one or two observations but I think the Western People said it best last week, "Not one complaint." That is not to say every project and location will be the same. There will always be people who will have some concern. Generally, we have noticed a groundswell of support among the rural community and among farmers for these projects. There are always one or two people who will have concerns. As Mr. Sweeney said, that is where we try to engage with people on a one-on-one basis to hear their concerns and give them as much comfort as we can.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is basically down to where they are put-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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-----and how you present it.
I have another question. I am concerned about this matter. Senator Daly mentioned grass. Why would anyone want to put green grass into one of these things? That is what we are about every day. In the small píosa I have, we would give a lot to setting grasses, trying to get the grass to grow. Why would we be trying to get rid of it into a kind-----
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
Grass is just another crop. It is all about how to get the sugars. It goes back to the earlier question about the diet, the recipe and getting the digestion right. What you want to do is get the best digestion in. Grass can help. Grass can be put in. Some fruit can be taken for the cows and some for the AD. It does work, or you can put the waste-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We have an unbelievable growth of rushes down there. Would they be any good to this?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We look forward to hearing more from the witnesses because it is very interesting, especially Mr. Gildea's story. It is just about the feasibility for smaller farmers. That is the concern that I have.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
It is a really good question about feedstock. I will circulate our assessment we did through a European project in the energy agency about the available feedstocks. There are benefits in some scenarios. The Deputy might appreciate that some of his grass might grow that direction because it suits it at that particular time of the year, whatever way the stocking is set up or other which way. Quite interestingly, there are some very clear and defined sustainability guidelines around the feedstock. I am not sure of the technical reason, and maybe Mr. Lochhead might understand it from experience. It would make sense to put energy crops into the energy output, but limitations are set in terms of the percentage of energy crop to be put into an energy project.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It would be totally against our religion to put grass into one of these things. I would say that it is the same for Deputy Aird. I thank the witnesses.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I was sitting up the back listening intently to colleagues. I thank them for their questions. Every day is a school day. My questions are more from a projections and modelling perspective. If the national herd number and-or tillage outputs such as straw production were to reduce, how would that impact the overall productivity from AD?
My second question relates to the regulator for utilities and something that occurred about two weeks ago when we had the last storm. The energy production from wind turbines was capped at 500 MW because we have the arrangement for the purchase through the interconnector. Factoring those variables into AD output, forward planning, viability and meeting our obligations and avoiding fines, has work been done on that? From our perspective in terms of trying to support the model, and, on the whole, it would be very much in keeping with the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act, that type of information would be very helpful for us to push the objective for insourcing of energy production and the model for funding and subsidy of same.
Mr. Seán Finan:
I can take the question on what would happen if there is a reduced national herd and reduced tillage area. The biomethane strategy in itself sets a target. There is a piece, probably here, that if there is a reducing national herd, then it does free up land for alternative uses. That is where the biomethane sector could come in in that grass could potentially be incorporated from farmers who do not necessarily want to have the same number of livestock as they had in the past or else slightly reduce their livestock numbers. We do not advocate for displacement; we advocate that every farmer has his or her own choice what he or she wants to do with his or her own land. At the same time, some farmers whom we talk to are willing to get involved in this sector in terms of providing materials as feedstocks for the industry. The tillage sector has its own difficulties. We would not be advocating for competition to arise between one sector versus another. This is a complementary technology that can help and assist by taking slurries, manures and whatever and produce a better quality output from the point of view of digestate. As an organisation, we do not buy into the concept of competitiveness. It is more complementary as a technology option.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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To clarify, if the source of material to be digested for the production of biomethane is reduced or the input drops, what is-----
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
I will come in on that because it is a very good question. Deputy Aird will probably appreciate the tillage perspective. Tillage might be supported by this sector for the reasons that I am involved in the European Biogas Association, a scientific board. What is very common in Europe is double-cropping. When you put in your cover crop across the winter period, you have an outlet for it because it is biomass and has energy. It fixes nitrogen and improves water quality and all the reasons it is being supported in the tillage programme under ACRES to put in cover crops.
Second, it is really good for crop rotation. The mix of feedstock will suit good rotation. It might bring beet back into the rotation, which we have missed in this country. We all know the challenges with oilseed rape in the rotation and how challenging that can be. While the tillage sector appreciates the proteins or the feed bit that we are doing with the beans and the peas, you can only put it in once every five years. It really helps crop rotation.
The other question was about modelling the energy mix. In my job in the energy agency, we do a bit of this. Deputy Toole mentioned the wind energy being capped. It is a really important point. We are part of an integrated single European electricity market. The objective of that market is to keep the price of energy as low as possible for the citizens of Europe. Every country must be interconnected to all the other countries and the lowest cost electricity will flow. On an island like Ireland, when the price of electricity from other sectors or jurisdictions is lower, the interconnector points in our direction. We therefore get congestion on the grid. The solutions around it are increased energy storage. I still recommend that we promote an increased investment in our electricity system. The final point I want to make is we cannot put all our eggs in one basket and we cannot wholly rely on electricity. This is a storable, secure and can and will be a cheaper energy source of the future. It deals with all three critical items of Government.
