Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Deputy Maeve O'Connell and Senator Mike Kennelly.

You are all very welcome today. I will first go through a bit of housekeeping. I ask those attending remotely to mute their microphones when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

Witnesses within the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

On the agenda for today's meeting is a discussion on student accommodation with the following witnesses. From the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, Mr. Henry McGarvey, vice president for finance and corporate affairs; from Technological University Dublin, TUD, Dr. Deirdre Lillis, president; from the South East Technological University, SETU, Professor Veronica Campbell, president; from the Technological University of the Shannon - Midlands Midwest, Professor Vincent Cunnane, president; and from Munster Technological University, MTU, Professor Maggie Cusack, president.

You are all very welcome to the meeting. We have received five opening statements. I ask the witnesses to please keep to the time limit of five minutes each. I call on Mr. Garvey from ATU to give his opening statement.

Mr. Henry McGarvey:

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak with them today. First, I extend apologies on behalf of the president of the ATU, Dr. Orla Flynn, who is unable to attend due to prior commitments.

The ATU is a multicampus technological university situated in the west and north west of Ireland. It has a total student population of more than 30,000 students which, together with a growing research capacity, makes it one of the largest universities in Ireland, and the largest outside of Dublin, reflecting our ambition and the trust our students place in us. With campuses stretching from Donegal to Galway, we are playing a pivotal role in driving educational opportunity, skills development and regional growth across the west and north west. We are a multicultural university, with more than 70 nationalities represented in the student and staff population. We are proud of this rich diversity and welcome people from every corner of the world to come study, research or work at one of our campuses.

The ambitions for the university are growing with the expansion student and staff numbers and the number of programmes on offer. This year, two major new programmes have been offered for the first time in the region, namely pharmacy and physiotherapy. Next year, we will have our first intake to the bachelor of veterinary medicine and surgery. Our students include in excess of 1,500 apprentices and 4,000 postgraduates. In 2024, a total of 8,561 students graduated from the ATU, many of whom are building careers in the region. We welcomed almost 5,000 new first-year students across our nine campuses last week at induction, which is a 5% increase in numbers compared with last year. Net acceptances increased by 10% year on year, reflecting the growing demand for our programmes. Our priority is to help them feel connected from the outset and to provide structures that enable them to thrive academically and personally.

The continued successful growth and development of the university as a key driver of the region and wider economy will benefit all its stakeholders. With no ATU-owned purpose-built student accommodation across the region that we serve, we are relying entirely on the private sector to address the accommodation demand for our students. For the more than 30,000 students, there are just over 2,000 purpose-built student accommodation spaces - approximately 2,000 in Sligo, 200 in Letterkenny and 50 in the east of Galway city, where we are located. The acute shortage of affordable student accommodation constitutes a significant barrier to the future growth and development of our university.

Comparable with the general housing crisis, the private market has failed to adequately address the demand for student housing. The high cost of land, construction and financing has made it difficult for private developers to provide affordable housing options for students. Having land available, the university can deliver on-campus, purpose-built student accommodation in multiple locations across the west and north-west region, providing a mechanism to overcome many of the challenges of the student accommodation crisis and, in turn, relief in respect of the wider housing crisis. The increased provision of student accommodation will help serve to ameliorate the current housing crisis and associated economic costs it is creating for the local, regional and national economies.

The development of student accommodation at affordable rents is generally not commercially viable, and private developers are targeting other markets where higher returns can be achieved. Unlike the traditional universities, the technological universities and institutes of technology have been unable to develop their own managed student accommodation, resulting in full exposure to private sector market forces without the buffer of their own provision. This situation is further exacerbated in regional and rural areas where limited, if any, viable public transport commuting options exist, leaving long daily commutes by private car as the only alternative. For those reasons, it is considered essential that Government intervention is provided to alleviate this crisis. The university’s strategic vision seeks to create a diverse campus environment and identifies the systemic shortage of student accommodation as a major barrier to access.

The availability of student accommodation has been found to be a key determining factor in whether students will go to college and where they choose to attend. Providing affordable, quality student accommodation will facilitate increased accessibility for all students, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. The provision of flexible student accommodation will give students the opportunity to attend the university availing of flexible, high-quality accommodation, which contributes to student well-being, reduces traffic on our roads, alleviates parking issues in and around our campuses and also reduces the time students spend commuting. The university identifies the provision of facilities and amenities as key drivers in student success and key components of a vibrant university community.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everyone has a copy of Mr. McGarvey's opening statement. I will move on to our next speaker, Dr. Deirdre Lillis. Dr. Lillis has five minutes.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, Teachtaí Dála agus Seanadóirí. TU Dublin has more than 27,000 students and 3,500 staff across five campuses: Grangegorman, Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Aungier Street and Bolton Street. We offer programmes, from apprenticeships to PhDs, in science, engineering, business, arts and tourism, driving talent and innovation for Dublin and Ireland. Ranked highest for graduate employability in the city, we pride ourselves on opening career doors for students from all backgrounds. Our students reflect Ireland’s diversity, representing every county and 138 nationalities.

