Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Eoghan Kenny and Senator Dee Ryan.

Everyone is very welcome to the meeting. I ask those attending remotely to mute their microphones when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

On the agenda for today's meeting is a discussion on apprenticeships with the following witnesses. From Chambers Ireland, Mr. Ian Talbot, chief executive; Mr. Aebhric McGibney, director of public and international affairs; and from IBEC, Ms Meadhbh Costello, senior policy executive; and Ms Nichola Harkin, head of employment law services. You are all very welcome to the meeting. I call Mr. Talbot from Chambers Ireland to begin his opening statement.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today on behalf of Chambers Ireland and our nationwide network of member chambers. I am delighted to be joined by Mr. McGibney from Dublin Chamber today.

Apprenticeships are a cornerstone of Ireland’s skills and talent strategy. Over the past several years, the action plan for apprenticeships has delivered real progress: the establishment of the national apprenticeship office, strong growth in apprenticeship numbers and programmes, and a reduction in delays for off-the-job training. However, the migration of all craft and consortia-led apprenticeships into a unified system is still under way and we urge continued focus to complete this transition, while recognising the complexity and challenges to that transition.

Our members, representing thousands of businesses, large and small, consistently highlight the value of apprenticeships in addressing Ireland’s skills shortages, especially in critical sectors such as technology, life sciences, construction, and the green economy. Yet, they also identify persistent barriers that must be addressed if apprenticeships are to reach their full potential.

First, SMEs face significant administrative and practical challenges. We strongly recommend formalising the administrative transfer option, which allows companies to share apprentices and better manage curriculum requirements. This would make apprenticeships more workable for smaller businesses and help unlock new opportunities for talent development.

Second, the process for developing new apprenticeship programmes, particularly consortia-led models, remains too slow and inflexible. Businesses need a more agile system that can respond quickly to evolving market needs. We urge the committee to support reforms that streamline programme development and allow for greater adaptability in curricula, enabling firms to tailor apprenticeships to their specific requirements and to work with others to deliver specific components of programmes, leveraging individual specialties.

Third, visibility and accessibility remain key issues. Many businesses, especially SMEs, are unaware of the full range of supports available. We recommend that a portion of the National Training Fund surplus be used to enhance the branding, promotion and accessibility of apprenticeships, including the introduction of a training voucher scheme to support immediate upskilling needs.

Fourth, diversity and inclusion must be at the heart of the apprenticeship system. Female participation in apprenticeships remains low, and targeted outreach and bursaries are needed to attract more women and underrepresented groups into these pathways, particularly in STEM and emerging sectors. Childcare also has a key role to play here.

Finally, employer engagement is critical. We call for deeper dialogue between the Government, education providers and industry to ensure apprenticeships remain relevant, responsive and aligned with our future skills needs. The development of specialist centres of excellence for skills, particularly through education and training boards, can play a vital role in supporting SMEs and driving innovation. Additionally, administrative burden must be minimised and geographic regional needs must also be considered.

In summary, apprenticeships are vital to Ireland’s competitiveness, innovation and social cohesion as well as to addressing our critical infrastructure gaps. Chambers Ireland and our member chambers stand ready to work with the Government to build a system that is flexible, inclusive and future-proofed, delivering for learners, employers, career changers and the wider economy. The economic and skills world has never been moving so fast and we must be ever more agile.

I thank members for their attention. I look forward to their questions with my colleague Mr. McGibney.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

On behalf of IBEC, I thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak with them on the future of apprenticeships. I am a senior executive for education, skills and innovation policy at IBEC.

Apprenticeships are highly valued by both employers and apprentices as an opportunity to earn and learn while achieving in-demand qualifications. The introduction of industry-led consortia apprenticeships in 2016 was a game-changer as it unlocked new pathways to employment in an exciting range of industries. IBEC has strongly supported the development of the consortia model of apprenticeships by delivering programmes, including manufacturing engineering, manufacturing technician, polymer technician, laboratory, and retail, with further programmes planned. Much progress has been made to build the profile of apprenticeships under the current action plan for apprenticeships, which will come to an end this year.

During this time, the number of apprenticeship programmes has expanded from 60 to 77, with further programmes in development. The apprentice population has grown from almost 20,000 in 2021 to just under 30,000, with an increasing number of female apprentices in the community. However, there remains significant scope for improvement, which will be critical for building talent pipelines and achieving national objectives in areas such as housing and infrastructure delivery.

One of the most ambitious actions included in the action plan is the development of a single model of apprenticeship that would bring craft and consortia programmes into one system. While work is ongoing to move this project forward, there remain several unresolved issues, which must be addressed as part of any future apprenticeship system. These include the development of a new IT platform, clarifying roles and responsibilities within the apprenticeship system and improving the time it takes to develop and launch new apprenticeship programmes.

The most significant issue limiting the continued expansion of apprenticeships is the lack of adequate funding for the system. We must ensure that the necessary resources are in place to cater for the growing apprentice population and to prevent any further backlogs. This also includes establishing a funding mechanism that would recognise and support successful consortia programmes to scale nationally and cater to unmet demand.

A single model of apprenticeship also requires parity in how off-the-job training costs are treated in the system. Cost and time remain the biggest barriers to employers investing in workforce development. Increasing the incentive available to consortia employers in line with the supports available in the craft system will help to overcome these barriers and create more training places for apprentices overall. The significant surplus in the National Training Fund, NTF, is an opportunity to address these concerns and expand participation in apprenticeships. Employers contribute 1% of their payroll to the NTF to support workforce development in Ireland, amounting to more than €1 billion per year. At the end of last year there was almost €2 billion in surplus in the NTF. While IBEC warmly welcomes the commitment from the Government to draw down €1.5 billion of this surplus over the next six years, this is a temporary solution and does not prevent the further accumulation of unspent employer contributions in the fund. It is already predicted that an additional €3 billion could accumulate by 2030 if a permanent solution to unlocking the training fund is not found. This is an extremely concerning issue for industry at a time when eight in ten employers in Ireland are experiencing a skills gap, in turn undermining the competitiveness and productivity of Irish business. The proposed amendments to the National Training Fund Act will allow much-needed investment in education, training and research infrastructure, and equipment across the tertiary sector. It is also a timely opportunity to consider additional amendments that would maximise the impact of funds on lifelong learning and workforce development. That includes addressing issues that have been highlighted by both the OECD and, most recently, the National Skills Council, such as the introduction of a permanent solution to unlocking the NTF surplus, the creation of a transparent evaluation and monitoring framework for the fund and an enhanced voice for the employer in spending decisions and the strategic direction of the fund. This is an opportunity that should not be overlooked.

Once again, I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the view of the business community on the future of apprenticeships and we are happy to take any questions on the issues raised.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Costello. Our first speaker is Senator Harmon. I remind members that the clocks are not working so I will keep them in line.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. This is an important topic and it is important that we hear from their communities.

