Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 30 September 2025
Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen
Petition on Reform of Pet Laws
2:00 am
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to our meeting. There are some formal notices that I have to read out relating to privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. Today's business is petition No. P00014/25, reform Irish laws on pet theft 2025 with Ms Lisa O'Connor, petitioner, and Mrs. Louise O'Tuama and Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick, of the Working Animal Guardians, WAGs, group. I like WAGs which sounds pretty cool.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. They are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her, or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish their opening statements on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On behalf of the committee, I would like to extend a warm welcome to Ms O'Connor, Mrs. O'Tuama and Ms Fitzpatrick.
I ask Ms O'Connor to make her opening statement. It should be about ten minutes. We will then have time for questions, comments and engagement from committee members. I thank her for being here and giving her time.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to address them today. I am accompanied by Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick and Mrs. Louise O’Tuama from the dog rescue Working Animal Guardians. They are here to support me in a personal and professional capacity. Two ladies whose dogs were stolen and are still missing are also in the Public Gallery. Not only have they shared their experience with me but they trust me to advocate for them. I am here not just as a petitioner but as an advocate for all the families I help. I want to emphasise the emotional impact of losing a pet and the need for legal recognition of pets as more than mere property. Many years ago I had a cocker spaniel who went missing. I will never forget that feeling of hopelessness and having nowhere to turn for help. We did find her; she had got out of the house and was found not too far from home.
In 2020, as a concerned citizen, I started to notice a rise in missing and stolen dogs in Ireland being shared on Facebook. It reminded me of my personal experience and prompted me to set up my group, Missing/Stolen Animals Ireland, in the hope of helping others reunite with their missing dogs. Around 2021, it started rising considerably - dogs stolen to order, homes targeted, chips cut out of their bodies and dogs trafficked to the UK and further afield. Dogs were the new drugs. I started looking at Ireland’s theft laws specifically if a dog is stolen. I found out that Irish law considers dogs and other family pets to be mere property. This means that if someone steals a family pet such as a dog it is punished in the same way as if someone steals any non-living object such as a mobile phone or a power tool. I reached out to TDs, specifically justice Ministers and An Garda Síochána to understand what was being done to tackle this cruel crime. The Department of Justice under the previous Government looked at changing legislation specifically at how a dog might be classed but unfortunately it did not happen. I started an Uplift petition during the previous Government term. Today it stands at just over 10,000 signatures. Through my Facebook group, Missing/Stolen Animals Ireland, I have witnessed hundreds of dogs being stolen around Ireland in the past five years. The theft of pets is covered as stolen property in the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. The Justice Department will argue:
It is important to emphasise that theft offences already apply to this crime, and can carry very heavy penalties. The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 provides for a maximum sentence of 10 years' imprisonment in the case of offences of theft and handling of stolen property; while a maximum sentence of 5 years' imprisonment is provided for the offence of possession of stolen property.
When imposing sentence, judges are not limited to considering the monetary value of a pet – the emotional distress to the victim caused by the offence is absolutely relevant and can be, and is, taken into account where appropriate.
The current legal framework in Ireland, which treats pets as mere property, fails to recognise the unique bond between humans and their companion animals. Advocates argue that pets are not just possessions but integral members of families, providing companionship, emotional support and even essential services such as guiding individuals with disabilities. Pet theft is a deeply distressing crime that impacts families emotionally and disrupts their lives.
Since 2020, there has been a significant increase in reported cases of missing and stolen dogs in Ireland with many being trafficked or used for illegal purposes. While there has been a decrease in reported dog thefts in 2025, the issue persists. The lack of accurate recording and data collection by An Garda Síochána complicates understanding the full scope of the issue as data on stolen pets is not systematically tracked in the PULSE system. This has led to inconsistencies in how cases are handled with some pet owners reporting that their concerns are not taken seriously. Looking back at records I have kept since 2020, so many dogs are still missing from their families. Companion animals, dogs in particular, are still being stolen in Ireland.
When I speak to families of stolen dogs they explain to me how heartbroken they are. Not knowing what has happened to their dog has a devastating effect. It can destroy lives, compounds trauma and is used as a tool of coercion and control. Just recently, late on a Sunday night in Rathcoole, County Dublin, a home was broken into.
