John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone is very welcome to today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

The agenda for today is to discuss the accounts and statements, correspondence and upcoming meetings. Five sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 15 September 2025 and 23 September 2025 and are due to be considered today. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce these statements before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

First we have the Intestate Estates Fund account for 2024. I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to that account. I should point out that the figure of €3.2 million is the balance in the fund at the end of 2024.

No. 2 is the accounts, the financial statements, of the Office of the Planning Regulator for 2024. Those received a clear audit opinion.

No. 3 is the financial statements of the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland for 2024. They received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to two matters disclosed in the statement on internal control relating to the SBCI's administration of certain credit guarantee schemes that it operates on an agency basis on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. First, there were errors in the collection of credit guarantee premium payments between 2012 and 2024, which resulted in a total of €500,000 under-collected from borrowers, of which an estimated €300,000 is assessed as not recoverable. The second issue was 206 loans with an estimated aggregate value of €12.6 million which were guaranteed under the Ukrainian credit guarantee scheme where the loans may not have met the core criterion specified for the scheme.

No. 4 is the accounts of the Residential Tenancies Board for 2024. These received a clear audit opinion. However, in that case I drew attention to a material level of procurement non-compliance and also to the waiving of statutory late annual registration penalties and reimbursement to landlords of penalties collected totalling €1.23 million up to March 2024. There was a similar reimbursement of €1.67 million in 2023. These were not compliant with the legislation. The difficulty arose from the new ICT system that it put in place, which created difficulties for landlords in making the returns. They were automatically levied with these penalties through no fault of their own in many cases. The RTB decided, even though the law does not provide for it, that it was only fair that it would return the levies. The matter has been rectified from March 2024. The penalties are being applied.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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May we ask questions?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, if members want to come in. Deputy Bennett has indicated.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we ask the Residential Tenancies Board to appear before us? Is it on the list? I have heard a lot of complaints about the Residential Tenancies Board over the last year or two. Is it possible to get them in to get clarity on that?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are in the process of writing to it along with other Departments specifically on the implementation of ICT projects. We might wait to receive that correspondence, which might be more revealing and give us further angles. We will await that information first.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Bennett for raising that. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for clarifying that the fault was not on the landlords' side as such.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There may have been fault on the part of some landlords, but I think the board took a view that most of them would have been innocently unable to make the registrations they were required to make.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In relation to ICT, as we go on, we forget all the issues that arise with ICT. Before calling in the relevant Departments, is there any way we can itemise all the issues that have come up as an explanation for mistakes or errors made? Would that be a possible task?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was agreed at last week's meeting that we will write to all Departments.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As the accounts come up, over and over ICT is pointed out to us as an issue. Do we have to go back and trawl through that for those Departments? Is there any easy way? That is my first question and the Cathaoirleach might just think about it.

The other issue goes back to the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland. Serious errors have been identified and criteria not complied with. That has been pointed out to us by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Where are we going with that? Has there been a review of these mistakes by the relevant Departments? What has been learned?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

SBCI has carried out reviews and it has identified the reasons some of these errors were made. Obviously, it is disclosing in its statement on internal control, SIC, the steps it has taken to try to avoid these happening.

The interesting thing about the guarantee schemes is that most of them are off-balance sheet. It is basically a guarantee between the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and the financial institutions that are doing the lending. The cost or the loss is actually a loss to the Vote for enterprise rather than to SBCI. SBCI was only the agent. It is complex and interesting. The guarantee and the value of the guarantee is not evident when looking at SBCI’s financial statements; it can only be seen when looking at the Vote. There may be a question of the visibility of those schemes and what is involved in them that the Deputy might like to discuss with the Department. Ultimately, it is the one at a loss.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ultimately, it is the public purse.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Ultimately, it is the public purse, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is very relevant. Is the Department coming before us?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I should point out that in relation to the 206 loans, the lending that was guaranteed was to the value of €12.6 million, but most of those loans, even though they may not have qualified to be covered by the scheme, were good loans. The amounts were repaid and there was no expense. I do not wish to give the impression there was a loss of €12.6 million. That is not the point. It is about the eligibility for the cover. It is almost like an insurance cover.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy for the clarification.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding those 206 loans, do we have visibility in terms of loans that may be in distress that were issued under inaccurate criteria?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