My first question is a general one about the accessibility of apprenticeships, particularly for people who might have caring responsibilities or other part-time responsibilities. How can apprenticeships be made more accessible in that regard?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

That is a very good question. It is a constant challenge. We refer to things like childcare as being an issue. Any of the other witnesses should be feel free to butt in here but time is critical, particularly for small businesses. Many of the recommendations we have come up with, including, for example, the ability to share curricula and things that, are all opportunities to tell people it is not just about where the skills and resources lie but where the time to do things is available. Many things keep coming back to a combination of childcare and how far away from opportunities people might be living. That is also a challenge. Opportunities for blended and online learning, as well as using the ETBs to broaden beyond their specific remit to help for the future, are critical.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Talbot. I do not know if anyone else wants to come in on that question. It ties in to my next question, which is how we get more women into apprenticeships. I know progress is being made. The childcare issue is a part of that, as it is for men. Do the witnesses have specific recommendations as to how to attract women?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

A number of bursaries are already in place but I am not sure how aware people are of the different supports they can access. There may be three different bursaries that people can access currently to support their entrance to apprenticeships. There is an access and inclusion bursary for people from underrepresented communities. There is a Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme also available, as well as an apprenticeship bursary for care-leavers, which was trialled in the past. Perhaps we can examine how to expand some of the supports that are available in those individual bursaries. I would also look at, for example, pre-apprenticeship programmes. An excellent programme was organised by TU Dublin. It had success in helping people from underrepresented communities, the homeless community, etc., to access apprenticeships. Expanding programmes such as that across our technological university sector would be welcome.

On female apprentices, we have seen some positive progress, particularly when we look at high-profile figures, such as the Rose of Tralee, who is an apprentice electrician. The national apprenticeship office has done a lot of good work in trying to reach out to secondary schools. It is about a cultural change. It may take a bit more time but promoting those high-profile figures within our apprenticeship system is key.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I am conscious of time so the following will be my final question. It is for IBEC, in particular. Ms Costello mentioned the National Training Fund. If we were to unlock all of that funding, speaking hypothetically, what would be the top three things that IBEC would do immediately? What does it see as urgent to address?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

It is welcome to see the fund unlocked but we would like to see a stronger employer voice on how it is spent. We would like to see some of the funding for apprenticeships invested in off-the-job training and covering those costs, particularly for SMEs that may not be able to carry that cost when they are employing an apprentice. We would also consider how to put in place scalable funding for successful consortia apprenticeship programmes. Currently, there does not seem to be a mechanism whereby successful programmes can scale and grow regionally and nationally. Beyond the apprenticeship system, we would like to see the introduction of a national training voucher scheme, whereby employers could work with the education and training sector to identify skills needs and use a voucher to invest in upskilling their workforce in critical areas of skills needs.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Costello spoke so fast without a mistake. It is a good thing. I was trying to breathe for her while she was speaking. I thank the witnesses for coming in and speaking.

On the National Training Fund, there are amendments out there. I have concerns and I wonder if the witnesses have, too. We hope the acquisition of lands and premises would be for premises if we need places for training. I do not think the National Training Fund is meant to be for the core funding of higher education institutions. If it is taken away from what it should be used for in order to plug core funding, I would have a concern, as well as in respect of research and innovation. Do the witnesses share those concerns?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

That is an important question. On the infrastructure side, there is a deficit in infrastructure investment across the tertiary sector. It is important that we see investment in laboratories, facilities and training centres that can increase capacity in the education and training sector overall. It is important we ensure that any investment aligns with the intended purpose of the National Training Fund Act, which is for the upskilling and the training of individuals. Certain investments outside that may not necessarily be appropriate for a training fund. We know there have been some proposals, for example, around the greening of tertiary infrastructure stock. While that is important, we think it would be more appropriate if the money came from a different fund because that does not necessarily align with the original purpose of the fund.

On the piece around higher education, there is an extremely high-quality higher education system in Ireland. It has supported our businesses to be more competitive and to grow in scale nationally. It is important that we continue that. We also have the Funding the Future paper and the Cassells report, which set out key areas of reform and growth for the sector. We would like the National Training Fund to be leveraged to bring about some of those transformations, which include improving access to lifelong learning and part-time learning, and improving skills training and the quality of the education sector overall. That is an important step that we would like taken next. We would also like a work programme or implementation plan that would align with that funding and what the strategy states.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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We also need more employer voices, as Ms Costello said, because that is where the funding is coming from. I like that we have gone from 20,000 to 30,000 apprenticeships.

Apprenticeships are the way to go in a lot of cases. We need apprentices for the construction deficit in the housing crisis that we have.

Apprentices have issues with housing. They cannot get housing themselves. What are the witnesses’ asks in that regard?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

We would like to see more targeted supports for individuals who are not able to access apprenticeships. We spoke about some of the bursaries that are already available and have been successful in getting underrepresented communities in. We also need to look at how to expand programmes that are currently available in one training centre or university but may not have a regional spread. We must look at some of those solutions. That probably goes back to the point we were making earlier about scaling up the successful consortia-led apprenticeships so that they are available in local communities across Ireland rather than being confined to individual institutions.

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

I wish to pick up on the thread of a couple of comments. First, in response to Senator Harmon - and it relates to housing as well – if issues of childcare and housing for an apprenticeship are solved, once the apprenticeship is over, those issues still persist. There are wider questions in that sense. From a Chambers Ireland perspective, we would like to see the current, massive increase in subventions and supports in early childhood education and on-site childcare facilities that have cut of the cost of childcare in recent years, where there is effectively a universal subsidy and then a means-tested subsidy, continued. That is important because it stops such supports being connected to a job or an employment. We want a universal solution. I have to confess that I am a personal beneficiary of those supports, so I have to declare my interest in that regard.

The same is true of housing. There are wider questions. It is the single biggest issue for every business. The availability of affordable accommodation, whether it is rental or purchase, is top of the agenda. We are very much looking forward to seeing the work of the accelerating infrastructure task force. We look forward to seeing the recommendations of Mr. Sean O’Driscoll’s group implemented. That is how we would like to see those issues tackled.

We must remind ourselves that childcare can sometimes be conflated. It is a parents’ issue, either for both parents or, if it is a single-parent family, for the one parent. We should not conflate the two issues. We would like to ensure that it is a solution that is understood for both men and women who are working in the workforce.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

As for the Deputy’s direct question on the National Training Fund being locked up, I am very concerned about that, even with the terminology of it being “locked up”. There is money going into it all the time. As Ms Costello said, it is heading for €3 billion. We should be looking to spend most of what comes in every year as it comes in. Some of this is about habit, that is, the habit of spending it. The private sector will respond if it knows there is a steady stream of funding coming for apprenticeships, training or whatever. The private sector will respond and build up capacity to deal with it. It is important to unlock it. I am not sure why it was ever locked in the first place.

