Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 25 September 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Financial Statements 2024: Houses of the Oireachtas Commission
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will engage with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to discuss its 2024 appropriation accounts. We are joined by the following officials from the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission: Mr. Peter Finnegan, Clerk of the Dáil and Secretary General and Accounting Officer of the Houses of the Oireachtas Service; Mr. Michael Errity, deputy secretary general; Ms Annette Connolly, assistant secretary, director of parliamentary information and research services; Mr. Ciarán Doyle, assistant secretary and chief information officer; Mr. Ciarán Lawler, assistant secretary, director of corporate and Member services; Ms Mellissa English, assistant secretary, chief parliamentary legal adviser; and Mr. Donnacha McKeon, assistant principal officer.
We have received apologies from Deputies Geoghegan and McAuliffe.
We are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. They are all very welcome here this morning.
I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference you may make to other persons in your evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present, or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that you have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything you say at the meeting. However, you are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The primary function of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is to provide the services necessary to support the functioning of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The commission operates under the framework established by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003.
The commission’s appropriation account is a cash-based record of receipts and payments compared to the estimates provided for the year. The accounting framework is similar to that applied across Government Departments and offices, which present cash-based appropriation accounts for Votes, supported by some accrual-based notes. Funding for the commission is provided for statutorily every three years, with estimates proposed annually to draw down a tranche of the three-year budget. The overall funding approved for the three years 2022 to 2024 amounted to €462 million. By the end of 2024, a total of €461 million had been used. The commission’s account recorded gross expenditure of €167 million in 2024 distributed across the key service areas. Pay-related expenses amounted to approximately 72% of total spending.
Arising from a change in accounting policies across Government Departments and offices, the statement of financial position in note 2 records a substantial increase in accrued expenses. This included an accrual of €8.25 million in respect of termination of employment payments to former secretarial staff that were paid in 2025, following the elections, and an accrual of €4.7 million in respect of substantial accumulated untaken staff leave. The statement on internal financial control outlines the steps being taken by the Houses of the Oireachtas Service to bring untaken leave into line with standard Civil Service guidelines, which generally require a "use or lose" approach.
Payments in respect of the pensions of former Members of the Houses are accounted for in the appropriation account in the form of an annual grant to Ciste Pinsean Thithe an Oireachtais. This grant amounted to €13 million in 2024. A separate account is prepared and presented in respect of the operation of the pension fund.
Further expenditure related to the operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas in 2024 was borne on other accounts. The Leinster House campus, and other premises occupied by the Houses of the Oireachtas, are State-owned and are provided by the Office of Public Works on a rent-free basis. A notional rent for the premises, estimated by the OPW at €5.93 million in 2024, is reported in the commission’s account. Other expenses covered directly by the OPW on a non-recovery basis totalled €1.94 million. This included the costs of maintenance and any capital works carried out on the various buildings and grounds.
Payments from the Central Fund of the Exchequer in 2024 included parliamentary activities allowances paid to political parties and to Independent Members, totalling €9.2 million, and funding for political parties related to their share of the vote in Dáil elections, totalling just under €7.5 million.
The operation of the Oireachtas catering and bar services is accounted for separately from the appropriation account. A summary of the transactions is included as note 7.3 to the account.
I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the commission’s 2024 account. In my report, I drew attention to two matters disclosed by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control. First, he disclosed a material level of procurement non-compliance, which was of the order of €1.3 million and, second, an independent review identified weaknesses in the management of a project to build a bicycle shelter on the Oireachtas campus.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I will now move to the opening statement of Mr. Peter Finnegan on behalf of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes to make his opening statement.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
A Chathaoirligh agus a chomhaltaí, fáiltím roimh an deis seo teacht os comhair an Choiste um Chuntais Phoiblí agus cabhrú le scrúdú a dhéanamh ar chuntais Choimisiún Thithe an Oireachtais don bhliain 2024. Before I turn to the commission's accounts for 2024, I would like to take this opportunity to briefly reflect on my time as Clerk of the Dáil and Secretary General. I would also like to acknowledge the commitment and hard work demonstrated by the staff of the Houses over these years.
When I was appointed as Clerk in 2013, the country was starting to emerge from a very severe economic crisis, which led to deep cuts in public expenditure and significant reductions in staffing. Ireland's reputation, politically and economically, was at a low ebb and there was a lot of rebuilding work to do. One of the first real opportunities to restore our political reputation was Ireland's Presidency of the European Union in 2013. We took this opportunity very seriously. We committed to ensuring that our national Parliament availed of every opportunity to engage with our European counterparts, thereby rebuilding and ensuring durable working relations at all levels across the EU. The success of the parliamentary dimension of the Presidency provided a foundation for the rebuilding of relationships with parliamentarians across the EU. That period also saw us actively develop Oireachtas TV. One of the first major parliamentary events to be televised was the banking inquiry in 2015. There was a huge public appetite at that time for access to what was happening in Leinster House. Being in a position to broadcast on both TV and the web brought accountability and democracy into the homes of those who wished to participate.
The 2016 general election saw another significant change to how the House operates. As you will remember, the Ceann Comhairle was elected for the first time by secret ballot, strengthening the authority of the office. The d'Hondt system for committee Chairs was also used for the first time ensuring a more proportional system for their appointment.
The newly elected Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, led a comprehensive programme of parliamentary reform, from the establishment of the Business Committee to that of the special committee on Sláintecare and the Committee on Budgetary Oversight. We also had the establishment of the Parliamentary Budget Office in 2017 and the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, which was placed on a statutory footing in 2019. These initiatives allowed the Houses to progress in a manner that provided greater accountability and additional opportunities for participation, alongside the provision of expert and professional services to Members.
One of the projects I am very proud to have been involved in is the restoration of historic Leinster House. As the national Parliament, we are custodians of this building on behalf of the public. A two-year project, led by the OPW, was completed on time in 2019 at a cost of €17 million. The restoration of that historic building should ensure its ability to weather a few storms, both political and weather related, in the years ahead.
Even though historic Leinster House was under restoration, the Houses were still able to play a major role in the Decade of Centenaries. The centenary of women's suffrage was commemorated in 2018 and the centenary of the first sitting of Dáil Éireann was marked by a special commemorative sitting in the Mansion House in January 2019. We celebrated Seanad 100 in 2022. It is not often that an institution can feel a sense of pride; however, these commemorations did just that. They rekindled and reminded us of our valuable history of parliamentary democracy and the many people who strove to provide a lasting legacy.
Then, of course, Covid hit. This was undoubtedly one of the greatest challenges the country and the Houses of the Oireachtas Service have ever faced. We all recall how the Dáil had to move to the convention centre to ensure the safety of Members and staff and so that the Houses could function to pass legislation to support our economy and people. Remote working, virtual meetings and off-site meetings became the norm. This demonstrated that the Houses of the Oireachtas Service comprises resilient staff who rise to challenges, are innovative and are deeply committed to ensuring our national Parliament can operate regardless of the circumstances.
When Covid finally abated, we resumed normal parliamentary activity in Leinster House. We welcomed back our visitors and resumed our education programme and public engagement. We hosted several major international conferences and held historic joint sittings, including the address by President Joe Biden in 2023. There were also other important initiatives, including the forum on a family-friendly and inclusive Parliament and the forum on safe participation in public life. It has been extremely busy and productive since 2013.
On a personal level, I would like to thank most sincerely my colleagues for their support and hard work. It gives me a great sense of pride to be leaving my role in the knowledge that the systems and policies in place will underpin the future of the Houses of the Oireachtas for many years to come. As I look back on my 29 years, it has been an enormous privilege for me to have served here.
With the Chair's indulgence, there are a couple of further points I would like to make, if that is okay.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
During my time as Secretary General in the Houses of the Oireachtas, a number of issues have emerged as particularly significant. First is the issue of security. Last Wednesday, business resumed in the Houses and barriers were erected and roads closed around the Leinster House complex. It is a sad reflection of the level of threat that has emerged over the last number of years that such measures are now required. As a society, we need to reflect on this. In 2023, following a significant number of security and safety incidents involving Members and their staff, it was necessary to implement a security scheme for Members. The security requirements allowance is a contribution, now at a higher level, towards the installation costs of personal security measures for a Member and their staff, the Member's offices or the Member's home. Take-up is low, and we need to work with Members to determine why this is the case. However, security will remain a significant feature in the years ahead.
Second, there is the issue of universal access and, in particular, ensuring that Leinster House is an accessible and welcoming place for all Members and visitors. Following an accessibility audit, the service has been working with the Office of Public Works to prioritise projects to meet the recommendations. This will be a multi-annual programme but it is worth noting that a number of accessibility improvements have been completed or are currently under way. We will continue to work to improve the accessibility of the building over the coming years.
Third, the Oireachtas has been on a journey of significant and necessary digital transformation. Modernising our IT infrastructure is essential to provide a robust 21st-century service to our national Parliament and to support the work of what is a large and complex organisation. Continuous improvements in ICT are necessary in running our business and protecting our institution from cyberattacks. Digital infrastructure transformation and cybersecurity have thus become major elements of our non-pay budget.
This is only a flavour of some of the things that we do in the Houses. However, the scale and breadth of the work undertaken by the Houses continues to grow. In a period of rapid change, our parliamentary system must continue to evolve and serve the people of this country. I would like to finish by thanking the Members of these Houses for their support over the years. Gabhaim buíochas leo arís as an gcuireadh a bheith anseo inniu. Beidh áthas orm a gceisteanna a fhreagairt anois.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Finnegan. I note that we will suspend the meeting for ten to 15 minutes at 12 o'clock. We will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Eoghan Kenny, who has 15 minutes. All other members will then have ten minutes and if time permits at the end of that, I will allow members back in for a shorter second round of questions. Deputy Kenny now has the floor.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank the Chair and welcome everybody. I wish Mr. Finnegan extremely well, and I thank him for his courteous engagement since the very beginning. I thank all of his staff and colleagues for the positions they are in in the Oireachtas. I am sure the Oireachtas would not run efficiently or effectively if we did not have these positions available to us, so I thank them.
