Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Apologies have been received from our Chair, Deputy George Lawlor, and Senators Eileen Flynn and Joe O'Reilly.

I ask anyone who is attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On the agenda of today's meeting is an engagement with the National Traveller Women's Forum to discuss children protection and family support. Our witnesses are Ms Sandra McDonagh, chair, and Ms Maria Joyce, co-ordinator. They are both very welcome. I invite Ms Joyce to make an opening statement and then we will proceed with questions and answers from members.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I would like to start by thanking the committee for the opportunity to speak here today. I am the co-ordinator of the National Traveller Women’s Forum, NTWF, which is the national network of Traveller women and Traveller women’s organisations from across Ireland. As a representative organisation, we engage in policy forums at national and international level to ensure that the needs, concerns and issues affecting Traveller women are understood and addressed.

We have been asked to talk on the issues impacting the Traveller community related to child protection and family support. The protection of Traveller children and young people and the fulfilment of their needs are paramount for the community, and the Irish State has a legal and constitutional duty to protect all children. It is important to understand both the historical context and systemic challenges that continue to face the community. The 1963 Report of the Commission on Itinerancy stated that the forced separation of Traveller children from their parents was an oft proposed "solution of the itinerant problem". To quote from the report, this was "based on the belief that a separation of parents and children would result in the children growing up outside the itinerant life and that thus in one generation the itinerants as a class would disappear." The starting point of attempting to understand the deep fear of State child protection services must begin here and must also acknowledge the grave injustices that were committed against Traveller children and their families. We cannot forget the deeply ingrained racism that Irish Travellers have faced, and continue to do so, and how this informed policy development.

Up-to-date data concerning Traveller children in care or Traveller families engaging with family services and or family courts is not readily available, but it is acknowledged by the services and from the experience and work of local Traveller organisations that Travellers are over-represented in care settings. While Traveller children represent less than 1% of the total population, an internal Department of children study from 2019 found that 12% of children on Tusla’s child protection notification system register were Travellers. While we are informed that efforts are being made within Tusla to move towards an ethnic identifier in line with the public sector duty in their gathering of data, no ethnic identifier is currently being applied consistently across the organisation.

When Traveller children leave care settings, they often face a profound loss of cultural identity, leading to feelings of shame, isolation and stigma. Kinship care, where a child is looked after by a relative, is a vital and deeply embedded practice within the Traveller community's extended family structure. While Tusla has increased its emphasis on kinship care and provided targeted resources through the National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy, NITRIS, to boost foster families so that more placements can be made within the family or the community, much work remains to be done. According to HIQA reports, a significant gap still exists, and we are interested to hear Tusla's plans to improve these efforts.

Building trust between Tusla and the Traveller community is essential to fulfilling Tusla's core mandate. While we acknowledge some of the positive steps - like the national working group, local collaboration with Traveller-led initiatives and the work with family link workers - this proactive engagement must be sustained across all levels of Tusla. This shift from a purely reactive approach requires a systemic, top-down commitment to ensuring real, lasting impact for Traveller children and their families. Child protection and family support work with the Traveller community must be grounded in an understanding and respect for Traveller culture, family structures and ethnic identity. This involves creating a model where the Traveller community is not just a recipient of services, but a partner in their design and delivery.

We need to immediately implement a system to collect and publish disaggregated data on the ethnicity of children entering, within and leaving the care system. This should use a human rights approach of self-identification to enhance the availability of child protection statistics specific to Traveller children, and also to reflect experience and ensure more effective monitoring.

We are calling for mandatory training on anti-racism and cultural competence to be provided for all staff and contracted professionals in child protection and family support, and for increased investment in preventative, community-based family support programmes in partnership with Traveller organisations. We need to implement and resource targeted initiatives to recruit and support more members of the Traveller community to become social workers, foster carers and family support workers. The State urgently needs to address the wider issues of racism and socio-economic disadvantage impacting the Traveller community, through implementing the recommendations of the National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy and improving the delivery of public services for the Traveller community including accommodation, education, healthcare and employment.

We also recommend that the committee speak to Travellers who have had direct experience of the care system and engage with local Traveller organisations to deepen their understanding of both current and historical issues. We stand in solidarity with Travellers who have called for an apology for neglect and harm caused by the State.

Again, I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this statement. We have submitted a more detailed paper that has been circulated and we are both happy to answer any questions that members have.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Ms Joyce. I will take questions from members now.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McDonagh and Ms Joyce for being here with us this afternoon. I acknowledge that there is a more detailed submission paper in addition to what Ms Joyce has just contributed. I will probably start at the end. I am interested to hear the witnesses' views on more Travellers taking up roles and responsibilities within the Tusla system, for example working as social care workers or family liaison officers. I ask them to comment on the need to create such roles and ensure they are filled.

Ms Maria Joyce:

It is something we have long called for in other spaces and other submissions on this issue. All childcare services are directed at Travellers to the point that there is an over-representation, as I flagged in my submission. I do not know whether I made that point in my opening statement. My submission sets out that according to the limited data available:

While Traveller children represent less than one percent of the total population, an internal Department of children study from 2019 found that 12 percent of children on Tusla’s Child Protection Notification System Register were Travellers.