Dr. Stephen Nolan:
In terms of supporting tillage, there is a plant in Dublin that some members have visited. I welcome them to come and visit it. The land around north Dublin and Meath has been completely depleted of organic matter because it has been receiving chemical fertiliser for the last 20 or 30 years. We are supplying 90,000 tonnes of rich, organic fertiliser that will go in directly and is being spread on tillage land. That is offsetting chemical fertiliser that lads are having pay €1,000 a tonne for at peak times. We have put five tanks on five large tillage farms around the place. We are supplying nutrients throughout the winter ready to go for the spring. That includes potato. We take in waste primarily. We take in the sludges and waste of the potato processing facilities such as Tayto and convert it into fertiliser. That goes back out onto the ground then. It is a completely circular system that supports tillage and works with tillage.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
In addition to Dr. Nolan's and Mr. Phelan's comments, there is another critical element. Pasteurisation post-digestion has a huge benefit, particularly for the tillage sector with an issue that has started to arise in black grass and black grass control. In parallel with that, all pathogens are dealt with through the pasteurisation process, so a very clean product is being recovered back onto the farms and displacing chemical fertiliser, with huge additional benefits.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for letting me go ahead of him because I have to go. Going back to the figures Mr. Gildea gave us at the start, he said his farm has 160 kg in what sounds like a pretty sizeable outfit. Therefore, he does not need a nitrates derogation. How was he fixed before the anaerobic digestor?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It was the organic move as much as the anaerobic digestor.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What role does an anaerobic digester play in that?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I thought the anaerobic digester had done the-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I did not realise the organic thing had such a role to play in it.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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On that, I see Mr. Gildea's farm is called "Riverview", so I presume there is a river close by. Mr. Gildea said his cattle were housed at night. Have they always been housed during the night? Is that a new change?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the impact on water, there was a question earlier on water, but I think that related to the fluid that was coming out of it. I am asking about the water of the rivers close by. Is there any data to say this is better or worse? Is it obviously better?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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No bother.
Mr. Seán Finan:
May I clarify a few points? The main focus of our project was not to impact on the food producing nature of any of the farms we looked at. It was on how could the farm be further enhanced by better recycling of its nutrients. We would not have allowed the project or the biogas plant itself to change what the existing farm does. It just complements the existing farm operation and what it does. That is a very important point.
The ecological survey was a requirement of planning. It was an appropriate assessment, which means that an assessment was carried out to prove that Mr. Gildea's biogas plant would not have undue impact on the surrounding environment. All the science, statistics and reports that are out there would suggest that the digestate that comes from anaerobic digestion, be it large scale, small scale or whatever scale one talks about, is better for the environment than raw slurry, in that the nutrients are more available as a result of going through the anaerobic digestion process. That is a benefit of anaerobic digestion from the point of view of water bodies and water quality because the nutrient is taken up fast rather than having to go through a cycle when it hits the land, with the risk of run-off in that period. We want to be very clear that the benefits significantly outweigh any negative impact.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, you would imagine that it would be.
Mr. Brendan Gildea:
Fresh slurry is a nitrate. When it goes through a digester, the nitrogen part of the slurry changes to ammonia, so it is ammonium nitrate you are spreading, which is the next best thing to calcium ammonium nitrate, CAN. As an organic farmer, you get a really quick response from that slurry, which is taken up fast by the plant because it does not have to go through a conversion.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the witnesses.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome everyone in. I am familiar with Mr. Gildea's operation. I have been there often enough looking at it. I want to compliment Mr. Finan and Dr. Nolan for the work in liaising to try to get these off the ground. There are two different systems we are on about. Mr. Gildea is producing electricity. The first thing I will do is call out for this, and I will not apologise to anyone, is the ESB for the way it is treating people in the connection of that box or smart meter because it is scandalous producing electricity and getting nothing for it, having applied so long. The ESB has a lot to answer for. I am aware of this and there is no apologising to the ESB by me.
Mr. Gildea’s system is a phenomenal system. I have seen it. The one thing I would ask of Mr. Finan, and he has heard me say it before, is whether it is workable in a community venture for grant aid? I know Mr. Gildea’s system well but we all know how there are some people who have a 100 cows and there are others who have ten cows or 20 cows. Is there a way of working that together? Is that possible?
Bia Energy, the place that was there in north Dublin, which I think it is the same place we were, is a fine operation. The way it is done is one of the most sophisticated in the country. I appreciate that when I asked the manager, whose name I cannot remember at the moment, a straight question about whether he would survive if he had to buy grass from me and bring it in, he said "No". He was straight up about it. You need to get the raw materials. You are getting food waste and chicken, if they are in. Only for that, it is not viable to produce electricity. Whether it is viable for gas is another question.