I want to focus on the broadcasting of the Oireachtas. The cost of televising these proceedings in the Oireachtas for 2024 was estimated at €3.5 million. The actual cost in 2024 was €5.2 million. Mr. Finnegan has indicated that there were differences in relation to services from the previous year. Could he outline why there was such an underestimation, considering we knew the sitting schedule for the entire year 2024?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
First, 2024 was a general election year. In doing our estimates, we would make full provision for the full 12 months. Effectively, there were two months of 2024 where broadcast services were not happening. That would be the main reason. I might take the Deputy down through the main figures, if that is helpful.
On the broadcast contract, there are four main headings under which expenditure is incurred. The first is management and administration fees. The spend on those in 2024 was €492,000. Second is maintenance and technical fees. The spend there was €447,190. The third is operation and production fees, which were €324,720. They are all fixed fees under the contract, regardless of the level of activity. The total of those fees came to €1,263,910. In addition to that, there are content production fees. Content production was €522,000. That is a variable figure based on the number of hours and with a general election, there would be fewer hours than in a normal year.
In addition, there are other elements in the broadcast budget that are kind of outside of the contract.
In 2024, we replaced some critical hardware, so that cost €1.78 million. There was some work done on what is called the legacy PetaSite. The PetaSite is the storage unit used to store all of the broadcast footage. That cost €61,000. There are other costs then. The main ones would be carriage and paths. That is effectively the fees we pay to Sky and Saorview to broadcast the channel. That cost €785,000.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I might move on if that is okay.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I have met the Oireachtas broadcasters on a number of occasions now, as have some of my colleagues in the party. They have raised significant concerns. The first question is quite obvious. They have requested to meet Mr. Finnegan, as has their trade union, SIPTU, on a number of occasions but he has not met them. Is there a reason for that?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
There is. I am a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the commission is a contracting party with their employer, so I am in a position where I am very constrained in what I can do. I cannot actually reach in and speak to the employees of a service provider that is providing a contract to us.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has Mr. Finnegan ever said to Pi Comms, which I presume has the contract right now, "Employees of yours have written to me to request a meeting with me. Can you discuss it with them or is it perhaps feasible to meet with them even though they are your employees?"
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has Mr. Finnegan spoken to that company, which is the employer, to say, "A number of your employees have written to me to speak with me and meet with me"?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Mr. Finnegan spoke to Pi Comms about that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What was the communication there?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did the managing director say that Mr. Finnegan was entitled to meet with his employees? Did Mr. Finnegan ask that question?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Does the commission want to actually meet with the employees?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
I think the commission is very constrained because it is the contracting authority. The commission communicated that to a number of people over the past number of months. One further thing I could add is that the other relevant thing here is that there is a live procurement going on at the moment for the new broadcasting service.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In the VFM analysis prepared in July 2025, looking at the three scenarios, scenario three outlines that all 37 staff will now be full-time staff as opposed to the current 12 full-time and 25 part-time staff. Do we have a costing on scenario three where it would remain the same, that is, having 12 full-time staff and 25 part-time staff, or why was it the case that scenario three was outlined as being 35 full-time staff as opposed to the current 12 full-time staff?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay. Does Pi Comms receive payments during the recess time?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Mr. Finnegan might go back to the costs to the Oireachtas Pi Comms received during the recess times.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There is difficulty in relation to the maintaining and replacing of the equipment. Is all of the broadcasting equipment owned by the Oireachtas?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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If I am correct, the Houses of the Oireachtas spent €427,000 in 2024, along with €1.78 million. I think they were the figures that were given in regard to the equipment. That is a cost to the Exchequer.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
The figure of €1.7 million was a project where we were replacing critical hardware, as Mr. Finnegan stated. There is the committee room here but there is a corresponding room across the road that looks after the production of this committee in terms of how the cameras are mixed and how the audio is mixed into it. There are six rooms across the road. They contain some hardware and some software that was coming to end of life and had to be replaced.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What I find extremely difficult is that there is the cost to the Exchequer of the broadcasting equipment but we have a private company here and there is no cost to it at all. The only cost to the private company is the payment of wages.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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They are using our equipment.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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We are replacing the equipment when it is broken or when it needs to be renovated or fixed. Every single euro we give the company, the only cost to it is wages.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In no other entity would that happen.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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If a private company was offering a service, it would surely own the equipment and provide it. If equipment was outdated, I am sure it would have to replace it. If something broke, I am sure it would have to fix it.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
We own the equipment because it is a asset for the Houses of the Oireachtas. However, this is very specialised equipment. We would not expect civil servants who are coming up the normal pathway of the Civil Service to be able to operate this equipment or, in a larger sense, to be able to look at the wider broadcasting industry, at the trends there and the technologies coming up, and to plan and help us to plan how we will map our way through what is now an increasingly digital and software-based environment, from where it was.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It is an asset for us, so what is the benefit of outsourcing the employment then in terms of the broadcast workers? What do we need that company for? Why can we not employ those broadcast workers ourselves?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
There are several types of broadcast workers. Behind the part-time workers who are currently in dispute with the service provider, there is also a full-time staff of engineers, editors and producers. There are different types of roles. The specific reason for outsourcing, and it would not really have been outsourcing because all of the part-time workers have been offered contracts with Pi Comms and the majority of them have contracts with Pi Comms, but the reason they are part-time is because the work they do and are specialist in only occurs when the Houses and committees are sitting. However, we have a broadcast channel, Oireachtas TV, which is broadcast 24-7 52 weeks of the year on Sky, Virgin Media, Saorview and other digital platforms. That channel has to be produced, maintained and monitored as well because we have contracts with all of these broadcast platforms.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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On that point, and I am conscious of the fact I do not want to disrespect any employee of the Oireachtas, what is the difference between a broadcast worker and a bar manager?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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They are all working 52 weeks of the year, so Mr. McKeon is saying, but a bar manager is employed by the Oireachtas and a broadcast worker is not.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
No, again, there are different types of broadcast workers. There are full-time broadcast workers who are working for Pi Comms. There are no broadcast workers actually working for or employed directly by the Houses of the Oireachtas. All of these workers, whether part-time or full-time, are working for Pi Communications. They are specialised roles. A barman is a specialised role as well so I would not claim to know too much about that. We go out to look for a solution for services. We do not go out to market to say we specifically want this number of people to do a specific number of things. As a Civil Service, we do not have the expertise in broadcasting and that is what we are going out for. We are going out for expertise, advice and people who can run the technology we will need to keep pace in the really dynamic broadcasting environment that is happening, and changing as quickly as in any time I have ever seen.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Every Christmas, every Easter and every summer, they have to sign on to social welfare. For two weeks or perhaps a month at Christmas - I do not know how long -there is a break. They are expected to sign on or to try to get another role. I am sure that will be the answer. They are free to get another role, but we also expect them to come back on the day the Oireachtas is sitting. The difficulty there is there is probably no opportunity for them to take up a role in that space of two or three weeks or whatever the break is. We know ourselves, calling a spade and spade, that they are going to have to sign on to social welfare. We have talked extensively in the Oireachtas now about the role of secretaries and caretakers, for example, across the country and them not being civil servants and not having access to Civil Service status. It is quite a similar situation. The difficulty, having met all of them, is how we could possibly stand over the treatment they are receiving from the Oireachtas. I genuinely do not think we could. I, and I am sure the majority of people across here, do not agree with having people working within our Oireachtas and the difficulty they of having to sign on for social welfare payments during each recess. Surely our ambition should be to employ people in broadcasting services using our assets, as was said, to give them Civil Service status, as opposed to giving the contract to an organisation like Pi Communications whose only expenditure, for every cent it makes, is wages. That is the only expenditure it has. That is the difficulty I have. The lack of respect in particular shown to these workers has been quite disgraceful, to be totally honest. I have great sympathy for them and I do not think we are going in any way, shape or form in the correct direction in respecting workers' rights. It should be coming directly from the Oireachtas. That is where the starting point should be and it is not happening.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
Can I speak to that? I want to make clear that there are a lot of constrictions on what I can say for a lot of reasons. There is commercial information that is sensitive and that the service provider would consider sensitive, and there is the live RFT going on at the moment. I cannot really speak to their specific service model. What I can say is, if there was to be a Civil Service broadcast function, we would still need to get expertise from outside. There will always be a type of company, a type of service provider, in contract with us. The Civil Service is simply not living in that area and it is changing so much. There would always be a management, consultancy or expertise role that would be needed. I do not think there would be ever any situation where we would not be having an external contractor or some kind of broadcasting company.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It would only be a case of the Oireachtas hiring an experienced person in the role.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Deputy Kenny, you are over your time now. Maybe we would just get a few concluding comments. Hopefully there will be a second round.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
I was in the broadcasting space for 15 years before that. I need the expertise from outside because, in terms of administering the unit and all the other things that are on my desk, I cannot be at the seminars, I cannot be following the technology as quickly. We need that outside expertise to help us manage.
On a personal note, I have worked freelance in the industry. I know how tough it can be. I do know that this is a dispute between employers and employees. Plenty of times I have worked freelance without any offer of a part-time contract. These workers do have a part-time contract and they do have a path to redress, which is the WRC. If they cannot find an agreement at the WRC, they can go to the Labour Court. We would encourage the employees and the employer to use those paths and get a solution on this.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank Mr. McKeon and express best wishes to Mr. Finnegan.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Finnegan for his opening statement. As someone who would still regard myself as relatively new in here, his legacy is written on the walls and is very clear to see. I wish him the very best and commend him and everyone who works as part of his team for continued success into the future. I really mean that.