Therefore, we know there is a gross over-representation within the care system. Tusla itself knows that. We sought the current statistics before we came here, but they were not available. We looked at the online reporting systems but we could not extract numbers, even in the context of Traveller children. When we were before the previous committee on the special interests of Travellers under the chairmanship of Senator Flynn, the statistic being floated by Tusla was that 6% of its caseload comprised Traveller children. By comparison, less than 1% of the population are Travellers.

The programmes within the Tusla support and care system in this area are not designed in conjunction with Travellers, and Travellers are not employed within the system, but they are targeting Traveller families and Traveller children. It is vitally important that there are more roles for Travellers as social workers and care workers, and Travellers in other roles within Tusla across the system, right to the top levels. We would argue it is important that direct engagement with the community by senior staff in Tusla, including senior social workers, is preventative and not crisis intervention.

We echo the calls that have made in the past for initiatives to make this happen. A number of years ago, Tusla matched third level grants where Travellers were in social care or in social work. That was an important initiative, but we need more of that. We need a more sustained targeted approach. Just as we are looking at the HEIs and the Higher Education Authority putting in place quotas in relation to Travellers in third level, Tusla needs to start looking at seeking to have quotas in terms of staff at all levels of the organisation. Targeted supports and measures are needed to make that happen.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

I totally agree with Ms Joyce. As the committee probably knows, I am a social worker. I am one of the very few Traveller social workers in the country. There is a total mistrust when it comes to families engaging with social workers, particularly in relation to Tusla. Tusla would be recognised as just wanting to take children into care and that is where the mistrust is.

I am a mental health social worker. When I started there 13 years ago, at a team meeting in my local organisation the team were trying to come up with what they were going to call me. First, they did not want to use the term "social worker". Second, there was a huge stigma around mental health. They were coming up with all these weird and wonderful names. We eventually said that we needed to stop and, in the interests of breaking down the barriers and supporting the community, name it as it is. That has been a huge success. I was known as a "mental health social worker". Within a couple of years, the trust in the organisation got out into the community and people were banging on the door looking for support from their social worker. They were engaging with other services, stating that they had a social worker. It is changing. This is good in Offaly, where I work, but around the country there still is a huge stigma and mistrust within the services, unfortunately. There could be many more reasons for that. The first reason is children being taken into care, but I suppose the second reason is cultural competency and cultural awareness. I have seen it at first hand when working with other organisations and with Tusla. I would have many examples of bias and a lack of cultural awareness when it comes to Traveller children and working with Traveller families. There would be a number of reasons.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Tusla launched an apprenticeship model of social work two years ago. I am wondering - I do not have the figures - how many came from the Traveller community through this apprenticeship model. Can the value of that model be seen within the community? How could a person from the Traveller community be supported to take up an apprenticeship within Tusla? It is done out of University College Cork. It is done with Tusla in Cork.

Ms McDonagh used the word "trust". Is there a fear piece as well as a trust piece? Is it a question of trust, fear and lack of understanding?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Absolutely. On the Senator's first question, there is huge interest in the social work apprenticeship but the problem is that it is in Cork. The number of Travellers in other areas who will go that far is limited. They have to travel to Cork. There is expense with that and everything else. We had a couple of local people who were very interested in doing it but when they had to attend University College Cork, that was an issue. If it was made more national and if it was rolled out in that way, it would be more widely availed of.

I agree that there is fear and mistrust. It all boils down to years ago, when Travellers recognised the social worker as the cruelty man. It goes back to that. It is hard to get Travellers to see the good in the work that can be done. I suppose they see social workers just as coming in to remove children. It is a question of moving past that. We are getting there, I suppose, in Offaly. I am a social worker and we have another social worker in situ. It is normal now in Offaly, I suppose. We can move past that, but there is a huge fear across the country.

Ms Maria Joyce:

Can I add to that point? Getting past that with the supports that are in place in the Offaly Traveller Movement in terms of social work has been key in that area. The fear that is still there is not for fear's sake alone. It is a direct result of the system in terms of its historical context, but also in terms of its contemporary nature. Every child in the State has a right to be protected. We are not in any way arguing against that but when we look at the over-representation of Traveller children, we know from examples that you could ask if it was a welfare issue as opposed to a child protection issue, bearing in mind the higher levels of unemployment, the poorer socioeconomic backgrounds, the lack of accommodation and the disproportionate numbers of Travellers in homelessness. We still have hundreds of Traveller families living without basic services because local authorities are not implementing their accommodation programmes at the rate they need to, particularly when it comes to Traveller-specific accommodation.

We have overcrowded, substandard Traveller-specific accommodation as well. Social workers are coming in who are not coming from a culturally competent understanding of the culture with respect for diversity and there is bias, unconscious or otherwise. Let us be really frank and name it for what it is - underpinned by racism and systemic racism. Children are more at risk of being taken into care. We are not saying that families might not need some support, but if those supports were put in place and the agencies responsible for delivering supports and services did what they are supposed to do in the context of Traveller families, we would see less children from Traveller families in the care system. In the same way, we would see less young people from the Traveller community in Oberstown because we have over-representation there, as we have in the wider prison system.

