Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 8 October 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport
Road Safety: Discussion
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Mr. Keith Walsh, assistant secretary, and Mr. Tomás Campbell, principal officer, from the Department of Transport; Mr. Sam Waide, CEO, Mr. Brendan Walsh, chief operations officer, Mr. Michael Rowland, director of research, standards and assurance, Ms Nessa Kelly, director of strategy, performance and transformation, and Ms Annette Ferguson, communications, from the Road Safety Authority; Ms Catharina Gunne, assistant commissioner for roads policing and community engagement, and Dr. Shawna Coxon, deputy commissioner for policing operations, from An Garda Síochána; and last, but by no means least, Ms Susan Gray, chairperson, from PARC. To the Public Gallery, I welcome Ms Debbie Mullan, chairperson of Road Victim Support Northern Ireland - Donegal.
Before we begin, I will read some notes on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit any member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
I will now call on the witnesses to make their opening statements. From the Department of Transport, I call Dr. Keith Walsh.
Dr. Keith Walsh:
I thank the committee for inviting the Department of Transport to talk about the important issue of road safety. I have responsibility at assistant secretary general level in the Department for road transport services and for the Department’s national vehicle and driver file, NVDF, database of licensed drivers and registered vehicles. I am accompanied by Tomás Campbell, the head of the Department’s road safety division.
The national framework for road safety is the Government’s Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030. The strategy aims to reduce deaths and serious injuries by half this decade and put us on the path towards Vision Zero, which is to say, as close as possible to no deaths or serious injuries by 2050. The strategy is being implemented in three phases, allowing for iteration and reprioritisation across the decade based on emerging road safety trends. Phase 1 ran from 2021 to 2024 and saw 169 actions implemented.
The phase 2 action plan was published in July and runs until the end of 2027. This plan identifies 12 primary actions that we believe to be transformative in nature. This is aligned with the safe systems approach, a methodology adopted by the European Commission and many member states. Key actions include the reduction of speed limits, the scaled-up usage of safety cameras, enhanced and alternative judicial sanctions, including graduated penalties, the potential introduction of alcohol interlocks and speed awareness courses, and an increased focus on road safety education, for example, building on excellent work done by the RSA in its transition year programme.
The phase 2 action plan is co-ordinated by the Department and led by the road safety leadership group, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Canney. A road user safety forum was established to give a range of road user and road safety advocates an opportunity to contribute to the phase 2 plan. That forum will continue as a consultative body into phase 2 by looking at implementation and emerging issues.
I know my colleagues from the RSA will provide the committee with information on the current trends in deaths and serious injuries, so I will not go into detail. However, it is important to place our current position in context. Coming out of Covid, 2022 and 2023 saw shocking increases in the number of deaths on our roads. This trend continued into the first quarter of 2024. In the period since then, there have been renewed and sustained efforts by all of the key partners in road safety, led by those who are with us around the committee table today. The number of deaths has stopped increasing and has at least stabilised. This is not to be complacent. One death is one too many, and we are all rightly focused on achieving Vision Zero. However, we have to recognise that we have a growing population and a growing workforce, which means more people on our roads. The evidence from Ireland and elsewhere is clear that had we not acted, as road safety leaders, we would be facing a higher number of deaths. This is why we need to continue to act.
The Department of Transport has a dual role in road safety. As well as the co-ordination of the Government’s road safety strategy that I have outlined, the Department also has a number of areas where we have direct actions to take. The Road Traffic Act 2024 was concise and targeted legislation. It was introduced to address some of the most dangerous driving behaviours at a time when road safety trends were significantly deteriorating. Under the Act, mandatory drug testing is now carried out at the scene of serious collisions on the same basis as alcohol. This has been supported by the provision of tens of thousands of rapid drug testing kits to An Garda Síochána by the Department’s Medical Bureau of Road Safety. Moreover, under the 2024 Act, in February 2025, the default speed limit on local rural roads was reduced from 80 km/h to 60 km/h in line with the findings of the speed limit review. The next phase will be to reduce speed limits in urban areas to 30 km/h, where appropriate. This will be done by local authorities via special speed limits, and it will be supported by new guidelines to be issued by the Department of Transport.
The national vehicle and driver file Bill 2025 had its general scheme approved by the Government in April and is on the priority drafting list for the current legislative term. I thank the committee for its assistance in waiving pre-legislative scrutiny to aid the rapid progress of the Bill. This Bill will ensure that local authorities have direct access to collision data to inform their road safety investment decisions. The Bill will also abolish the requirement for drivers to display a paper motor tax disc on their windscreens. The Bill modernises the legal basis for the exchange of data between the Department and An Garda Síochána. Recent months have seen the Department and An Garda Síochána work closely together to move towards real-time access to the NVDF for front-line Garda members. The Department and An Garda Síochána also worked together, with insurance industry partners, to establish the Irish motor insurance database, known as IMID, which has been very successfully deployed, as can be seen through the marked increase in vehicle seizures by gardaí. The Department commenced, from 1 April 2025, the requirement for insurers to gather driver numbers from policyholders and verify these against disqualifications on the NVDF database before providing an insurance policy. Work is also under way on the next road traffic Bill, which will be focused on the programme for Government commitment to the introduction of graduated speeding penalties.
As the committee will be aware, road traffic legislation is complex. The most recent consolidated legislative basis is the Road Traffic Act 1961, and the subsequent decades have seen dozens of pieces of new legislation passed. Although urgent issues are addressed where they arise, errors and gaps are sometimes identified in the legislation, and these can be contested in the courts. A joint project is now under way between the Law Reform Commission and the Department to consolidate the Road Traffic Acts.
Other actions in the road safety strategy being led by the Department include the development of a strategy for the testing and deployment of connected and autonomous vehicles, and the preparation of regulations to limit the use of multiple learner permits by individuals to drive on our roads without passing a driving test. For this latter item, the regulations are nearly finalised. We are working with the RSA to agree an implementation plan to present to the Minister with the regulations for signing.
I thank the Chair for convening this session. I have outlined a number of actions that the Department is undertaking to improve road safety. I am happy to discuss these and any other matters of interest to the committee. I look forward to our engagement in this session.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you. I invite Mr. Waide to make his opening statement on behalf of the Road Safety Authority.
Mr. Sam Waide:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today. We are deeply saddened to acknowledge the tragic loss of life on Ireland’s roads in 2025. I extend my heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families across the country and I also sympathise with those with serious injuries. In particular, I am conscious of the incident today involving an infant boy. It is fitting that, during road safety week, we reflect on Ireland’s recent road safety trends and developments, and the vital initiatives that we and other agencies must continue to implement to protect all who use our roads.
As of 7 October, a total of 128 people have been killed and over 1,000 seriously injured on our roads in 2025. This is five fewer deaths than in the same time period in 2024. However, every death is a heartbreak for a family, and one too many. Fifty-two of those fatalities were drivers and ten were passengers. Half of those who died on our roads this year were vulnerable road users, including 25 motorcyclists, 24 pedestrians,13 cyclists and two e-scooter users. Three quarters of all road deaths this year were male. One in four was aged 25 years or under, while one in three was aged 46 to 65 years. Counties Cork, Dublin, Galway, Donegal, Mayo and Kerry have seen the highest number of fatalities this year to date.
I would now like to discuss some of the key road safety initiatives the RSA has progressed as part of our strategic approach. As part of major campaigns to support the change in speed limits on local rural roads from 80 km/h to 60 km/h in March 2025, we aired a new television-led awareness campaign that highlighted the change and the consequences of incremental speeding on rural roads. Our new anti-drug-driving campaign aired this year across TV and other media. It is designed to raise awareness of the consequences of a drug-driving conviction. We released a new anti-drink-driving campaign designed to call out the social acceptability of drink-driving and encourage the public to act if they see a friend about to get behind the wheel after drinking alcohol.
Last month, the RSA launched its largest ever college road safety education programme, which commenced at UCD Freshers Week. Over seven weeks, the RSA team will visit 23 third level institutions. Our new programme for transition year students and teachers, Road Safety Matters, has been successfully rolled out nationwide. To date, we have provided professional training for 448 teachers across the country. We are currently piloting new junior cycle materials and resources. We had a strong presence at a range of festivals and social events this year, including the Electric Picnic and the Galway Races, with our FlineBox interactive breathalysers. Approximately 20,000 people self-breathalysed, helping them to make an informed decision as to whether they were safe to drive, or how long they should wait before doing so.
In relation to the driver testing service, I can report that, since September, this is now meeting its agreed service level with a ten-week national average estimate time to invite for new car test applicants. Over 160,000 tests were delivered between January and August 2025. This achievement was made possible through an intensive RSA recruitment and training work programme, coupled with the dedication and commitment of RSA staff extending the service to operate earlier and later on weekdays and on Saturdays and bank holidays. With regard to the NCT, beyond the current 50 test centres, four additional locations are planned for Clare, north Dublin, Cavan and Cork. The average booking lead time is currently below the service level agreement of 12 days.
In relation to the Government road safety strategy, responsibility for overall strategy development and co-ordination has now formally transferred to the Department of Transport, aligning with the completion of phase 1 actions in December 2024. The RSA played a central role in advancing a number of high-impact actions under phase 1, with a particular focus on speed reduction, camera-based enforcement and continued investment in research to inform communications, campaigns and educational programmes to tackle dangerous road user behaviours.
The RSA also worked closely with the Department in a collaborative role to shape and finalise the phase 2 action plan which runs from 2025 to 2027 and which was launched in July. The will lead on two primary actions in phase 2, supporting other lead agencies in nine other primary actions. We remain committed and integral to successful delivery of phase 2.