I think what we are starting to hear is a sense of the real frustration and concern with regard to the part-time broadcast workers. I would like to give a portion of my time to that if I can. If people from the commission had met them, they would see it very quickly as well. If we can get straight down to it, is it a fait accompli that the current tender runs its course or does Mr. Finnegan have it within his power to press pause on that tender as it is?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
The commission considered the tender at its last meeting before the summer recess. The members also had a lot of the information that the workers had provided to them as well as some of the costings that we circulated. The situation that we are faced with is that the broadcasting contract expires on 31 December. We have to have certainty in terms of the provision of broadcasting in 2025, so we have to go to tender for certainty, because otherwise for the people who watch the proceedings here and RTÉ that shows the proceedings, there is the possibility that there would be no broadcast footage if we do not have a tender in place. From an accounting point of view, Mr. McCarthy mentioned the procurement issues that are in the account this year. We would also be immediately in that space because we would be non-compliant with procurement. For all of those reasons, the commission took the decision that the broadcast tender should be issued.
Just to go back to the point about the commission and the workers, the commission was very conscious that there is an industrial relations process that is ongoing at the moment and did not want to encroach on that. That was the big reason the commission did not meet the workers.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I accept that.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
If I could just mention one other thing if that is okay, there would be massive respect for the workers in the Oireachtas. Just on my part, in my earlier career I was broadcast manager in the Oireachtas. I was not quite as good as Donnacha but I tried to do his job at the time. I would know some of those people. They are very decent, sincere people. I would have worked with them over there around 2007 or 2009. I do get the situation. The difficulty on the commission's side is that the workers concerned are the employees of Pi Communications. There is a dispute and a process there.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is the crux of it, but that process is being facilitated by this arrangement. That is the contract that was signed for the last five-year term and now we are going back into a retendering process that is open. These people whom collectively we have great respect for do not know on a Monday if they are working on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. That is not sustainable. The bit I would really like to get to, notwithstanding Mr. McKeon's point that external expertise is needed, I would buy that if this was a one-off project, but it is not. This is something we know are going to have a consistent need for. We have to raise real question marks over this. Has the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation been involved in developing this framework as to whether it is value for money? There are question marks over the nature of it, jumping from 12 full-time staff to 37 full-time staff. I think that is disproportionate then in portraying the ultimate cost to the taxpayer while standing over practices that would call into question issues like dignity in the workplace, the ability to apply for mortgages or start a family. This is reality for them. Going back to my first question, does Mr. Finnegan have the power, notwithstanding the procurement process, to press pause on this right now and to ensure that before we sign any new contract, we prioritise the future of these workers?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could we establish a technical grade in the time that we have for workers?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that the tender?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Mr. Finnegan confident that will include standard rates of pay for these experts?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Yes. If PI Communications and its employees sit down together and come to an agreement that is fair and acceptable to both parties, the tender we have is capable of accommodating that. The commission, as the contracting authority, I believe would accept any outcome from an industrial relations process and that would be incorporated in the contract.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Finnegan also mentioned the move towards IT services. I am starting to sound like a little broken record here. That move has been considerable within the Houses and the commission as well. Will he please, if possible in 60 seconds, summarise how that process has worked? Has it gone to plan? Have there been any surprises within that significant development regarding IT infrastructure?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
To start with, digitisation is Government policy so everybody is doing digital developments. On our side, we really started around 2018. We had very antiquated infrastructure in the Oireachtas. It was an infrastructure that was also extremely vulnerable to cyberattacks. We literally had to build it from the foundations up. We have done a good deal of that in terms of the foundational stuff and also in terms of some of the systems we have. Over the past four or five years we have placed a strong emphasis on digital parliament. The reason for that is the Dáil is a Legislature so we need digital technologies to enable Members to do their work, to enable the Dáil to function properly and to manage the throughput into the Dáil. We have placed a lot of emphasis on that. We are now moving towards the corporate side. We recently installed a new financial system. One of the big things about the Oireachtas is we are a large, complex organisation. We have 1,500 people. We have a budget of €565 million. We need good infrastructure to run the organisation. For example, we have 1,000 committee meetings a year, with 3,000 witnesses. That type of operation cannot run be without ICT. That has been our big focus.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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To Mr. Finnegan's knowledge, have any of those projects run over?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
There is one in the account. We manage them extremely tightly. We have a really tight governance process in the Oireachtas. There is both an external and an internal governance process. Externally, all our plans have to be approved by the Department of public expenditure, by what is called the digital government oversight unit, DGOU. Any project over €5 million is subject to specific arrangements with peer review by external people. That is the first point. Second, within the Oireachtas, our governance system is extremely demanding in terms of projects and that is how it should be. One of the challenges with-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have one more question. Mr. Finnegan has covered that comprehensively. I thank him for his time. I am drawn to one piece with regard to non-procurement, and that is the €522,000 cost on venue hire. What was that event? What was it for? Where was it?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
It was an OSCE conference. Ireland has been a member of the OSCE for 50 years and we have never held a conference in Dublin for the OSCE. They came to us in 2019 asking us to host one of their big meetings. There was a meeting in the autumn every year. Our own delegation was at that time led by former Deputy Michael Creed and was supportive of hosting an event in Dublin. People love coming to Dublin for conferences as you would expect. It is good, reputationally, for the country. All this happened around 2019. We did our assessment. The conference attracts about 400 people. Break-out rooms, security and so on are required. At that stage only one venue was actually capable of taking a conference of that scale, and that was the convention centre. Then Covid-19 hit and the conference, which was due to take place in 2021, was postponed to 2024. If we were doing a conference such as that now, there would be more venues available to us. We would do a procurement whereby we would go out to all those venues, obtain prices and choose the most economically advantageous tender. That conference was of its time.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the price agreed in 2021 the price that was eventually paid in 2024 or was there a difference?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the commission officials for attending. I am a new Deputy and I am enjoying the experience. It has been made so much smoother by the experience I have had in my day-to-day work here in the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Oireachtas commission runs a great show. It runs a fantastic operation, whether it is the Parliamentary Budget Office, the Parliamentary questions office or the legal office. This facility is run very well. The commission runs a professional organisation. Its digitisation strategy has been a success to date. The fact I can look at my phone and see when my speaking time is coming up allows us to be more efficient, which should, hopefully, yield better results for the country in time to come.
As with every organisation, nothing is perfect. I will go through a few key issues. I appreciate the assistance of the commission in delving into them. My colleagues Deputies Kenny and Farrelly have hit on the Oireachtas commission broadcast workers very well. I did meet with them as well. In an ideal world it would be a good idea to try to have as much skill and talent as possible in-house. Would there be anything to stop the 35 workers coming together, forming their own entity and trying to procure the work?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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They could submit a tender. That should be considered because they are all on part-time contracts. A company is making a profit I do not know what the profit is so I will not speak to that. Based on what I heard from the broadcast workers, taking what they are paid, as against the amount that is going into this, if they are not going be get permanent employment with the Houses of the Oireachtas, and if the company is not seemingly playing ball at the moment, it would be worthwhile for them to consider putting in a tender as a collective.
What is the total wages bill of the entire Houses of the Oireachtas? A rough figure will be sufficient.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is an accrual at the moment for more than €4 million for annual leave. How is that managed? Is that an excessive figure? I asked for the total wage bill because I wanted to do the mental calculation of the percentage. Is that a risk to the Oireachtas, given such an annual leave accrual?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a €4 million accrual on a €50 million wage bill. Is that a risk?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
No, it is not. This is a legacy issue that goes back many years. It is in the accounts for the first time because of the accounting standards that Mr. McCarthy referenced. We have put in place a policy for dealing with it. The policy is a use-it-or-lose-it system where employees will have four years to work down their leave.
That has been negotiated with the trade unions. I might ask Mr. Errity if he wants to-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Has there been a policy on carryover? How many days are people allowed carry over, or how is the service working this?
Mr. Michael Errity:
-----but I might spend a minute explaining the issue here. Traditionally, particularly people on the procedural side, as the Deputy would guess, could only take leave during recess. By the nature of every organisation getting busier, the recess here is now effectively down in the summer to the August month, so the opportunities for procedural staff to take leave are fairly limited. Also, it is provided in the terms and conditions of every Member of the Oireachtas's staff that they must attend to follow the sittings of the Houses and their committees, so that limitation is already in the contract of employment. We recognised we had a problem and we have come to an arrangement with the unions, effective from 1 April 2025, that over a four-year period all legacy leave must be worked down. Obviously, people will be working with their manager and the records are kept in HR. Already, from April to August, we have seen an 11% reduction in that figure-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is good. I just wanted to see that was not a risk-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----and that there was a plan in place and the service is managing that.
Something about the broadcast workers that would be of benefit is the publishing of purchase orders. Does the service publish its purchase orders on its website, the same as all other State bodies?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Anything the service spends money on, over €20,000 essentially, has to be published on the service's website.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but all State bodies, and I have put in a huge number of parliamentary questions on this, publish their purchase orders-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It does not apply to the Houses of the Oireachtas. Jesus, ye got away there. That is okay.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay. We are going to have to look at that. I have three minutes left. The service cannot publish the purchase orders. Would it be willing to publish them online?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I might send the officials a few examples-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----of different organisations and how they do it. It would be of benefit to the service, its competitiveness and everyone in the Oireachtas for transparency. At the end of the day, this has to be the most transparent place.
It would be remiss of me not to ask about the bike shed and the security hut.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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As they are on the grounds of the Houses of the Oireachtas, the commission obviously had to have some involvement. My understanding is the OPW carried out the works and spent the money. The saddest thing is that I, like the rest of the TDs, bring a lot of people up to visit Dáil Éireann, and the number one attraction is the bike shed. People want to see this famous bike shed and that is so sad because there is so much brilliance and history in this building and that bike shed has taken away so much of the good work the officials do. It is done now and over a year has passed. What lessons have been learned since that?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Before I talk about lessons, I want to acknowledge the reputational damage that bike shed caused to Members and to the Houses. This time last year we were in the middle of it and the public anger was fully justified, 110%. In terms of lessons, what we are doing now with the OPW is that when we are discussing projects, every project has to be costed and those costs are now brought to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. The relationship between us - the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned this in his statement - is a landlord-tenant relationship, in that the OPW owns the building. We do not have authority to spend money on capital projects, but the bike shed demonstrated the reputational risks to the Oireachtas and its Members where a project like that happens. Everything now is heavily scrutinised. Mr. Errity chairs a working group with the OPW. Those proposals are all reviewed, there are costs attached to them and they go to the commission. The commission, at its meeting on Tuesday, considered the first item from that new process.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. We had the bike shed and then we had the security hut. I have to ask the question as to whether there is anything else Members need to be concerned with at the moment.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I appreciate that.