We work with Traveller women in the Dóchas Centre. We are one of the organisations supporting Barnardos in relation to the supports for Traveller mothers in prison. They are looking at the issue of Traveller women in prison whose children are in care and trying to create connections back with their children and trying to support Traveller women while in prison and when they come out of prison to engage with social services and Tusla so that they will have more relationships with their children and have their children back in their homes.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. I had a number of questions. The witnesses have not answered them but have diverted me to other things I want to say to them. Ms McDonagh and Ms Joyce have provided the answers for the questions we are asking. We are trying to deal with the issues outlined in their submission and the longer one we received earlier. We need to recruit more Traveller people into the services. The cruelty of man was raised earlier. I was talking to people in Limerick about that on Monday. It was not just the Traveller community, it was others who were brought to institutions and the historical stuff that is there from that. Ms McDonagh has explained how transformative her being from a Traveller community and being a social worker is for her area. That needs to be replicated.

One of the questions I was going to ask is the statistics they outlined in terms of Travellers being over-represented in the care system. They are very stark, in fairness. A total of 12% of children are on the Tusla child protection notification system, despite being less than 1% of the population. The previous committee was referred to. I think somebody said it was 6% the last time. Do we know why that doubled since that time? Is it more reporting or what? Do the witnesses feel there is a targeting of the Traveller community by State organisations, or are there other reasons why the figures are so high? Why is it 12% when the children only represent 1%?

Ms Maria Joyce:

I think we have already outlined some of those reasons. It is where an institution engaging with a community is already biased before there is any direct engagement or where an agency does not understand or have respect. I am not saying there are not some improvements there and some efforts to try to address some of that, but we are still working with an institution that has staff who do not fully comprehend the way of life and the cultural diversity and have a respect for it. Staff is engaging with families where there is bias, conscious or unconscious.

We also have that distinction as to what is a welfare issue as opposed to a child protection issue and what supports are required to support children in the home or in the community rather than taking them into the care system. We have examples of where some demands by Tusla social workers engaging one-to-one with families in crisis create a situation where the children have to be taken into care. If there are substance or addiction issues, both parents have to undertake that support at the same time and then there is no one to look after the children or keep the family home. Higher levels of poverty and the lack of delivery of services appropriate to the community all factor in on the perspectives of an agency that should be looking at a more intense support within the family and the community and the wraparound supports for that. Yes, where a child needs to be taken out for a child protection issue, absolutely. We would not be saying otherwise, but we know that children are in the care system who, with more direct and intense support to the family and the community, could stay with the family unit.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I go back to the comment Ms Joyce made about needing more members of the Traveller community as social workers, foster carers and family support workers. I know Senator Rabbitte referenced the apprenticeship scheme they were doing in Cork, which obviously has the problem of being just in Cork. That is no disrespect to Cork or whatever. Could the witnesses give me any idea of what resource initiatives they would consider we need to have to attract more members of the Traveller community to get involved in these roles?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

When we are talking about an apprenticeship, we have a pre-apprenticeship course that we have now run in Tullamore and Offaly. A number of years ago, we identified the gap of young people that need to be trained up and try to get back into education. We started up the pre-apprenticeship programme locally. We had it launched last year as the first-ever Traveller-specific pre-apprenticeship programme in the country. Every year, we have a waiting list of about 20 young people who are really looking to-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the one in Cork?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

No, it is the one with Offaly Traveller Movement. It is a pre-apprenticeship in general for general learning, but we have a very good relationship with Tús, which is now doing social work. If it was more local, there would be huge encouragement. The support that our organisation could give them would help.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Tús has a campus in Limerick as well so I would be interested in seeing that. It does a very good access to apprenticeships, not necessarily for Travellers but for everybody.

Ms Maria Joyce:

It is a matter of the roll-out of these really positive initiatives across the country. The apprenticeship programme in conjunction with Cork is really welcome, but it is in one location. While it is welcome, it is not going to capture the breadth of the country when it is in one location. It is about looking at a more targeted approach from the national perspective. We even see, from the HIQA reports we referred to in the bigger submission we sent in, that some of the areas are looking at the foster care system. Some of the localities have started to do some work in terms of increasing Traveller families in that space, but there are big gaps in that as well in other locations. HIQA has identified that across a number of reports. This will require a sustained approach. You cannot eradicate generations of intergenerational disadvantage, poverty and systemic racism in a short-term response. It is looking at a significant approach from a national perspective at recruitment stages and all levels of Tusla.

It is also about engagement with the community with all levels of Tusla as it exists. In many of the situations, it is at crisis point when Tusla is engaging with families, where there is huge fear as well, whereas that preventative approach with engagement with some of what we have spoken about, such as senior social workers engaging with the community and with families prior to crisis, building trust and building relationships will be significant. Unless we start to see that in a more sustained way, we are still going to have situations where too many of our children will be in a care system that does not actually value or recognise in the absolute holistic way that they need to where Traveller children are coming from. We point to when children are coming out of the care system who have not had the engagement.

We have seen evidence of young adults coming out of the care system - they have grown up in it and some of them have been well cared for by settled families - who do not identify as a settled person but also do not identify as a Traveller because they have been removed from the community. That is not satisfactory and should not be acceptable to the State. The only way to address that is through comprehensive measures, both within the recruitment process and in the way in which the service is delivered and engages with families and by ensuring more family supports are provided to keep the children in the community without having to live in risk.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation. It is a very interesting debate.