The argument about university facilities is well made too. We know there are many things we need in this economy, but one thing that really strikes home to me at this moment in history is that people entering the workforce today are likely to have to change career multiple times. We do not know what is ahead. The speed at which things are moving is phenomenal. I was reading an article in The Economist over the weekend which talked about our use of Microsoft Copilot and ChatGPT instead of Google and the impact that has on advertising on the web. What does that mean for companies that have been focused on learning and drawing down vouchers to advertise on the web, for example? Do we need to find a different way of advertising? So much is happening so fast. People are going to have to move multiple careers and we are going to have to get better and better at lifelong learning and advertising to people. That may be a necessity. People will have to look at potentially multiple careers and prepare themselves for that.

In the context of the benefits of advertising, Dublin Bus is running a great campaign at the moment. It is very visible and highlights the issue. Sometimes, a good advertising campaign can contribute. There are so many things. There is no single solution to any of these things. We need to be doing a lot more, however.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The concern I have on NTF funding being used for core funding is that it could result in a deficit where there is not enough in the pot to cater for lifelong learning. Then you are robbing Peter to pay Paul, which is not right. There should be a separate fund for core funding.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in and for their contributions. It is great to hear the views of the employers in this because ultimately, apprenticeships are all about working with employers and providing the skills employers need today. I appreciate the insights the witnesses are all able to bring to this.

I have a number of questions, the first of which is to both IBEC and Chambers Ireland. In the area of apprenticeships, both organisations commented on how long it takes to get them approved, particularly the consortia-led apprenticeships. Do the witnesses have any insight as to why that takes so long in order to help us identify the blockages that we could perhaps address?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

Currently, there is a ten-step process in place for the approval and development of new apprenticeship programmes. At each of those phases, there is the opportunity for slight delays. It can take, on average, one year or one year and a half for the development of some programmes. For others, it can take years longer. For employers identifying a skills deficit at that stage, if it takes three years for the development of a programme and four years to put an apprentice through it, it means the curricula are potentially already out of date before they get the apprentice out. We would like to see how we could improve that ten-step process and maybe slim it down a bit without affecting the quality assurance aspects, of course.

We must also look at how we can improve communication with employers and prepare them before they go into the process so that they are aware of how the process works and that they have all of the information set out. We have experienced some delays related to employers who were unaware about how the process works. The more experienced consortia can move through the process a lot faster than newcomers to the process. We would like to see a more slimmed-down process, as well as stronger communication with those consortia who are coming forward to put proposals on the table so that this can never be a reason for delay.

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

To echo what Ms Costello said about the speed of adjustment, there is a similar issue with the way visas are allocated. We have a category for ICT, but not AI or something. ICT is too broad a category now for visas. The ability sometimes of the system to respond to the speed with which areas of education are developing needs to be sped up. Companies will be at the coalface and have a better idea of particular areas. They are then feeding back into the system to get a response.

There is a different way to think about this. While I am not endorsing any particular consortium by any means, I am aware that a previous committee, reporting to the Department of enterprise, suggested that we should have an apprenticeship for entrepreneurs. That is an interesting idea. It is a kind of a skill that we like to see. It was not a Government policy, just to cover any members. It was an idea that was fed into the system. How would something like that be delivered? If someone is working with their mum and dad in a shoe shop but they do not see their future there - maybe they want to be the next tech unicorn or whatever - it is trying to tie some of the traditional ways of linking it to an employment or an area. We need to be more flexible sometimes in the approach. My challenge, perhaps when others come into the group, is how we allow for different ways of thinking about a goal that we might all think is a good idea, such as entrepreneur apprentices.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The single model of apprenticeship has been welcomed. What are some of the witnesses’ recommendations if we were to start working on that? What are the first couple of things we would need to do to make that work?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

There has been considerable work ongoing by the national apprenticeship office and SOLAS to progress that action. A lot of it is more on the governance and quality assurance side. We just have a bit of uncertainty as to what the impact is going to be on the ground for both apprentices and employers regarding the roles and responsibilities of the consortia as part of this new model. They have also proposed the clustering of apprenticeships together.

We are a bit unsure as to how that is going to operate. We need more clarity. At the minute, we are seeing very successful apprenticeship programmes and we do not really understand why there would be a reason to cluster them together if they are already quite successful in their own right.

What underpins all this is a sustainable funding model. We currently have two separate types of funding models - for the craft and consortia-led apprenticeships, respectively - and this leads to discrepancies in the employer experience. One example is the off-the-job training and how that is covered. In craft, it is covered by the State whereas the employer has to continue paying the apprentice in the consortia model. We would like to see an increased incentive for the consortia employers, particularly SMEs, so that they can better cover the costs associated with leaving the apprentice out on training, the backfill and potentially the mentorship, etc. Our big suggestion around the single model is to have that sustainable funding model.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Do I have time for one more question?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We will come back to you in the second round, Deputy.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. A recent meeting in Waterford with the IBEC south-east regional executive was very enlightening in many aspects. It was great. Traditionally, we have looked down our noses at apprenticeships. There was a huge drive towards universities back 30 years ago. We are just realising now that we need to go back to basics and we need a lot of basic skills. As Deputy O'Connell pointed out, eight out of ten employers now have skills gaps. That is a huge number. I know one gap is in the area of housing, where there is a crisis, and in bus drivers. We have a massive crisis in the countryside with children not having bus places. One of the arguments coming back to us is that the companies do not have the drivers. They have to have specially trained drivers. That can be done through the education and training boards. I raised this issue before in Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, WWETB. This issue needs to be addressed with Bus Éireann as well. Do the witnesses agree that we need basic skills such as bus driving?

The housing crisis, which Deputy McGettigan mentioned, is the number one issue at the moment. Do the witnesses see any special areas where we need those skills? There is obviously a shortage of plumbers, electricians, builders and retrofitters. These are great career paths for a young person. There is very good money to be made in retrofitting now. The insulation works being done on houses offer a great job opportunity. Will the witnesses expand a little on that as it relates to the housing crisis?

There is also a shortage of funding for the apprenticeship fund in many ways. If we want to have lifelong learning, money needs to be put into that and part of the fund needs to be ring-fenced for lifelong learning. We all have to change. Becoming a TD, there is a lot of change from one's previous job. However, as regards making it more attractive, do the witnesses agree that the payment for apprentices may not be attractive enough for a lot of young people? In the countryside - for example, in Wexford and Wicklow which I represent - transport is sometimes a big challenge. If a young fella or girl wants to get to the centre in Waterford and is travelling down from Gorey, they need proper bus transport. We do not necessarily have a great public transport but even something like a voucher for travel or that type of a system would make it a bit easier.

Being a traditionally male domain, it is great to see more women becoming involved in apprenticeships. It was also great to see that the Rose of Tralee has an electrical background. We need to expand apprenticeship way beyond what we have. Germany has over 300 apprenticeships, including in banking and all types of advanced areas.