For the last 40 seconds, I am going to raise a few issues I have experienced as a Member here. I know the frustrations Members have and while we have the officials here, it would be remiss of me not to raise them. There are no bins in the offices. I understand there is an effort to cut down on waste, but not having bins in offices is a bit overkill and is something that could easily be fixed.
The other thing is that data protection is really important-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but for me as a Member, when I am dealing with constituents day in and day out, I cannot screenshot and send them on a response. If I want to do that, I have to forward it to a personal email and then screenshot it and send it on to them. I cannot copy and paste any information out of my email into WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger. I have a huge amount of communication via those media - Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. People want us to be accessible. I apologise for running over but this is important. I do not think me copying and pasting information out of the Oireachtas system is a risk to the Oireachtas. All of the attacks would be incoming, so for me to be unable to copy and paste information and send it on, I think there is IT overkill in that. Members have told me that in the previous Dáil, you were able to screenshot an email, send it on to a constituent and tell them here is the response I got for this parliamentary question, this rep or this query. It is just adding an unnecessary burden to our roles. It might be a petty thing-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it is frustrating.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank the officials for all their answers and their efforts. I sincerely mean it. This is a great place for me to work and I have a great experience here every day I come in, so I appreciate it.
Mr. Ciarán Doyle:
On the point about data protection and the screenshotting and copy-and-paste limitations that are there now, they are a result of the ongoing uplift and increase in the security posture of the organisation. They have come through via the cybersecurity programme we have here. There is a balance to be struck between security and day-to-day operations for a Member or member of staff, whoever it happens to be, and sometimes there is a bit of friction there. We are happy to review that and look at it with the Deputy, and talk about it further if that is okay.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is perfect. I thank Mr. Doyle.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Dolan. Our next speaker is Deputy Neville.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Finnegan for all his efforts, the contribution he has made and even in my short time here the way he deals with us personally and his friendliness. He knew my name straight away and I assume everybody else probably says the same and wonders how he does that. He probably had our names from the start.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is those small personal touches from him. It is only a small thing, but at the same time they are the things that speak to us and to how he has handled his business, even before I was here. It is the measure of him, the role he has done and the effort he has made in that time to make this, as Deputy Dolan alluded to, a great place to work and for us to come into. I thank him for that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This issue has been covered by others, which is always the risk at the public accounts committee, but at the same time we have similar interests and similar things have been brought to our attention. On the broadcast service workers, I am conscious the officials cannot deal with the employees of Pi Comms directly, but I want to clarify some things. There is always that question about the direct staff who are here. Do the officials have a feel for how many staff in the Pi Comms company itself would be dealing with the service that is provided? I wanted to clarify it from our perspective, because we always hear about the people who are working here, but is there another team who are back in Pi Comms? What sort of level-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I am sorry; I called it Pi Comms for short. That is the way it was referred to yesterday.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Finnegan even give a colour of those services that might be provided, I will not say behind the scenes, but by the company itself just to give us a clear picture?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I am sorry; just within the company itself to provide the services. I think it might be Mr. Finnegan who actually speaks to that.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
I thank the Deputy. Pi Comms works in other parliaments. It works in Stormont and it works in Holyrood as well. Obviously, it has staff that attend to that. In terms of the unit here, obviously, the Deputy has met the part-time workers, but the part-time workers I kind of refer to as the tip of the spear.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is what I want to get a picture of otherwise. It is just to give everyone a clear picture of what that actual spear looks like to be honest.
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
At the moment of live proceedings right now, part-time workers are hugely important. They are sitting in a gallery over there and they are controlling the cameras and putting up the graphics. They are putting up members' name supers and making sure all the information is on the screen. However, behind them there is an entire ecosystem that gives them the tools that allow them to do that in that moment of live proceedings. There is engineering and production. The three cost centres that are in the contract are operation and production, technical and maintenance, and management and administration. Full-time staff are spread across all those cost centres. To give the Deputy an idea of hands-on operational stuff, right now, there are three part-time workers in the committee gallery looking after this particular meeting. Beyond that, there are at least three engineers who are in the central apparatus room, CAR, which makes sure that not only the stream from this room but the stream from all other rooms that are currently live get to the video router and from the video router get to the channel solution. In the channel solution, there are at least two full-time people working at the moment. They look after getting the signal via fibre to RTÉ, TG4 and Virgin Media and also the curation of the Oireachtas TV channel. The people who are actually in the control room at the moment are just doing it for this room. This room is part of a number of feeds that go into the Oireachtas TV channel and then at any one time, my Civil Service team, who are separate from Pi Comms, select what is actually going to be shown on the Oireachtas TV channel. While people can see everything live on the website, we have to make a choice for the channel because there is only one output on Sky, Virgin and TG4. Beyond that again then, they would have their own contract manager, their own production manager and an engineering consultant. Downstairs in the editing room there are two producers and two editors. There is a huge amount of work that goes on beyond the live proceedings, and that has to go on behind the live proceedings. As I said, in the moment, the part-time workers are a skilled, dedicated, vital cog in the machine, but there is a bigger machine and our remit and what we do goes beyond just the live proceedings. That ecosystem is there to service the live proceedings and everything else.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. The tender process is ongoing for the future and the next period as well. How many people or different companies would have engaged for the previous tender?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Would they be providing similar services?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the importance of cost in that? I presume there is weighting towards costs and everything else. What would the weighting be towards the costs roughly, even in the next tender?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
It is 30%, which could be low. I have spoken to other broadcast managers from other parliaments, and they could be up around 35% or 40%. However, what I will say about the tender is that it is a bespoke solution that we have here. The model of parliamentary broadcasting we have is different from nearly every other parliament. We own our own channel end to end. Apart from the French Sénat, I think we are the only other parliament in western Europe that owns a TV broadcast channel end to end. Loads of people stream and loads of people go via YouTube; we have our own channel. In America and Canada, they have CPAC, which provides the same thing as Oireachtas TV does but to a greater extent. However, that is actually owned by the cable companies that carry the signal. It is not owned by the parliament. We have a really bespoke model. When we go out for tender, we really are aware of that. We try to get a diversity of responses, but there is a lot of specialised stuff there and maybe companies do not have everything we need within their own resources.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McKeon very much for bringing colour to that.
Peter, I want to go back to the issue with the OPW and that relationship. I get the relationship, but as Deputy Dolan also alluded to, there is that reputational risk. In fairness, Mr. Finnegan referenced it as well. Representatives from the OPW will probably be in front of us sooner rather than later. The OPW does great work too. I do not want to be negative but at the same time, unfortunately, we have been let down in certain spheres. I do not think anybody would deny that, especially with the bike shed and even closer to home with Castletown House. No one is infallible. Even in the future, what does Mr. Finnegan feel might be the best way to manage that relationship and that process? If he were to hand one mined piece of information to someone in the future, what would he say we could do differently to help things?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
That is a very good question. The model we have at the moment is a steering committee, which Michael chairs and Ciarán is on as well. It is a committee like that, which will work and ensure that there are no reputational impacts arising from work in the Houses. We had a similar committee in 2018 for the major restoration project and we had four people on it. It met very regularly, and that project came in essentially on budget and on time. There is the need for formality when you are dealing with projects, and a committee like that imposes a degree of formality on work in Leinster House and scrutinises costs. That is absolutely essential. When those costs go to the commission then, that is a further sense check. When I read the reports in preparation for this morning, one of the big standout lines from the report was about the sense check. Procurement was done on that project, but it was that sense check. Did €336,000 for a bicycle shelter make any sense? No, it did not. The process we have, therefore, is an assurance process to make sure that type of thing never happens again, and it cannot happen again here.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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As I said, I do not want to get bogged down. There is so much good stuff-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know my time is up. As I said, it is more of a general comment for something else in the future. As Mr. Finnegan said, he has that from his own side. It is almost just to protect themselves and protect us, so at least he has that in place. I thank the witnesses very much for that and once again, I thank Mr. Finnegan for everything over the years.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Finnegan and all the staff from the commission today, and well done to him on all his hard work over the years and to everybody else as well. It has been a long road for you, Peter, so well done on the great work, and thank you.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions. I want to first go back to the Pi Comms contract and the broadcasters. In discussions with the broadcasters, they actually said that for value for money, it would be more beneficial for the commission to employ them. Does Mr. Finnegan feel that is true or not?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
What we did was look at the various models that were possible, which we costed out. Ms Connolly's team in the Parliamentary Budget Office did the costings. The direct employment model on a full-time basis is considerably more expensive. There is no doubt about that. Obviously, there can be discussions around how many people should be full-time, etc., but even by adjusting that and maybe reducing the number, it still comes out more expensive. The big issue from the commission's point of view is the commission is looking for a good quality broadcast service, value for money and fairness in terms of how people are treated, etc.
As I said earlier, if the two sides come together and use the structures that are there, the commission will not be found wanting.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Finnegan said earlier in relation to the tender that they could actually procure for the tender as well and put in for the tender.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Theoretically, anyone can actually put in a tender and it will be given consideration. To be honest, I am not sure how feasible that is for the group because it requires a lot of expertise to pull together a tender. The group in question have experts in terms of filming, but as Mr. McKeon explained there is a whole kind of broadcast infrastructure. It is really high tech and heavy engineering stuff there. I am not sure what their expertise would be in that area.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There was something in the contract that they had to be in operation for six months.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On their tender and other tenders or contractors that the Oireachtas would put out for, are other contractors doing the same? For example, with cleaning, kitchen and catering staff, are they getting part-time contracts as well?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are they hired by the Oireachtas?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Yes. Their salaries are paid from the accounts. They are great people. In addition to that, when things get really busy that would always be supplemented by people who are brought in for a day or a night or if there was a sick leave position. I recall at one stage there was a Covid outbreak and two or three chefs went down. In those circumstances, we have to bring in outsiders.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Finnegan saying that the broadcasters would have a good case to bring to the workers' union in relation to this as other staff in the Oireachtas are employed full-time, but the broadcasters cannot get full-time contracts?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
I am very careful about getting involved in it, if the Deputy does not mind. The broadcast staff are good people. I honestly feel that if they and the employer, Pi Communications, engage in good faith in the industrial relations process, there is a solution to be found here that is capable of being accommodated by the contract.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. I will move on. We will advise them to go down that route from here.