One of the things I am particularly sensitive to is where the line is between welfare and a child safeguarding issue. Viewing that through a fresh perspective came for me through being a school principal. School principals and school staff in general will always err on the side of referring to Tusla with a child safeguarding concern. That is because of the children first legislation which makes it a criminal offence for a school principal or school teacher to ignore that or to be seen to have ignored that. The issue has to be considered from that perspective as well.

In my professional experience, I have come across the resistance to social work support among the Travelling community that Ms Joyce outlined very well. She also outlined how it has come to that and why it is the case.

Going back to the role of the school principal, in a general sense, have the witnesses found the children first legislation to be beneficial since it was introduced and since the child safeguarding procedures were developed in schools? I am deciphering some concern about it but in terms of the welfare, well-being and safeguarding of children, do the witnesses acknowledge that the legislation has been beneficial?

The over-representation of Traveller children in the care system is also very interesting. Ms Joyce put very well why it is occurring. The lack of appropriate investment in preventative community-based family support in partnership with Travelling organisations is the underlying reason. Another thing that concerns me is how it is presenting. How is it presenting that children are having to be referred, notwithstanding that lack of investment and appropriate care? Do we have data on that? Are we dealing with issues of addiction, mental health concerns or issues of gender-based violence? How is it presenting that children are being referred to the services?

Ms Joyce made a very good point on implementing targeted initiatives to increase access to kinship care in the Travelling community. Could we get some examples of what types of targeted initiatives or supports could be provided in that sphere?

The other recommendation the witnesses made in the longer presentation was for direct engagement with adult Travellers who have been in the care system, whether in mainstream or segregated settings. Regarding health support offered to those adult Travellers, or even children if they are coming out of the care system, is there enhanced health support available and do the witnesses find the health system has been beneficial in that area?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

I can look at the first piece around the children first legislation and safeguarding. We are mandated persons and we absolutely would report. What we have found in the past number of years, and I can only speak for Offaly, is that we have a really good relationship with Tusla. We have seen huge progress in the work we do with Tusla but that comes back to the team in Tusla engaging with us as an organisation. We also have two social workers, so we are on par. There are Traveller-specific initiatives funded by Tusla that are Traveller led within our organisation. We are rolling them out but Tusla is heavily supporting this. It is involved in the whole process and it is working really well. That is when you look at the targeted initiatives. What was the other piece?

Ms Maria Joyce:

It was on enhanced health supports. I cannot answer in any definitive way on whether I am aware of enhanced health supports. I have a sense that there probably are not but it is something we could check. If you are looking at enhanced health supports, one of those areas should be counselling supports. We know that other than the Traveller counselling service, which has a national remit but is resource-limited, wider counselling services and psychiatric supports are not culturally competent.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

We in Offaly have the only Traveller-specific mental health service. It is called "Travelling to Wellbeing." I was involved in the design and delivery of that going back to 2013. That is now funded by the Department with responsibility for mental health and is a huge success. We are trying to roll it out nationally.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It sounds like something other locations should be following.

Recognising fully the lack of investment, support and co-operation with Traveller organisations, we have an over-representation of Traveller children being referred to care services. How is that presenting?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Without giving any identifying information, throughout my career living in Offaly and before we really developed and progressed our relationship with Tusla, I would have been involved in some very serious cases where children would have been taken into care but, thankfully, were not. That was through my engagement with Tusla, my intervention, the family support and, in certain circumstances, challenging Tusla on why. Some of it was basically down to bias or a lack of cultural awareness. Those families where the children did not end up going into care survived through it and have become healthy adults. There was no reason they should have gone into care.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McDonagh is confident the outcome was more successful than it would have been if the children had been put into care with Tusla.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Absolutely. A prime example of what I am talking about involved three children who were going to be separated from their family and the parents did not realise, until they brought it to my attention, that they had voluntarily given their agreement that the children would go into care. The children were going to be separated into three different homes but that did not happen. We worked very closely with Tusla and those children. They are now coming into adulthood and were never separated from their family.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to delay, Chairperson. Again, schools and any mandated person have to refer if they consider that a child has been exposed to or is at risk of sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect or emotional abuse. In the over-representation of Travellers in the care system, are the referrals based on concerns about welfare issues?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

What happens there sometimes is that there is not enough family support mechanisms going into the families.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I recognise that.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

That is the problem, so situations can escalate.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Would those situations involve addiction or alcohol abuse?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Absolutely.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I am sure they can be involved in those situations and we would not be advocating for anything else if there is an issue. However, it is then about distinguishing what is a welfare issue and what support is required for the family to keep the children in the home, as opposed to it being an intervention that takes them out of the home. I will give the committee one example. We were in a space recently where there was some discussion around violence against women and women were speaking about their experiences. One woman spoke about her fear of seeking support for domestic violence because she had children. She knew from her previous experience and from other Traveller women that when they went in, it instantly became a case of the social worker coming into contact with the child. It is the women's fear of that and the risks that can be associated with it.