Our surveys show that 46% of our students commute over 60 minutes, while 13% commute more than 90 minutes to class. I welcome the chance to discuss student accommodation. Housing availability and affordability directly affect access, well-being and Ireland’s ability to develop talent. Dublin faces a severe shortage of purpose-built, affordable options. TU Dublin currently has no on-campus accommodation. Adding student beds across our campuses would transform campus life. Student housing is more than a place to sleep; it builds well-being, belonging, academic success and peer learning. While some students choose to live at home, many face three-to-four-hour round trips because accommodation is either unavailable or unaffordable. This is exhausting, distressing, unfair and risks students dropping out.

Practice-based learning is central at TU Dublin. We partner with employers to give students real-world experience through placements and projects. Without accessible accommodation, the quality of work-integrated learning and our graduates’ work-readiness are at risk. It is important also to note that TU trains the electricians, engineers, apprentices and tradespeople who are vital to Ireland’s construction and engineering sectors. Enrolments in these fields must be supported because they are fundamental to Ireland’s economic growth, social inclusion and national infrastructure.

Our campuses are beacons of opportunity. On-campus accommodation would energise Tallaght, Blanchardstown and Grangegorman campuses, for example, especially in the evenings and at weekends. It would enable year-round community, enterprise and academic use. We are open to innovative models, including dual-use accommodation for enterprise or other key workers outside of term time or week-weekend models, adding capacity to the wider housing ecosystem.

We must not forget that some students will always struggle with affordability. For others, personal circumstances will make it impossible. We must remember that TUs were founded to provide accessible education through strong local community links, including to students who are the first in their families to attend higher education. In this debate, we must ensure any investment in additional student accommodation is balanced with convenient travel options and other essential services for all students.

A key enabler is a borrowing framework for TUs. Even modest borrowing would let us deliver student accommodation and enhanced services, while protecting the State’s balance sheet. The first graduate of a technological university was more than 130 years ago from Kevin Street, but the upcoming Seanad election is the first time TU graduates will be able to vote. TU graduates helped build this State, and TU students deserve opportunities equal to those of their counterparts in traditional universities. TUs must have the same access to borrowing frameworks, capital supports and State-backed financing. TU Dublin strongly supports the technological universities association’s pre-budget submission, which calls for capital funding to meet rising student demand and investment in technology, estates and cybersecurity. We welcome the current programme for Government’s commitments on State-financed student accommodation and borrowing frameworks for TUs. We urge the forthcoming student accommodation strategy to 2035 to meet these commitments.

I thank the committee for its work and the opportunity to engage in this debate. We want our young people to have a full, meaningful college experience equal to or better than that of their parents, whatever their circumstances. TU Dublin stands ready to work with the Government, the technological university sector and stakeholders to deliver affordable student accommodation while improving services for all students. Is bunriachtanas é seo d’fhorbairt shóisialta agus gheilleagrach na hÉireann. This is vital for Ireland’s social and economic development. Go raibh mile maith agaibh.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

Good morning. I am the president of SETU. I thank the committee for the invitation to be here today.

South East Technological University, SETU, was established in 2022 under the Technological Universities Act. It is the only university in the south-east region, a region that spans from north Wexford to west Waterford. The Central Statistics Office reports that the level of third level attainment in the south-east region still remains below the national average, so the presence of SETU in the region is critical to balanced regional development. With the population of the region expected to significantly increase by 2040, the role of the university will be central to educational opportunity for all.

There are 18,000 students currently studying at SETU. Our graduates are working in highly skilled areas such as the ICT, pharmaceutical and agrifood sectors, as well as within the HSE, construction or service industries. Their attributes are appreciated by the multinational companies located in the south east, as well as by the indigenous industry and public sector employers in the region.

Our academic programmes and therefore our graduates are responding to the green and digital transitions and opportunities associated with the blue economy and AI. SETU’s research community is actively engaged in these areas through our four Enterprise Ireland technology gateways and with funded research projects involving international academic partners and industry. SETU therefore plays an important role in driving economic, social and cultural development for the south-east region through the graduate talent pipeline and our research impact.

Placing the student at the heart of what we do as a technological university is expressed in our strategic plan. This is about ensuring an environment that is conducive to academic success. Affordable student accommodation located on or close by a university campus supports the integration of students into the life of the university, removes the deleterious impact of long commute times and positively impacts student welfare and academic success. A residential campus brings life to the campus in the evening and creates a vibrant environment within the university for our students’ benefit.