Do the witnesses agree on changing the payment model for young people to make it a bit more attractive, maybe with vouchers thrown in? In terms of the housing crisis, what areas need to be addressed most urgently as regards skills shortages? I would appreciate the witnesses' thoughts on those two questions.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

When it comes to skills, we are hearing from every employer across the regions and sectors that there is a skills gap and a shortage. It is hard to identify one specific area when the problem is across almost every industry and every business we speak to. The SOLAS skills and labour market research unit has excellent data, which it produces on an annual basis based on its difficult-to-fill vacancy survey. It pointed to the STEM careers, particularly in areas such as engineering and quality assurance, where employers find particular difficulties in recruiting candidates.

If we are to achieve ambitions in areas such as climate change targets and retrofitting, we need to focus on some of those careers and consider how we can develop new apprenticeships and reflect on how the programmes we have should be updated to ensure the skills that apprentices are learning best reflect what the experience is in the particular industry and what the national needs are. I know SOLAS is going through a validation and review of many of the craft programmes and we hope that that would also reflect some of those points. My colleague, Ms Harkin, may be able to respond on the piece around pay.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McGibney is keen to come in. Does he want to respond first?

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

It is interesting. When you get a presentation about the range of apprenticeships that are out there now and you look through the website, it has gone beyond the traditional construction and hairdressing and into much more specialised areas such as film and technology. Sometimes we need to revisit our language in referring to basic skills or whatever. I have seen some of the work of the OECD on future skills and one of the most valued jobs in the future could be a bicycle repair man. If we are all conscious of our contribution to the environment and how to deal with it, this could be a valued role that perhaps now, or certainly 20 years ago, would not have been seen as important a role. For us, it is also about how we adapt to what are valued roles going forward and, as part of that, how the range of apprenticeships out there are communicated both to companies and to people to make sure they are better understood and does not just cover the traditional skills. Those skills are still going to be important. In fact, they may even be more important than some of the ones I mentioned around AI and so on. It is worth having a look at that.

My background is in economics. We held an economics conference, the Dublin Economics Workshop, in Wexford in September. It is a fantastic place to visit and we are all conscious of the quality of public transport, particularly the railway down from Dublin. However, I make the point again that solving the issue with apprenticeships does not solve the wider problem of transport and travel. Investment is needed to develop both the rail service and other services, and not just in Dublin. I work with Dublin Chamber but we acknowledge that it is not just a Dublin issue. It is important we look at transport.

Bus Éireann was mentioned as well. Dublin Bus has a great scheme. I am also aware that Jim Meade, the CEO of Irish Rail who is just retiring, started his career as an apprentice. You can go right to the top, if you like. There are better ways to promote apprenticeships. You can go all the way to running a business if you start as an apprentice.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Ms Costello stated that the most significant issue around the continued expansion of apprenticeships is adequate funding. Obviously, there is not adequate funding at the moment. What is being invested currently in the system and what level of funding would be adequate? What sort of increase would we need?

Ms Costello referred to properly resourcing the system to prevent any further backlogs. What kind of backlogs is she talking about? I am aware that during Covid there was a huge backlog with off-the-job training. I believe that has been addressed. Having said that, and this relates to something the witnesses touched on already, I had a nephew doing an apprenticeship which was affected by that because he was waiting for ages to get his off-the-job training. However, he said when he did receive that training, much of it was stuff he had learned in school and was not necessary. The whole programme needs to be updated, assessed and perhaps, as was said, narrowed and streamlined, without affecting the quality.

My next point is related to some of the previous questions. Ms Costello and Mr. McGibney both pointed out that we need an ability to respond quickly to emerging market needs and changes to what is happening in the market. Is there a mechanism or a process for keeping on top of that in how new apprenticeship programmes are developed?

I want to raise another matter. I sat on the disability committee during the previous term. We know the employment rate among disabled people is this country is way below the European average. Representatives from SOLAS appeared before the committee and one of the things they pointed out was that there was quite a low rate of participation by disabled people. Part of the problem identified was employer attitudes to disability. How can we best address that so that disabled people could either be employment ready or be taken on for apprenticeships?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

I will start with the Senator's first question about funding numbers. That is data I would not have to hand or on file but we have seen an increase in funding for the apprenticeship programme over the past number of years but a lot of that funding went into addressing the backlogs that were created as a result of Covid. The specific areas where we see more funding being needed would be to prevent that backlog. What I mean by that is that there were backlogs during phase 2 as a result of Covid but there was also a concern earlier this year that we might experience backlogs again at later stages. This would be due to the capacity for education and training centres to actually deliver the off-the-job training phases. We need to make sure there is certainty in the system and enough funding in place to resource the capacity of apprentices who will pass through every one of those phases. That includes ensuring training centres have adequate funding and also that they have adequate funding to update their infrastructure, for example, if we need to train people on new types of technologies.

On the issue of quality assurance, the surveys we saw from both apprentices and apprentice employers indicate that there is a really broad satisfaction level with the apprenticeship system. One of the areas related to quality assurance that pops up now and again is that sometimes the curricula are not up to date with what industry is doing. That really comes down to the fact that technology is changing so quickly in businesses that you almost need to change the curriculum year on year. This is not only a problem for the apprenticeship system, which is in some ways more capable of dealing with the issue because it is co-developed with employers. In a way, they are a lot closer to the issues on the ground so there is a chance for the quality assurance and the reflections in the curricula to better meet their needs.

On the Senator's last point on disability, a lot of employers are unaware of some of the supports out there that could be used to support people with disabilities into employment. There needs to do better promotion of some of the individual supports, whether it is for people who are coming into apprenticeships or more generally into the employment system. We need to examine how we can promote some of those supports. At IBEC, we do a lot of work with our members through our diversity forum to share resources that are available through the Department but also through some of the individual NGOs that work with different community groups in this regard.

Ms Nichola Harkin:

I will briefly add to Ms Costello's point on IBEC's work on the diversity forum. One of our focuses for the last quarter of the year is to ensure our members are very aware of the supports available for employing people with disabilities, not just through apprenticeships but beyond that. That is something IBEC will be working on with our members for the rest of this year.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

In regard to the question of how much funding to put in, it is virtually impossible to know. There are a lot of challenges we have addressed here which, in the scheme of things, do not seem that difficult to solve. The first thing we need to do is solve the things we know could be improved, for example, improving the speed of the turnover. It is disappointing, in a way, to hear that things people have learned during the leaving certificate and so on are being replicated but that is back to people having the time available to focus on what they really need to do rather than just dusting off an old PowerPoint presentation from ten years ago or whatever. A lot of this is just about people having the time available.