On the print room and the printers, a new contract was put out for printers last year. Will Mr. Finnegan talk me through that?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Absolutely. It is the managed print service. This was approved at the commission on Tuesday evening. The printers that the Deputies have in their offices are currently provided by a company called Apogee. We do not own printers because it does not make sense for us to go out and purchase 1,000 printers.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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However, there are financial assets worth €942,000 in printers.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
That is probably the big printer across the road. However, the other printers are the ones are in the Deputy's Leinster House office and her constituency office. For those printers, we pay by the page. We are going back out to tender because the current contract is up next April. The estimated cost will be €2 million for five years.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the printer that is already in place not operational any more?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is that used for?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that operational yet?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it still operational?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to termination contracts, there seems to be quite a lot of money spent on termination contracts in the past year. How many employees would have-----
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
What happens is after a general election there is the turnover. In the last number of elections, we have seen large numbers of Members change. Each Member has two staff. Those staff have to be looked after. Both for the Member and the staff, we provide the severance and pension arrangements. That would be very normal after a general election. A general election is a big undertaking for us because of the number of people who are moving out or moving in. We try to look after each group as best as we possibly can.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On non-compliant costs, I noticed cleaning was non-compliant for three years in a row. Why would that be?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
This is a Covid thing. Our facilities unit is responsible for the cleaning contract. The cleaning contract was due to expire at the end of 2022. It was because of Covid and the fact they were so stretched. We were running the convention centre and here. There were high levels of cleaning required. They did not get started on the preparation of the contract in time. They started late. Once they got into the contract, it proved to be more complex than they anticipated but that contract is now in place and signed since 2024. From that there have been a number of lessons for us. The main one being that we have to start on time. Assistant Secretaries have responsibility for all contracts in their area and have to make sure that things are starting on time. We boosted up our procurement unit. We have done additional training for people on procurement. Our new financial system has automatic alerts when contracts are coming up to their expiry date.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In 2024, there was €510,000 that was non-compliant. To console us for this year, is there going to be any non-compliance in 2025?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there no non-compliance in 2025?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has it already gone out to tender for 2026? Mr. Finnegan said they have to prepare in advance each year to make sure that they were compliant.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am referring to the cleaning.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What are the five years of that contracts?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That contract was signed in 2024 and it was non-compliant to the amount of €510,000.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Going forward now from 2024, will there be no non-compliance for cleaning next year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You are working on the IT infrastructure. Is there any non-compliance there?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is everything up and running okay?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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A lot of the Departments and the witnesses we have had before us have had issues with IT systems. They are not working properly for them, or they have lost money on them. They have had systems put in place that have not worked properly. Is there any of that within the Oireachtas?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Very good. Well done. I thank the witnesses and Mr. Finnegan. I wish him very well in the future.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. As a new TD, my experience here by and large is that the place is very well run. It is functioning well. When we see the range and scale of activity that takes place here on a daily basis, it is not an easy task to run that smoothly, and by and large it does. Well done to everyone involved. I thank Mr. Finnegan for his service. Our crossover has been limited, but on a personal level he has always come across as very accessible and courteous. That is very appreciated.
I will get down to the nitty-gritty now. Some of the capital projects have already been discussed. When I said at the outset how well the place is run that is a reflection on everybody, such as public servants, the co-operation of ourselves as Members and so on. It is disappointing when projects, such as the bike shelter, take place.
As Deputy Dolan mentioned, it is the butt of many jokes and so on and that is disappointing for everybody involved. If I can delve a little bit into that project, and I respect that is an OPW project in terms of management, procurement and so on, but in the origin of a project like that, somebody I presume within the commission feels it is necessary to develop a bike shelter, no?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So it came from Members, from a cycling group within Parliament.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, fair enough. When it was decided we would approach the OPW to commence a project like this, is there a cost-benefit analysis done? Is there an estimated costing? We cannot just decide to proceed with projects without some idea of what the cost would be. I am just trying to figure out what that process is before we give the green light to a project such as the bike shelter.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Correct. At the time of the bike shed, the responsibility for doing the cost-benefit analysis was with the OPW because it was not commission money that was being spent on the bike shed. As I said earlier, we do not have the authority to do capital works in here and the report that was commissioned identified there were shortcomings in the value-for-money and cost-benefit analysis on the OPW side. Going forward, as I alluded to earlier, we now have our formal structure in place. That will check the OPW cost-benefit analysis piece and we will make absolutely sure everything checks out before it goes to the commission.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I clarify what the estimated cost was at the outset of that project?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You were never provided with that?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The OPW obviously has a figure but we do not know that figure.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was €336,000.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. So effectively do not know how much it over ran.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That in itself - I am not saying it is a commission issue, it is an OPW issue - raises alarm bells in terms of accountability and so on.
Regarding future projects, are there other capital projects in the pipeline that we are engaging with the OPW on?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is this disability access?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do we have an estimated cost of that?
Mr. Michael Errity:
Approximately €180,000 including VAT and whatever fees and small contingency we have put in place because it is a very constrained site there. That will be followed then by a phase 2 which the OPW will come to the commission with. As the Deputy will probably know, that exit area out to the back of Agriculture House is in a very unsatisfactory condition for access so that will be phase 2 of the project early next year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is absolutely necessary work, 100%, it is just the management of that project so that we do not see further cost over-runs and so on. Are the witnesses quite confident that the processes in place now are robust enough?
Mr. Michael Errity:
I am satisfied. Just to say a few words about the situation with the OPW, we have had a long and fruitful relationship with the OPW. I chaired the steering group for the restoration of historic Leinster House. It was €16.5 million. There was no over-run except the contingency that was allowed by the Department of public expenditure for a historic building. We had a long and fruitful relationship with the OPW; confidence would have been high. I know the initial location for the shelter at the back of Agriculture House was denied for security reasons, which I will not go into, and the OPW then prioritised trying to complete the task and best endeavours were put in place. Unfortunately, nobody anticipated the cost of a bike shelter was one for which there would have to be a detailed cost-benefit analysis-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is this still something to proceed with.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. With regard to upcoming projects, accessibility and the EU Presidency, are not going to involve any expenditure in terms of capital works, are they?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are no capital works necessary for the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. The €4.7 million in annual leave accruals was mentioned. To be clear: it is not the case that anyone is paid in lieu of annual leave.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is perfect.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So it is just an issue of carryover and accrual-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine, absolutely. For the return of the Dáil now and the new security operation, for example, who foots the Bill for that?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
An Garda Síochána. We have a close working relationship with the Garda. We have a security group that meets with the Garda and in advance of say, the return of the Dáil, there will be meetings taking place. The Garda will have its intelligence and will take decisions on what happens in the precincts of Leinster House. They also pay for that. They are policing decisions based on intelligence.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, and I am not underestimating the task there because you are as good as the last incident, if you like, and they do a good job as well to be fair.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do we have any estimated cost of the likes of the operation involved for the return of the Dáil? Do we have an estimated cost for that?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a low cost anyway, when you physically see the presence of gardaí and the operation involved. It is a matter of public interest how much an operation like that costs in providing that security which is absolutely necessary but I do think it is a matter of public interest. An Garda Síochána does not charge the State for that service.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
It is not so much a question of charging for it as recognising how much it is costing. It would be a requirement for An Garda Síochána to develop a costing mechanism, if you like, a cost centre to charge or to identify the costs that are associated with any of those particular exercises.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am getting caught for time so I will move on.
On the broadcasting workers, I am not going to go over old ground here but just to add my voice to that, I have also met and spoken to them and I take Mr. Finnegan's bona fides. He was quite open in his own personal views and so on. For me, it is just the reality of the casualisation of work taking place within the Houses of the Oireachtas. As a State, we need to be setting a good example and providing reasonable and fair employment conditions and terms for people who are working here. I will not delve into it further, I will just add my voice to it and ask it is something that will be kept under consideration, notwithstanding the fact there is a tender and so on. If there is a way this can be found, I would certainly urge that we work on providing better terms and conditions for those workers who do incredible work. In respect of the witness's own role in ensuring that what takes place here is broadcast, it is an incredible service and it is fantastic that the public can see democracy in action. Well done to everyone who has been involved in that over the years and in developing it but I make that point from the workers' point of view.
Finally - I know I am caught for time - they say when a US president leaves office, he leaves a note on his desk for the incoming president. What would be in Mr. Finnegan's note for the incoming Clerk?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
That is a very good question. The first thing I would do is wish the new person well. I would say to them what a privilege it is to hold the job of Clerk of the Dáil. When you go back, there have only been six or seven clerks since the foundation of the State and it is an immense honour to have the privilege of holding the job.
I would say to my successor that it is a very demanding job but it is hugely rewarding, enjoyable and important. In terms of the specific remit of this committee, I would be saying to the person that one of the big things is the Accounting Officer functions. We have spoken about ICT, etc., like that and, over recent years, Mr. Errity and I, with others, including Mr. Doyle, have paid very close attention to expenditure. You need to be in there looking at what the spend is, managing that and asking questions. That is the type of advice I would be giving my successor.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will now take a short break of approximately 15 minutes. We will reconvene at approximately 12.15 p.m.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir. Go n-éirí le Peter Finnegan ina ról nua. Tá súil agam go mbeidh i bhfad níos mó ceoil ar an ngiotár i gceist leis.