Mr. Finan might come in on this and the witnesses might take note of each thing I am talking about so they can come in on it. I think everyone needs to understand that an obligation of 10% is coming in for renewable energy for companies. Is that right? Mr. Finan will talk about that. That is my understanding for all companies. You can get 90% out of Europe but then 10% is for renewable. Where will that fit? If you had to buy gas produced out of anaerobic digestion here, it would cost 16 cent per kilowatt and then you are forced into buying it off the grid the other way for 4 cent. It will not work that way unless you do it. Mr. Gildea is creating electricity. The robots are going all the time and his bill is high. It is about €3,000 a month. Is that fair to say? That is over nine years but you have to make these things pay over nine years. I have said it to Mr. Gildea before that there are two engines. We are all used to engines - Deputies Healy-Rae, Aird and myself are all used to rooting at engines all our lives. I would have a second engine there because if one goes wrong, you need to be up and running the whole time.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy would want to be careful the way he is driving. Did anyone see the film of him with the Zetor tractor?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In fairness, Mr. Gildea’s is a phenomenal set up. It is interesting to see how the grass growth, which I also saw, is phenomenal. I was hugely impressed with that place out there. Dr. Nolan spoke about how he is getting on to gas but he spoke about how farmers out the country had done it. The big problem for farmers is that if someone is a tillage farmer, they do not need to be in Bord Bia. If they are a beef, sheep, dairy or suckler farmer, they have to be in Bord Bia and it will not give you-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am not wrong.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will put it this way. I am well familiar and have done a lot of research on this. With Uisce Éireann, if you go to its place, bring the sludge back and put it through anaerobic digestion, it will not give it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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For using all-farm product.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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However, if you are using anything outside of that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It has to be completely farm waste.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have met the guys in Nephin before. I know they are at the site down in Ballinrobe and they are looking at more sites around the country. Other than being involved, I think they are tied up with Corrib gas and all that. Is it viable, realistically, to say to a farmer Nephin will give the farmer €30 a bale, or whatever, for silage? I cannot see the maths working on that. I know chicken is the one thing that you can use and farmers are trying to get rid of it but there is a bigger picture needed on this. Mr. Finan might come in on this. I read the other day that there was a nature and climate fund of €500 million being given. What percentage of that are Mr. Finan's members supposed to get for what I would call a feed-in tariff? In my opinion, if feed-in tariffs are not brought in, it will be a slow burner for many people.
It is fine if you have something going well that will finance it and that will allow you to wait.
The other question I have is about gas. If I have my anaerobic digester and I make gas, do I not have to go somewhere to clean the gas? I know there was a place in Kildare - a fella called Costello had it - where you could clean the gas. Gas could actually have been exported. Am I right in saying there is some feedback from carbon credits that you can get? They were trading at 14 cent and then the arse fell out of it. I heard people shouting about HVO because the price the gas was coming in at was a problem. Will the witnesses explain that? What is the problem?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy make a final point?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Sure we have plenty of time. We are here until 6 o'clock.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I have yet to get in to speak.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Sorry. The final thing is that Mr. Sweeney referred to - and I had an MEP looking at this as well - instances where if you are bringing in slurry, it changes the production because you might have dosed the animal or whatever and that causes more problems. Will the witnesses explain that in a way we can understand?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There were a lot of questions there.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The witnesses can go at them as they want.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Quick-fire answers.
Mr. Seán Finan:
First, I acknowledge Deputy Fitzmaurice's assistance with regard to Mr. Gildea's plant and the planning relating to it. I thank him for that. The first question was about community. A lot of this - and the scales - is down to the requirement as to whether to pasteurise or not. There is no requirement for Mr. Gildea to pasteurise because he is only using his own feedstocks. If you go to a community plant, there will more than likely be feedstocks from a variety of locations and you will need pasteurisation. Then the economics drive you towards what Nephin Renewable Gas is talking about in terms of a larger plant. However, there is no reason why a community could not potentially come together and develop a larger plant, perhaps in a joint venture with a developer or something like that. It has to be assessed on the basis of what the regulatory requirements are, and pasteurisation is a big one. A plant on a smaller scale, like that of Mr. Gildea, would probably not work at a community level on the basis that there would be multiple feedstocks involved.
The second question is linked to the Deputy's final point about the nature fund. What is being proposed throughout the sector is a renewable heat obligation. What that means is that each fossil fuel supplier would have to include a percentage of renewable fuel in the fuelling mix. What is talked about in the heads of Bill the Minister is going to publish is a 3% obligation in year two. That is two years' time. The heads of Bill are currently going through the process of review.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What sort of a fund will that create?