From memory, there is quite an extensive and complex note in the Vote for enterprise for 2024. That is where you can get visibility on the kinds of losses that are being incurred. They are relatively small, which is what you would hope for. Inevitably, there is some loss. That is the nature of a credit guarantee scheme. You will be able to see it in the 2023 Vote for enterprise, but the latest information will also be in the 2024 Vote, which will be available next week.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Any loss that is incurred through a loan that did not follow the proper criteria is a serious matter. Is it possible for us to delve into that a little bit and seek clarification on the number of loans issued through inappropriate criteria that ultimately ended up in distress? Can we clarify that point and get a value on it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The SBCI should be able to provide more information in that regard.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can we query that, Chair?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can correspond with the body to get clarity and further information.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the RTB, we are writing to it generally about ICT. Can we specifically ask about the issue at hand here in that correspondence? Can we specifically raise this point instead of just a more generic letter?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can do so. We are writing to each Department in the first instance. We have engaged with the RTB but we are writing to each Department to get a breakdown of all ICT projects that have been implemented over the last number of years by each Department, their costings, whether they have been delivered on time and so forth. We will get further information on the RTB via the Departments. We will certainly follow up that correspondence the Deputy has requested.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are no other queries on that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The final set of financial statements for the committee to note is the appropriation account of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission for 2024, which is obviously the focus of today's public meeting. It received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to a material level of procurement non-compliance and also to the disclosure of an independent review that identified weaknesses in control over a minor construction project, which was, of course, the bicycle shelter. I will outline more in relation to that in the opening comments.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do any members wish to comment on that?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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To go back to the first one, the intestate estates fund, does that money go back into the public purse?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. Where there are no beneficiaries of an estate, it accrues to the State by law. Any resources are lodged first to the intestate estates fund account. They may be held there for a period because there may be expenses in finalising matters but, ultimately, the bulk of that €3.2 million may be brought to the Exchequer. It is at the discretion of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, advised by the Department of public expenditure, as to when and what amounts should be brought to the Exchequer.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does that figure remain roughly the same every year, or does it reach peaks?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Effectively, there is a flow in. The figure was about €900,000 in 2024. There was no outflow. There was a small payment of expenses in 2024 but, effectively, the balance has gone up from €2.3 million to €3.2 million because no money was transferred to the Exchequer.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have one final question then. It is at the discretion of the Minister for Finance in consultation with the Department for public expenditure.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is correct.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where would TDs see that money coming in? What account or project does it go into? Where is the transparency in relation to that for TDs?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Due to the requirement in the Constitution, all receipts of the State form one fund unless otherwise provided for by law. The proceeds of intestate estates go to the Exchequer.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Full stop.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is it. It becomes part of the general fund. There is no corresponding expenditure where you can say that a specific project was funded by intestate estates.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Seamus McCarthy.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do other members have any comments or queries at this stage? No. Is it agreed to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed.

Moving on to correspondence, we will now consider items of correspondence which have been received from Accounting Officers in Government bodies. These items were received between 10 July and 31 August. The committee has agreed to note and publish the following items.

No. R0203 is correspondence from Mr. Martin O'Sullivan, deputy director of the Arts Council, in response to the committee’s request for further information. This was raised at a previous meeting where Deputies McAuliffe and Neville had some reservations or further questions. Maybe we can defer that until they are present at next week's meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R0267 is correspondence received from Mr. Ken Spratt, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, regarding Westport Coast Guard station.

No. R0268 is correspondence received from Ms Lucy Nugent, chief executive of CHI, providing an update to the committee regarding non-compliant procurement disclosed in the 2023 financial statements of Children's Health Ireland. That was flagged by Deputy Farrelly. Does Deputy Farrelly wish to speak to that?