I thank the witnesses for attending. They are very welcome. I often preface my comments when I am facing these witnesses or representatives of other entities by saying that if the same scrutiny was applied in the private sector, it would be a wonderful country. That is certainly true in respect of the banking sector. I always preface my remarks by saying that. I thank the witnesses for their work. I also thank them for subjecting themselves to scrutiny, with the help of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is vital in a healthy democracy that we have a strong public service that is willing to acknowledge mistakes, rectify them and get on with it. That is the essence of humanity and of public service.
I welcome the changes from 2016 that Mr. Finnegan outlined in his opening statement, including the election of the Ceann Comhairle by secret ballot. We had the special committee on Sláintecare. Unfortunately, the report of that committee has not been implemented, but that is not for the witnesses today. The Committee on Budgetary Oversight is a fantastic help to TDs. The Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers was placed on a statutory footing. All of that was very welcome.
I also acknowledge that the historic Leinster House project came in on time and within budget. That is very important in the context of the other errors that were made. My views on those are known.
A very good role was played by public servants during the centenaries. As a woman, it was important to see women rewritten into history. To my shame, I became aware for the first time of Dr. Kathleen Lynn and the role she played. Women were written out of history and continue to be written out of history. The decade of centenaries went some way to rectifying that.
I will zone in on three things today. The wonderful role played by Oireachtas TV in the banking inquiry in 2015 has been acknowledged. Oireachtas TV was developed and one of the first major parliamentary events to be televised was the banking inquiry. I am going to come back to that. I want to focus on three issues. The first relates to the broadcast workers, an issue my colleagues have gone into in detail. I want to come back to it because I am most unhappy with their conditions. Another issue is the outstanding legal fees for the Angela Kerins case. We might get some details in respect of it and other liabilities. The third issue is that of the Irish language. Perhaps we will start with the case of Angela Kerins.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not want any context. I have read all the context.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have read the judgments, going back. Do I remember them at this point? Not quite.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Finnegan. I am conscious of time. I would like to know the consequences in terms of money. What is the status of that case? Where are we at?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
I will give some information before I hand over to Mellissa English. The account for 2024 includes the last tranche of the payment to our own legal team. The total figure is €725,000. All of the in-house solicitors' work was done by the OPLA, so that is why the bill came in at €725,000. Had we gone outside and employed externally, the cost would have been considerably higher. The case is obviously finished now. There were three sets of proceedings in which costs were awarded. The first set of proceedings was the original High Court case, where the court awarded Ms Kerins her full costs. We have a bill from Ms Kerins's legal team for that. It is being worked through by a legal costs accountant on our behalf. The amount is €2.1 million.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did Mr. Finnegan say "€3.1 million"?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am going to run out of time so I just need figures for what is outstanding. If Mr. Finnegan does not have them here, he can send me a note; I do not mind. Could I have an overview of what the outstanding costs are?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is there an estimate of what those fees are going to be?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Have we any idea?
Ms Mellissa English:
We do not have an estimate on those but module 1 only has come in from her side at €2.1 million. Obviously, that will be subject to a legal costs adjudication process. The latest state of play is our costs accountant has gone back to her costs accountant and asked for the entirety of the bill, that is, module 2, which essentially was the discovery aspect. We want to deal with the bill in its entirety and obviously we owe a third for her High Court module 2 discovery and half for the Supreme Court.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is half for the Supreme Court.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is no module 3.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So the litigation is over and we are just trying to crystalise what the legal costs are and what the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has to pay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Do we have any idea what that will be overall?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Even being speculative.
Ms Mellissa English:
I would not like to speculate. All I can say is module 1 is €2.1 million. Module 2 was an awful lot shorter. It was just a High Court discovery aspect and a discovery hearing in the Supreme Court. It is a much shorter module because, as we all know, her case ended when the Supreme Court issued its decision in June 2024 that her claim for damages is not stateable because it is a collateral attack on Members' utterances, which are protected by the Constitution and therefore no claim for damages is sustainable.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I know lessons were learnt all around, indeed by this committee and other committees, in respect of the handing of that.
I wanted to ask other questions on the outstanding legal cases but I am going to skip it for a minute because I want to go back to the broadcasting workers. It is really ironic that we have workers working in such conditions broadcasting democracy. They are broadcasting this committee here today. The irony of that cannot escape any of us. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is made up of the witnesses, elected Members, the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. Is that right?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did it make a decision to go ahead with the tendering? Was it the body that made the decision?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
The proposal for the tender was brought to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission in July. It considered the tender and the correspondence and decided that the tender should be published. It approved the issuing of the tender. In fairness to the commission, we would have stepped through everything in terms of that process with the commission.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On that, it looks like that has taken its place. It is in progress. What did the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission decide? What did it look at? Did it look at the conditions of the workers?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I find it a little unacceptable, to go back to Mr. McKeon - though it is not personal - to talk about an ecosystem. The word "eco" does not apply here. We have workers working in terrible conditions. They have no certainty. They try to get a second job. They cannot do that because they cannot say when they will be available. It is doubly ironic that they are broadcasting what I am saying today and what the witnesses are saying and then they have to face these conditions. It is not good for the reputation of Dáil Éireann to be entering into a contract like that. Reputational damage was talked about earlier on. This is certainly reputational damage and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has to go back to look at this. It absolutely does. I have very little time to look at which is most cost-effective. That is for experts to decide. However, I cannot stand over something like that. I do not think the witnesses can either. I do not expect them to answer me. It is broadcasting for democracy and we have increased the number of people participating in democracy because of the channel. I cannot believe the number of people looking at it. Yet, these are just appalling conditions. The details have been gone into. It is just important to make the point at this stage. I cannot accept it.
The last point is in relation to the Irish language and the visibility of the language. Mr. Finnegan will know I said I had - I was going to say the dubious distinction - the difficult distinction of chairing a subcommittee for six months. We came up with very practical suggestions to make the Irish visible and normalise it. I have not seen these suggestions being rolled out and that committee report has gone to some shelf somewhere. Let us take the restaurant, for example. Irish should be visible. Everything should be in Irish and English everywhere we go. I have run out of time and I have given out so much about time I will have to stop. These are very practical issues that could be sorted out very quickly but there seems to be a dragging of the feet all of the time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I know all that. I know how much work Mr. Finnegan and his team have put into that but the language is still not visible. A tiny percentage of Irish language is used in the Dáil. We know that. We came up with practical suggestions such as having a lottery for Irish questions for the Minister and that the last question would always be in Irish. They were very practical suggestions. Look, I may get a chance to come back in. My apologies for being a minute over time.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions myself. To follow on the trail regarding the broadcast workers, the OPW was referenced earlier on and the bicycle shed and the deep embarrassment that whole process brought on the Houses of the Oireachtas, the Members and the staff. The way the broadcast workers have been handled is more embarrassing. When we have workers who do phenomenal work having to stand outside the front gates of where we all work to highlight the unfairness and the fact that they have to sign on not just during the summer recess but also at Christmas time, that has to be deeply embarrassing. It is for me. That is particularly the case in a Parliament that, back in 2018, legislated to ban zero-hour contracts. I would liken the contracts they are on as precarious and similar in nature to zero-hour contracts, something we legislated to ban. When you have workers in this House not knowing on a Monday what hours they will be working that week, it is not just unfair; it is not right. As a Parliament that seeks to ensure workers' rights and entitlements are met and as someone who believes in decent pay for decent work, that causes a lot of issues. I will touch on a couple of points. Reference was made to there being nothing stopping the broadcast workers themselves applying for the tender, and that process has commenced. I put on record that they are precluded from that process. As part of the contract they cannot bid against the current contract and there may also be rules there in terms of company law. I put that on record. Reference was also made to the Workplace Relations Commission and cases currently before the WRC. That process has ended unsuccessfully, unfortunately, for the workers who took their cases before the WRC. At this point, they feel that process has also been exhausted. I will ask a couple of specific questions. Is the current contract that is due to run to the end of the year a five-year contract?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What was the total value of that contract?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was €8.6 million. For how many years is the tender that has gone out?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The value is €9.9 million. Do we know the total percentage of the cost of wages in that?
Do we know that detail?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is €1.01 million over the course of the-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. In relation to the tender documents that have gone out, I will read a section under environmental, social and employment law. It states:
Tenderers should be aware that national legislation applies in other matters such as employment, working hours, official secrets, data protection and health and safety. Tenderers must have regard to statutory terms relating to minimum pay and to legally binding industrial or sectoral agreements ...
What does that mean? The huge issue here is that the broadcast workers are, in many cases, getting roughly less than half of what the industry norms are. What protections does that section in the tender document give the workers under the future contract in terms of the standard, accepted industry pay?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
The Chair has what is stated in the tender, which obviously commits the Oireachtas and the service provider to abide by all relevant employment regulation. That is in the RFT. I manage the contract on behalf of the Oireachtas. In terms of the protections the employees have, when this dispute first came to light, there is a provision in the contract that the service provider will come to me and talk to me about any situation that could conceivably threaten the operation of the contract. We had a discussion in the middle of last year with regard to the fact there was an ongoing dispute. I have engaged with the management of the company on these questions. They have given me assurances, and gave the same assurances, I believe, to the WRC, that there are no zero-hour contracts, that the rates of pay are above the minimum wage and living wage and have been benchmarked to comparable roles in the industry. I believe that the same information has been submitted to the WRC.
I do not want to get into the middle of a dispute and I also do not want to get into their model of service, because there is an outstanding RFT. In terms of what they actually get, in their contract, as far as I am aware, they are given a minimum amount of work they will be offered and they can be offered more work beyond that. I have been given assurances that most of them are offered more work beyond that. At that stage of the game, there may be other jobs they are doing or another commitment they have to fulfil. I have been informed that does not in any way affect the offering of the next week's work.