The owner was asleep upstairs. Her five-month-old puppy Belle was taken from her bed downstairs along with other items of value. It is nearly four weeks since this happened. Not only was their house broken into but their much loved puppy was stolen. It is everything that comes after that ordeal and not knowing where their dog is now that breaks people. When a family pet is stolen, I advise them to report the incident to An Garda Síochána, get it logged into their system and get a PULSE number. The response seems to differ depending on the station and the garda on duty. Sometimes, the frantic owner is not taken seriously and the pet in question is not even logged into the system. Most times the dog has disappeared into the unknown never to be seen again. Some are trafficked, sold on, used as bait and bred from to live a life of misery. The action plan should include the following. Accurate recording of pet theft incidents by law enforcement is essential. A national campaign informing dog owners of the risks and what they can do if this happens to them. Reforming the law to classify pet theft as a distinct crime with strict penalties would reflect the significant emotional and societal value of pets and act as a deterrent to this growing issue. This was done in England and Northern Ireland and there has been a decrease in reported of thefts in Northern Ireland. I have included the link in my written submission. The current situation regarding pet theft in Ireland is concerning. Pet theft remains a significant issue. I have included supporting evidence in my written submission.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms O'Connor I can see from the way she spoke this is something she feels very passionately about. We thank her most sincerely for coming in this morning and sharing that with us. It helps us with our discussions. I will now open to members of the committee. I call Deputy Buckley.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. What is good about this committee is it is lastchance.com for some people. It gives everybody a voice. I have pets. When Ms O'Connor gave her statement, I thought to myself anybody who breaks into my house would have some job with the two lads I have inside in the house. They are two boxers. I know what it is like. You get attached to your pets regardless of what they are. In the closing part of her statement where Ms O'Connor spoke about reforming the law for stiffer sentences, I was not aware that is already done in the UK and in the Six Counties.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is a legislative change.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I will look it up. There is a generation that is nearly glued to their telephones like pets and they cannot live without them. I can understand the people in the Gallery whose pets were stolen. Chips are being cut out of the animals and they are recklessly used for breeding or baiting.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is madness. I will look into legislative change. I will look at the law in the UK and Six Counties. I cannot see why we could not replicate that. They are our close neighbours so more than likely - I am not suggesting that is where these animals are being exported to but a bit of joined-up thinking and common sense would be good. I thank Ms O'Connor. It is wonderful she can come in here and highlight the issue. It stokes debate outside. Some people would be embarrassed; they would not even report it because of the responsibility. I will look into it and see if we can take a common-sense approach to make a change to do the right thing.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Connor, Mrs. O'Tuama, Ms Fitzpatrick and the people in Public Gallery for shining a light on a real issue.
Pets are not just companions. They are part of the family. It is no different in my household. I am a big motor sports fan. I do not know whether the witnesses know the story about Lewis Hamilton and the connection he had with Roscoe. That is a man who wants for nothing. He is not short of money. He adopted Roscoe in back in 2013 and if anyone reflects the bond that exists between families and their pets, it is Lewis Hamilton, even though I am not a big fan of his when it comes to the sport. I am more of a Max Verstappen fan to be honest.
Theft can have a particular impact on children and older people. The bond can be even greater. There is trauma in children losing their pets. I fully agree that pet theft, including dog theft, needs to be treated as serious criminal theft as opposed to theft of property. We need to improve the legal and policy framework. I heard what the witnesses said about other jurisdictions. I fully support the idea that where patterns emerge geographically an improved Garda response is needed.
We do not have mandatory microchipping here. In the context of theft, sometimes the chips are just ripped - for want of a better word - from the pet. As regards the penalty and the crime being treated as serious criminal theft, is there room for improved monetary fines as well that would perhaps be linked to people's income and deducted at source? At the end of the day, let us be realistic; our courts are busy and our prisons are overcrowded. We are looking for a deterrent.
My pets are not microchipped. Is that a reflection on me? Would it make a difference if I microchipped them? Is there an issue with people not reporting pet theft? Perhaps I am unique. I sent one of my pets away to be obedience trained and the pet was stolen from the kennels. I took the individual to court and I remember the judge looking at me and saying "your dog was stolen". I said "Yes". He awarded me €1,000 but I never saw a penny because I could not chase it up. I experienced that kind of theft. Will the witnesses comment on microchipping and possible deterrents, not only custodial or monetary ones?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have just incriminated myself.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I think you said you just have not got around to doing it yet, but it is on the list, just to be clear.
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
The point is that the Deputy is not alone. Many people have not microchipped their dogs, even though it is incredibly important to enable the dog to be returned if it ends up loose, in a dog pound or, God forbid, stolen. It is the only way at the moment to have that traceability for a dog. There is an issue under the Control of Dogs Act as well, that one of the definitions of ownership of a dog is who the dog resides with. Even though the Deputy has not microchipped his dogs, it would be recognised that he is the owner because his dogs reside with him. However, that also brings forward another problem when dogs are stolen, because if a dog that has not been microchipped is stolen, the owner might know that a person at the other end of the town has the dog but that dog has been residing with that person. Under the Control of Dogs Act it is a nebulous area.