Mr. Seán Finan:
The objective is that you get to a 10%, 15% or 20% obligation over a period, which means that the fossil fuel supplier has to include that percentage. They have to contract with a large-scale biomethane developer to guarantee a supply of a certain quantify of fuel for a certain period. What it generates is an off-take agreement or a contractual arrangement. It is hoped by doing that it will drive the market forward. The representatives from Nephin Renewable Gas will probably comment more on that. That is what the obligation scheme is doing. The issue we have had with the sector to date and with HVO is that in the context of the obligation scheme relating to transport, which is the one the Deputy spoke about, imported liquid fuels from non-EU sources, such as China, Indonesia and Malaysia, have found their way into the system. They are being produced at huge volumes and are cheaper than indigenous fuels, be it liquid fuels or biomethane. As a result of the fact that the Department incentivised that by a multiplier in the context of those non-EU fuels, or the feedstocks associated with them, the number of those fuels in the market increased. That reduced the price of the credits, which caused an issue for the particular plant in Kildare to which the Deputy referred because it was no longer able to compete with these other fuels in terms of biomethane fulfilling the guarantee.
Regarding the climate and nature fund, the proposal is that biomethane and district heating would share the €500 million involved. The latter is the amount that was being talked about. That is not a feed-in tariff; it is a capital grant support programme. We have no sight of what percentage will be for biomethane and what percentage will be for district heating. We would hope that both would get their piece of the pie. However, there are a lot of projects on the biomethane side in the planning process. These are either going through planning or are being prepared for entry into the process. There are many biomethane projects that could avail of the grant support scheme when it is launched, but we await the detail of how it is going to be broken down, what level of grant will be available will be and what the terms and conditions with it will be.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
Viability is key. I touched on this in our response to an earlier question from Deputy Daly. This was in relation to the EU Net-Zero Industry Act that is before us for consultation. The Act refers to auctions and auction prices. I referenced the Dutch and the French options whereby a person goes and procures gas from the market, the same as we do for electricity, and that gives a viability floor price. As I mentioned earlier, there have been significant periods of benefit to the PSO. In other words, capturing money over the past number of years through the PSO system and the electricity support scheme. Industry needs clean gas. There is no question about it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Industry also needs cheap gas.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know everyone wants the ideal world. While you have to use a percentage of that gas, you are not going to use 100% because it would be too costly. Does Mr. Phelan understand what I am saying?
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
I do, and I fully agree with the Deputy's point. However, the point I would make is that as the cost of gas goes up on the basis of our carbon taxes and as we look at the challenges around sustaining industry, we are looking at an abundance of energy coming into this island and an opportunity to grow economically and attract in much more challenging geopolitical countries where we can have a much more stable geopolitical opportunity. If we can have clean gas and clean electricity on tap, then future generations in this country will, from an economic and social perspective, enjoy regional benefits. There is a real regional opportunity with this particular one. I encourage the Government to at least investigate the opportunity to put an auction-based contracting system in place for 15 to 20 years. That will close the gap for industry. It will bring the price of gas to where it needs to be but it will also rapidly increase the percentage of renewable gas in the mix.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Dr. Nolan with to comment?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is just about Bia Energy being able to do it with agricultural stuff. Other than that, it is not allowed.
Dr. Stephen Nolan:
Yes, that was the Deputy's point. In CHP systems at the moment, that is the way it was set up. It is an inefficient in general. It works if you have slurry going in. To make electricity, however, there are wind turbines and different ways of doing it.
In the context of gas, I was asked about decarbonising transport. Renewable gas is really the only fuel that can decarbonise heavy goods vehicles. There is already a compressed natural gas fleet in Ireland. If you supply gas into the network, it can be used to fuel those trucks. The plant in Kildare was supplying gas through the RTFO scheme. Then you need a better price. We expect and anticipate a better price, but every nascent renewables industry always needs some level of support to get it off the ground. All the industry is asking for is assistance to get it off the ground, and then it will eventually make sense.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
I want to pick up on a couple of points. On pasteurisation and community development, once there is a slurry product coming from more than two farms, an ABP licence from the Department of agriculture is needed. That would add to the cost of the model that is being used.
On the crop value, this is based on the gas-generating potential. Where we produce crops, it is based on the bio-based fertiliser we produce. It is on selected ground. It may be part of a rotation on a farm or it might be based on what is suitable to be grown on a farm. The experience has been that where digested matter has been used on farms, there is actually an increased production capacity output. That is on the basis of the improvements that are effected in the context of soil, improved organic matter and the increased availability of nutrients.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is a place in Derry. I have visited a good few places, but there is none yet that is really producing much biodigested dry matter. I know Bia Energy puts out one part of it. There is none in the line of the big anaerobic digesters where there was talk of them being able to heat, go through a system, evaporate the water and put out dry matter. That is not happening because operators reckon they would have to use too much energy. Is that right?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Could Mr. Sweeney comment on the EU regulation?