SETU is the only technological university with purpose-built student accommodation, yet we still face major challenges. SETU currently has on-campus provision of 432 beds. However, there is a growing unmet demand with 715 students on the waiting list at the start of this academic year and we have seen that waiting list increase by 73% over the past three years.

In the private market, between 2022 and 2025, available student bed spaces in Waterford dropped by 467 beds further exacerbating the competition for accommodation within the private student accommodation market. The students' union president, Erin Foley, has also recently advised me that some of the rooms in the private market are of extremely poor quality, which is very stressful for the affected students.

SETU is actively working on solutions to expand the amount of accommodation we can offer to our students. We have identified sites on our campuses in Waterford and Carlow and have undertaken feasibility studies in relation to building purpose-built student accommodation on those sites. This information was submitted, via the Higher Education Authority, last summer as part of a long list of options for consideration to unlock the student accommodation crisis that we face. We continue to be open to exploring all options and models through which to deliver affordable student accommodation in the south-east region.

SETU is ambitious for its future as the anchor higher education institution in the south-east. With new programmes, including in pharmacy and veterinary medicine, an impactful research and knowledge transfer portfolio and a very deep commitment to access to education, SETU is carrying out its role, as outlined in legislation, for the region. Delivering student accommodation is critical for student success and ensuring the talent pipeline. We cannot deliver additional accommodation without partnership with Government and I look forward to exploring all options along with my colleagues from across the technological university sector. Thank you.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Professor Campbell. I now call on Professor Vincent Cunnane.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

A Chathaoirligh, Teachtaí agus Seanadóirí, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil libh as cuireadh a thabhairt dom freastal anseo inniu.

Chair, Deputies, Senators, thank you for the invitation to address the committee today. It is an honour and a welcome opportunity to contribute to the committee's work in shaping Irish higher education policy.

As president of the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, I lead a young institution that already serves more than 15,000 students across seven campuses in the midlands and midwest. We are deeply embedded in our communities, working with local enterprise, industry, and civic partners to widen participation and strengthen regional development.

TUS is built on a shared set of core values and we seek to open doors to higher education for all, regardless of background. We are ambitious for our students and staff, aiming to match local needs with global standards and we work in partnership with enterprise, community and Government to deliver impact. Our strategy is to be a university without walls - connected to place but outward-looking and building bridges between learning, research and real-world applications.

Our vision to 2030 is to be a catalyst for sustainable change through education and research that transforms lives, our region and the wider world. To achieve this, our strategic priorities are clear, namely, to deliver high-quality and flexible education, to grow research and innovation capacity, particularly applied research that addresses real-world problems, to nurture our people and organisation in order that everyone can reach their potential and to connect with communities locally, nationally, and internationally.

TUS is only one part of a much larger story. The five technological universities together now enrol well over 100,000 students. Collectively, we operate across 30 campuses nationwide in the most geographically distributed higher education network in the country. That distribution matters; it means opportunity, talent and innovation are not confined to the major cities but are seeded across every region of the State and are delivered through modes including full time, part-time, apprenticeship and flexible, and across QQI levels 6 to 10.

Our sector also represents a significant national workforce in its own right. Across the five technological universities, we now employ almost 10,000 staff - academic, research, professional, and support - delivering education, research, and services in direct partnership with our regions. At TUS alone, we employ over 1,500 staff. This scale underlines both the opportunity and the scale inherent in our sector.

The overall socioeconomic impact is substantial. Individually each TU is a major regional economic engine; collectively the sector’s contribution runs into the billions of euro annually. Beyond the operational spend and student expenditure, the long-term return to the Exchequer from graduates, the innovation capacity generated by research and the high employment rates of our graduates in key industrial areas all make the sector a cornerstone of Ireland’s sustainable economic growth.

However, there are also serious challenges that limit our capacity to deliver fully on this mission. I will highlight two. The first is sustainable funding. The ambition placed on TUs in respect of regional development, access, research and skills for a dynamic economy must be matched with a sustainable funding model. The second is purpose-built student accommodation, PBSA. In regional centres such as Limerick and Athlone, demand for accommodation far outstrips supply. Without targeted investment in PBSA, access to higher education will remain constrained, especially for students from under-represented backgrounds for whom the absence of affordable and secure housing can be a decisive barrier. Further, the experience of university of many students will be compromised with long-term negative effects. TUS is committed to playing our part in delivering and developing solutions but the challenge requires a coherent national strategy and funding response.

To be clear, I believe that there are opportunities to provide solutions both on-campus and campus-adjacent, but we need to be enabled to develop and to operate PBSA to turn these opportunities into realities. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss further the mechanisms that could allow us to do this, something that we all have a shared interest in doing. Despite these challenges, the opportunities before us are considerable. Technological universities can expand Ireland’s research and innovation capacity, support lifelong learning, and anchor balanced regional development in line with Project Ireland 2040. We are central to Ireland’s competitiveness in a knowledge economy, but also to its cohesion as a society. To this end, the technological universities are forming a new representative and advocacy body for our sector, the Technological Universities Association or TUA, which we are happy to discuss with you.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Professor Cunnane. To be fair to the other speakers, we will move on.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

Good morning everyone, I am Professor Maggie Cusack, president of MTU. On behalf of all our students of MTU, I welcome this opportunity to discuss student accommodation with the joint committee.