That issue is linked to this and it has to be straightened out and clarified. Many rescues offer services to individuals to have their dogs microchipped for free or at discounted prices and so on. As Ms O'Connor pointed out, unfortunately, in the criminal game of stealing dogs, people are highly professional and cutting out the microchip is absolutely commonplace.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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For the record, my wife has just texted me to say shame on me and that my dogs are microchipped.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to know.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Can that please be added to the minutes of the meeting?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Let the record show it.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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His are chipped.
Mrs. Louise O'Tuama:
Yes, his are chipped, thanks to his wife. He just did not do it himself. In any case, it is illegal and I do not think people know that. When that law was being brought in everyone working in rescues knew it would not work because it is not enforced. The problem is that there are dogs running around and no wardens or anyone else is following up on that. It is important to have enforcement of laws. There are some very good laws, but no enforcement.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The role of local authorities was touched on when dog wardens were mentioned. Are local authorities not doing enough? Could they do more? Are they key actors in this problem?
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
Local authorities certainly have a role to play in the overall mechanism used when a dog is stolen. As Ms O'Connor said in her report, many people do not report their dogs missing. They are not even aware they can get a PULSE number from An Garda Síochána. The issue also needs communication and information. There should be a national database that is accessible to the local authorities and An Garda Síochána nationwide when a dog is stolen and a PULSE number should be generated for that dog. It is critical for that to happen. Local authorities absolutely have a role, but it is chalk and cheese. There are blatant differences in the calibre of those working on the ground as dog wardens and councils supporting dog wardens. It is obvious to anyone involved in the area of animal rescue and people who are dog owners. It should be standardised.
The Deputy also asked how the law should be enforced and not only having a penal sentence imposed.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
Currently, there is no real deterrent for these thieves. That is why I suggested going down the route of England and Northern Ireland, where it is recorded as a pet abduction, not just the theft of an object. When people come to me or my group and say their dog is missing or stolen, the first thing I tell them is to go to their local Garda station, report it and get a crime reference number and to contact the microchip company and get the chip flagged as missing or stolen. If the dog is then picked up or if someone tries to sell the dog and the chip is scanned, it will be seen that the dog has been registered as stolen.
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
On the penalties and updating the law, the Deputy is right that prisons are overflowing at the moment with more spaces being created for people on remand. We have to change the culture among certain elements of society. There have to be deterrents, but there also has to be awareness and education. It is important. Monetary penalties should absolutely be imposed.
It would be really significant to do that and, as suggested, they could be deducted at source. It is also about having national communication across the country. There needs to be a live register of people who are convicted of these offences. It is absolutely critical that they are identified and that An Garda Síochána and other relevant bodies, such as registered charities or animal welfare sections in local councils, know who they are. It is absolutely essential that this is brought in. Money and funding need to be given to education across the board to raise awareness. How many of us have gone to our local shops and seen a dog tied up outside while somebody does their shopping inside? In all good faith they never imagine that their dog will be stolen, but that is exactly what happens. What is happening has to come out of the shadows and into the light.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Louise O'Tuama, Brenda Fitzpatrick and Lisa O'Connor for coming in. It has been a very informative meeting. The witnesses do an awful lot of work voluntarily. It is great to see it and I commend them on that. It is fair to say that dog theft probably spiked around the time of Covid when many other criminal opportunities were closed down. Criminals diverted their interest and enthusiasm into this sector. This probably explains why dog theft has abated more recently, although the threat has not abated. There are other opportunities out there.
There are two types of dog ownership: responsible and irresponsible. In the agriculture committee of the last Dáil, we dealt with many issues caused by irresponsible dog owners such as attacks on sheep, abandoned dogs, and dogs being malnourished and not looked after. In the main we are looking here at responsible dog owners, who love their dogs and get very attached to them.
I agree there is a need for a huge awareness campaign. I agree we need a national database of dog ownership. For years in the agriculture world we have been trying to do that for horses and it has not worked. It is not easy but it is still probably the only way we are going to address it.
Did the witnesses look at the ports? They can answer this when I have finished. Obviously the dogs are going out through the ports. They are probably bringing them alive to the boats. Perhaps the animal is sedated to get it out. What safeguards do the ports have in place? This is something we should be doing as well.
Awareness is very important, as is the database. We probably need to tighten up what we do at the ports. I am not convinced about bringing in legislation, as was done in the UK. There are sufficient financial charges there. I am coming at this from a rural Ireland perspective. If something happens outside in the yard, you leave it there. It is very hard to differentiate between the pet dog and the horses and cattle. We would more or less see them as the same, but that does not take away or detract from the pain and suffering that occurs when a dog is stolen.