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
The Deputy referred to my point on the contamination of slurry. What I was actually talking about in that regard was the risk posed by dairy washings on dairy farms. We are very clear that these would have to be kept separate.
Regarding the EU regulation, our specific ask would be in the context of the nitrates regime. Having regard to the renewal that was mentioned, we ask that the relevant legislation be enacted into Irish law, implemented and referenced specifically in the nitrates directives. Crucially, in respect of the nitrate directives, we ask that a specific allowance, similar to that in place for the pig and poultry sectors, be granted to those in the bovine sector – the dairy cow and beef men – in order that they can carry out an analysis of their own slurry. That is a critical element. The entire bovine sector is being-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I wonder if I am about to refer to surprised any of the witnesses, including Mr. Gildea, who has been ahead of the curve in the west. The day a few of us were out with officials from Gas Networks Ireland, there was a very disappointing revelation. In 2018, we were told that a connection point was going to be put in at Athenry by Gas Networks Ireland. The map we saw the other day, which the witnesses know as well as I do, showed connection points in various locations starting in Cork. I mean to disrespect to Cork. The idea was related to getting rid of suckler cows, but I always thought dairy was the biggest thing in Cork. There is a large herd of dairy cows in Cork.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have sheep as well.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know Cork has everything, but I am referring to the biggest area of production. The connections on the map came from Cork right up towards Kildare and Dublin. The area from Louth and Monaghan across to Donegal and down the west coast into Limerick and Kerry was all left out of the connection area. I thought that was disappointing. There is an operator in Ballinrobe and another in Tibohine. There is a plant in Donegal, and I was at one in Newry. Various places are making an effort, and Gas Networks Ireland should have more connection points installed. What is Mr. Finan’s view on that?
Mr. Seán Finan:
There are two types of connection, one of which involves direct connection to the grid. Larger plants will connect directly to the grid. The proposal of Gas Networks Ireland for its centralised injection point involves taking gas from smaller producers that cannot necessarily link directly to the gas grid. My understanding is that as the industry rolls out and develops further, there will be potential to develop more centralised injection points across the country as the need arises. We must make a very clear distinction between direct injection and centralised injection. Centralised injection relates to multiple biogas-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is direct injection that I am on about. There was to be a place that a lorry could come to in Athenry. This was explained to us here in 2017 or 2018. The idea was that the gas could be transferred from the lorry to the grid. A place was to be earmarked, but it has disappeared off the map altogether. All I could see on the day we were with Gas Networks Ireland officials was a series of connections coming right up from Cork. I have no problem with all the areas covered; this is great, but-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the network, do the witnesses envisage plants having their own pipelines? What is the plan of the various operators in that regard?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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In order that each plant would have its own connection.
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
A really valid point is that it comes back to the cost and the viability of running a system. This applies to the electricity system, in respect of which we talked about electricity connection and the associated challenges. If you get a connection to the grid, you hand it over to the operator – the TSO or DSO but in this instance the gas operator – for one euro. It does not sit on your balance sheet and you cannot raise finance against it; you hand it over to the operator of the system. However, you must pay for it. It is developer led. It is broadly proven across the world that this is the most economically inefficient way to develop a system.
To answer the Chair's question, ideally a plant would have injection at its location, but cost is a factor. One or two plants with facilities in operation have been waiting for ten to 12 years for connections. Their costs are not in the hundreds of thousands; they are in the millions.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does that mean Mr. Phelan envisages a fleet of trucks going from plants to injection points somewhere else?
Mr. Seán Finan:
It comes back to the point about direct injection. What Deputy Fitzmaurice was talking about for Athenry was more of a centralised injection point, at which gas would be taken from a number of plants, depending on their size and scale. The larger developers are talking about having direct connections to the gas grid. What Deputy Fitzmaurice is talking about in respect of the likes of Athenry and Mitchelstown is multiple plants feeding into the grid at a particular point to which they would have to bring the gas by road.
Dr. Stephen Nolan:
Regardless of the system used, the time taken to obtain a grid connection is phenomenal as are the costs involved. We have a pipeline of 450 m and a connection point that are costing nearly €2 million. It has taken two years at this stage and we are next door to a power plant that uses gas to generate electricity. It is not like there is not a network in place. I do not know what hope plants farther out the country have.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Gildea has extra capacity. Is it correct that although it can be used, the ESB will not pay him?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thought the ESB was looking for all this. If so, why is it not doing what is required? Who is stopping it?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I understand all that, but in Portlaoise, where I am based, we do not have enough electricity. This is stifling the building of houses and everything else. This is the big problem. ESB Networks was out looking for people like Mr. Gildea who could sell to it.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Still, it will not connect and take Mr. Gildea's gas.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I understand his project is viable without the ESB, but it is saying that a contribution can be made to it and everybody else looking for electricity. Why is it not taking it? I understood it would be down the day before yesterday-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is taking it but not paying for it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is going into the grid but not being paid for.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is going to the grid but not being paid for.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a couple of questions. Many of the questions I had lined up have probably been answered over the past while. There are restrictions on the raw material that goes to plants. What body is charged with regulating and how often does it monitor what goes to existing plants? Is there a minimum standard set? I take the point that there is pasteurisation to deal with bacteria, but who, beyond the companies themselves, is monitoring for the likes of heavy metals and other materials that might be in the residue?