As for how soon work is rostered, that actually depends on the rostering of the Houses and on the committees of the Houses. My Civil Service team and I cannot make a decision on what will be on Oireachtas TV the next week until we get the committee schedule and the Dáil and Seanad schedules. It is the same for Pi Comms in terms of rostering.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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From speaking and engaging with the workers, they are on average pay of about €12,000 per year. That is the information they are giving me and that is nowhere near a living wage or a minimum wage. I hear what Mr. McKeon is saying in terms of extra hours being offered and all of that but I do not think it is acceptable and it is not anywhere near the accepted, agreed pay levels for the sector. I know this is outside, given the nature of the contract, but does Mr. McKeon agree they should be paid the accepted norms in comparison to other broadcast workers in RTÉ or anywhere else?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
The information I have is that they are being paid the same rates. Again, the situation is that the roles they are doing are part-time roles and have always been designated as part-time roles. There can be some confusion in terms of other allegations that have happened in other parts of the broadcast industry where there were people who were essentially performing full-time duties but being kept on part-time contracts. This is not that. These workers have been informed that their work is related to the live proceedings only.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There are serious issues there and-----
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
Sorry, I just want to reiterate that some of these workers have been there for years. I know these workers. The only imperative we have in this, as an institution, is to make sure the two parties to this dispute - there are two parties, which are the employees and the employer - go to the recognised forums to get this resolved.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, that process to date has not been successful for the workers. To go back to the initial question, under the new tender documents that have been issued, are there additional protections in there to ensure the industry-accepted value of work is adhered to? Is there anything additional in this tender document in comparison with the previous one?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
As I mentioned before, we go out there to procure. We do not procure for staff; we procure for services. We cannot be prescriptive about how their solution is presented to us. What we do is we give them a list of the employment regulations they must abide by. We also let them know that the existing employees have TUPE obligations which need to be honoured. Then we look to see what comes in. I have worked in the Oireachtas broadcasting unit for nearly ten years. There is a dispute going on between employer and employees but, beyond that, it has been an efficient workplace, it has been a happy workplace and in those ten years we have produced incredible results, incredible events, under incredible pressure from Covid and various outside things. The part-time workers are a part of that, the full-time workers are a part of that and the Civil Service team are a part of that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of my time as well. I would like to get clarity on the duties the workers have. In response to a previous question, Mr. McKeon said one of their duties was putting up the names of Deputies or Senators who were speaking on the screen or whatever is done.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Speaking to some of the workers, they have indicated that duty has been removed from them and has gone elsewhere. Can I get clarity on whether that is the case?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
The only thing I can think of is, and I can say right from the start, is that there are no duties being removed that would remove headcount. There is the same amount of headcount in the galleries. What I can think of is that the new graphics system, which is part of the upgrade of the control rooms and video router which we completed in 2024, has a function on it that we can take information directly from the procedural system and essentially pump that into our graphics system. What was happening before was that it was a manual process where one of the part-time workers, in conjunction with my Civil Service team, would be handed a piece of paper and then would have to type it in each morning. What we have now is a digital library of names, titles and business that the graphic operator can select. What it does is it removes a completely onerous task but also ensures the bilingual graphics we have started to use in the past year are as accurate as possible.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will conclude on this section and then open it up to members for additional questions.
This is a serious problem for us. When I say "us", I speak of everyone in the House. When workers are outside the gate highlighting a serious employment issue, that is on everyone - legislators and the commission. Someone gave the example earlier of secretaries and caretakers in schools. There are similarities there. It is not right or acceptable in this day and age where people who are working in the same building, using equipment provided by the Oireachtas, are having to go outside these gates at Christmas time or in the summer to sign on. It is something we are going to have to seriously look at in terms of moving these workers into the Civil Service. I will conclude on that point. I will have other questions on other matters when I come back in. I will open it back up to Deputy Dolan again.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to go back to one point I was talking about earlier. Is the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission an FOI-able body?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If it is an FOI-able body, does it have to comply with the model publication scheme?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Where is the exemption for the commission not to publish the purchase orders online?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If the commission is FOI-able, then realistically somebody could probably FOI the purchase orders anyway.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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So why not publish them anyway and take that step? What I am going to do separately is write to the clerk to the committee and highlight where it is working really well, which bodies are publishing it and the format they are publishing in. I have seen State bodies publishing PDFs and if I go to try to scrape data off a PDF, good luck to me. What is really good is if the body publishes the CSV in a particular format. I have written to all State bodies to do this and we have seen fantastic results with them now publishing it in CSV, publishing it online and it is working well. If the commission could look at that, first, to see if there is a requirement and, second, to see if it is of benefit to do it. If not, there might be a way to consider adopting it because it would be really good.
I do not have any other questions at this point. I was wrong about the idea of the workers potentially coming together and bidding for the contract. That is out the window. I know the officials are in a tough position and are constrained but I feel like the workers need the support. They need to know there is support and respect for the work they are doing. That is where there is a breakdown here. Obviously, they want better conditions and to have a better, clearer path forward. I really hope there can be some work done there and resolution found.
I contacted the rest of the members of my party to see if there were any other issues they wanted me to raise and I got a lot of feedback. I am not going to go into it here but I might write to the commission with a few different proposals that would help the function of the place and help Members in their operations. I appreciate the officials being here today.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy. Next is Deputy Connolly.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am sorry I was so quick the last time. I was just trying to get into the ten minutes and run. I have a huge difficulty with the outsourcing of the broadcasters. The justification for that is it would cost too much to employ them directly. That cost is taken into the other important criterion that should be taken on board, which is the direct employment of people who are giving an essential service. It has been pointed out that it is an entity out there and they can go through the Workplace Relations Commission and the court. That is not accurate. Theoretically it is accurate but if the employer refuses, that is the end. I understand in this situation that the company has refused. I would like Mr. Finnegan to comment on that and say where he is getting his information that it has engaged. I understand there has been no engagement. Maybe I am wrong and I will be the first to say sorry. Distancing yourself from something like that is not acceptable. It is something that really needs to go back to the Houses of the Oireachtas commission to look at. What is the essential value of this service? How do we do it properly and how do we learn? That is one question.
The next question is on the Irish language. I stopped the witnesses in their tracks earlier. Could Mr. Finnegan clarify that in a few sentences and where we are at with the translation service? Is there still a backlog? Finally, there is the issue of the legal costs again of the second part, in relation to the 13 legal claims in 2024. We have legal costs of €228,000. Compensation seems very little in comparison to the legal costs of €100,000, and so on. What were the legal costs relating to the members of the public for? Could Mr. Finnegan clarify all of that for me?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not know what has happened to the technology but the clock has gone, luckily for me.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We purposely took that down, not to curtail, because there are so few members here. As a Chair, I am fairly flexible that way.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was not on the screen outside either - this wonderful technology we are spending a fortune on. I do not mind if the officials want to go with the legal costs first, whoever is ready. I do not mind.
Ms Mellissa English:
In the appropriation accounts for 2024, under note 6, miscellaneous, the Deputy will see there were three personal injury claims in that year costing a total of €103,000. One was in respect of an employee who had a trip and fall over loose wires. There was a payment out in respect of that claim for €100,000. That was obviously a severe injury. There was a second claim again for an employee of the Oireachtas who became trapped in a lift. The payment in 2024 for that was €1,472. It related to a medical assessment. There was a third claim, an employee who was injured when a door panel fell on them. The fee in respect of that for 2024 was just over €1,000 and that was a fee paid to PIAB to assess the claim.
In the other columns, the Deputy will see there are two claims by employees who are classified as non-PI. The total for them is €228,000. This related to two particular claims by employees. One is----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not even wish to go into the specifics. Just the general picture. In fairness, they are people who are employed. I just want an overall idea if possible.
Ms Mellissa English:
The overall idea for those two claims by employees is one did not make it through their probationary period and brought judicial review proceedings. The second claim was a little bit more complicated. It was a lawyer working within OPLA where there was an alleged conflict of interest. Disciplinary proceedings were brought in respect of the individual, who then injuncted those disciplinary proceedings. That was a case that ran over the course of last year and was conducted entirely as Gaeilge and was in the courts. The payment in respect of 2024 in that was €219,000.
The other column relates to seven claims by members of the public, which is how we classify them. One of those claims was in respect of the Irish language case, the Ó Murchú case, which Ms Gunn is going to deal with now - a legacy issue, and just getting discrete advice at the end of the period for the translation of Acts. Some €38,000 of that was in respect of paying our counsel for Kerins, for the Supreme Court. Another case that was paid out in that is the Bríd Smith case. That was the challenge concerning money messages and the petroleum Bill. Some €49,000 of that was in respect of litigation fees for our counsel.
There was another claim by an individual who was an unsuccessful candidate for the captain of the guard position. There was a payment out of just over €100,000 in respect of legal fees. There was a very small amount paid out by an individual who brought a claim alleging that he should have been given a position on the banking inquiry. There is the enforcement notice proceedings, which are live proceedings at the moment. That is where the Data Protection Commissioner has issued enforcement proceedings against seven or eight Oireachtas defendants and-or officeholders. There is a payment out of that in respect of our counsel fees and in respect of a mediation process that we underwent. There is a very small amount, less than €100, in respect of an individual who has issued proceedings relating to an alleged breach of their GDPR rights.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Ms English.
Ms Elaine Gunn:
I thank the Deputy. She mentioned Rannóg and I want to pay tribute to the work of Rannóg an Aistriúcháin. It does very good work and has a fantastic, specialised team. I will start with the numbers because, ultimately, with the court cases and the litigation we have had, it is about the capacity to translate the sheer volume of legislation we have. Currently, there are 28.7 full-time equivalents in Rannóg an Aistriúcháin, but of that there are 22.7 specialist staff. They are the translators and editors. The pressure is on the editorial side and that specialist work. The translations are all broadly done. The pressure is on that high skill set which involves checking, terminology and all of that stuff to get the Acts published.
In terms of the High Court action that was taken against us and settled in 2018, we undertook to clear that arrears backlog in a five-year period. There were 511 Acts outstanding at that point between 1992 and 2018. We put in a lot of effort in terms of recruitment. Over that period, we have run 18 recruitment campaigns but unfortunately, we have only managed to add minimally to our numbers. We were at approximately 19.5 at the start of that period in 2019 and we have grown the translation and editorial staff to approximately 22.7, meaning we have added approximately three people. There is a lot of turnover there. We are competing with the European institutions. It is very challenging for us but even at that, with a lot of effort and focus on the team, we managed to publish 50% of those arrears. It was a good effort and it continues. The challenge is that legislation keeps getting passed so even since 2018 until 2025, we have added another 285 Acts since that judgment. However, just under 50% of those have been published.