The witnesses have done huge work and given us an insight into many issues I did not know about. It is a major problem. Their next port of call is probably the agriculture committee, or a meeting with Department of agriculture officials. Certainly we will help in any way we can. The witnesses have done a huge body of work and have shone an important light on this. I hope this committee can help with any further engagement with the agriculture committee - my colleague Senator Brady is on that committee - or with a meeting with departmental officials. I am very impressed with the work the witnesses have done. I know that they have done a lot and that they have a life outside of this. If they have discussions with representatives of the ports, I would be interested to hear about it.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
I had a list of the contacts in the ports, specifically at Rosslare and Dublin and in the North. In 2020 and 2021, when this activity was rife around the country, I started to tell owners to contact the person and give them a photograph of their dog and their contact information. They would do that. As the years went on and not as many dogs were being stolen, I found that people were not taking dogs out via ports anymore. It seems that there is more in-country theft now.
The dogs are moved around the country. There are specific cases where we are 100% sure that the dog was stolen because it has been caught on CCTV or the vehicle is caught on CCTV. When An Garda Síochána is notified, they might say to the owner that they need to contact the ports as well.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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So it is more often now a case of domestic theft.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our witnesses and I compliment them, as my colleagues have, on the work they are doing to highlight very important but unfortunate incidences that are happening in our country today.
I recall a joint policing committee meeting in County Cavan some years ago where the dog warden made a presentation to us. Dog wardens have a huge body work to do. A lot of it is about dogs that are nuisances, perhaps being they are being maltreated. In built-up and urban areas, in particular, dogs can be held in somewhat inadequate accommodation, with very large animals in limited space. I am impressed with the body of work that has been outlined. Policing partnership committees are to be established at every local authority level. Maybe some have been established already, but not many. They are replacing the joint policing committees, which in the past comprised local public representatives and representatives of different organisations and statutory agencies. Perhaps the witnesses could pick a few local authorities and make a presentation to them. It could help to get some coverage in local print and broadcast media, which could be important from the point of view of getting information out and making people aware of the extent of this theft.
My colleague Senator Flaherty has mentioned that is important to have engagement with the Department of agriculture. It has responsibility for animal welfare and has a big veterinary service throughout the country covering every part of the State. It would be important to engage with it. Those involved need to be working closely with An Garda Síochána on this issue. There is also a veterinary service attached to each local authority. It may be good for the witnesses to bring their presentation to those entities as well.
I may be wrong but my recollection is that when microchipping regulations were introduced - it must be ten years ago now - there was an information campaign about the obligation. From memory, it had a catchy message that it could not be tolerated if you did not have your dogs microchipped and this helped to create awareness. Maybe as a committee we should emphasise to the powers-that-be the need to rerun that publicity campaign to alert people to their obligations. These regulations have been in place for the past ten years at least.
I am sure the witnesses work closely with some of the dog rescues, including Dogs Trust. Do many of the pets that are stolen end up abandoned? If so, I assume they subsequently end up in rescue centres. Is there any evidence of that?
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
Yes, absolutely. Louise O'Tuama and I are part of WAG Animal Rescue - WAG stands for "working animal guardians" - where we work with some of the dog rescues nationwide. We have evidence of dogs which have been stolen turning up, down the road, in rescues or in pounds. It happened to us recently with a Pomeranian that came into our care having allegedly been found in Ballyfermot. Months later, we found out that this dog had actually been stolen. We reunited the dog with the owner. Again, it highlights the power of the microchip. If a dog is not microchipped, it makes it a million times harder to do that. One can say that sometimes it is an act of luck that we can reunite them, but if a dog is microchipped it accelerates the process of trying to reunite the dog with the rightful owner.
The Deputy is absolutely correct that having more publicity out there on responsible dog ownership, on the microchipping of dogs, and on not leaving dogs abandoned outside shops or letting them run around in the street or front gardens, is absolutely essential.
I will make one further point because it is such a serious issue that we are bringing forward, and Ms O'Connor has done so much work on it for all of these years. There should be a very heavy societal penalty imposed on those who are guilty of stealing people's hearts from their families, including a lifetime ban on them owning animals. The issue of horses is serious, and My Lovely Horse Rescue is doing Trojan work on that. However, in many ways, I think it is easier to start with domestic animals that people have in their homes. It is easier for others to identify on an emotional level because they might have a dog or a cat, and so on. The vast majority of people in Ireland would be absolutely in support of this. We hope the Department of agriculture and also the powers that be in this wonderful House - we greatly value the input of the politicians - can get behind this, support it and bring it into law.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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As we know, for livestock animals, the Department of agriculture has a very sophisticated animal registration system. The minute a calf is born, it has to be registered, which is quite right. Its systems are a very important part of traceability. I understood that the idea at the time microchipping was introduced was that it would cover this.