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
The monitoring of the feedstocks, having regard to volume, is governed under the conditions of the planning permission and the EPA licence. With regard to the monitoring and recording of the feedstocks and all products, the products come in over a weighbridge. As a result, there is direct and live recording. The data have to be reported annually to the Department of agriculture’s animal byproducts section as well as the EPA under the EPA licence. The records of monitoring and control have all to be maintained and available for inspection at any time. Therefore, there is very stringent control over all the volumes that come in-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are there on-site inspections of the operating plants and, if so, how often?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will come to it; I have a number of questions. A lot of the points that came up earlier were around involvement with the neighbours. I would be more familiar with the development of wind farms. One of the huge things those involved in wind farms have learned to do in more recent years is to engage with the local community, and they run different events ahead of any planning application being made. To what extent do the witnesses' operations engage with local communities throughout and afterwards? There is a community fund, for example, with the wind farms, but also co-operation and living with your neighbours. What kind of engagement takes place with the locals?
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
It is an important point. I will allow Mr. Sweeney to come back on the engagement piece because he has engaged in that in his various applications within his projects. Again, within the overall achieving of our targets, which we are way behind on in this country, the fundamental piece that is missed in this particular technology is the local benefits in terms of jobs and enterprise. This has to be located in the area of the feedstock, which is typically rural, so at the least the jobs are there. It also leads to more people being retained and sustained within, so it tackles rural depopulation.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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What I am after is, when you are planning your development, do you engage with your neighbours? It is not about employing them or anything. Are you engaging with the neighbours right from the start like we would have seen with the wind farms?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Bear with me now; from the developments we have seen, very often what comes from communities is that this is coming aniar aduaidh on them and it is almost divide and conquer. What kind of engagement takes place in advance of a development with the local community?
Mr. Seán Finan:
I am aware of multiple ways of engaging. From the point of view of our members, they would do door-to-door engagement with the most immediate neighbours. There have been town hall-style events done by some of the developers where they have held meetings across the country. There have been other, say, 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. or 10 p.m. Slots, where they have given an opportunity for everyone who wants to come along and understand what the project is and learn at that engagement session. There has been direct engagement, with letters sent out to various different postcodes or eircodes in proximity to the plant. There has, therefore, been a wide variety of community engagement-style events planned by the developers that I am aware of across the space.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Would that be typical of the industry or is it more unique to Mr Finan's-----
Mr. Seán Finan:
A key part for the success of the industry is that the organisations engage with local communities. There is no doubt that is necessary. All those I am familiar with have had some element or all of those types of engagements with their local community. No matter how much community engagement we do, we have seen where all of that has been done and still the local community will say they were not engaged with. We can only provide these opportunities to local communities, and it is up to the local communities then to engage with the communications and events that are being organised. I have participated in some of these community events as well. There are a lot of very supportive community networks out there for these projects, including farmers and a wide variety of other stakeholders, but there are also lots of concerns. The community engagement aspect is very important to deal with those concerns and explain what the technology is and is not and address all those items as part of a meaningful engagement. To answer the question, there is a wide variety of activities and it depends when and where.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
I want to pick up on it from the point of view of stakeholder engagement from the Nephin perspective. We take a very broad approach to this. In the early days in the identification of a site and at very early assessment stage, we engage with the nearest likely neighbours to a facility to identify and get their feedback on how they feel and the potential risks and impacts as they see it. We have an early version of a newsletter that we provide to them. Once we have done that initial assessment, we take the learnings from that. Do we need to re-evaluate any element? Do we need to reassess some element? Are there ecological elements, etc., that we need to further investigate? That sometimes can take weeks, months or depending on the speciality that is required, even longer. As we progress nearer to the development of a planning application, we broaden out that stakeholder engagement. We engage in further detail with those we have already visited to give further information and more detail on the actual site layout. We take the learnings and maybe mitigants supplied from earlier engagements and identify how those are now applied to the site and what that might look like and what the benefits are on that. I will give the Chair an example. We would probably have somewhere in the order of 100 to 150 direct face-to-face engagements with individuals in any one project. That is a pretty reasonable reflection of what we have done to date.