I will update the committee on the progress made in 2024 and 2025 in resolving the challenges relating to the sharing of road traffic collision data with local authorities. In July 2024, the Minister for Transport issued a formal direction, under section 8 of the Road Safety Authority Act 2006, for the RSA to collect, compile and process collision data received from An Garda Síochána and disseminate this to the National Transport Authority and local authorities. The RSA has commenced data sharing with the NTA and the NTA has the legal basis in place to receive this data. Local authorities do not have the statutory basis in place to lawfully receive and use the collision data. The Department of Transport is progressing the legislation to facilitate this. While awaiting this legislative change, the RSA has put in place ongoing measures to ensure collision data continues to be shared with local authorities for road safety works. We are fully committed to working with the Department of Transport and local authorities to ensure collision data is harnessed effectively to support evidence-based improvements to roads.
We are deeply concerned about the numbers of people who have died and been seriously injured on our roads this year. With sustained political commitment, a whole-of-government response and adequate resourcing and funding, we believe the phase 2 plan provides a clear path to accelerating progress in reducing road deaths and serious injuries and supports the achievement of Vision Zero by 2050.
I take this opportunity to thank my dedicated RSA staff. My colleagues and I are happy to take questions.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Waide. I now invite the deputy Garda commissioner to make her opening statement on behalf of An Garda Síochána.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I thank the Chairman and committee for the invitation to attend to discuss the very important issue of road safety. I am joined by Assistant Commissioner Catharina Gunne, who has recently taken on responsibility for the roads policing and community engagement function within An Garda Síochána.
I begin by taking a moment to acknowledge the victims and family members bereaved as a result of a road traffic collisions and indeed all those who have been seriously injured in such collisions. Much of our discussion today may focus on facts and figures, but I want to ensure we do not lose sight of the fact that behind each of the statistics outlined here, we recognise that there is a person whose life has been taken away or forever changed due to an incident on our roads.
As of 8 October 2025, the number of individuals who have died on our roads stands at 131, which is a reduction of 2% on the same period last year, while the number of serious injury collisions stands at 1,009, which is a reduction of 6% on last year. The 135 lives lost and over 1,000 serious injury collisions have left so many families and communities suffering, the consequences of which have lifelong effects.
An Garda Síochána takes its responsibilities seriously in this area. This is why, when we received an anonymous report of potential systemic failures, we undertook an independent review, in the form of the Crowe report, which was recently published. I echo the sentiments of the Garda Commissioner Justin Kelly and the entire Garda Síochána leadership team that some of the findings of the Crowe report are shocking and deeply concerning.
The report noted that the majority of roads policing unit personnel are dedicated, professional and productive. There was no evidence of a systemic, organised culture of work avoidance or deliberate poor performance within roads policing. Indeed, many roads policing personnel take pride in the importance of their work as they have seen first-hand the trauma of road traffic collisions on many families. However, it did identify a small number of gardaí whose poor work ethic and productivity are extremely concerning. This is not acceptable.
Based on the findings of and recommendations in the Crowe report, I, as deputy commissioner for policing operations, established a project board to oversee the necessary changes required and a roads policing transformation project team led by Assistant Commissioner Catharina Gunne to address the findings and recommendations of the Crowe report. We have accepted all of the recommendations and are implementing them at the highest level of An Garda Síochána.
While the work being undertaken by the project board and project team began recently, progress has already been made, with a number of working groups established to focus on key areas, including performance management and the distribution of our vehicle fleet. Other more challenging recommendations, such as the overall structure of roads policing, have also begun.
Road safety is not just for roads policing personnel. It is a core policing function carried out by all front-line members. This includes engaging in proactive enforcement activity, high-visibility roads policing, education and training, community engagement and communications activities. Every member of An Garda Síochána is involved in road safety-related activities. Looking at last year, for example, 75% of our checkpoints and 60% of our enforcement were carried out by front-line members who were not attached to roads policing units. An Garda Síochána continues to operate the 30 minutes of roads policing activity initiative introduced by former Commissioner Drew Harris. We continue to work in partnership with the Road Safety Authority and with other statutory bodies and interagency partners to strengthen our collaboration to achieve Vision Zero under the Government's Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030.
In the education space, An Garda Síochána delivers the lifesaver project and Garda schools programme, while we also work collaboratively with universities to deliver road safety reimagined. The motorcycle safety initiative is provided through Operation Bike Safe, while Operation Nexus provides outreach to car enthusiasts. Days of operation are also held periodically throughout the year, with a number of these taking place this month, including our October bank holiday road safety campaign. This week, we are involved in activities for Irish road safety week.
In the area of proactive enforcement, a new addition to our fleet in the form of an unmarked HGV, has provided us with greater capabilities in assessing the driving behaviours of truck drivers and other motorists through Operation Iompar. Furthermore, the first phase of a national safety camera network has been implemented, with nine static and three average speed cameras now fully operational at a cost of €3.8 million. Meanwhile, additional Go Safe hours were contracted from May 2024 to October 2025 at a cost of €5.1 million. Under this plan, a full analytical review has been completed of all 100,000 km of public roads in the country. These have been analysed from a suitability perspective for both static and average speed cameras.
In terms of personnel, roads policing competitions took place in three regions during 2024. A roads policing panel already existed in 2024 for the Dublin metropolitan region and a new roads policing competition for the DMR commenced last month. Between 2024 and now, 68 gardaí were allocated to roads policing. As Garda recruitment continues and accelerates, with our new recruitment campaign about to close tomorrow, additional Garda members will be available and will be deployed to priority areas. All front-line members of An Garda Síochána, including those outside of full-time roads policing units, have a role to play in the enforcement of road traffic offences and do so on a daily basis.
I acknowledge the good work our gardaí do in the area of road safety. Members of An Garda Síochána understand first-hand the trauma felt by families who have lost a loved one in a road traffic collision. They are often the first emergency responders who arrive at the scene of collisions and have often had to deliver the devastating news about the loss of a loved one to families. As difficult as this is, our members are fully aware that this is in no way compares to the lifelong suffering a family endures as a result.
I acknowledge Garda Kevin Flatley, who died on 11 May 2025 while operating a speed checkpoint in Dublin. He dedicated his life to making our roads safer. It was something he was passionate about because he had seen the devastation collisions cause. Today, my thoughts are also with his family and his roads policing colleagues, who continue with their important work.
Unfortunately, our enforcement efforts are needed because we continue to see dangerous behaviours on the road. Every individual who has control of a vehicle has a responsibility to themselves and to others. It is important that each of us be mindful of our responsibilities. As of 1 October of this year, 3,594 people have been arrested for drink driving, representing an increase of 4% on the same period last year, while drug driving has seen an increase of 5%, with 2,179 arrests made. We have also seen rises in detections for mobile phone use while driving as well as for not wearing seatbelts, which is a concern. Speeding also remains a significant factor in road traffic collisions.
I take this opportunity to advise anyone getting behind the wheel of any vehicle today to consider very carefully how your actions could impact others. In particular, I implore drivers to slow down and take their time. They should not drive when distracted and put their mobile phones away. A text or phone call can wait. Drivers should wear a seatbelt and ensure all those who travel with them are kept safe by ensuring they are also wearing a seatbelt. People should not use drugs and drive, nor should they be passengers in cars if the drivers have consumed alcohol or drugs or engage in dangerous behaviours. Driving is a responsibility and we need to look out for each other.
An Garda Síochána remains committed to keeping people safe on our roads. I thank the committee. I am happy to answer any questions.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the deputy commissioner. It was remiss of me not to acknowledge other representatives from PARC in the Public Gallery. I ask Ms Gray to make her opening statement.
Ms Susan Gray:
I thank the committee and its Chair, Deputy Michael Murphy, for the kind invitation to speak today on all aspects of road safety on behalf of PARC road safety group. With me today are Noel Clancy and Fiona Clancy from PARC. Noel lost his wife and daughter in a crash involving an unaccompanied learner. Fiona lost her mother and sister. Cathy Reid is also with us today. She lost her only son in a crash involving a three-times-disqualified driver.
I offer condolences to the families of the 131 people who have lost their lives on the roads to date this year. Our research shows that 42 of them were under the age of 30. This September there were 17 road deaths, by comparison with 13 last September. Wicklow and Longford are the only two counties that have had no deaths so far. Our hearts go out to the families. We know how they are suffering because we have all lost loved ones. It is a long, hard road to travel and the pain never goes away.
Let me start by explaining briefly why I set up the civil society group in 2006. On St. Stephen's night 2004, my lovely husband Steve, while working in our hometown of Gleneely in Inishowen, Donegal, was knocked down and killed by an unaccompanied learner driver. The driver was not breathalysed at the scene, which I find totally unacceptable. This 21-year-old learner driver suffered no injuries and was given a lift home. My husband died at the scene from horrific injuries. His body ended up in a field behind his hackney van. In 2004, it was left to the discretion of gardaí whether to test drivers involved in fatal road traffic collisions. I found this to be totally unacceptable. In Northern Ireland, it was mandatory.
I founded PARC a year after Steve’s death to advocate for improved road safety and provide support and information to bereaved families of road traffic victims. We receive no funding from any State agencies or bodies. PARC's first campaign for mandatory testing of all drivers involved in fatal crashes took five years. We worked with various Ministers, with many amendments to the Road Traffic Bill 2010 tabled by former Deputy Tommy Broughan to achieve our goal. Former Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, who was transport Minister at the time, introduced mandatory testing at crash scenes through the road Traffic Act 2011, and the law was strengthened in 2014. We will always be grateful to Mr. Varadkar for addressing these issues and to former TD Tommy Broughan for his tireless work on road safety and his support of PARC and its work.
We have been involved in many other key campaigns to update road traffic legislation and secure policy changes in a number of critical areas, including in respect of the lowering of the drink driving limits, automatic disqualification for drink drivers and stronger penalties for unaccompanied learner drivers. There are so many more.