Mrs. Louise O'Tuama:
Nobody has ever been prosecuted for not having a dog microchipped, although there may be numbers in single digits. Since they brought this in, nobody ever gets prosecuted. That is really what the issue is. When we talk about dogs, we are talking about sentient animals. That has been recognised by the EU. They have a full range of emotions. They are not just a dog. When you bond with that animal, they bond with you. This is a huge issue for people. If somebody steals that dog, for some people, it is like their child. Regardless of whether we think that is right or wrong, it is like that. However, nobody gets prosecuted properly.
Where is the deterrent to stop people from robbing your dog? It is only a dog to them. It is done for monetary gain. That is how dogs are viewed in this country in more than one aspect that we could go into, although we will not do that today. They are just seen as monetary gain. The view is: “There is an easy buck. I cannot make any money through Covid, so there is a dog I can have.” On Ms O’Connor’s webpage recently, there was video footage of a guy driving up in a van, and he just stretched out, picked up a dog and threw it in the van. How did they get the dog back? They made it too hot to handle by getting it all over social media. That is because of people like Ms O'Connor. It is not gardaí out there, running around, looking for dogs. I am the kind of person who would go out to try to save a scared dog that nobody could catch. You would ring the gardaí, and you might get one who will take you seriously, but they do not understand. They will say, and I would agree, that they have very important things to be doing. However, if we start to recognise dogs as sentient, and that they are very much part of the family, maybe it will be taken a bit more seriously at the higher level and the lower level. That will be a deterrent to stop the robbery of people's dogs. It is as simple as that.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Those are very valuable points. I call Senator Brady.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I am a pet owner. I have two working dogs at home that stay in the house with the family. I know what it is like to have a property broken into because it happened to me. Thankfully, the dogs were not taken but other property was taken. As my colleagues have said, any time your property, your home or your security is breached in any way, it has a lasting effect forever on your mental awareness to know that somebody has been in your private space.
My colleagues noted that the Department of agriculture has strict rules when it comes to livestock. We are now at the stage where there is a database of the DNA of cattle so that when a calf is born, its DNA is taken and the Department can tell the sire, the mother and so on. The rules regarding the ownership of a dog are very simple. It should come down to a couple of things. People should purchase a dog from a recognised agency, which is registered as the owner of the dog. There are many dogs sold on the black market, as everybody knows. People advertise them on Facebook, DoneDeal and everywhere else. Nobody knows where the dog was sourced, where it comes from, for example, a puppy farm, and whether it is chipped or not chipped.
Until that regulation is tightened up, there will be numerous problems regarding chipping.
I know all about chipping. I am involved in the horse industry. It is similar with a dog. When a chip is tampered with and removed from a dog, we can see that the chip has been removed because the hair grows back a little differently and is whiter or a greyer colour. Any good vet will be able to tell that the chip has been removed from a dog. However, tattooing of the ear is very simple. It only takes a small bit of dye in the ear and it will have a barcode with the date of birth of the dog. It cannot be removed. It is a tattoo, so it is there forever. It cuts out the theft of dogs completely. It has to cut it out because the tattoo is there forever.
These tattoos are relatively easy to put on a dog. They are a friendly but also safe way to identify them. Some of these dogs are worth thousands, for example, cockapoos, or we can go back to the Yorkshire terrier and other breeds. If people have dogs of that value, for their own security, they have to look at doing something outside of microchipping. I think tattooing is the only way we will stop theft. Unless people were to cut the ear off the dog and leave it without value, it is a security code that cannot be broken. We need to look at that going forward. If someone buys a dog, as well as a microchip, they should have a tattoo. That will cut out the theft of dogs, the black market and the money involved. That is where I stand.
The witnesses might be able to answer one question. What percentage of dogs that are reported stolen are returned? The market for some of these valuable dogs in Europe and England is huge. It is unfortunate that when we go to some of these fairs in the countryside, we see dogs being sold out of the back of vans, and so on. There has to be some law whereby, if people cannot prove where the dogs came from, they should be lifted. Until we get tough on that, this will be a recurring issue. Regulation is one thing. If we get stringent with the protocols on the registration of dogs, microchipping and tattooing, it would cut out a lot of the black market. Then, where anything is found to be stolen and people are caught, there should a stiff penalty and, certainly, they should never own an animal again. That needs to be put out there.
I thank the witnesses for their time. We had a discussion with the Department of agriculture forum regarding sheep worrying and concerns about dogs running off the leash in the hills. Everybody is responsible for their pet, let us be quite clear on that. We are talking about a cohort of people who love pets and treat them as family members. I have a sister who has no children but has a pet, and he is treated like one of her own. Everybody knows how attached people get. The legislation needs to be changed, but we also need to look at educating people as to where we purchase our animals and what source they come from. That would certainly help.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a very good point and reinforces the point made by our witnesses in terms of awareness. To be fair to the committee and our witnesses, this session is a little piece of the jigsaw in terms of raising that awareness. There was a question on the percentage recovered.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
I gave a table with the figures reported to the Garda.