There was a settled woman speaking about her experience of domestic violence and seeking supports for domestic violence. She had children but she was never approached when she sought the support of the domestic violence service. There was never an intervention with the social worker and her children. As soon as the couple of Traveller women who were speaking about their experiences made contact with the service they were asked whether they had children and advised they would have to connect with the social worker. That is a bias that informs the thinking. There were children in that settled woman's home who did not have to interact with a social worker but as soon the services knew it was a Traveller woman the children had to interact with the social worker. That bias and interaction are factors in the over-representation of Traveller children in care. The State care system has failed settled people as well in terms of its institutional past and also currently we see examples emerging about settled children in the care system being failed in a phenomenal way, just as Traveller children are. It is not a specific strategy. In terms of the population more Traveller children are within the care system who should not be there if the supports were put into the community and the family, if preventative measures were put in place and if there was comprehensive training from a cultural competency, anti-racist perspective in terms of how staff, particularly young people who are not aware of or do not understand the culture and the way of life and do not bring the same respect to the engagement as they might in terms of the wider settled community. All of those reasons impact. I strongly encourage the committee to bring Tusla in here. I strongly encourage members to ask questions in relation to its data gathering, because what is there falls far below par in terms of what is needed and particularly when it is not coming at it from an ethnic identifier that is underpinned by a human rights approach in terms of self-identification.

That is not just about the numbers entering or leaving the care system. It is about all of the layers underneath in terms of the supports, resources, the monitoring and targeting spaces where Tusla could look to reduce these numbers based on knowledge. We also encourage the committee to ask Tusla questions about the area of how it, as a service, as a State agency, would look to have a proactive approach to a more diverse staff from top to bottom. Another issue that we put in our bigger paper is the investigation into over-representation of Traveller children in care. We also have seen segregated provision in this country in relation to Travellers in the education system where we still have a Traveller-only school being operated. We see it with Travellers in segregated institutions in the care system and see the damage and harm done in that space alongside the wider institutional spaces. It is important to dig down into those layers and the impact that has had on the continuing, real fear of families. There are grandparents looking after children. Tusla knows those families are there but those families will not seek supports because they do not want to bring a social worker to their door. The kids are being really well looked after but there are supports and resources that they could and should avail of but because of the wider fear they do not seek them.

We have seen cases where grandparents have sought support and children have ended up in care when they were being fairly well cared for by grandparents. Those are some examples of which we are aware on an anecdotal basis about the fear that stops parents, grandparents or wider family members from accessing supports.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Based on that input I propose that we invite Tusla to come before us.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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That is a good suggestion.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The last thing I asked was on the proposed targeted initiatives to increase access to kinship care. Have we any solid examples of what could be done?

Ms Maria Joyce:

Under the National Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy Tusla has a foster care programme that it has been resourcing for the past number of years to try to build more Traveller foster carers in the community. However, it is not running very long. It needs a sustained approach and effort and additional resources as well in terms of building that up in the way it needs to.

Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Joyce for her opening statement. I thank Ms McDonagh and I know the great work she is doing with the Offaly Traveller Movement. We have been on a couple of committees together. I recognise, as she said earlier, that she has a very good relationship with Tusla. She also has a very good relationship and great working relationship with most or all of the bodies in County Offaly which is fantastic.

When talking about access to education Ms McDonagh stated earlier the fact that the social care education is in Cork and unfortunately is inaccessible for some of the people in Offaly who want to access it. Would it be possible to do online courses as opposed to actually having to go down to the college? I understand about social care, but there are other aspects and bodies that interact with Traveller groups in Offaly and the jobs in those areas as well. Education is huge. What are the particular challenges for Travellers to access and to stay in education? How can schools better support Traveller families to ensure equal opportunities? What role do Traveller groups have to play in encouraging and supporting education for children and young adults who want to go on to further education?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

I could give a really good example. A lot of work has been done in the past number of years on a partnership piece with University of Galway, the four midland Traveller organisations which are Longford, Westmeath, Laois and Offaly and Exchange House in Dublin. Huge resources and supports were put in to allow Travellers to take part in a level 7 diploma in community development. It ran over two years. CAMHS was also involved. The classes were held locally in Tullamore and the lecturers came up. Other supports were put in place for that also. At the end of it 22 Travellers graduated with a level 7 diploma from University of Galway the year before last. It was a huge success. They had two or three days actually in the university but the course was done outside of it. Extra supports were put in place for the Travellers who needed extra literacy help, through the Laois Offaly Education and Training Board, LOETB. It was a great success, with 22 adult learners, over the age of 21.

Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is fantastic. I always ask students and young people who come to me and talk about doing college courses and recommendations, can you get a job afterwards and is there something out there for them. How successful were those people in getting employment from the engagement?

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Some got outside employment but some of them are employed in the Traveller organisations.

Ms Maria Joyce:

Can I come in there? If you look at the high levels of unemployment among Travellers, education may be one part of that. However, there is also wider racism and discrimination within employers. I am sure groups have been before the committee here highlighting some of those barriers and issues including racism in relation to access to the wider employment market for Travellers. It is a barrier.

I will also touch on some of those wider challenges and barriers in relation to education. We have had a history of segregation in relation to Travellers and the education system. Any of us who went through the education system in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s and up to the 2000s very much experienced that history of segregation, whether in classroom settings or in the prefabs at the back of schools or even where whole schools themselves were Traveller only.