We published in 2012 an information booklet for the families of road traffic victims: Finding Your Way. It talks families through the Garda investigation. We knew nothing when our loved ones died. The booklet also talks families through the inquest, the role of the DPP’s office, the questions they should be asking and the information they are entitled to.
I would now like to discuss in detail the key issues PARC believes must be urgently addressed by the RSA, An Garda Síochána and our Government, because we are very fearful that the gains of the road safety strategy for the period 2013 to 2020 are now being lost and that the target of the fifth road safety strategy, namely to halve the number of road deaths and serious injuries by 2030, is being abandoned. We would be grateful if the relevant agencies would address the urgently needed actions that we have grouped under ten headings and that, if acted upon, would get the fifth road safety strategy back on track.
No. 1, concerning learner permit holders, is closest to our hearts. When the RSA took over as the single authority in charge of driving licences and learner permits, it pledged, in the 2013 road safety strategy, that it would tackle the trend of people acquiring multiple learner permits without ever sitting a test. This has been going on since 2013. Every year, thousands are rolling up for their permits. They simply apply to sit the test and pay the RSA the required €85, yet time and again they get another learner permit without ever turning up for the test. That is appalling.
We thank the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, for insisting, when he took charge in May, that the RSA should reduce its driving test waiting time to an average of ten weeks so he could implement a plan to make it mandatory for any learner who has been four years on the road without sitting a test and who is seeking to be issued with a third learner permit by the RSA to turn up for a driving test and attempt it. The Minister of State said he had hoped to introduce the regulations by the end of September or the beginning of October. All the families in PARC who have lost loved ones in crashes involving unaccompanied learners, having waited 11 or 12 years for this to come about, need a date.
No. 2 concerns disqualified drivers. We attended courts all over the country for years and monitored what was happening when people went to court for penalty point offences, either to be convicted of those offences or to be disqualified. How many of them actually presented their licences in court to have their unique driver numbers recorded so the disqualification could be activated by the authorities? We were so alarmed as very few licences were presented. Parliamentary questions were asked lately about this and it materialised that 70% to 80% of drivers do not present a licence in the court.
Why is the driver number so important? Why does it need to be captured in court? It is a unique identifier associated with a driver’s record, including the driving licence, permit and any penalties. It is crucial for tracking driving history and managing disqualifications, yet 79% of drivers this year did not have it captured in court. All the agencies seem to be blaming each other. We would love a working group. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate produced a report in 2014 and stated it was alarming that very few were presenting a licence in court and also stated the matter had to be addressed. Working groups were set up and there were reviews. This entailed the work of the Departments of transport and justice, the Garda, the Courts Service and the RSA, yet we are told continually every year they are working to close this loophole.
We see no progress at all. We want to know where it is at now.
We asked how many people surrender their licences and permits when they are disqualified. In Northern Ireland, people have to give their licence into court on disqualification and it retains the licence. The driver number is caught; end of story. It is a brilliant solution. Here, it is a different jurisdiction. To surrender your licence here, the RSA asks the driver to put their licence or permit into an envelope and post it to a PO box in Cork. There is a 4% compliance rate; I wonder why. That system is not fit for purpose. The number in these dedicated, specialised roads policing unit should be increased. There are 633 in roads policing as of September. In 2009, there were 1,046. Last year at this committee, former Garda Commissioner Drew Harris stated he would allocate 75 to roads policing by the end of 2024 and another 75 by the end of 2025. We are not seeing that - 23 were allocated in the second half of last year. This year, we are told there are 68 new allocations. We are 82 short of 150. Can we get any reassurance that there will be more allocations not just to Dublin but to all units? They are specialised. We have such respect for the roads policing unit. They do wonderful work. We work with many of them. They need the numbers, equipment and vehicles. A lot of vehicles were out of service last year. The unit got 20 new marked vehicles but 18 were taken out of service. Eight were taken out this year again. They seem to be low on everything. We would love to see them get what they need to make our roads safer. I look forward to having the opportunity to hear the committee's views and take questions on the issues I have raised.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Ms Gray. It is budget week. Everybody is very busy. I am very grateful to see such a high attendance. It reflects the seriousness with which we all as Oireachtas Members and in particular as members of this committee take the topic of road safety. I express my gratitude to members. On their and my behalf, as we begin this session on road safety I would like to take a moment to acknowledge all those who have lost their lives or have been seriously injured on the roads. We think of Steve, Keelan, Jonathan and all others who have lost their lives. We will rightly focus today on issues around policy, enforcement, the legislative agenda, responsibility, resources and much more but we do so acutely aware that behind every statistic there is a person, a family and a community. Their lives are forever changed. We think of all victims and their loved ones today. I call Deputy O'Hara followed by Senator Cosgrove.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join the Chair in remembering all those who lost their lives and their families. I thank our witnesses for being here today. It is an important discussion. I will begin by asking about the Crowe report. It is very concerning. We all recognise the vast majority of roads policing unit personnel are very professional and committed in their roles but there appears to be a concerning culture among a minority within those units. How is An Garda Síochána going to change that culture? How will the witnesses ensure the recommendations of the report are implemented?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
There are ten recommendations in total. We have accepted all of them. Without going through all of it detail - I am happy to speak to the Deputy outside of the committee but it would take up the next hour - there are a couple of key pieces, one of which is with respect to performance regulations. We did not have performance regulations in An Garda Síochána. In terms of being able to manage performance, we were limited in what we could do. Now, legally, with the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024 we have performance regulations which we welcome. Our human resource people are actively working on what that will look like and how we operationalise it. We are looking at road policing as a way of beginning this process of programme management in terms of performance. We are also looking at personnel and equipment. We are doing a full review across the organisation. That has been important. It has been noted today.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would like to ask specifically about that because it stood out to me. Within roads policing units, the overall strength is 40% less than in 2009. Are there specific plans to increase the number of personnel?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I am a bit leery of that number because how we look at numbers now is different. I am looking at the past five years. I am aware that the former Commissioner, Drew Harris, made a commitment here last year and since that time we have put 68 people into roads policing. People leave, however; they either retire or go into other areas. It has not had the significant uplift we hoped for. I will not give a target today because we saw what happened last year. There is a commitment from An Garda Síochána. We take this very seriously. Commissioner Kelly has spoken to me personally about it to show he is committed. He asked me and Assistant Commissioner Gunne to review all of the numbers and see why we have the flow-throughs we do - this is attached to the Crowe report as well - in order to see what is happening and identify the areas where we can make improvements.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will move on to the Department and the national vehicle and driver file Bill. It is over a year since the RSA was before the Committee of Public Accounts speaking on this issue. I understand the data is not being shared with local authorities because of GDPR concerns. It is a concerning situation. Our local authorities which are responsible for maintaining roads are probably the first people who should have access to that kind of data. My understanding is that the RSA is providing information on fatalities but not specific information on collisions and injuries. Is that correct? GDPR legislation came into effect in 2018. Has it been seven years since local authorities received the road collision data? Why was this allowed to go on for so long?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I am not sure exactly when data sharing stopped. Collision data is collected by An Garda Síochána. The database is assembled and is then shared with agencies that have a legislative basis to receive it. A concern was raised about the RSA's legislative basis to receive the data which was resolved by way of a ministerial order last year. The RSA receives that information from the Garda. In the past, the RSA shared the information with local authorities. At a certain point, the local authorities got legal advice or the position from its data protection experts was that them receiving the data and analysis was in contravention of GDPR.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When did it receive that information?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why has this been allowed continue for so many years? It is 2025. Why has this not been addressed until now and is there a timeline for the new legislation?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
The legislative change that is required to the Roads Act 1993 is included in the NVDF Bill, which at drafting stage at the moment and is on the priority list for drafting in this legislative term. I cannot speak to exactly why the change came about. I know the RSA and the Department have made efforts to look at interim solutions or at ways in which the information could continue to be shared, but the local authority sector is adamant it does not have the legal basis for it to receive the data and process it. As an interim solution, the Department receives the information from the RSA, does analysis of it and shares that high-level analysis with the local authorities, and that is continuing. It is not that the local authorities are fully blind on this. Obviously, it would be better if they had the data themselves and could do the analysis themselves, but they are in receipt of information from the Department and on top of that the Department funds a programme of road investment work based on the locations identified through that.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Walsh.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could I just finally ask-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, I am going keep it tight to six minutes if you do not mind, Deputy O'Hara.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is simply because I want to be fair. We have a lot of members here. Senator Cosgrove is next, followed by Deputy Currie.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thanks, Chairman. Tá fáilte isteach roimh gach duine. I thank everyone for their opening addresses. I too extend my sympathies to Ms Gray and all the members of PARC who have lost loved ones in fatal road collisions.