For example, 17 dogs have been reported stolen this year. That is not an accurate figure. I have been keeping my own database of dogs that have gone missing since 2020. There are still hundreds missing that have never been found. The numbers found, are very small
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We are looking at small numbers returned.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
Very small, and the animals are found almost be accident. For example, the chihuahua that was stolen in Tipperary was wandering the streets of London and was picked up by someone. There was a French bulldog stolen in Galway. Two years later, it was found walking the streets of Dublin.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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They did not get their on their own. We know that.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Are owners ashamed to report it or is it that-----
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
No. Many people do not know they can report this. When people do report it, the outcome always depends who is in the Garda station. A lot of times they will ask for evidence, for example, if there is any CCTV footage or how does the person know that the dog has not just wandered down the road. In those circumstances, it is not even logged on the system. We need get a handle on it.
I was speaking to a garda who lives not far from me. She is a sergeant. She mentioned educating gardaí who take phone calls from people on how to log the information on the system. This is because much of the time the details are logged on the part of the system where stolen mobile phones and lawn mowers are logged. It is all over the place.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I will propose something to Ms O'Connor. Every area has a dog warden.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If my dog went missing tomorrow morning, the first place I would telephone is the pound to see if he had been taken there.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Is there a database in local pounds of dogs that have gone missing, regardless of whether they have been reported stolen or missing?
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a good point. We are missing opportunities-----
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There is an opportunity missed.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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-----where things could be logged. Obviously, the gardaí on duty do not always log the details. We know that, particularly in light of the figures. The Senator makes a good point insofar as there are things people will do, including telephoning their local pound. I know how busy the pounds are and how much pressure they are under. I would say whomever is in the pound will lift the phone, ask for a brief description of the dog and say, "No, it is not here." That is as much as they can do. There is no onus on them to record the details.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There should be an onus on the pound to say, "Do you have a chip number?"
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If you have a chip number, there should be a database between all pounds to say that a dog with a particular chip number has been reported lost, stolen or missing in, for example, the Longford area. That database covers Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and all the way to Dublin, so that if a dog comes in and they log the chip number, all of a sudden it is on their database. It is simple.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is law now that every dog, before sale, must be microchipped.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If you are purchasing a dog, you need to purchase it through a veterinary place where they can read them and chip them, and make sure.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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There is an element of responsibility on the person buying the dog and the person selling the dog, but separate from those two transactions, there is an onus on us also in a broader sense to start to do this. An information campaign, as suggested by the witnesses, would be valuable. To be fair to the committee, this is part of it. We are glad that they are here.
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
The national database goes back to the first Deputy's points. There needs to be a national database whereby the dots can be joined up and whereby local authorities, wardens, the Garda and the relevant animal welfare groups have access not only via the microchip but also in the context of identifying features, etc. It is paramount that this happens. It may seem like a lot of work, and it will be in the areas where the dogs are stolen, but it can be achieved through consistency. It is absolutely vital that it happens.
On Senator Brady's point about tattooing dogs, greyhounds are obviously tattooed because they are seen in some quarters as product for economic gain for greyhound racing. The WAG rescue group we are in predominantly rescues dogs on the restricted breed list. Numerous dogs still come to us with their ears mutilated or removed. These are dogs of the bulldog breed. Anything that can be mutilated or hacked off or any injury that can be given to a dog certainly happens in this country consistently. Whether it is tail-cutting, ear mutilation or whatever, we would be concerned if that was seen as a solution to the problem. Microchipping is the first port of call.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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To be fair, the Senator was not suggesting that is anything other than a part of-----
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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What we are hearing from you is that there needs to be a multilayered response.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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It is not one size fits all. It is not magic. To be fair, we are throwing everything into the mix here to make sure that we catch everything when it comes to thefts and returns.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We absolutely take that on board.
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
All of us come from a background of rescuing animals. Absolutely, there are so many areas that have to be addressed, including the catastrophic puppy farms dotted around the country. Ireland is known as the puppy farm capital of Europe. However, we are also in the business of dealing with rescue dogs. Many rescue dogs are the product of puppy farms. The majority of rescue groups will have robust criteria and procedures in place in circumstances where dogs are being adopted, but I suppose what we are trying to do out there on a different level is shift the narrative and the focus to highlight what is happening on these puppy farms across Ireland. We are also placing an emphasis on people adopting rescue dogs. Unfortunately, the pounds around the country are absolutely overflowing with dogs-----
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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They are overwhelmed.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Had Senator Brady anything to add?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I understand what Ms Fitzpatrick is saying regarding mutilation and one thing or another. It was just an added string to the bow, as I say.