There is a real supply and demand issue here in that we know about so many areas - and this in part goes back to Deputy Ó Súilleabháin's question about future industries - such as the wind energy sector. Until we actually do things like start building wind farms again and start to get a pipeline of that stuff evolving, we will not know how many people we will need to employ in that sector. The Arklow Bank wind farm, which we got built 20 years ago, is running out of steam at this stage and we have not managed to build any more. There are so many things that are impacted by decisions we are making or not making, as the case may be, around the economy. There is no doubt that the wind energy sector has great potential, not just for opportunities for apprenticeships and careers but also as a great opportunity for regional development. For example, it will create opportunities in the less urbanised areas of our economy. That would be great, if we could build on it.

It is about flexibility and it is back to terminology like "locking" the National Training Fund. We need to unlock things so we can deploy them quickly in the right areas. That is key.

On the whole area of disability, there are lots of initiatives we have done together. We have worked on equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, helplines and things like that. It is very concerning to see some of the rhetoric coming from west of our isle around diversity, equity and inclusion, DEI, programmes. It is a really worrying development. In Ireland, we really need to focus. I am wearing my sustainable development goals, SDG, pin. We need to get back to the SDGs. They come up for renewal in 2030. There is still a surprising lack of awareness in the public at large about what the SDGs are. We need to focus on things like that and bring in more employers. Employers would be willing but, equally, sometimes they need incentives as well, so maybe more can be done in the tax system to help with that.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McGibney wants to come in briefly.

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

Value for money would also be an important part of any spending programme. Mr. Talbot made a good point and one of the things he mentioned was the idea of administrative transfer options. One of the deterrents for some small businesses is that they feel they cannot meet the full needs of the curriculum for an apprenticeship. They might meet 80% of them but there may be a larger firm down the road that can meet the other 20%. We understand this option is an informal arrangement so if a firm asks for it, it can get it. However, it is not promoted so the initial hurdle for an SME that might want to take part is that it does not think it can make it. It would help if the administrative transfer option was better known and more actively promoted. This does not mean breaking up the apprenticeship and making it unmanageable. In that regard, I am conscious of the needs of the apprentice. What it means is the ability to share some of the education and experience pieces with another firm.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies. I was in the Chamber and missed the witnesses' earlier contributions, which I welcome. I have one or two questions on the issues where a lot of streamlining is needed. To the witnesses' knowledge, are the Northern Irish or British apprenticeship systems more successful more successful than ours? How are their systems working vis-à-vis ours?

Mr. Talbot mentioned specialist centres of excellence for skills. In the Cathaoirleach's ETB area, a specialist centre for manufacturing was established by the Louth-Meath Education and Training Board. Is Mr. Talbot thinking of something similar in relation to the skills side?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I will answer the Deputy's second question first. It absolutely is that sort of idea. One of the big things we try to do with local government - it is possible we need to do more with the ETBs - is to try to share that local knowledge. The Deputy will be aware of the work we do with local government around the country trying to get good ideas that are happening in one county evolved into other areas. Where good things are happening, we need to evolve those ideas, share them and make sure they are successful in multiple areas. A lot of that is about networking, people talking to each other and getting and promoting these good ideas. Some of it comes down to having the money available to do it. We constantly come back to the money.

On the Northern Ireland-GB question, we have not looked at the issue. I do not know whether IBEC has.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

We cannot speak with absolute specificity to Northern Ireland or the UK but one area where Ireland is a real outlier compared with every other apprenticeship system is the ability to access apprenticeship and vocational education at second level. We would like to see more opportunities for learners in schools today to be able to experience some part of an apprenticeship as part of the senior cycle curriculum, specifically in transition year, for example. There are very good pilots such as the STEM passport for inclusion, which operated alongside the traditional leaving certificate and allowed learners to access an additional credential in the STEM area. Potentially we should look at things like an ability to undertake a pre-apprenticeship as part of our senior cycle or some aspect of an apprenticeship system to promote it among learners in second level but also to give them a more direct route into apprenticeships.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses also mentioned the inability of smaller scale enterprises to take on apprentices or go the apprenticeship route.

I have spoken to small-scale building contractors, people providing building services or manufacturing and they are reluctant to go down route of taking on apprentices. Has any real effort been made for the sharing of the apprenticeship programme between a number of small employers? Mr. McGibney referred to the possibility of it in the contribution. Has that been tried anywhere?

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

My understanding is in practice - it is a bit like "do not give me theory" - it is allowed if somebody says they would like to do it but it is not a formal process. It should be made a more formal process with the appropriate safeguards, again bearing in mind the needs of the apprentice. It is absolutely a deterrent. They think they can get most of it but they cannot deliver the full scheme. Across a range of sectors, construction being one, it is an issue. It is a barrier. We need to get companies to think it is for them.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

We fully agree with the proposal to operate a pilot model of a shared apprenticeship scheme. We have seen something similar work in Europe. There are a couple of countries that operate models like that. I think there was one attempt in the south of the country to have something in the construction space. I am not sure how far that progressed. It offers real opportunity for smaller companies in particular but also seasonal employment where you might be busier at one time of the year and at another there may not be work there for the apprentice to get the training they need. It is an important avenue to explore also because we see that apprenticeship programmes are very general for some employers. Employment is now becoming a lot more discrete whereby you focus on specific aspects of a supply chain that leads to an overall occupation. Perhaps your employment does not cover the full aspect that individual apprentice needs to undertake their on-the-job training. The ability to share across multiple employers that would be able to offer a variety of experience would give them a more fleshed-out experience and the level of training they need in the workplace.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We had the heads of the technological universities at the committee last week. I asked about the collaboration between the colleges of further education and the different institutes. Each representative replied that there was absolute collaboration and co-operation right through with education and training boards and the colleges of further education up to higher education. Is that the reality in the witnesses' experience in their daily work?

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

At a regional level, Dublin Chamber has a representative on the Dublin Regional Skills Forum, which provides a forum to connect further and higher education institutions with business. The idea is to indicate what skills are needed and to target companies to find out the opportunities available from educational institutions. There are good structures. There is one person in the Dublin Regional Skills Forum who deals with the county of Dublin. This comes up in other areas. It is probably similar in other parts of the country. It is not hugely resourced. At a chambers level we have good relations with TU Dublin and, playing my regional card, Dublin lays claim to the three major universities, including TU Dublin and DCU, and we will even take Maynooth if we can have it, as a source of labour. Geography is not the only thing; all of the universities are important to business anywhere in Ireland. You want that relationship with every university and further and higher education institute.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

Within the apprenticeship system, there is very good collaboration between the ETB and technological university sector but as part of a broader tertiary system, there are significant opportunities to expand this collaboration, particularly in areas such as the expansion of tertiary degrees. We have seen a number emerge but there is opportunity for them to grow as they give good pathways from further to higher education. The education system needs to be looked at not just as a linear pathway but as something more circular whereby an individual does not just move up the NFQ but also from higher to further education. There are other areas that need to be explored like the sharing of infrastructure in local regions and training centres to maximise value for all communities from those resources. The ongoing consultation on the tertiary strategy is an opportunity to bring some fresh ideas.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. My apologies; I had to leave momentarily. I have read the statements and got to hear most of them. On expanding and developing the programme, there are two issues Ms Costello said were of concern. One is improving the time it takes to develop and launch new apprenticeships. Will she expand on that? What is the issue? The second was clarifying roles and responsibilities within the system. Going back to what Deputy Smith asked about the personnel in ETBs who are available to help and work with apprenticeships and promote the programme, the ETBs told us earlier in the year they do not have the staff resources for observing the terms and conditions of the apprentice in the workplace. I would not say there was concern about that but there was an inference that there could be things going on that they are not aware of. It would be good to dispel that. I am sure it is easy to do. Will Ms Costello comment on that? I think Deputy Smith was getting at this as well. I am not fully familiar with the term "consortia employers". I imagine it is something to do with shared apprenticeship programmes. Will Ms Costello provide a further explanation?