I have a very simply question for the Department of Transport. I was at a very stark and shocking briefing last Thursday from the Love 30 campaign. There was a demonstration outside made up of so many civil society groups and people. We heard real stories of people whose lives have been destroyed by injury to themselves or a loved one, or fatal injury to a loved one, on the road. There was a commitment under the last Government's Road Traffic Act 2024 that the default within urban areas, around schools and in housing estates would be 30 km/h. There is concern among this group there is going to be a rowing-back on this and that it is going to be issued through by-laws. I know from being a county councillor that with by-laws it is slow, cumbersome and complicated to bring through. There was a speed review expert group made up of members of the Department of Transport, the RSA and TFI, but there is a worry this is being rowed back on and I am wondering if we can get a straight answer on whether it is.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I thank the Senator for the question. As she knows, the speed limit review went to Government and was approved by it in September 2023. The first phase of that, which was the reduction of local rural road speed limits from 80 km/h to 60 km/h, was done by way of national default through legislation in February of this year. The next phase of it, as the Senator outlined, is the change from 50 km/h down to 30 km/h in built-up urban areas. The hope or the intention was initially to do that second phase in the same manner by way of national default. However, when we looked into this, it just was not possible to do that. The reason is there is no definition in legislation of what a built-up urban area is, so it is not possible to, at the stroke of a pen, change the default 50 km/h in built-up urban areas down to 30 km/h. We effectively had two options when we were looking at how to implement this. When I say “we”, I mean the implementation group of experts looking at this. There were two options for implementing phase 2. One was to look as a first step to defining what a built-up urban area is and to put that definition in regulation or in legislation. It was felt that would be a very complex and technical thing to do and would take a lot of time. It was decided a better approach was to go down the local authority route and that is the approach that has been taken. Effectively, it will be a matter for local authorities via by-laws and decisions of the local councillors to identify built-up urban areas with roads that are 50 km/h and to reduce those to 30 km/h.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a lot of pushback on this and some county councils are not going to do it and it will not be implemented. The first phase is fantastic and really welcome. This group has suggested the introduction of special speed limits and having that be the by-law within the county councils. The default would be that it would go down to 30 km/h but county councils could apply to have special speed limits within certain conditions, as Mr. Walsh is saying. If there were disputes about what is an urban area or not, it would be the other way around, with the default being 30 km/h.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I do not think that would be possible because that level of definition does not exist, so there would have to be a lot of work to define which roads would be affected. The decision has been made to go with the approach of leaving this to the local authority process, though the Department will be issuing very shortly a circular to the local authority chief executives and it has also updated the guidelines for local authorities on speed limits to help them with those decision-making processes. That local-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are probably conditions to have amendments within the Road Traffic Act, though. That could be possible within the Act itself. I mean to change the default, like with phase 1. Phase 2 would be the same.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I think that would require more change of primary legislation and that would take time to do. Local authorities are not as quick as people might like, but we believe the local authority route is the quickest, most efficient way to do this at the moment. To encourage local authorities to make those decisions in a prompt manner, the Department will be providing funding to support those changes, but that funding will be linked to it being implemented in a co-ordinated way and within certain time frames.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a lot of disappointment. I am sure the officials have heard this and I know there was a representative from Mr. Kenny's office at it. There is a lot of disappointment because there is overwhelming evidence about reduced speed limits. I am just looking at some of the evidence we have been given here. If a pedestrian is hit be a car going at 30 km/h, one in ten will die; at 50 km/h, five in ten; and at 60 km/h, nine in ten. That is a massive difference between 30 km/h and 60 km/h. I thank Mr. Walsh.
I will move to the RSA. Maybe it ties in with Ms Gray's point about-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Maybe I will wait until it comes back around.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. We have received a notification from Senator Duffy that he is allocating his time to Deputy Currie.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank everyone sincerely for being here, especially PARC. There is a loophole whereby learner drivers can continually renew their permits without taking a test. I would like the Department to give Ms Gray an answer on when that loophole is going to be closed.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I thank the Deputy. As she knows, the policy objectives have been agreed and the regulations are being drafted. Effectively, this will mean it will only be possible for someone to be issued a third learner permit after taking and failing a test. It will also specify learners will only be able to hold a learner permit for seven years before they must start the learning-to-drive process again. That is the policy objective that has been agreed. We have, in the Department, drafted the regulations for the Minister to sign. We will very shortly be presenting those regulations to the Minister to sign. The only outstanding piece then, if the Minister signs them, is date on which those changes will take effect. We have to be conscious that there is quite a body of people who are driving on learner permits - 60,000 or so, depending on when you look at the figures - and while I fully agree they should not be continuing to drive on learner permits, we have to deal with the reality that there are 60,000 people driving on those permits and we need to give them time to prepare for this change. We are working with the RSA on how it can help them through that change process as well. We will be very shortly bringing the regulations to the Minister with a proposed timeline for implementation, effectively a data from which this will take effect. That date will be informed by the implementation plan we are working through with the RSA. It will ultimately be a decision of the Minister as to what date to go with.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the confirmation that in order to get your third learner permit, you will have to take a test, but I am frustrated at the delay. There was a commitment made that when the average waiting time for driving tests came down to ten weeks, this would be enacted without delay. That target was reached at the end of August and we are now in October. I want to convey the urgency required for a date.
We needed one date today for when they will be presented and another for when they will be implemented. I will leave that with the Department.
Through parliamentary questions, I have been able to establish that legislation from 2023 that would crack down on the growing use of illegal number plates on our roads is not being enforced. Through the mobility app, the Garda should be able to issue fixed charge notices of €60, but according to responses from the Minister for justice to parliamentary questions, the ICT systems have not been upgraded to allow that to happen. The Garda can issue a summons but I do not believe it will clog up the courts with that. Are the witnesses aware of that discrepancy and that the legislation we passed to make roads policing more efficient and productive has not been implemented? It is a question for all the witnesses, not only the Garda. I appreciate the work it does, but I would like to understand the reasons for this.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I will go first. I do not know the reason behind the licence plates specifically, but I know we have challenges with the national vehicle and drivers file and that it is a work in progress. However, I believe the specific issue of the use of illegal plates is attached to that issue. I will have to take that away and look into it, unless the assistant commissioner, Ms Gunne, is aware. I believe it is related to the national vehicle and driver file, which we do not have access to via the mobility app at this time.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Garda does not have access to that file. Am I correct in saying it is owned by the Department of Transport?
Ms Catharina Gunne:
I thank the Chair and committee for inviting us. I have recently been promoted and have taken up the role of assistant commissioner for roads policing and community engagement. A legal issue has arisen in relation to that matter. I can come back to the committee on that. I cannot expand on it at the moment.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have been asking the Minister for justice since July why it has not been implemented and we have not been given a reason. Why is that information not being shared? The obvious question is whether this has an impact on road safety. Does it, for instance, interfere with automatic number plate recognition or speed camera vans? I do not know why it has not been progressed, but I also do not understand the consequences and I am not feeling the urgency we require when it comes to compliance and consistency on our roads.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank everyone for being here and offer Ms Gray and everyone in the Gallery from PARC my deepest condolences. It is an absolute tragedy and life-changing, not just for the immediate family but also for friends of the deceased. I thank them for giving up their time to be here.
I will focus on one statistic around rural roads. Approximately 70% of fatalities occur on rural roads. Do we have a plan in place? I am sick to my teeth of asking local councils to cut hedges and fill potholes. Rural roads will always be more dangerous because when people go around a bend - they do not have to be speeding - if a tractor or combine harvester is coming in the other direction, they have no choice but to slam on the brakes, go into the ditch or hit the vehicle that is coming towards them. It is a given that there will be a higher rate of fatalities because of the type of machinery on rural roads and the size of the roads. They are smaller. Is there an overall plan to try to reduce the risk on rural roads? Obviously, it is not possible to have stationary cameras on rural roads. There are far too many of them. There are rural roads around every corner in rural Ireland. It would be impossible. I appreciate that we have a certain number of gardaí policing our roads. There is no possibility of getting them on rural roads. It is great to see them on the main roads, but they cannot be on rural roads because there are too many. Is there a strategy for trying to reduce the risk on rural roads? Anyone can answer.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
From an enforcement perspective, the Senator is right that it is challenging. At times, we still do speeding and vehicle checks on rural roads. The Senator is aware it is challenging, particularly depending on where they are. What helps us from an enforcement perspective is the reduction in speed limits across the country and we welcome that. From our perspective that has helped, but enforcement remains individual gardaí going out and doing enforcement where they can in those spaces.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is hard. I travel on rural roads every day and I do not think I have ever met a checkpoint on a rural road.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Please do not take this as a cynical statement. Seeing speed vans at the side of the road alerts people to look down at their speedometers to check whether they are speeding. It raises awareness, but I tend to find that they are not necessarily in blackspots. They are strategically put just around a bend where, if people are speeding, they will be fined, or where a speed limit on a main road has been temporarily decreased, such as for roadworks. It seems like more of a money maker than a road safety measure. People get cynical and annoyed about these things. We are all here for road safety. It seems that they are sometimes strategically put in places where it is more about money than road safety.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It is important, because we give feedback about where we would like speed checks to be. I liked something the Senator said. We do not want people to know where they are. I want people to think that even if they are in a place where they have to slow down for a short period, this is something they may encounter. Certainly, no money making comes out of this.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses. I will leave it there.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Goldsboro has indicated to me that she is allocating her time to Deputy Cathal Crowe.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses, especially those from An Garda Síochána. I have many friends in the force and their job has become more difficult in recent years. As public representatives, when we have opportunities to express gratitude on behalf of the people we represent, we should do so. Some cohorts of society have decided to make up their own rules, whether it is on the road or when they are out for a night and so on. Those of us who set the laws of Ireland should always place value on what the Garda does and support it at every opportunity.
In line with what the Cathaoirleach said, I pay tribute to those in the meeting room who have lost loved ones. It is hard to listen to their stories. Ms Gray spoke about policy changes, but her story began with how she lost her husband and that should be foremost in all our thoughts. Last November, we buried my mother-in-law, following a road traffic accident in Charleville, County Cork.
She is one of the 174 people whom we have referred to today.
There are a number of points I wish to make. The last time we dealt with road safety I spoke about unaccompanied learner drivers. It is probably a tone-deaf thing to bring up today given what Mr. Waide said at the beginning of his testimony. I wish to take a moment to clarify what I said because it ended up on the airwaves in the following days. It was with every good intention. I say that coming from a family who has lost a loved one on the roads in the past year. I thank Mr. Waide for coming back with detail on my contribution that day. The idea of having an accompanied driver makes so much sense. Sometimes theory and practice are two different things. The point I was making was that in rural counties like Clare where there is no Luas line or DART or whatever and people are trying to get to college and work, it is not always followed in practice. Our good colleagues in An Garda Síochána do not have the capacity to police that. That rule, though well-intentioned, is not operating very well. We should not say that things do not work and then abandon them and so on. That approach only ingrains danger on the roads further.