Mr. Michael Sweeney:
We have been extremely successful in Ballinrobe and other places. Human nature is human nature, however. There is, therefore, a variance in assessments and interpretations. Our duty is to inform as best we can, and our experience has been extremely positive in the main from all engagements.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is one thing that needs to be noted, and in Mr. Gildea's case, he did an EIA, screening out and everything, is that everything is contained within the site, be it Mr. Gildea's or any place there are anaerobic digesters. Water cannot run around the place because it is all contained. It is in tanks, and you have Bauer tanks to basically slap the pipes in against each other. Mr. Gildea would have low-emission slurry spreading and all that crack in what he is at.
I was reading the EPA report this morning. Lough Corrib actually has high value, good quality water. As Mr. Gildea has highlighted, that is coming from Slieve and heading from, say, the Sinking River along towards them. Then, when we get into Dunmore for another organisation that is known the State, the water gets a bit damaged because it has probably not had enough upgrades done. Right along there, however, the water quality is good. When it is being spread, they would be using the trailing shoe or the low-emission slurry spreading in proper weather. I have seen Mr. Gildea's set-up. He is a person who went ahead of things. For anyone who wants to even learn about it, and Mr. Finan has done it a few times, in fairness, they had two open days to show people, because the myth out there is that if you are going to have an anaerobic digester close to you or whatever, there is going to be a smell and there will be this, that and the other. There is an awful worse smell from a lot of stuff rather than if it is put in and done properly, which is the thing. There is a lot of regulation. You have to do it properly, and rightly so. There were some parts of the country that there were questions about, and they need to be answered. No one needs to hide from that, but where it is done properly, you could go in wearing your Sunday shoes, to be quite frank about it, in any of the places I have seen.
I visited a silage facility in Newry a few years ago. The problem for that is there was a big dream coming for a lot of people that they would be selling bales here, there and everywhere. In my opinion, that is not the way it works because you have to have a quality of grass and you have to have it growing a certain length. You cannot have big, rough stuff because that is no good. You need stuff with firepower in it. You need to have a big area that the one guy would be looking after for a long time or that he would cut it three or four times per year, but it would have to be at its right level if you were doing it, and that costs money and all that.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
I will make a last comment on stakeholder engagement. I kind of alluded to it in my opening statement. This industry is unique among the other renewable energy industries.
We have to bring the local community with us because we are relying on that local community to provide the feedstock for our projects. It is different from a wind farm that relies on mother nature for the wind to blow. We have to integrate and be part of the community. We interact with the rural community every day of the week of that operation. If we do not bring the local community with us, we do not have a project.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is Nephin Energy going to take in slurry?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Chicken litter and whatever. Is slurry being taken in from farmers?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How does that go? Does it send out a lorry? What do the farmers get back?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is that done for free?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I know that.
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
It stabilises their base cost. The variable cost is far lighter. If we can substitute that with nutrients from anaerobic digestion, there is going to be a base price. It is not going to be variable price subject to fossil fluctuation. That is a huge benefit to those guys. The things that they have no control over are their fertiliser and diesel costs. If they at least can fix their fertiliser cost, they are starting to have serious benefits on securing their crop costs. They will hope that the fossil diesel price will not go so mad and just keep up with inflation.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am very into the pelleting, and I know the energy used is a problem. Can the witnesses see a day when that will happen?
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
We put a nutrient recovery system in our technology. I am going to use big random figures. If I put in 100,000 tonnes and 20,000 tonnes get converted into gas, I can grab that. I am left with 80,000 tonnes. Of that 80,000 tonnes, we will separate it and 10,000 will come out as a solid. That is a soil enhancer. That is carbon - a nutrient that can go back into the soil to enhance the soil. Do not get me going on worm count. It enhances worm count. It helps porosity, fertility and all the other good benefits that we get with that. Of the 70,000 that is left, we reduce that by putting it through a nutrient recovery system - a membrane system - and reverse osmosis that gives me a high nutrient fertiliser. It is still a sludge, but it is reduced to about 30,000 tonnes of those 70,000 tonnes. Just like one would evaporate milk or whey into whey powder, there is a step-up of energy that we probably will not do because it is just not economic. However, we have a good high quality biofertiliser that can be put into land, but we have dramatically reduced hydraulic load in that process.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
As it is a new industry, relatively speaking, for Ireland, our job as an industry is to try to communicate to local communities the benefits of our industry. One of the unique features of our industry compared with other renewable energies is that the local economy does genuinely benefit, such as farmers entering into long-term reliable new income stream feedstock supply agreements and things like that. For some other renewable energies, the only person in the local community who benefits, apart from perhaps the local community fund, is the farmer or the landowner who is leasing the site for the wind turbines. Our projects are much different. Many farmers in that 5, 10 or 15 km radius are all going to have to feed into this project to make it work. In return, they get income streams and biofertilisers that Mr. Lochhead spoke about. It is an integrated model. That is one of the big differences. Our job as an industry, with the Government's help as one of the action items in the national biomethane strategy in terms of a communications plan, is to articulate that for the communities and explain to them that there are benefits here for them if we can work together.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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On the point about going from different places to the grid, what is the maximum it can go? I am talking about viability.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What is the maximum?