Education is very important. Anybody who is doing their job right, we will say, is a registered breeder, would have got vaccinations from the vets and brought them in. On vaccination, they will have got chips and everything else. Any animal for sale that does not have a chip should not be tolerated by the public. It is simple. Where an animal does not have a chip, there is a problem. It has either come from a puppy farm or from somebody who is not a registered breeder.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That would have to be part of any awareness campaign because I genuinely think that people do not know.
I have a few questions to ask. I will not keep our guests very much longer. I read a study a number of years ago in relation to the fact that we do not quantify. By the way, I am a cat person.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I did dislike dogs, to be fair. I read a study which indicated that governments or whomever is responsible should be looking at the quantity of pet food that is sold as an indication. If we were to measure the amount of pet food that is sold against the number of licences, I imagine that we would be talking about a very small number, on the one hand, and a large amount, on the other. That is a way to give people an idea of the difference between the number of licences held and the number that could or potentially should be held. People have quite a relaxed attitude to it because they see that it is not maybe taken that seriously. It is not considered an offence other than, as Ms O'Connor said, in the way the theft of a mobile phone or another piece of property is. It is not considered separate, but we also do not quantify the scale. We do not have the number of dog warden to match up to the number of dogs, but we also do not have a mechanism of measuring, except by means of the licences. I am sure everyone in the room and watching in is responsible and has a licence.
In truth, people do not. They are taking a chance on the high likelihood they will never be asked for it. A lot of people also do not know. Should we also be taking steps to quantify the number of pets? Maybe it can be dismissed as a small issue, but it is huge.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We do not measure it. I ask for the witnesses' thoughts on the pet food. I also have another question. It is to do with dogs stolen to order. We need to emphasise that this is an activity related to the type of crime we see covered under the heading of gangland or organised crime. It is a serious element of that. It is not a small thing. It is part of a wider criminal enterprise. You often hear about awareness campaigns. People say that if you are using recreational drugs and think you are not harming anybody, actually you are contributing to a major organised crime industry. I think it is the same. I defer to the witnesses' expertise, if they will address those.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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No, it was a British magazine. It was a British study.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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There is a big gap. That was my point. You have to be using something to measure it. If there are dog licences for 1,000 dogs, but pet food is sold to feed 50,000 dogs, then you know there is a gap. We should be using other mechanisms to look at how we quantify the sheer number of pets out there.
Mrs. Louise O'Tuama:
I am rescuing cats at the moment, and I am getting loads of leftover food from Dogs Trust. They actually took the cat food in, even though they are dog people, because they did not want it to go to waste. That is then being distributed around so many different rescues. I do not know if it would correlate.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a good way to do it.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We often do not harness the power of the census.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We should explore that a little, if you can.
Ms Lisa O'Connor:
There seems to be a pattern with certain horse fairs around the country. You find that everything goes quiet, and then building up to these horse fairs, loads of dogs, even little designer dogs, start to be lifted. There is a big horse fair in Ballinasloe, County Galway, next month. You will find more people reporting that their dog has been taken. A lot of people would advise that they might want to go to the horse fair, and they might find it. Stolen dogs are found there.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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There are those car boot markets that are set up as well. I know that is a problem.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We cannot say enough about education, information and raising awareness. To be fair, we should come at it from the perspective that most people want to do the right thing.