New technology cannot be ignored. Mr. Waide came back on that in great detail, which I appreciate. A lot of the e-scooters have speed restrictors on them, so no matter how fast a person tries to go, they cannot go over a certain speed. It is the same with a lot of these Vespas. The European Union has brought in a regulation that by next year there will be mandatory general safety regulation in all vehicles. It will alert drivers if they are veering out of their lane or getting drowsy. All of this will come in. The EU reckon this will save 25,000 lives by 2038. There has to be some technology that will control speed and ensure that a car going through a 60 km/h zone will be forced to slow down to that speed. Volkswagen cars in the city of Aachen in Germany are all regulated like this. No matter how fast they try to drive, a little chip will bring them down to the speed limit. We cannot be ignoring that new technology a decade on. Is there anything new the RSA is looking at in terms of these new technologies that we should be bringing into Ireland?
Mr. Sam Waide:
The RSA is not looking at specific solutions. We are aware of the general safety regulations are coming in for various vehicles. I will let my colleague Mr. Rowland touch on those. I have shared with the previous committees detail of what other countries have been trialling and the geofencing for speed, particularly on public buses. My understanding is that they trialled geofenced buses in Stockholm city centre. That is what the Deputy is referring to in terms of that technology and automated reduction of speed. I have raised this at various meetings. At the moment, the RSA does not have any particular specific proposals for that. I welcome that system as a whole. Going into the next three or five years of road safety, we cannot ignore technology. People share their experiences with me.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Forgive me, I wish to jump in again because of the clock. Technology has moved on light years in that ten-year period and policy has not matched it.
I have questions for the witnesses from An Garda Síochána. The last time we dealt with this body of work in the previous Oireachtas transport committee we looked at drug driving. An Garda Síochána has a way of testing people. I made the point that a driver may be in another person’s house or at a house party some evening and there may be somebody in the room smoking cannabis. A person cannot get passively drunk by sitting across from someone who is drinking, and if someone is smoking nicotine, that is another thing. However, a person who has not consumed marijuana can passively get high by sitting in the same room as someone who is smoking cannabis. The witnesses on the day admitted that was a lacuna in law. It is hard for someone to say, "I didn't consume it, but there was a guy sitting across from me all evening smoking a joint." Has An Garda Síochána come up a way to deal with that when they test people?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about smoked drugs, specifically, where a person could be inhaling a drug that is being consumed across a room from them?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that loophole still there?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Ms Gunne to be very brief.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I acknowledge the members of An Garda Síochána involved in roads policing. I particularly think of Garda Kevin Flatley today. The opening statement made clear that he was very passionate about road safety.
I wish to come back to a line of questioning that Deputy Currie had. Dr. Walsh said that approximately 60,000-plus drivers are on a learner permit of more than three years. Is that correct?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The regulation is being finalised. The Minister has to sign and then there is an effective date. When is the regulation expected to be available to the Minister for signing?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The concern around the date is the impact that 60,000 learner permit drivers may have on waiting lists for a driving test. Am I right in saying that we have waiting times down to approximately between nine and ten weeks at the moment? If I am recalling the RSA’s action plan correctly, there is capacity in the system to do approximately 7,000 or 8,000 tests per week.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has there been any discussion between the RSA, the Department and the Minister in recent weeks about the impact that a surge, if I can call it that, of 60,000 tests may have on waiting times? Is that a concern for the RSA, or can Mr. Waide say to us today that there is capacity within the RSA to take on those 60,000 additional tests? What impact will it have on waiting times?
Mr. Sam Waide:
Yes, we have been in detailed discussions with the Department. Dr. Walsh referred to how we implement this. I and everyone else in the RSA respect the point that Ms Gray made earlier that this has been going on for so long and needs to be resolved. We are fully committed to resolving and addressing it. It is about how we implement it so there is not that surge of people, including young people, who are awaiting a driving test. The Chair is correct that we have got the wait times down to below ten weeks in some test centres. It needs to be managed and implemented in a structured way so it does not lead to that surge. It may benefit one part of the system, but it could have a negative impact on other people waiting for their tests. My colleague, Mr. Brendan Walsh, and I have had discussions with the Department about how to implement it.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to press Mr. Waide further because it is critical to close the loophole for learner drivers. On those discussions that the RSA has had with the Minister, is there a strategy being formulated?
If the Minister asks what is the effective date by which he can sign this regulation, has the RSA said to the Minister that he has to hold off two or three months or can he do this straight away?
Mr. Sam Waide:
What I would like to do is share with committee members. I am looking at Mr. Brendan Walsh in that regard. It is really important for the committee to understand the breakdown of that 60,000 because there is a diverse range of people in terms of age groups. I will pass to my colleague to give that breakdown. That will inform-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My time is very limited. Of those 60,000, how many are on ten learner permits or more? Are some of those 60,000 people on 20 learner permits? What people really want to know today is when the regulation will be signed and when it will be effective from.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A total of 6,000 people are on ten learner permits or more.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
We have to be mindful of this because it is not just the testing capacity. The RSA has 11 different IT systems that we have to change. We have engaged with our suppliers on those systems. We are working through the specifications of those changes that will be required. We are working with the Department on how long that will take.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to press here that closing this loophole is such a serious issue. Has the RSA indicated to the Minister how soon it can take on this additional demand for testing? Is there a date before which the RSA cannot take it on?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What is the timeframe for this?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So we will have no idea at the conclusion of this committee meeting whether we can close this loophole from 1 January 2026, 1 June 2026 or 1 January 2027. Is there any indicative time that the RSA can say to this committee, given the importance of closing this loophole? Its impact is very clear. It will save lives. Is the RSA able to give any indication to the committee as to when it can take on this additional capacity?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
In relation to when we can do it, we are almost at the end of the scoping exercise. Once that is concluded, we will engage with our colleagues in the Department of Transport - I would expect in the very near future - to agree this. We will come back to the committee in a very short time. We are well advanced.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would like to extend all my condolences to everyone here who has lost a loved one. Well done to Ms Gray. She did very well. I want to follow on from Deputy Currie and the Cathaoirleach in terms of where we are at with this. It would be really helpful if the RSA sent us a briefing note. I am totally confused as to why there are 11 different systems and many different contractors.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It would be really helpful is the RSA sent us a background, a briefing note and a breakdown of that 60,000. I reiterate that we need to have that loophole closed. We do not want to hear that the RSA is continuing to scope it.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Mr. Walsh have data on the number who book a driving test but do not turn up?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The RSA might include that in the briefing note as well. When could we expect that briefing note?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We might follow up if we do not receive it within two weeks.
I would also like to talk to the gardaí. I express my condolences on the passing of Garda Flatley. He was from my own constituency and I was very sorry to hear of his death. In terms of the roads policing unit, I am a little bit confused about the numbers. What is the target number for both vehicles and resources? I fully accept that there is attrition in any given year, but I am totally confused as to what the target number is for resourcing the roads policing unit.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What was given last year was that there would 150 additional. Was the target the number we had last year plus 150?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
It was contingent on - and this is why we are doing a review - the number of gardaí we got into the organisation. As the Deputy knows, we have been running at a flat line all the way along. In the last year I have shared already how many we have put in. In terms of a target number, one was given last year. We were not able to meet it and we were in the process of looking at all of the numbers. We are committed to increasing it, but I am not comfortable giving a number today.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not trying to catch Dr. Coxon out. When I go to my primary care centre and ask how many full-time physiotherapists it has, I am told it is meant to have ten but it only has six. Its ideal number is ten. I am very confused as to why-----
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We do not have baseline numbers. We do not have an HR system internally that does that. That is part of what we are looking at. Even though we counted the number ten years ago, what is counted in now versus then is different. We do not have a baseline. I can only share with the Deputy what we have.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many do we have now?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many did we have last year?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many vehicles did the unit have last year?
Ms Catharina Gunne:
I will come in with regard to the vehicles. We have 311 vehicles attached to the roads policing units. In 2024, we had total expenditure of €22 million. We have €10 million to date in 2025. I am delighted to announce that across the next week or two we will have 16 additional bespoke vehicles with ANPR and fitted with the necessary capabilities going to our roads policing units. Five will go to the north-western region, four to the southern region, four to the eastern region, two to the Dublin metropolitan region and one to the Dublin metropolitan region roads policing.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What was the total number of vehicles last year and what is the total number of vehicles this year? I know some of the vehicles have been retired.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are actually fewer than there were last year.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that due to budgetary issues?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am very focused on making sure that An Garda Síochána has the vehicles that it needs. When Ms Gunne says she is growing the fleet, unfortunately there is a decline from last year.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
There is. The fleet is not just cars, of course. Roads policing units are able to use other vehicles in the fleet as well. The fleet is larger than we ever had before. These are ones that are dedicated to the roads policing unit. The challenge that we are having is the cycle out with respect to old vehicles being taken off.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What does An Garda Síochána need? What could we do to support it? What could we ask the Minister for justice to do to support it in order to make sure that we are not seeing decreases year-on-year but, rather, that we are seeing increases in both the numbers and the vehicles?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We have a good capital budget and a larger fleet than we have ever had before. The challenge has been the supply of vehicles. This is happening across Europe. At this point, with the budget coming out today, we have the money we need. The challenge is supply. We have been working with vendors across Europe.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
First, I extend sympathies to the family of Garda Kevin Flatley, who was killed in the line of duty not so many months ago. I also extend sympathies to the people from PARC who have lost loved ones in terrible tragedies.
I am not going to go over some of the questions that have been asked already. We know that speeding is shocking and dangerous. Drugs and all that is a huge contributing factor to accidents and people being killed on the roadside. I raise the issue of the condition of roads. I am going to the RSA and the Department of Transport on this.