I think Mr. Talbot referred in his opening statement to the challenge there is and the desire to increase the diversity of people participating in apprenticeship programmes and for greater inclusion. Does he have any knowledge or experience of the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme? We had a presentation last week at the Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community from the Irish Traveller Movement on that programme. A possible concern is low uptake, whereby members of the Travelling community are eager to participate in an apprenticeship programme but they find employers are not aware of it or are not engaged to the degree they and we would all like. Does any of the witnesses have experience around that?

I presumably inaccurately made a presumption when I was coming in that the main focus of the contribution would be on the need for the Government to provide further funding to employers to incentivise participation in the apprenticeship programme. I am not hearing that very loudly, which is welcome. I think I get the message on further expending the National Training Fund but I think it is in a more general sense that the witnesses are looking for that expenditure. Mr. Talbot in particular spoke about the use of funding for increasing awareness, accessibility and visibility of the apprenticeship programme. That is very welcome. It is a good suggestion. I hope it will be in the apprenticeship strategy.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

I will start with consortia employers and the definition. Currently in Ireland, we have two separate apprenticeship models, one being craft, which is mainly associated with construction area occupations. It has been in operation for many decades. In 2016, we launched a new style of apprenticeship which expanded it into areas like IT and retail. That is the area we focus on. It is a bottom-up approach to developing apprenticeships.

On the point about the need for further funding for employers, IBEC, all employer groups and all employers are looking to increase the incentive employers receive under the consortia model. Currently, they receive a €2,000 incentive, which is welcome. It was part of the current action plan but does not go far enough to cover the costs of leaving an apprenticeship to go towards off-the-job training. This is particularly the case in many workplaces where there might be an apprentice who is on off-the-job training for two days a week and the employer still pays the apprentice during that period. They also have to consider issues such as backfill, mentorship and everything else that might be associated with taking on an apprentice. We would like to see an increase in that incentive. It could be targeted towards SMEs-----

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I should not have asked.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

-----which are most in need.

There can sometimes be a duplication of roles and responsibilities within the system, which can lead to some confusion and inefficiencies when employers have to work with the system.

We have a network of authorised officers on the ground who are employed through the ETBs. Their role concerns the quality assurance mentioned earlier. We also have individuals who are managing the apprenticeship programmes. Frequently, they are collecting the same data from employers, going out with the same requests and not sharing that data all the time.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Who employs them?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

The authorised officers are employed through the ETBs.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They are both employed by the ETBs.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

The programme managers are employed by the individual consortia. For example, IBEC manages a number of consortia and we employ programme managers to operate them. They frequently collect the same data and it is not often shared. Sometimes this data has been collected through letters and paper, which is really not how businesses operate in the 21st century, so we can imagine the difficulties an employer would have chasing down and submitting duplicate details over and over again.

Going back to the Deputy's point about quality assurance, if we could free up some of the time of the authorised officers where they are doing this paperwork so they could do more in the workplace with employers and apprentices doing that quality assurance and offering that pastoral service for apprentices, it would be very valued.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am unclear as to whether that paperwork comes from the ETB as well.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

It comes from multiple sources, including the ETBs, the programme managers and sometimes the training centres

Mr. Ian Talbot:

It is as much about awareness of the programmes as it is about any specific programmes. Some of this goes back to Deputy Smith's comments. People are involved in every process. Intentions are always very good but delivery is very different. We find that we now have all these new structures in local authorities but there are 31 local authorities and each of the enterprise offices operates quite differently. It is a known thing that people are working on. Having more structures coming from the top are in place that help people get a similar delivery is really important across apprenticeships as well as the enterprise environment. During Covid and subsequently, some of the grant aid was begging to be taken up by companies yet there is a real issue getting companies to take up things like the rent rebate scheme. It is a real challenge getting companies to engage with it. Too often, people saw it as too difficult and said it took ages when they previously filled in a grant form. There are a lot of preconceived ideas. There are people in every system and the more we can give people structure and awareness, the better it will be. We are trying to point to areas where if we got everyone together on the same page, we would make a lot of progress. That is really important. We all beat our heads off a brick wall about how best to get information to our members in a format they will take in and read, whether it be about energy grants from SEAI or apprenticeship programmes. People are time poor so how we get that message to them is really important.

We all represent blocks of businesses and have overlapping members, who have been members of IBEC for one reason or members of chambers for their geographic presence. There is a big cohort of employers that are not really engaged with anything and how we reach them is important as well. It is very hard for us to reach some of those.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Talbot aware of any engagement by any of IBEC's members with the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I am not aware of the level of engagement of individual members with any programme. I have heard of that programme but I have not asked any specific questions about it. We can certainly find out more. Again, it is about raising awareness of what programmes are out there and getting them delivered around the country or in critical areas.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It has only been in pilot format but it should be a structured programme.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I am making a note about that.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for missing the start but I was in the Seanad Chamber. I hope I do not repeat what has gone before. I will pursue what was said by Deputies Smith and Connolly. Before I entered the House, I was the first and only employee of a company 30-odd years ago. In that scenario, you make the coffee, do accounts, fix the machines and sweep the floor. You need somebody and could provide training for an apprentice but you cannot and you do not join IBEC or chambers. You do not have time for any of that crack but you would love more employees to share the work. These companies fall between the cracks because they are not members of Mr. Talbot's organisation or any other organisation. The entrepreneurs are out there - SMEs, the self-employed and businesses with two, three, four or five employees. Someone my age was lucky that we had Bord na Móna. We had fitters, welders and mechanics coming out of the board looking for jobs or to set up their own companies. That day is gone. I am thinking of builders and block layers in particular. We all know the demand. We cannot turn on the television or radio without being told how we will not build the houses without the tradespeople. 3-D printing is coming online. A block layer with two, three, four or five employees is flat to the mat. They have heard about this concept, seen it and would love to do it but how do they take on apprentices for something that is an entirely new concept to them or where do they find them? I am not condoning this but back in my day, we watched apprentices coming out of bigger companies and tried to make them an offer and rob them, in simple terms. We tried to entice them and let someone else have a shot. I am not condoning that but for a lot of companies, the only way to get a trained employee is to let someone do the donkey work and that is bad policy. Will Mr. Talbot comment on that? I know he touched on it at the end. There are a lot of SMEs and small, rural businesses that just do not have the time or personnel for this. They do not have the HR department that the companies we think about when we talk about all this training and apprenticeships do have.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

It is a huge challenge. Before the Senator arrived, we were talking about the speed at which a whole range of employment is moving. 3-D printing is a significant area. I believe some construction in Dundalk, for example, is happening with 3-D printing, so where will that leave bricklayers? The likelihood is that an awful lot of people joining the workforce today or who are already in the workforce will have to go through multiple career changes and we must prepare them for that in terms of skills but also potentially in terms of the psychology of knowing when it is time to move on. There are some real challenges that might come not necessarily from the Department but from other areas.