Most people love their pets and want to protect them. Even most people who do not have pets think there should be rules in place to ensure pets and companion animals are protected. People maybe think there is a lot more protection out there than there actually is. We could have a bit of work to do in raising awareness. That is why we are delighted the witnesses are here, and to be fair, that they have stuck with this. I know they have been at it for a while. The danger here is that there is a bit of social protection, which does the licences. There is a bit of agriculture because it deals with animals. There is a bit of justice because of An Garda, and a bit of housing, local government and heritage because the local authorities have a big role. It is one of those things where when everybody is responsible, sometimes nobody is responsible. As a committee we can have consideration as to what we can do to focus the attention of the Oireachtas onto this issue. I know that will form part of our discussions. Do members have further questions?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is also about informing the public. You go to these fairs and markets, and you see this cute puppy in a handbag and hear a story about how the poor woman died and that’s how they got him, and they want to find him a good home. He is only €500 when he should be €2,000. You should know that if it sounds wrong, it is wrong.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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If it sounds too good to be true, it generally is.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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This is going on the whole time. As Ms O'Connor said, you will unfortunately see an increase in the next two weeks coming up to Ballinasloe. I attend Ballinasloe every year. You always see the trading of puppies out of the back of vans and in cages. In fairness to the ISPCA, it has always been on hand in Ballinasloe. I have seen them on numerous occasions lifting dogs off so-called people who had them in cages and being unfairly handled and treated. I stand up for the powers that be to say they are on hand. However, there is always that criminality.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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It is the link with criminality that I think would shock a lot of people. I thank our witnesses for sharing the information with us and continuing their campaign and the work they do, and for allowing the committee to be part of that debate. We will consider what they have given to us and how we can advance this. We will talk to the secretariat and consider it ourselves. We will certainly do whatever is in our power to move this matter forward. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the committee. Gabh mo leithscéal, Senator Flaherty.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I am thinking about the situation in England. Pet insurance is more popular in the UK and is something we do not look at all. I would say that is one of the reasons why, if your dog is stolen in the UK, you have to report it for the insurance company. Maybe that is part of the education too, to try to get more people here to insure their dogs.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a good call.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate it puts an additional cost on people, but that is probably why we are behind the UK on this. That is an important first step for us and then the legislation afterwards. If you have to pay for insurance for you dog, you are certainly then going to report it to An Garda when it is stolen. I also have an observation in defence of Ballinasloe. That would not be a cover for any nefarious activities. I appreciate everything is sold there, but I would say the authorities are proactive. I have been going since I was a small, fat child and I have seen that consistently.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That point is well made, but notwithstanding the occasion, it is a good point to make that there is that link between pet theft and criminality without naming any particular venue at all.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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We did not buy any dogs in Ballinasloe.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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No, but that is not to say this is not happening; it is.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There are numerous ads on DoneDeal.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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They come up in different apps under cattle.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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When we talk about the link between pet theft and criminality, we are talking about monitoring the situation in the same way we have to monitor all forms of criminal activity. The point is well made. We should be careful about naming specific websites and talking too much about them, only because for every one we name, there are ten that we do not name. Let us be fair.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not all. It is on social media, in the mainstream media and on WhatsApp groups. It is right across the board, not just at horse fairs. It is on other occasions and at other markets. If we isolate one, we miss the fact that this is happening all around us. It is not a case of saying "I am not going to such and such a market, so therefore I am not part of it." It is actually happening all around us.
Ms Brenda Fitzpatrick:
The point about pet insurance is interesting. It would be interesting to dig deeper into that to see what the correlation is. I am not entirely convinced about, but if a pet is stolen in England, the owner stops paying insurance on that pet. There are people in this country who have pet insurance as well. Many people find it hard to get pet insurance. It depends on the breed of dog, for example, if you have a restricted breed, the age of the dog, underlying medical conditions and so on. I hope that will not be a factor. It is certainly something that insurance companies must start to revise.
We are here today to support the work Lisa has done for all of these years. She has never given up, even in the darkest time for this country during Covid, when so many animals were either being stolen or bred in back gardens and on puppy farms, when there were no consequences regarding dogs such as XL bullies, and when some animals were just being killed. We are also here as a voice for the ladies sitting behind us, who are representative of so many dog owners around the country. When your family member is stolen from you, you never get your life back. Your life is never the same again. The impact of losing that animal lasts and stays with you forever. It impacts on your mental well-being and family dynamic. The consequences are so upsetting and devastating.
We have come to a point in our country where things must change. We cannot just sit around talking about things any more. There are simple measures that we can all put in place to effect change. I refer here to a change in the legislation to recognise animals as companion animals. In time, that will hopefully lead to a further status of emotional support being granted. The national database of stolen animals must be shared across all counties. We must look at the punitive measures in place for those who are found guilty. They must be on a live register that can be accessed nationwide. People must also be banned from owning animals again. We must also look at whether the penalty should be financial or should involve imprisonment. Progressing this is a really important measure for the House to take. Once this is in place, things like the national education campaign and so on will flow as well. I thank members for their time.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Fitzpatrick very much. I ask committee members to remain for a few moments because we have a small piece of business to finish. I thank the witnesses most sincerely, not just for today - obviously this is a very important part of it - but for all of the work they have done and will continue to do. We can tell from the presentations how passionate they feel.
I want our visitors in the Gallery to know that they are heard and seen and that we understand the devastation that is wrought on families and individuals because a pet is part of the family. It is not the same as another piece of property. I really hope our guests in the Gallery understand that here today in Leinster House we have heard the impact and we understand. We absolutely feel for all of the people who are distressed and upset, because it is just huge.
We know, and we hear them. Their advocates have spoken really well on their behalf this afternoon. As a committee, we will consider what we have heard today and how best we can assist with this for the future. Go raibh míle maith agaibh agus slán agus beannacht. I will suspend the meeting for a few moments to allow the witnesses to leave.