In the 1970s and 1980s, I experienced that segregated provision. It is not an exaggerated statement to make that the State has failed Travellers in relation to education. There are elements where that continues to happen. The still negative experiences of Traveller children in the education system directly impact whether they take on opportunities to complete second level and go into third level. The low expectations of Traveller children by teachers in the system - not all teachers but many teachers of Traveller children - also informs and influences the decisions they make. This is really important given the launch of the national Traveller and Roma education strategy by the Department just last year. We have spent decades as a national organisation alongside other national and local Traveller organisations trying to get the Department of Education to develop a Traveller education strategy. Much of that was blocked by individuals over the years. When there are good officials in there who actually want to do something, we had a strategy in a very short period. What is important now is the implementation of that strategy over the next number of years. Schools are instrumental. That is another area where we need more positive measures. We are seeing some measures in relation to Turn to Teaching to get Traveller and Roma teachers into the system but we need to see more of that. We also need to see what will keep them employed within the system. I have two teachers who recently qualified in my wider extended family. Both went into the system, one in secondary level and one at primary. They did not last because of the very negative experiences - the language and racism in the context of the language and how Traveller children were referred to were huge issues. They were deciding factors as to whether they were going to stay within the system as teachers. It is not only the importance of getting teachers into the system and Travellers into Tusla as an agency across all its strands including its social work element but also what measures are needed to keep it sustainable and keep them within the systems and in what they have trained to do.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McDonagh and Ms Joyce. I will probably touch on a few things they already said. When it comes to child protection or family support, the first thing is they must have proper accommodation. They must have proper housing and facilities. The record of local authorities is so bad when it comes to Travellers. They have not even spent money in certain cases. That could be for people with disabilities or children with disabilities. There seems to be a very bad record. I am curious about fostering in the Traveller community. Is most of the fostering outside of the Traveller community? That is something you would not like to see because families are being broken up or pulled away from their culture and the people they know. I am sure that is a big issue between Travellers and Tusla. From listening to the witnesses, there is no doubt there is a lot of friction between families and Tusla. That comes across.

The mental health issue has been huge in the Traveller community and the high rate of suicide. It seems still to be at a very high level. We do not seem to have made a major dent in it, whether it is very young children as in my own area. It is appalling that we do not seem to be making a dent. Will the witnesses give us an idea if any inroads are being made in that area? The proper assessment of children whether in schools by CDNTs or others is a big issue. Children are not getting assessed at the right age. Sometimes it goes beyond the age. By what the Government tells us, over six is too late and it should be done before six years of age. That seems to be very hit and miss. Will the witnesses tell us more about that?

My next question is about training in terms of Traveller families or others wanting to get trained as carers and social workers. Is there good uptake? If people want to do it and we are not able to recruit them or funding is not available, is there demand and plenty of people who can deliver this? That is another issue.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

I will go backwards because I remember that last item the Deputy spoke about regarding roles and jobs. We are working with the HSE in Offaly to try to roll out another kind of apprenticeship programme in line with the Laois and Offaly ETB and the HSE where people will be brought in for a number of positions in the HSE. They will be trained on the job and there will be jobs available to them. We are fairly early on but the commitment from the HSE and ETB is huge. In the community, we have had a number of people who are really willing to engage. I hope we will see it happen very shortly. It relates to the discrimination and stigma. Travellers will not avail of these things without the support of the likes of our organisation because of the trust in the organisation. There is huge trust in our local organisation. When we try to work with the local community and develop programmes or initiatives with them, there is a huge response. That might not be the case if it was a statutory organisation coming out with these ideas. They need the support of the local organisation, Traveller engagement and Travellers within the organisations.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I will add to that and try to cover a couple of other points the Deputy made. If the opportunities are created and supports as required - not everybody may need them - are put in place, you will get uptake. If that is sustained over a period, there will be uptake. Travellers have gone into third-level institutions since the 1970s and 1980s under not easy conditions. I went back as a mature student with a young son to Maynooth University and spent four years getting a degree in the early 1990s. There are other Traveller women who have gone in as mature students to try to access those avenues in third level. We see more and more that where opportunities are given, more transfer where young Travellers are getting through the second-level system into third level. We still need more supports from a wider perspective. Put them in place and create the opportunities and there will be uptake.

I echo a couple of the Deputy's points in relation to the suicide rate in particular. Travellers are living with appallingly high suicide rates. The statistics are probably way below what they are.

For Traveller women, it is six times higher than the national average while for Traveller men, it is seven times higher than the national average. Based on the data we are going on, which is outdated, 11% of Traveller deaths are based on suicide. When we look at the younger profile of suicides, this is more younger people dying than need to. If we look at some heartbreaking examples of suicide in the community involving very young children, we can see that it is indicative of a system that is failing them. One of the things I did not mention when I spoke about the wider education piece is the bullying that takes place in educational settings not just from their settled peers but from teachers as well or the lack of action or accountability around it. That is a significant issue. I cannot sit here and say for definite because the data has not been collected in a disaggregated way from an ethnic perspective but I would imagine that care leavers are caught within that trap in terms of higher suicide rates. Unless we have the proper data to be able to look at proper responses and supports, that will increase. Suicide rates are coming down in the wider settled society but they are going up in the Traveller community. This is telling us that something is very wrong. It is not the community that is at fault for that. It is the wider lack of infrastructure and support. The Deputy spoke about accommodation and how critical that is, particularly when one is looking at it from a welfare perspective. We are looking at overcrowded conditions, disproportionate numbers in homelessness services and lack of Traveller-specific provision. For over 20 years, year on year, local authorities have been failing to deliver their targets for Traveller accommodation programmes when their targets did not even meet the need to begin with, never mind projected needs where the needs of young people would be captured.