Regarding how we reach those non-members, everyone gets communication from Revenue. I have always thought that there is a good opportunity for Revenue to be used to promote key things for businesses. Everyone opens their communications from Revenue. I am not sure whether it would want to do it but everyone pays attention to it. How we get people's attention is really important.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The type of lad I am talking about puts the Revenue letter in the bin.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

None of our members would do that. Mr. McGibney is keen to say something.

Mr. Aebhric McGibney:

To echo what the Senator said, regarding management time to engagement, I have less direct experience with apprenticeships but when it is a targeted scheme, targeting is good from a Government spending point of view but it requires a level of administration and bureaucracy. The Minister's work group on the costs of doing business is looking at removing red tape. There is a general commitment at EU level and Irish level in the programme for Government to reduce the level of burden on SMEs and micro-businesses in particular. We could spend half of the sum of a grant for the employment and investment incentive scheme or the research and development tax credit on the accountant who needs to fill out the forms to get the benefit of the grant. It is targeted but the cost of administration by the company, let alone the State, is large for a lot of these schemes. I echo the Senator's sentiment regarding the challenges that companies face in just having the time to engage.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I am sorry I was not here; I was in the Chamber. How can apprenticeships be advertised or sold not only to young people, but to their parents, because sometimes the blockage to apprenticeships is parents not understanding it is great to do an apprenticeship? We often think the only way to third level education is paper and pen in a lecture hall. When I meet young people who have done apprenticeships, they are so happy. We have often heard over the past number of weeks that young people who discover the way they learn and the things they enjoy are going to thrive. We must try to not just think about outdated and outmoded ways of third level education. How can apprenticeships be advertised and sold to young people, but also to parents?

How can women and people with disabilities be supported to take on apprenticeships? I liked what was said about language because it is really important. If we call people firemen or whatever, we need to do away with that sort of language. On that basis, we would be able to include more people. How can apprenticeships be made more accessible practically to people with disabilities and women?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

On the question about advertising apprenticeships, this is an area where the national apprenticeship office and the action plan for apprenticeship has been very successful. There have been national campaigns and a number of events that really have done a lot of work promoting apprenticeships. The challenge is a cultural mindset change. It is not going to switch overnight; it is something we have to keep plugging away at to have the type of cultural change. Two areas where we could see further action, as we mentioned earlier, are the opportunity for students at an earlier level engaging in vocational education and apprenticeship programmes as part of second level curricula and better resourcing of career guidance at second level. Currently, resourcing for guidance counsellors is very strained. A lot of times they are the first response when it comes to mental health crises in school. It is very appropriate that resources would be diverted to students and children who are in need, but it does sometimes mean career guidance counselling is not always the focus. We need to make sure there is enough resourcing in schools to deal with mental health concerns and to expand opportunities for career guidance for different students as well.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Youthreach and community training centres have an important place in the move from students doing QQI level 3,4 or 5 or whatever, and then moving into apprenticeships. The models are very complementary. There needs to be more emphasis not just on mainstream education, but on Youthreach and community training centres and the students progressing into apprenticeships or sitting in lecture halls or whatever it is. There is a real gap there that could be filled to make it a lot easier for students to make the transition to apprenticeships.

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

Yes, we agree. The ETBs are very well located, both on a regional basis and in their local communities, to give that sort of support and as part of the broader second level education institutes to connect the dots a bit better.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses feel apprentices are paid enough, especially for the traditional crafts needed for housing, etc.?

Ms Nichola Harkin:

It is important to look at apprenticeships as an alternative to full-time education. We have heard a lot today about the fact that time and cost are a real barrier to employers taking on apprentices. We need to be cautious about anything that would increase the cost of apprenticeships. There is a need for more apprenticeships so we do need to be very careful around increasing the costs of apprenticeships, making them less viable, particularly for smaller enterprises. It is also important to recognise that taking on apprentices will involve a huge time commitment and a huge cost commitment both in the training and learning component but also in the mentoring and backfilling. There is a big investment from both the individual and the employer in apprenticeships. We have to look at the payment model in the context of apprenticeships as an alternative to full-time college education and the need that apprenticeships be adequately funded and adequately available across the board for employers of all different sizes.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the language Ms Costello used regarding the need to move to an education system that is more circular. I would go further; we need to move to a system that is more of a matrix, meaning students can do this, or that, and come back, and move around the board in that way. I also welcome Ms Costello's comments on career guidance, which is really important. We need to resource that and get students more familiar with the fact that they are going into a world of lifelong learning and it is not that they just go on to further education and that is it, and then continue working in that space regardless. That is still very much part of the narrative out there and the expectation among the student body. I was a third level lecturer in Technological University Dublin before I was elected. I am very familiar with the challenges we have with the student body.

My first question is on apprentices. One of the challenges I have come across is that it is more challenging for an individual young person to engage with the apprenticeship system, rather than just filling out the CAO form from one to ten. My classes certainly had people there because it was the easy option. Then, of course, it did not suit them. That then affected their mental health and they were unsuccessful, so they had to come back into the system again. One is managing these challenges with these young people. From the perspective of representing employers, what can we do to enable employers to make it easier? Effectively, we are asking young people at the moment to go to an employer and ask them to take them on. If parents have not managed to get their 18-year olds to get a part-time job because they are too scared about that level of engagement, then asking them to go down the apprentice route gets them nowhere. The parents know that their 18-year-olds learn by being hands-on but they cannot make them deal with an employer to engage. From the perspective of representing employers, what can be done to encourage them, or what do we need to do to change that process so we can make it easier for 18-year-olds to engage rather than just filling in the CAO form, as they are doing?

My other question is about the National Training Fund. I have a list of suggestions from Ms Costello as to how we can utilise that fund, and that is terrific. We need to use it for its original purpose, which was to help provide skills that employers need. As all witnesses pointed out, we are dealing with a rapidly changing workplace, and we will need that fund to enable people to acquire those skills. How can we allow the employer's voice in that process? Ms Costello recommended the "employer's voice". How does she see that operating?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

I will definitely have to start using the term "matrix of education" going forward. On the question of how employers can make it easier for apprentices to come into apprenticeships, looking at the employer survey and the apprentice survey, there is a cohort of both that said they found difficulty finding an apprentice or an apprentice finding an employer. Clearly, there is some sort of mismatch going on. It would be very positive to have a more advanced job matching platform available through the national apprenticeship office. It is currently a static page where there are lists of employers that are available. Something a little bit more sophisticated, which allows for better matching of employment opportunities with individuals would be positive. Individual employers are involved with advertising their own programmes the whole time.