The condition of the roads is appalling. I drive approximately 110,000 km per year. I know every inch of the roads in west Cork. Mother of God, the witnesses would want to come with me to see the condition of the roads there. Senator Collins referred to the fact that the presence of verges at the roadside means that lorries have no choice but to cross the white line. It costs €1,000 if you lose a mirror. Cars can probably get away with it up to a point, but lorries and buses must cross the white line of the road because they have no choice. Good God almighty, the accidents are frightening. We see them. Have the witnesses any plans going forward? Last summer, I was in County Clare on a Sunday. I had plenty of time to drive around for a while. The verges were cut cleanly. Everybody was driving well and safely. Lord God, coming down to my constituency is frightening beyond belief. What is the matter? Is the funding not being provided? Is the local authority not doing its job? We cannot leave tree branches hanging across roads and expect people to drive. It is not safe.
There are no road markings on most roads. I have been looking for road markings for the past six months on the Skibbereen Road coming out to the Drimoleague main road. Cars have been driving straight out onto the main road because drivers do not realise they have to stop. There were road markings but they are gone. It is the same story all over. These are the very basic things that we must get right. We must at least have a proper road structure.
Roadside drains need to be cleared. Roads are being washed away. I accept that will always happen with floods. Long ago, the local authority worker was out there doing his or her work. It was mainly men. Those roads were always clear and there was no floodwater on them. People are pulling out the whole time and crossing the road because they cannot drive properly in those conditions.
The road markings, verge cutting and clearing are the three areas I raise. Perhaps the witnesses from the representatives of the RSA or someone else will give me a straight answer. Is something going to happen or are we going to leave it to chance and hope for the best? Is that where we are? That is where we are at this point and have been for the past ten or 15 years.
I would like to know that status of driving tests at the moment. How quickly are young people able to apply and get driving tests?
The representative from the RSA mentioned third level education. That is the tool that will work. However, we need to go back to second level education. In fairness, the RSA might be doing that. I do not mean to be disrespectful. Young people at the age of 15, 16 and 17 are mad to get into a car. Sometimes, a car is like a loaded gun. They are getting into their cars and they must be educated. We in Bantry are lucky because we have a school of motoring. Surely there should be schools of motoring throughout the country to which young people should be taken. Going forward, it should be a part of the curriculum when they are 15 or 16 to teach them how to drive safely.
I have only left two and a half minutes for the witnesses to reply. I will say one thing further in respect of An Garda Síochána. We are lucky to have what we have, but we in south-west Cork only got one extra garda in the most recent roll-out of officers. That is unfair. It is leaving towns without gardaí. That is happening. Rural policing is the best way forward. I do not want to mention gardaí by name but there are some great gardaí out there because they are local. They know what is going on. They know the young fellows who are acting the eejit with cars.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy has left two minutes for an answer.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would love to keep going. The gardaí know the young people who are acting the fool with cars and they nip it in the bud. In respect of verge cutting, road markings and clearing roads, who is taking responsibility? Nobody.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy might direct his question to a particular witness.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is for the RSA or the Department of Transport or whomever has the authority to say what is to be done.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do not worry about that. Leave that alone. The other questions are more important. They are all important but the problem is that we are running out of time.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
It is not an area in respect of which the Department has a central role. It is, by and large, a matter for local authorities. There was good news announced in this regard in the budget. There has been an increase of just over €200 million to the allocation for national, regional and local road networks and road safety measures for 2026. That will bring the total allocation for maintenance and road safety work to €1.7 billion. That covers the entire road network, including the different types of roads, and the Department works closely with local authorities. At the Department of Transport level, we do not have a direct influence on road marking, hedge cutting and those sorts of matters. They would be the responsibility of the local authorities.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is a huge issue in the context of safety on roads. Why is it not under the brief of the Department to ensure that roads are safe? A road cannot be safe if a lorry or bus is forced to drive across the white line because it cannot drive within it. Something is wrong somewhere. I am not being smart or smarmy. I ask the witnesses to sit into the car with me and I will show it to them all over west Cork. It is not just in one area but all over.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about the driving tests? How quickly can they be booked?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy asked about the waiting times for the driving test.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I asked about the driving test.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Walsh. Deputy Cathal Crowe has indicated that he is allocating his slot to Deputy Moynihan, who will be followed by Deputy Currie. Deputy Kelly asked to come in earlier so I will pass the floor to him after Deputy Currie. I call Deputy Moynihan, the Vice Chairman of the committee.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for coming in. Garda Kevin Flatley was from my constituency. I extend my condolences to his family and to the families of all victims of road traffic accidents around the country.
My first question is for the RSA. I have concerns about its ability to deliver against the plan it gave us in April. According to that plan, the RSA is to have 200 testers in post. We only have 195. We missed the August target. What accounts for that delay and when will we hit 200?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The target was to have 200 testers prior to the end of August.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am talking about the number of testers in the plan.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Mr. Walsh to wait for a moment so we are both clear on the question. The target was for 200 testers at the end of August. That is not what the CSO data states was achieved by the end of August.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will the 200 be in place?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Walsh. Why was the target of 30,348 tests delivered for August? According to the numbers I have, there were only 24,269 tests. What accounts for the shortfall of 6,000?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
The reason for the difference in the test numbers was that we simply did not have the capacity. We also had issues about getting the testers on board. Because of the reduced capacity I had as a result of pulling out testers to train the new testers quicker than had originally been planned, there was an impact.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does that account for the fall of 4,000 tests between July and August? It rose again in September. Is that why?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
No, it is not. What happened was that during that period the number of applications also decreased. The decrease in the number of applications in the months of June and July helped us to close the gap. It meant that by the time we got to the end of August, we were in a position whereby we had achieved the SLA figures by delivering a lesser number of tests than were in the plan. However, the number of tests we delivered was 35% above what we delivered in the previous year.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept that the SLA target is a waiting time of ten weeks. What proportion of total driving test applicants are waiting for longer than that? I accept that ten weeks is the average. Obviously, there are massive variations around that. I know Tallaght in my constituency, for example, is an area with an enormous waiting time. What percentage of driving test applicants are waiting longer than ten weeks?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
That was when we commenced this plan. We are still working in Tallaght. The highest number of testers in the country are in Tallaght and that will continue to be the case. We hope to open a new testing centre in Sandyford, subject to the conditions of a lease being agreed. Those conditions still have not been agreed. We hope to get waiting times in Tallaght down to the target in the SLA. At the moment, it looks like we will get those times down in November or December.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Of the applicants on lists at the moment, what proportion have been waiting for longer than ten weeks?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
It is not measured by individuals but by test centres. I have approximately 17 test centres that are above the ten-week SLA target. I have other test centres for which the waiting time is as low as four weeks. We are actively looking at our resources and plan to move testers from centres where the waiting time is four weeks to areas where there is a higher SLA. We are still actively working on this plan. The overall objective of ten weeks has been achieved. The relevant number at our most recent attendance before the committee was 23. We are continuing to work on it.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The information I have would suggest that at the end of August, 43% of all applicants were waiting longer than ten weeks. I advise that in the future, in the context of this report, the number is given as a total number of applicants. The SLA number according to test centre is well and good, and I accept that is the methodology. However, it could be interpreted by some people that we would expect the same level and no variation in test centres across the country. It would be useful when we correspond again to know the overall proportion of applicants waiting for a test who have been waiting for longer than the average SLA. The average is only one figure and I would prefer to see some variation in that regard. I thank Mr. Walsh for his answers.
I will come to An Garda Síochána next. How many checkpoints on average are completed across the country every week?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
While Dr. Coxon is looking for that information, I will move on to the Department.
Regarding holding various State agencies to account, what mechanisms does the Department have in place in the context of holding the RSA accountable for its key performance indicators, KPIs?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
That works on two levels in the case of the RSA. The RSA is an agency of the Department. Ultimately, therefore, it is responsible and accountable to the Minister for Transport. Obviously, the board of the RSA is involved in that process. Beyond the normal oversight of non-commercial State agencies like the RSA, there is also the road safety leadership group, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Canney. This group brings together representatives from all the agencies involved in road safety. Those involved are the CEOs of the agencies, the Garda assistant commissioner for roads policing and relevant departmental staff. We all report to the Minister on quarterly basis.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are reports on KPIs and so on provided?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the context of the community safety partnerships being rolled out across the country, what action is the Department of Transport taking with An Garda Síochána to work with local authorities, especially where road safety and road maintenance are issues? As Mr. Walsh rightly stated, the latter is the responsibility of local authorities. What is the mechanism to communicate strategic leadership to those local authorities regarding what needs to be done on roads?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
The County and City Management Association is represented on the road safety leadership group that I mentioned. The Department has a series of relationships with local authorities. Most of our work with them involves funding investment programmes relating to the road system. This involves investment in maintenance, new roads and road safety upgrades. Investment in roads is our main interaction with the local authority sector.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will come back to that question because Deputy Moynihan will have another slot later. Next is Deputy Currie. She will be Deputies O'Gorman and Kelly. We will then back to Deputy Moynihan.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to go back to the representatives An Garda Síochána. It was mentioned that the NVDF is not connected to the mobility app. In replies to parliamentary questions I have tabled in respect of disqualified drivers, it has been stated that An Garda Síochána has access to the NVDF as part of its mobility strategy. I am looking for clarity on that. How do front-line gardaí identify and stop disqualified drivers on our roads?
Ms Catharina Gunne:
I can take that. The Deputy is correct in the point she made. At the moment, An Garda Síochána has mobility devices. We have immediate access to insurance from the Irish motor insurance database. In the context of our mobility devices, we have, on average, 2,200 detections per month of people driving without insurance. We have seized over 1,600 vehicles.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know all the figures, and I know how impactful the insurance side has been.