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This was yet another piece of correspondence that was flagged with regard to ICT infrastructure and whether we could seek some further information. It would be prudent, given how often we have seen IT projects, tenders and delivery coming under scrutiny at this committee.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That request was agreed to in private session. We are going to correspond further with CHI to get further information with regard to the ICT project.

We will move on to No. R0270, correspondence received from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. It is correspondence to the committee in relation to the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, with regard to contracts. That was flagged by Deputy Farrelly and we had a discussion about this in our private session earlier. Does Deputy Farrelly wish to speak to that?

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will briefly highlight what this breakdown does, notwithstanding the appropriate questions that will be raised about the nature of how this table is formatted and how we can come up with an accurate costing of this. It is to highlight the difference in costing between some counties. For example, in Kildare it averages more than €90 per night whereas in other counties, it is significantly less. From a public accounts perspective, it merits us having a further discussion about how services are procured in this area. We will meet them in due course and I look forward to having that opportunity to discuss it.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is included on our work programme that we will have the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration in before us on 23 October. That is specifically to look at the IPAS situation and expenditure. We spoke about this in our private session and I know other members have specific questions regarding expenditure in different areas. Members will have additional questions so it was agreed we would try to compile some of those questions in advance of that meeting with the Department to try get specific answers to specific questions in advance to help inform us before that engagement on 23 October. If that is agreeable, we will move on.

The committee has also agreed to note and publish the following items of correspondence: No. R0271, correspondence received from Ms Kate Duggan, chief executive of Tusla, regarding non-compliant procurement disclosed in the 2023 financial statements of Tusla; No. R0272, correspondence received from Ms Joan Crawford, CEO of the Legal Aid Board in relation to non-compliant procurement; No. R0273, correspondence received from Mr. Tony O'Brien, chairperson of the Peter McVerry Trust, regarding the committee's request to attend a meeting; No. R0276, correspondence received from Ms Mary Hurley, Secretary General of the Department of Rural and Community Development, regarding the late laying of the 2023 financial statements of An Foras Teanga; and No. R0277, correspondence received from Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, regarding the late laying of the 2023 financial statements of Waterways Ireland.

No. 7 is the work programme. The committee has agreed its work programme until 6 November 2025 and has published its work programme for 2025. It has been agreed that on Thursday, 2 October 2025, we will discuss the 2024 financial statements of Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. On Thursday, 9 October 2025, we will discuss the financial statements of Beaumont Hospital and the National Treatment Purchase Fund. On Thursday, 16 October, we will discuss the 2024 financial statements of the Health Service Executive. On Thursday, 23 October 2025, we will discuss the 2024 appropriation accounts of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to consider Vote 21 - Prisons, and Vote 24 - the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. On Thursday, 6 November, we will discuss the 2024 financial statements of Uisce Éireann.

Are there any other items the committee wishes to discuss under any other business?

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to go back to the correspondence from the Peter McVerry Trust and ask the Comptroller and Auditor General about the delay in filing the 2023 accounts. The letter goes into some detail about that. Would he mind giving his own opinion about the delay?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not actually audit the Peter McVerry Trust. I know no more about it than is presented in the letter. I think the trust is indicating it is about to file the financial statements with the companies office and with the Charities Regulator. Obviously, that will bring significant information into the public domain in due course.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The requirement is that the accounts should be filled sooner than two years with the companies office. Is that correct, in Mr. McCarthy's experience?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Obviously, the earlier financial statements can be filled, the better for anybody who is interested in an enterprise. Last September, I reported on some of the difficulties it was having with the compilation of complete and accurate financial statements. The work on that has continued. It has been a significant challenge for the Peter McVerry Trust.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Just to clarify, the Comptroller and Auditor General does not audit these accounts but they come before us on a voluntary basis. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is my understanding of it.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I thank Mr. McCarthy.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will now suspend the meeting until 10.30 a.m. and resume session three with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.