Mr. Paddy Phelan:
An important piece to add is that on top of the benefits that Mr. O'Brien alluded to there, we have to remember that by producing those molecules of energy in the local community we are displacing imported energy. Over 80% of our energy is imported into this country. We produce it locally. The revenue from that energy stays in the locality. It sees a benefit in local shops, hotels, pubs, clubs and everything. That energy displacement, on top of the operation and maintenance requirements in terms of jobs for 15, 20 or 25 years to operate and run these, requires people. People often forget that displacement value. That money is exported in an oil lorry or through a gas pipe to Russia or the Middle East.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise; I had to go to speak in the Chamber. This may have already been covered. The requirement that the witnesses are talking about is that the industry would have to take a certain percentage of renewable gas into the mix. That would be a requirement they would have. That renewable gas is going to be more expensive than conventional gas. That brings us to the question of who pays. Is that going to push the price up for the consumer who uses that gas? The witnesses mentioned earlier that they are talking about certain industries that need it particularly and that they will be targeting them. Most of those industries are providing a service on to some consumer somewhere and it is going to put up the price for them. How much will all this cost? Who will end up paying for it at the end of the day?
Mr. Graeme Lochhead:
It is quite complex because of all those companies are also on a decarbonisation campaign. If they are to keep the decarbonisation and the carbon zero targets that they are setting themselves, they need to buy decarbonised products. This is the first step on a long journey of the renewable element, but it is really the decarbonisation of the businesses. They have to do that. They have to be on this journey in Europe. Being on that journey means that they have to look to sources which have a carbon negative result. We reduce carbon because we are taking product and decarbonising it by producing biomethane.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
To answer the Deputy's question, a lot of these large energy users have gone to Government in recent years and said that unless there is a green molecule available in this country, they will have to move their manufacturing processes elsewhere. They do not even need a European law or anything else. As Mr. Lochhead alluded to, they have their own ESG targets and frameworks. This is about a licence to operate for a lot of these businesses. They need to have access to this molecule. The primary target audience of the molecule are those large energy users with a high heat demand, not necessarily the individual residential consumer.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are data centres part of that?
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
Potentially, yes. The large energy user policy that the CRU published earlier this year referenced these large energy users not being able to get planning permission unless they can perhaps colocate or source their own renewable sources of energy. Those renewable sources should ideally be additive and Irish in the context of them getting the licence to operate. There is this licence to get the planning permission and all the other permits they need to operate. A lot of them need to have access to the types of products that we are hoping to produce over the next few years.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I apologise; I was tied up with other meetings. What I have heard here has been very interesting. I thank the witnesses for taking time out to come in. I know a lot of questions have been asked. Unfortunately, if you are not here when questions are asked, you do not know what has already been asked. Are there many of these plants in the country at the moment?
Mr. Seán Finan:
There is an animal byproducts register. I looked it up in preparation for our opening statement. There are currently 15 plants with an animal byproducts regulation licence in the country. There is a wide variety of other facilities using anaerobic digestion technology, but they might be in wastewater treatment and other areas.
It is either 14 or 15 biogas plants that need an animal byproducts regulation licence. That would be the official record or list of plants.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I presume this is going to be the way forward. Are we are going to see more of these plants around the country going forward?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It has been mentioned that slurry from farmers can be taken into these plants.
Mr. Seán Finan:
Yes. Slurry is one of the feedstocks. Farmyard manure is another one, such as all types of litters from chickens and pig manure. A wide variety of feedstocks can be used but slurries would be the main feedstock, together with other added feedstock such as, potentially, grass silage and other cropping.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I presume there would be issues, such as those raised in the Chair's earlier question, about going close to urban areas or where a number of houses have been built. Would there be issues as regards putting a plant close to people?
Mr. Seán Finan:
We have seen plants being built in urban areas across Europe, such as in the middle of densely urban areas. No issues have arisen for the local communities in those particular areas. They can be located in urban and rural areas but probably, by and large, in rural areas as a result of the feedstocks being rurally based. They can be located in either urban or rural areas, however. It is a controlled system, a regulated industry and is strictly governed. As a result, there will be developments in both urban and rural areas but more likely in rural areas.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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A huge amount of ground has been covered. If the witnesses feel that there is additional information they want to forward to the committee or if there are any unanswered questions, please submit them. I need to finish the meeting. The next meeting of the committee will be a private meeting on Tuesday, 21 October at 3 p.m. The next public meeting will be on Wednesday, 22 October, where we will resume discussion on anaerobic digestion.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will give the members directions.