There are more foster parents in the settled community with whom Traveller children are being placed. They are being treated well but it is outside their culture and way of life. If that resource was turned into the community in terms of trying to keep it a community-based response and supports within the wider family, it would be money well spent in the context of keeping children within their own culture and way of life.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Ms Joyce. I would like to see it kept within the community, particularly when it comes to fostering because it is too serious an issue and has a tremendous impact on families. I am not criticising foster families. They are really good but it is the wrong road to go.

Ms Maria Joyce:

Regarding assessments and delays, particularly in school settings, we all recognise that there are delays for any child in a school setting who needs an assessment so this is also an issue for Traveller children. This area really needs to be looked at across the board. Regarding children with disabilities, it involves all of those intersectionalities. We know that a Traveller child with a disability will face additional barriers. It is the same for any ethnic minority or children from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. Assessments for children most at need and most at risk are probably furthest from them. I know this meeting is about child protection and well-being in that space but reduced timetables continue to deny Traveller children or children with disabilities because they are the ones at whom they are most targeted. Again, this is the State denying a child's right to a full education and the opportunities this affords in later life.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses think DEIS schools have worked particularly well for the Traveller community or families under pressure? Have they ever assessed how good they are. DEIS plus is coming up. I am curious to hear witnesses' thoughts on that.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I know Senator Maria Byrne has to depart.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am chairing at 2 p.m. so would Deputy Ellis mind if I asked one or two questions?

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North-West, Sinn Fein)
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Work away.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Could I get the witnesses' comments on mental health because I know Deputy Ellis referred to it? It is an area about which I have serious concerns. Also, we have school intervention but we also have early intervention from age zero to six. Is that working and if so, is it working in different places? Is it restricted in some areas?

Another question concerns the school retention rate. While it is very good in some schools, it is not in others. Everything else I wanted to ask about has already addressed.

Ms Sandra McDonagh:

Those three areas go back. I can reflect on the Traveller-led initiatives in place. There is a Traveller-specific mental health service in Offaly, called Travelling to Wellbeing, which is funded by the Department of Health. This service was reviewed this year. We will be having an event marking ten years of it in November. The review was carried out by an independent researcher funded by the HSE National Office for Suicide Prevention. That really shows the improvements in mental health.

Ms Maria Joyce:

That shows what can happen in a space where there are those targeted supports and resources and shows the positive outcomes there can be there for that. That is in the midst of a wider Traveller mental health crisis. Those higher suicide rates are not coming out the air. They are a direct result of a wider mental health crisis. I make the point strongly that counselling supports and wider therapy supports are not there in a meaningful way for the majority population, never mind for an ethnic minority where the cultural understanding in terms of those services is not there. We have long called for a Traveller mental health strategy. The previous programme for Government had a Traveller mental health strategy but it did not get delivered in the lifespan of that Government and it has still not been delivered. We are starting to see a bit more interest in it but we need that very targeted strategy to look at that wider crisis.

Senator Maria Byrne mentioned the school retention rate. We know there are significant issues regarding equality of outcomes in terms of access, participation and outcomes from education. At one point, we had 100% transfer rates from primary to second level. Covid has affected that. The downturn in the economy stripped out a lot of resources for Traveller children.

We do not have 100% transfer rates from primary to second level. We also have a significant drop-off rate after the junior certificate. There are still huge efforts. We hope that, with the implementation of actions under the Traveller and Roma education strategy, schools will look at addressing that crisis. It is easy to see why children who have a very negative experience of education do not want to stay within the system. We are starting to see more Traveller children completing second level, although not enough, and some then go directly into third level. More of that is needed, however. We need more opportunities and supports to keep Traveller children in school, having positive experiences of education and thriving as opposed to trying to hide their very identity and who they are to try to survive the system. That is what is still happening to many of our Traveller children within the education system.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise to Ms Joyce and Ms McDonagh. The public accounts committee has a meeting at the same time so I am trying to double-job. As a matter of interest, Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, was before that committee today. It is relevant to what we are discussing here today as regards child welfare and so on. I would be interested in hearing the witnesses' views on the Travelling community's experience of interaction with Tusla. We just had that agency before the public accounts committee discussing various issues. It is very relevant to the witnesses as well.