Ms Catharina Gunne:
For example, we have partial access to the NVDF. We can see a disqualified driver - we have a yes-no answer in relation to that - or if a licence is to be surrendered. We do not know the category of the licence or how many penalty points are involved. This data would be a game-changer for us, and we are working on it. In September, we signed an MOU in respect of that matter. We are working through the process relating to that. Gardaí do not have that data on the side of the road.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does An Garda Síochána have access to data on all the disqualified drivers?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For all for all drivers.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am still trying to get clarity here. As Ms Gray said earlier, only 4% of drivers who are disqualified in court surrender their licences. The information is transferred from the Courts Service to the Department of Transport's NVDF database. That is then used to inform the mobility app. Is An Garda Síochána getting all the information it needs to inform the mobility app and to clearly identify if somebody has been disqualified in court?
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
I will pass over to my friends in the Department next. Some of the information is incomplete, and we are working through an MOU right now. We have a pilot going in Kildare. We do not have all of the information that we would like. We have some and we are working on getting more. I know that is a simplistic answer - without getting into all of the details. Perhaps the Department can help.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a very simple question that I am looking for clarity on. For all of those disqualified drivers, whether they surrender their licences or not, does An Garda Síochána have enough information at the roadside to then identify and prosecute them?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Do Dr. Coxon understand why that sounds so shocking?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
Could I maybe just give a little more background to this? The Department and An Garda Síochána have exchanged data for many years. Earlier this year, we carried out a review of that. What we found was that we had 15 different data exchanges going from the NVDF database to An Garda Síochána. Some were happening daily, some weekly and some fortnightly. We have worked very closely with colleagues in An Gardá Síochána over the past few months. It has been confirmed in the new MOU that has been signed. We have put all of that data on a new platform. It is exchanged on a nightly basis. This has only happened in the past few weeks. It is my understanding that this is how An Garda Síochána normally rolls out new data sources or new information. That is being made available to the mobility app through a testing group. Those people are giving feedback to the Department on the data, and we are addressing this feedback. The data-sharing agreement is in place and the data is in place. It is then a matter for An Garda Síochána to manage how that is provided to front-line gardaí.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have only 30 seconds left. I am shocked that Mr. Walsh is talking about data sharing for weeks, particularly when for years the issue of the non-surrender of licences in court has been highlighted. Responses to successive parliamentary questions have indicated that it is not an issue and that it does not mean we cannot stop disqualified drivers on the road
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not good enough. The responses to parliamentary questions I tabled say that the holders of foreign licences and those who never had licences cannot be identified, and I understand that. What I do not understand, however, is that there has been an acceptance of people not surrendering their licences when disqualified drivers who cannot be identified are on our roads.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Love 30 group and the Dublin Commuter Coalition made a presentation to Oireachtas Members last week. They set out how implementing a default 30 km/h speed limit in urban areas could have a major impact on crashes and how it could reduce the number of deaths and the seriousness of injuries, particularly for vulnerable road users. The default 30 km/h speed limit is provided for in the 2024 Act. The purpose of that was to implement the results of the 2023 speed limit review. It was also the result of a commitment in the programme for Government. A great deal of work went into it. My understanding is that An Garda Síochána made a submission to the review stating that it supported the 30 km/h limit. I am really concerned about the approach that the Department is now suggesting, namely that we leave this to local authorities. That is just going to allow the proposal to wither on the vine. I was in a really good local authority for five and a half years, but things take a long time there. This has been adopted as a national policy within legislation, and yet we are now leaving it as an option. Can the Department compel the local authorities to adopt the 30 km/h speed limit? Why can the existing definition of a built-up area in section 5 of the 2004 Act, not be used?
It has been working for 21 years. That is what the amendment in the 2024 Act was amending. Why can we not at least start there as the starting position for implementing the default 30 approach?
Mr. Tomás Campbell:
On the definitional issue, we can come back to the Deputy with a more detailed note, but the 2004 Act used the Local Government Act 2001 as a basis for built-up areas. I think that has been largely superseded in planning law, so the built-up areas defined in that Act no longer really apply. There has been a lot of urban development over the past 25 years and using the definition in the 2001 Act would no longer really be tenable. Our initial expectation-----
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With respect, I suggest that it is more tenable than using no definition at all and just saying it is too hard.
Mr. Tomás Campbell:
Our long-term hope would be to define a new urban area. Anything within a geographic region defined as an urban area would have a default applied to it, but that would take time, so in the short term, special speed limits are a way to implement it. It is also consistent with what the Minister, Deputy Chambers, said in the Oireachtas, which is that the local government role in speed limits would be respected. If we brought in a default limit with a poorly defined urban area, we may end up with roads that appropriately have a different speed limit being at the lower limit. The guidelines are statutory, so it is not that there is no statute behind this. The local authorities have to take cognisance of the guidelines when they are published.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
The guidelines have been approved by the Minister and a circular will be issued from the Department - from the Minister - to the local authorities with the updated guidelines. The Department will also follow up with funding to support the changes, but that funding will be linked to local authorities making those changes in a timely period. A bit of nudging is involved but we believe that local authorities will act as required.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A bit of nudging is fine but this is a decision that went through the Government. It was decided to go with the 30 km/h default limit. That has been put in legislation. With respect, I do not think it is a matter of nudging. It should be implemented. For want of the discussion that is needed to find an appropriate definition, I do not think it is acceptable that that is the crux between whether what has been put into law is actually implemented or not.
If I could ask colleagues from the Department another question, when the RSA was last here, we discussed the barrier to the sharing of data between the RSA and local authorities concerning crashes. I thank the RSA for writing to me subsequently. Could I get an update on the national vehicle and driver file, NVDF, Bill, which I understand will address this? I understand the Department must engage with the Data Protection Commission about the proposed legislation because the data is considered personal data. Has that engagement taken place? What is the view of the Data Protection Commission on that data? When will the national vehicle and driver file Bill come before the Cabinet for approval and when will we see it on Second Stage? When the RSA wrote to me over the summer, it said it would be the autumn. It is mid-October now and we have not seen sight nor sound of it. It suggested it would be passed by the end of the year. That is very optimistic at this stage. Will the witnesses give me a sense of when they expect to see it in the Dáil?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
What is required to allow the local authorities to receive and process the collision data is an amendment to the Roads Act 1993, to give them a legal basis that is sufficient and meets the criteria set out under data protection requirements. That amendment is contained in the NVDF Bill. Government approved the general scheme of that Bill in May or April of this year. We have been working in the Department, alongside our colleagues in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, on the drafting. The Bill is on the priority list for drafting in this legislative term. Every week, if not more often, we have back and forth with Office of the Parliamentary Counsel colleagues. Our understanding is that the drafting is nearly complete. I was optimistic that the Bill could have been completed this side of Christmas. Unfortunately, that will be unlikely now. I hope that we will move to publication this side of Christmas and through the Oireachtas after Christmas.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has engagement with the Data Protection Commission taken place or how long will that take?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Walsh is saying 2026, at the earliest, at this stage.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My first question is for the RSA. I look at its website and at the percentage of driving test passes and fails across different test centres. I have asked this question in the Dáil. Does the RSA break it down by tester? A "Yes" or "No" would suffice.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
But the RSA does not publish that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with Mr. Walsh. When I raised this in the Dáil in February, I asked that question and could not get an answer at the time. I did say that if it was done, it would have to be anonymised. If there is a small number of testers, that creates another difficulty, and I accept that. It is just as long as the RSA does it.
Here is a story. In February, the test pass rate in my home town of Nenagh was 31.9%. Up the road in Thurles, it was 74.4%. That is inconceivable. They are up the road from one another. I have people coming to me crying. One person emigrated over failing the test twice. That person's job opportunities changed. It affects people going to college. One young girl's indicator was flashing in a slightly different shade to the other indicator and she could not do the test. There was a failure rate so high that I had to raise it in the Dáil, given that so many people in my home town and its surrounds were raising this issue. Amazingly enough, as a consequence - I do not know why - there was a change, and because there has been a change, the pass rate, which I have monitored since then, has gradually crept up. It is not at the national average but it is not far off it. Why did I-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why did I have to raise it in the Dáil?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
The Deputy raised it in the Dáil, but regarding what we were doing, we continuously look at pass rates from our testers, particularly in small test centres, where unfortunately it may be possible to identify an individual tester. We continuously work with testers through our management team to identify why issues occur, and when they occur, we have to put in place a process. I am very familiar with the situation the Deputy is referencing.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I raised it through parliamentary questions and so on long before I raised it in the Dáil, so I have been on this for a long time. What Mr. Walsh is summarising is that the RSA does this-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----analysis down to the tester. He is saying that, whether through the RSA's own statistics, awareness from me or others, though that is not the issue, the RSA was on top of this and decided to make changes as a consequence.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Obviously, there could be a slight variation. I understand that. That is not an issue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did the RSA deliberately make a change?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not want to get into personal details.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is it safe to say that the RSA dealt with the issue?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In other words, if there is overzealousness-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I raised it in the Dáil and the change happened pretty immediately afterwards. That might be a coincidence and if it is, that is fine. I was raising it for a long time beforehand until I got so frustrated when somebody came into my office, crying, when parents came to me and when employers came to me, and when a person had a change in circumstances, could not get a licence and decided to go to Australia. Then the change happened and I am glad to hear that the RSA is doing this monitoring, because it is totally necessary, but many people suffered while that monitoring was going on. Many people did not get licences. Maybe 20% more people should have got licences on top of the 30% who did, which would bring it up to 50%. Maybe the intervention should have happened earlier.
I am not making a huge criticism, only an observation. For a young person going to college in Limerick and working weekends, €85 is a lot of money to blow three times because of an overzealous tester.