We are making progress. If we had more numbers - we commissioned a PwC review of Rannóg which underpinned the five-year plan. The plan was to get us up to approximately 38 of a headcount and we just have not succeeded with those 19 recruitment processes. It is still a good story. The progress that has been made has been fantastic. We have focused on how do we manage because arrears are with us. We are now focused on having a prioritisation strategy. What Rannóg is doing now is focusing very much on where the demand is. We are publishing on a demand-led basis, which is taking up all of the capacity. There are a lot of requests received from State bodies and members of the public. Ultimately, that is where the value added is. Hopefully, over time and once we get the numbers up, which we hope to do, we will then work on the overall cohort.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Despite the best efforts, what is the backlog now?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms Gunn can send me those numbers.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses.
Ms Elaine Gunn:
Obviously, within that they vary in size. For example, one of those will be the planning and development Act, which is absolutely enormous. The round numbers do not tell the full story. The legislation is getting a lot bigger. Legislation is getting lengthier and more complex. The average pagination is probably going up in recent years.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is unfortunate we have such a legacy.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The effort is going one way and is not in going the other way.
Ms Elaine Gunn:
It is very difficult for the team. At the moment, our process is one of annualised recruiting. We run recruitment competitions every year. That is what is keeping the numbers up and it is important. The numbers have grown modestly. The hope is that over time, that will improve.
To come back on the Gaeilge sa Teach. I understand the Deputy's frustration and she has mentioned it before. On that report, we have wrapped that into a bilingualism action plan. It is quite comprehensive. We are trying to finalise it. I know this is a little bit of a theme but we have had a vacancy in the Rannóg for the previous year that has taken a year to fill. A core part of that person's job is to drive the implementation of that bilingualism action plan. Certainly, we are happy to share that with the Deputy as Cathaoirleach of the chomhchoiste. It is important to get all of those recommendations pulled together because we also have recommendations coming out of other work we have done such as benchmarking, etc. We want to consolidate a plan.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What about the Labour Court and the WRC?
Mr. Donnacha McKeon:
The information I have from the employer service provider is that it has engaged at the WRC. For clarity, there are two separate groups within the part-time employees who are in dispute. One is the more senior operators and it is a smaller group. It was at the WRC. Following the failure of that process to come up with a resolution, the service provider, Pi Comms, told me it is standing by to engage with that employee group again at the Labour Court. It is also standing by to engage with the larger group of junior operatives at the WRC. It is waiting for that to happen.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What does "standing by" mean? Has it engaged with both groups?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is not my understanding.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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By the company?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will make a final comment. There is a reluctance to talk to the workers because the witnesses commission people for the services and yet, there is no problem talking to the company and getting its version of events.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I know that and we have been through it all but it just seems ironic on so many levels. We have said enough on the details. I thank the witnesses.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I concur with that and thank Deputy Connolly. I have a few questions myself. To return to the issue of the bicycle shelter, the witnesses already gave the events that led to the bike shelter coming about and the request that came in from the group within the Oireachtas that saw a need for that. Who then engaged with the OPW to advance that request?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was facilities who initiated it. Who deemed the project urgent? It was labelled an urgent project.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. On the engagement with the OPW, was there then a project team put in place?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Facilities and the service itself had no part of the process from there on in?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There were no meetings about where it should it be located or the design?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
There was one meeting as there were issues about where it should be located. Obviously, from a conservation point of view, the OPW had its views. In fairness to the OPW, its preference was the west road which is the road at the Members' restaurant but that was actually ruled out on Garda security advice.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Who carried out that engagement? Was that facilities?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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At any point, was it deemed necessary to have any engagement with the commission or with facilities, even in terms of design, costing or anything like that?
At no point was it deemed necessary to have any engagement by the service or from facilities, even in terms of design or costing. You mentioned earlier that that information was not forthcoming or you did not get that information on the cost. Was the question ever asked?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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To ask a retrospective question: do you think there was a failure in how the process was handled from within the service? Should there have been more hands-on engagement with the OPW throughout that entire process?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
There were absolutely lessons learned. It was of its time in terms of how work was done but because of the reputational damage and the fact that the bike shed was constructed at such excessive cost, we have put in place new procedures now going forward so, yes, there are lessons learned.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will return to a separate issue. You touched on the work within the Oireachtas to improve accessibility for people with disabilities. I will touch on that because, again this seems to be a retrospective piece of work that has been done. It follows a deeply embarrassing incident last year.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, a group that came in, a HSE Gold Star Disability Awareness Project training programme. It was deeply embarrassing that the lifts were not working. However, there were issues around toilets and other matters as well. You said that was deeply embarrassing and you were apologetic about that. Will you give an overall perspective?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Absolutely, it was hugely embarrassing. I encountered the group myself in the corridor outside the Members' restaurant. The lift there had failed to work and people were stranded. It was absolutely mortifying. I did everything I could to alleviate the difficulty at that particular time. I engaged with the group. I have continued to engage with the group and I had the group back in just before the summer recess. We had 26 people from Tipperary. We had lunch and we brought the group to the Public Gallery in the Dáil. It was a way more successful visit. When I engaged with them, one thing I wanted to do was to have them back so that they got a better experience of Leinster House. I have engaged with the group also then in terms of using their expertise and pushing us, as an institution, to get things done. We have made progress. I have communicated back to the group. We have a new wheelchair-accessible toilet. We talked earlier about the universal access project, which was approved on Tuesday by the commission. There is now work in the bar corridor. The facilities unit is procuring services to improve markings and visual indicators. We are looking at a new accessible toilet in LH 2000. We have installed induction loop systems in Members' areas as well as the Dáil and Seanad Chambers and all the committee systems. Further installations are planned in the reception areas, the public Galleries of the committee rooms and the Dáil and Seanad public Galleries. We have also done an audit of emergency evacuation chairs. We have done improvements in tactile, Braille and sign language. We have also had a disability audit. Mr. Lawler is leading the implementation team to implement the recommendations of that audit. I am absolutely determined that Leinster House is an environment where everybody can come and experience all of the good things that are in Leinster House.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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While all of that is welcome, it is also overdue.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are bound by legislation to ensure that all public buildings are fully accessible. I will return to that in a moment. In your opening statement, you made reference to the work that was done within the Oireachtas over a two-year period at a cost of €17 million. It was a considerable amount of work at considerable cost. You said in the past it was value for money. People will ask, and indeed, the question should be asked as to who looked at the scope of that work. Was disability access part of that? Retrospectively, a disability audit is being carried out but was that part of disability proofing in relation to the scope of works that were to be embarked on? Who led that project? Was this only the OPW or was a needs assessment carried out?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
The project was led by the OPW in conjunction with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. The project itself was a restoration project rather than an improvement project of Leinster House. When the project began, Leinster House was in a really poor state of repair. There were major issues with fire compartmentalisation, structural issues with floors and stonework issues. The big priority of that project was to restore the building so that the building could be used again by everybody, safely.
If we were to have taken on some of the disability works at that stage there would have been some issues around planning permissions, which would probably have delayed the restoration works. Given the urgency in relation to such issues as fire safety, we could not actually do that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I made reference to legislation. The Disability Act 2005 is clear in the sense that public bodies are required to ensure that public buildings are accessible for people with disabilities and disability-proofing, as I described it. It continues in terms of time compliance, which was a ten-year period by which all public buildings were to be compliant in that. It is welcome that disability-proofing or audits are being carried out now. Why only now? That legislation goes back to 2005. When was the last time an accessibility audit was carried out within the precincts?
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
I would have to check the last time that was done. However, the major issue with Leinster House is the restrictions on an historic building. If we were a modern building, some of these works would be a lot easier but we are determined on our side to do everything we possibly can to ensure there is proper universal access to Leinster House, and we will continue that in the coming years with the programme of works that I outlined.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome that. As the seat of where legislation comes from, we should be setting the gold standard. We should not fall below that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Where there is legislation to ensure that public bodies and public buildings are fully accessible, we should not drop the ball on that. I welcome the fact that works are going to be carried out. Some of the people engaged in that process expressed some disappointment at the slowness of that process. You might just give us a quick update on where that is. There are procurement issues, probably being led by the landlord, the OPW.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Reference has been made to the new lift and other items as part of that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is welcome. That is all the questions I have. Everyone else had other business to attend to. Before I conclude, like other members, I thank you, Peter, for your work. I have been here for a number of years now. I cannot claim to be a new TD anymore. Certainly, over my time in the Oireachtas, you and all your staff, everyone who works in here, have been phenomenal.
Obviously you, as the leader of that, have played a critical and pivotal role. I thank you not just for your engagement with me as a Member of the Oireachtas, but I think I can speak for everybody on this committee and within the Oireachtas in thanking you for your service and dedication. It is hugely appreciated and it means a lot. I wish you well in your future endeavours, whatever they may be. I note you are not on the presidential ticket-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----like some members here, but I wish you well in whatever endeavours the future holds for you.
Mr. Peter Finnegan:
Thank you very much for your kind remarks. I appreciate them. I would like to acknowledge the work and the support I get from everybody in the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is the team here, who have been of immense support in preparing for this meeting, and there are the wider staff in the Oireachtas, who go over and above, beyond the call, to serve the Oireachtas. It is a massive privilege to work in the Houses of Oireachtas and everybody does their absolute level best in terms of serving Members, serving the institution and developing the institution. I am departing but I have no doubt that commitment will continue in the time ahead. Thank you very much, Chair.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Mr. Finnegan, for that.
That concludes our engagement with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission for today. I again thank Mr. Finnegan and the other officials for attending our meeting. There were a number of specific requests from members that we will follow up, like costings for the provision of security by both the Garda and the Defence Forces. We will follow up on that.
Our meeting next week is with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, to discuss its 2024 financial statements.