Through the pre-apprenticeship programme operated out of TU Dublin there were excellent job matching days and opportunities for individuals to go in and test what it would be like to work in a workplace. A lot of it is quite organic and organised by individual employers and we are trying to share best practice as much as possible, though there is maybe an element of the matching that we would like to see more organised.

On the National Training Fund and the employer voice, we would really like to see employers have a stronger say in how that fund is directed. Part of that requires more up-to-date and regular reporting on how the funding is spent and what impact it is having on lifelong learning so we can make those types of decisions. At the moment we have a deficit of knowledge about how the NTF is invested and what impact it has on things like lifelong learning. The first port of call needs to be much more regular information and data on how people are engaging in programmes operated by the fund. We have a National Skills Council and a subgroup of it is looking at the fund. It would be really useful for them to have more of a strategic and structured role within the broader dialogue of the National Training Fund so they could input directly on how that funding should be spent. There are two very purposeful answers that could help employers have a much stronger voice.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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How is the effectiveness of the pre-apprenticeship programmes and access programmes being measured and how is the progress towards equity of access being monitored and evaluated?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

I believe they undertake an apprentice survey, I want to say every year, that catalogues some of that data. Data is probably also available through SOLAS and the HEA on individuals' experience, but I do not have more information than that.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned how the systems for apprenticeships and so on work in Northern Ireland and Britain. Something we should all bear in mind every day we go about our work is the need to think of the all-Ireland context. We are too small an island to ignore what is happening only a few miles away from us. I live along the Border and represent two of the southern Ulster counties so I am always influenced by what is happening in my neighbourhood. In fairness to IBEC, it did wonderful work at the time of 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. Fergal O'Brien and Danny McCoy presented at Oireachtas committees to outline what had happened since 1998 in the context of the development of the all-Ireland economy and the potential to grow it so it was much stronger. In training people for the economy and for society as well, and in the businesses Chambers Ireland represents, it is very important we are focused at all times on the all-Ireland potential of growing businesses and creating services, training and skills for our people as well.

We cannot have centres of excellence everywhere but there is a lot of merit in having services delivered locally as well, within reason. One of the great benefits of the colleges of further education is they were nearer to communities who may not gone on to education in the past or not gone past second level. Oftentimes it is up in Dublin or from my point of view it is in Dundalk, Sligo or wherever. Some families and young people may think that is too far away and they should not bother, so we always need to factor in the attraction, especially for people who may be only lukewarm about following up an apprenticeship, the value of a service based locally, provided all standards are followed.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

The Deputy will be familiar with some of the work that, for example, Dundalk Chamber does along the M1 corridor and its work with Newry, Warrenpoint and so on. There is similar activity in Letterkenny with Derry as well. Dublin Chamber has a very active engagement with Cork Chamber and the Northern Ireland Chamber to promote economic opportunity. I am just back from a visit to Cork. There are a lot of things happening but obviously there is a lot more to do. Matters such as the whole challenge by cross-Border workers on taxation, for example, are potentially an issue for apprenticeship-type programmes as well. There are a lot of challenges, some of which are easier to solve than others.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We need to be addressing them though.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

Yes.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In the public service and in the private sector as well.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure if we got to this question earlier, but on the comment about improving the time it takes to develop and launch new apprenticeship programmes, do the witnesses find it is too long and drawn out?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

Yes, that is exactly the issue. In many cases it is a year to a year and a half to develop a programme but in a lot of other cases it can be a lot longer, such as two to three years. That obviously is too long a wait time. As I may have mentioned, there is a ten-step process currently for the development of a new apprenticeship programme, but sometimes delays can happen before you enter that process, like when you are in dialogue with the consortia but also with the system on whether there is a desire for this apprenticeship to be developed. As such, even before you reach the first stage of that apprenticeship programme you can experience delays. It is about how we can speed up some of that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the same for consortia and craft?

Ms Meadhbh Costello:

As we move to a new single apprenticeship system this is going to be the case going forward.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I want to follow up Deputy Smith's question. There are geographic considerations and divergences around the country in the offerings. Have the witnesses identified any regional gaps in certain apprenticeships in the various regions of the country?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

Yes and no. It goes back to the conundrum, for example, about wind energy. There is fantastic opportunity in wind energy. There are organisations like ESB Networks as well. It depends where the next storm hits, but opportunities arise from that for learning. We have to be clearer in where we are going to be investing as a country. We need the national development plan, Project Ireland 2040 and the winter programme for upgrading the grid. All these things need to happen to provide that sense of critical mass and scale that will have employers saying we now need to invest, whether it is Mayo for wind energy, Ringaskiddy, Cork or Cobh for the port that is coming in. It is those sort of things. Going back to Deputy Connolly's point, it is not looking for government to be paying businesses for everything, but it is difficult without understanding where the Government is going to be investing some of this big infrastructure stuff as that is where most of the apprentice opportunities are going to lie.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As a tangent off that, with apprenticeships and businesses it is all about competitiveness and how we can get more people working and generate the cash flow for the economy. Are the witnesses seeing how the apprenticeships are improving competitiveness? Are we filling labour shortages as opposed to putting that competitiveness into the economy?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I do not have any economic data to back it up, but yes.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Great.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

The story Mr. McGibney told earlier about Jim Meade is great. You can make it all the way, you just need the right drive and motivation. You need to get people on the ladder. At the moment we are pretty much at a full employment economy. We do not know what is going to come next. The world is in such a strange place at the moment. The apparent aversion in America to wind farms could be an opportunity for us to make the most of our potential opportunity. There could be people who thought they would sell wind turbines to America who can now sell them to us, for example. We need to get a move on with making some of these key decisions and getting that message out there that will encourage companies to invest even more.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. Mr. Talbot mentioned Dundalk Chamber and Newry Chamber. As someone from the area, they do incredible work. He also mentioned 3D houses. We have those 3D-printed houses in Dundalk. For that work, the apprenticeship skills came from interaction with Skillnet, the ETBs and with industry. It is an example how an ambition, a need and the agencies came together to make things work and now we have those. Let us hope we have more projects around the country because they are very efficient and also they are some of the best of Louth.

On behalf of the committee I thank you all. We have had a very good session on how we can look at our future skills, the OECD reports and how we can, as a committee, push for what we want.

We want an ambitious, young and indeed older workforce to reskill and upskill. I thank the witnesses for their engagement and knowledge and for sharing that with us today. We will allow them to depart before moving into private session to deal with housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.