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
In addition, we carry out continuous monitoring over the quality of all tests. We do not just look at a particular pass rate. We go back to look at maybe six months' worth of tests that were carried out. We would validate if testers were being overzealous in one particular area and instigate training.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It took me a considerable amount of time to ask questions and eventually bring it up in the Dáil. I suggest that the RSA have a period of maybe three months where it does this analysis down to the tester to see if there is a trend developing. Unfortunately, in my locality of Nenagh and the surrounds, a lot of people suffered as a result of this. I am not blaming Mr. Walsh individually, but we need to ensure circumstances like that, in whatever test centre, never happen again.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know Deputy Moynihan left a question hanging with An Garda Síochána.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will follow up on that now and keep going. The question was about how many checkpoints were located and completed around the country on average every week.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What does Ms Gunne mean by "on average"?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is on the total of the year before.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will she give me information on the percentage of those checkpoints at which a significant arrest or detection was made?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the witnesses come back with the three years preceding as well, if that is all right, to see the trend analysis?
I would like a comment from An Garda Síochána about the role of community safety partnerships. I was chair of my own joint policing committee in south Dublin for quite a time. Road traffic and road safety were not necessarily mandates we had. I thought it was a missed opportunity, given the expertise and the now devolved nature of roads policing to districts across the country. How does An Garda Síochána work on a local basis with local authorities on road safety?
Ms Catharina Gunne:
We are doing collaborative work with the local authorities. There is a road safety officer in all of the local authorities. We have 31 in total. We have done great work in Mayo and the north-western region, and this week with Age Action Ireland. It is a two-pronged approach in utilising that older generation, focusing on outreach to them, but also utilising their influence. We will be in Cavan on 20 October and we have been in Kerry during the summer. We are there to support the local authorities. Our role is supportive. We have a representative from roads policing and the local division. There is a lot of advocacy work being done there and a concentration and combined approach to commit to road safety.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For DMR west last year, we saw an increase in the number of unaccompanied drivers arrested and charged. Has that trend persisted to quarter 2 of this year?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a key one we are looking at, as it is a particular issue. It would be good to get analysis of it.
I will return to the Department. In terms of various other schemes being supported by departmental policy, has any thought been given to a learner driver mentor programme similar to what is piloted in Australia and New Zealand?
Mr. Michael Rowland:
The RSA has commissioned Queensland University of Technology to research best practice in learning to drive. It is doing case studies and looking at other best practice countries to see what recommendations can be made. That work will be done towards the end of the year, and we will have results to the Department in the first month of-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What is the expected timeframe for an implementation plan if there is one?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If the recommendations were accepted, what sort of timeframe would the Department be looking at for an implementation plan?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In terms of accepting the recommendations in principle, what sort of timeframe would the Department give to committing to that?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will read from the answer I received recently to a parliamentary question, which states: "Failing to surrender a licence following disqualification is also an offence and is a matter for the Garda Síochána." Just 4% of people in court surrendered their licences. From the answer to another parliamentary question, I believe one person was fined in recent years, back in 2022. It also states: "An Garda Síochána have access to data on the National Vehicle and Driver File and can detect and prosecute drivers who continue to drive while disqualified, whether or not their licence has been surrendered." We have shown today that picture is not complete. The third point, also from a parliamentary question, states that when they do not present their licences in court, "the National Driving Licence Service (NDLS), operated by the Road Safety Authority (RSA), conducts a manual search" of all disqualified drivers to try to match the disqualification with their driving information. That sounds like a huge amount of work to do manually. Why are we not following the example of what is happening in the North and requiring people to surrender their licences in court?
Mr. Keith Walsh:
The NVDF, which the Department maintains, is the register of all licensed drivers and the penalty points and disqualifications on their records. The NVDF gets information. The Department gets information for the NVDF from a range of sources like the Garda, the RSA and the courts, sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. I know the Deputy has asked a lot of parliamentary questions on this and there are different ways of looking at it. It may be useful to give the overall figures for 2024. The NVDF and the Department were notified of 10,910 disqualifications in 2024. Some 82% of those, or 8,988, have been matched to a driver record on the NVDF. That 82% will never be 100% because there are foreign licenceholders who could be disqualified or people who are disqualified who have never held a licence. That will never be 100%. Yes, it probably should be higher than 82%. We do a lot of work in the Department on matching, as do colleagues in the RSA. As the Deputy knows from her parliamentary questions, about 25% of courts information has a driver number, and we get that right up to an 82% match. That is through the matching work we do. It would be great if more driver numbers were captured through the courts system, but we also have to recognise that the courts are an incredibly busy setting. Even though it is an offence not to present the licence, there is not always time for the procedures to be followed. From the Department's perspective-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Very quickly, Deputy.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I recognise it is a huge amount of work. That is why I am saying I think this would be more efficient. It would be useful to have the data Mr. Walsh has just referenced, so we understand what we are not capturing. The Department should be transparent with us about what those numbers are, and then I will not have to ask so many parliamentary questions.
Mr. Keith Walsh:
I know the Chair wants me to finish. However, I was going to suggest it would be useful if we write to the Deputy or the committee afterwards. I appreciate she is trying to get information through parliamentary questions, and we are answering them as best we can. Often, she might ask about a specific piece. We will come back with-----
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I think Mr. Walsh understands what I am trying to get at.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
And, crucially, how many are not being captured. That is what I would like to know. I thank the witnesses for being here, and for all the information they have provided.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have some observations. It was raised that 70% of road fatalities are on rural roads. Five out of six, excluding Dublin, have been along the west coast, three in the west and north west - Mayo, Galway and Donegal. There has to be a correlation - the populations are less but we do not have the available public transport. This needs to be addressed. The western rail corridor needs to be addressed. Outside Dublin, it is Cork, Kerry and it goes all the way up the west coast as far as Donegal. The lack of public transport is glaring. On learner permit holders, I spoke to driving test instructors because I knew the RSA was coming before the committee today. They suggested looking at the RSA website so people can book cancellations or show what cancellations are available on the website. There is an external app called DriveNow which costs €12. It just collates the RSA's information. In fairness, I have to commend the Department of Transport and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, that the waiting times have come down for driving tests to ten weeks. A driving instructor suggested that when someone gets their learner permit, they should be able to apply for their test then. They would work backwards with their instructor. They would pick a date they know suits them. They would have their 12 mandatory lessons done but they could work backwards instead of the other way around. It might also be a way to address non-attendance at tests. They also asked why people are double tested. Why are questions about engine parts and other things that are addressed in the theory test part of the driving test? Is it a waste of time?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If it is necessary to have another app which people are obviously using, would it be useful?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It must address a need. Otherwise, it would not exist. People are willing to pay €12 for it.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We need to wrap up.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have been here for hours just for my three minutes.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will give you an extra minute.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will try to be quick. On booking tests when you get your licence, the mandatory 12 lessons are exactly that. There is an additional 36 hours of accompanied driving required at a minimum to achieve a level of competence. In some cases, that is a lot more depending on the individual. Getting your learner permit and booking a test is not the most effective. We would see people arrive for tests who are not prepared. During their journey, they may have issues they need to work on
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That would counteract it. If people have done their 12 lessons, their instructor will have said they are ready and then they wait four months for the test and they lose all their skills.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was about double testing. Why are theory questions asked in the driving test when the theory test is already done?
Mr. Brendan Walsh:
You need to understand your vehicle - open the bonnet, change a wheel and give a real example of that. We like to see people understand the vehicle they drive. There was reference earlier to ADAS systems on vehicles. It is important that as part of your ownership and driving of the vehicle, you understand how those systems work. I advocate that good vehicle knowledge is an important part of driving.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the Queen's University study, will driving instructors will be included as part of the stakeholder body?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have a few minutes left. I call Deputy Shane Moynihan.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is up to now so it is likely it will top out at 1,200 by the end of the year.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You can come back in if you want to put something on the record about disqualified drivers. The deputy commissioner indicated she wanted to speak.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You can put it on the record now if you wish.
Dr. Shawna Coxon:
We do see if someone is disqualified, yes or no. We are working the Department to determine how to share more information. I know the Deputy was looking for a simple answer which I understand. It is because we do not see all categories. We do not have full access so we do not see things like penalty points. This could be an issue with respect to disqualification. That is the point I was trying to make earlier.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will now bring the meeting to a conclusion. On behalf of myself and members, I sincerely thank our witnesses from the Department of Transport, Dr. Walsh and Mr. Campbell; from the Road Safety Authority, if I may use first names, Sam, Brendan, Michael, Nessa and Annette; and the assistant commissioner and deputy commissioner. Last but by no means least, I thank Ms Susan Gray, chairperson of PARC. At times we have had robust and sobering debate but it was constructive. We all want the same outcomes. As Chair, the benchmark for monitoring progress over the next weeks and months and keeping in touch with all of you are the ten asks in Ms Gray's opening statement, particularly the disqualified driver piece. A real priority is the learner permit loophole. What is on record today is that the RSA will come back to this committee following the completion of what I think is called a scoping exercise. Does Mr. Walsh want to clarify something?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept that. I want to establish that when the RSA is in a position to take on this additional capacity, it is not a barrier to the Minister signing and giving an effective date to the regulation. Of course that is a decision for the Minister. We had previous meetings with the RSA. We talked at length about its action plan. Notwithstanding the concerns of Deputy Shane Moynihan, the average waiting time is down to between nine and ten weeks. We talked about this in March or April. That was the trigger for dealing with the learner permit loophole. I stress it is a priority. I will hold the Minister and the RSA to account. Please come back to me with the results of this scoping exercise, so we can get a proper understanding of when the RSA will be in a position to take on that additional capacity. I fully accept what Dr. Walsh said. Ultimately, it is a decision for the Minister. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and all of us want the same outcomes.