Ms Maria Joyce:

We spoke at length earlier about the mistrust and lack of meaningful direct relationships between the community and Tusla. Tusla is making efforts. It has a national working group on engagement with the community under NTRIS. There are some resources or supports for some local Traveller organisations, although nowhere near enough. We also talked about the importance of engagement by Tusla with the community as a preventative measure rather than at a crisis point. While there are some initiatives, there are nowhere near enough. Much more needs to be done to build trust and relationships and to break down the very real fear the Traveller community has of Tusla and its interventions where so many Traveller children are in care. We must consider the historical context of children being taken out of families simply because they were a Traveller family on the roadside. Ms McDonagh spoke about the cruelty men and the fear that generated and still generates. It is not just about historical fears; there are contemporary issues, barriers and challenges in respect of what we have on the ground at the moment. While some efforts are being made, it needs to go much further. I will not go into this in detail on this point again because we have already gone into it but it is important that Tusla take a very targeted approach to a more diverse workforce, which should include Travellers, at all levels including the senior social work level. It must engage with the Traveller organisations and with the community at that senior social work level to build relationships, trust and avenues of support that are not about children being put into care but about supporting families to keep children in the home and in the community.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise if that was discussed earlier. As I said, I was not party to that. What Ms Joyce is saying about the trust issue is very interesting. All too often these interactions occur on a negative footing. As Ms Joyce said earlier, it is very important to be more supportive and positive in those interactions. That is where the system falls down. There is interaction with Tusla when something goes wrong or when there has been a complaint or a report as opposed to proactive intervention to provide support to prevent matters becoming an issue. That is where the attention needs to be. I hear that loud and clear.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Before I ask Ms Joyce to respond, I note that we have asked Tusla to come before the committee. It would be useful to have a session with that agency.

Ms Maria Joyce:

That would certainly be interesting for us as well. We have highlighted a few areas that it might be particularly useful to ask Tusla some questions about. I am not saying everyone in the agency is biased. That is not what we are saying here. However, where there is bias, whether conscious or unconscious, underpinned by historical and contemporary racism, there will not be better outcomes for the community. That is what it boils down to. We are not for a second saying that a child who is at risk should be left at risk. What we are saying is that there is that Traveller children are grossly over-represented within the care system. To put this in context, minority groups across the globe, whether Aboriginal people in Australia, Mori in New Zealand, Roma across Europe or minorities in the US, are always over-represented in care systems, prison systems and youth detention centres. It is no different for Travellers. The blame for that is not on the community itself but on the systemic institutional racism and discrimination that imposes a system that does not reflect or respect that community.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question arising from the questions of Deputies Ellis and McGrath. It is about the other remit of Tusla in its educational welfare support office. Ms Joyce said that members of the community are increasingly completing second level education. We had Tusla's educational welfare support office before the committee very early in the lifetime of the committee and one of the points its representatives made was that one of the challenges they found in working with the community in general was that they could not work with children over the age of 16 because the legislation only permitted them to work with children up to the age of 16. I ask for a general observation on Tusla's performance in that area. Is this one of the reasons more children are completing secondary education? Would it be beneficial to increase the age to which Tusla is permitted to work with children to 18?

Ms Maria Joyce:

If the education system valued and respected Travellers, you would not need anything additional to get those kids through the system because they would be having positive experiences. The educational welfare officers and the supports they provide are important but more positive and better experiences within the whole school setting are really critical to the outcomes for Traveller children. While we are seeing more Traveller children transfer from second level into third level, it is nowhere near enough. We are still seeing too much off a drop-off between the junior certificate and completing the senior cycle. Those supports and resources are needed, but not from a policing perspective. If the whole school environment provided an inclusive and positive experience for Travellers, you would see more without any kind of policing effort being involved. Unless those supports are engaging with families and teachers have high expectations of the Traveller children in front of them, the increase in the number of Travellers finishing second level will be much lower than it needs to be.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Two points came to mind as Ms Joyce spoke. On the idea of a policing modus operandi, I come from the primary sector and I have to say, in fairness to the schools, I have not generally found that to be the case. It may be different as the children get older.

It might be more of a necessity then. That is the first point.

Ms Joyce pointed out that the junior certificate can be seen as a completion point that some people do not go beyond. That comes back to the point that that coincides with the age by which the child might no longer benefit from the educational welfare service. Would it be beneficial to increase that to 18, in recognition that it should not be operated in a manner whereby it is policing but offers support to make sure that the child completes their journey?

Ms Maria Joyce:

The actions outlined in the national Traveller and Roma education strategy, which was launched in December, are about a whole-school approach and all of those wider supports and resources under TESS to engage with the school and deliver on those actions in a real way. They are about Traveller children having a more positive experience right from early years, and early years opportunity as well because only about 70% of Traveller children are in early years as compared with over 90% of the wider settled society. If the approaches are got right from there through to further and higher education and create a more positive environment for Traveller children throughout the school system, it is not further "policing", for want of a better word, or punitive measures that you need. If there is more wrap-around support with the actions in the Traveller and Roma education strategy delivered by schools, we will see more positive outcomes right through to the senior cycle of second level education. I would strongly encourage any of the members who has any role or remit in ensuring we implement policy that values the Traveller child and the Roma child within the system in a respectful and caring way, and works with parents to get the child through system with strong and high expectations, to do so. It is about ambition for Traveller children within the system.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Ms Joyce and Ms McDonagh for their wonderful presentation. I allowed the conversation to flow there because it was important to get their views. They have provided us with quite an ambitious set of recommendations here as well that we will take into our work. It has been a fantastic session. I really appreciate their time, and that of the members.

With that, the committee stands adjourned until Thursday, 9 October, at 12.30 p.m.