MTU was established in 2021. We have six campuses across Cork and Kerry with 2,000 staff members and 18,000 students. Since I became president in 2021, I have seen students really struggle with the housing crisis and lack of affordable and suitable accommodation. This has become the number one concern for students and a critical issue for equity of access, student well-being and the future of Ireland’s knowledge economy. We agree with the statement in the programme for Government, which reads, “The knowledge economy remains key to our international competitiveness.” The formation of five technological universities in four years from 2019 to 2022 is evidence of the national commitment to our knowledge economy. The TUs are providing regional access to third level education, supporting the social and economic vitality of our regions through our skills provision, research, innovation and entrepreneurship and delivering on the national access plan.

MTU’s first economic and social impact study indicates a minimum annual economic impact of €979 million - almost €1 billion. We are proud to offer a range of access routes to support learners. Some of our students are the first in their families to attend university. We see many from communities who are traditionally under-represented in third level education. Our students face a myriad of challenges, with Covid-19 having had generational impact and the cost-of-living crisis and the housing crisis being major factors in their struggles to access affordable accommodation. Our students deserve better.

Since there have been no opportunities for Cork Institute of Technology, Institute of Technology, Tralee or MTU to build student accommodation, we at MTU we do not have any of our own accommodation. As a consequence, many of our students travel to campus each day. They are missing out on a quality student experience and the full benefits of campus life and peer learning. There are societal and economic knock-on effects of commuting, too, such as congestion in our communities and the undermining of our climate action targets. At the moment, there is only one TU in Ireland with its own student beds. SETU has 432 student beds. The TUs collectively have 106,000 students, so we have beds for 0.4% of the TU student population.

In the pre-budget submission from the TUA, we welcome the programme for Government commitment to develop a multi-annual plan to urgently deliver new student accommodation, including through State-financed, purpose-built student accommodation on public or private lands and to enable technological universities to borrow funds to provide for on-campus student accommodation. Policy must now follow through on its commitments for our students, society and economy and address external factors, including the national housing crisis and our climate targets. The programme for Government acknowledges that the market alone cannot deliver student accommodation without direct State intervention to ensure project viability. While MTU has the capacity to develop on-campus housing, even excluding land costs, financial support will still be required to deliver purpose-built student accommodation. A co-ordinated, sector-wide approach is essential. Governing bodies cannot be left to shoulder unsupported investment decisions that would expose them to substantial construction and operational risks over long timeframes. Their role is to provide sound financial oversight and they will not accept the level of market risk currently inherent in these projects without State backing. For the Government, the return on investment is substantial, even with a limited support model that would see the State support limited to projected revenue returns. These may be conservatively estimated at 30% to 35%.

At MTU, we have completed our demand analysis and identified land for on-campus student accommodation in Kerry and Cork. We have gone as far as we can since we require derogated authority from the HEA to proceed to planning permission. It is essential that we build upon the work that individual TUs and the HEA, with the Department of further higher education through preliminary business cases, have already done and not start the clock again with an entirely new initiative. These are projects that can be fast-tracked and delivered within the current Government’s term of office. Honouring the programme for Government commitment to enable the technological universities to borrow funds to provide for on-campus student accommodation is essential for the TUs to provide on-campus student accommodation, to improve the student experience, contribute positively to our climate and housing crisis, and diversify income to TUs for investment in student supports.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Professor Cusack for her statement.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witnesses are very welcome. I thank them for the great work they are doing. We are very proud of the advances they have made over the past number of years across the country. Two of my colleagues from TUS and the ATU, Mr. McGarvey and Professor Cunnane, are present. ATU was the first university north of the Dublin-Galway line since the formation of the State. For me and many others, it is a game-changer. There are new programmes put in ATU, such as pharmacy and veterinary medicine. People do not fully understand the advances and services that the witnesses have ensured.

It is housing, housing, housing. I am a Government Member and housing is our priority. There are a lot of priorities, but housing is the priority that I hear about across the country. We had Mr. Emil Kindl before the committee last week, who is the ATU student union president, along with other presidents. They were very direct and robust, but they were very measured. We heard loud and clear the challenges students faced. The witnesses have outlined the challenges they face as well.

The high cost of land, construction and finance has made it difficult for developers. We have to provide solutions. We have the strategy coming out in October. I look forward to that strategy. Mr. McGarvey mentioned transport. The Local Link services have certainly helped a little bit. There is also the Sligo-Dublin railway line. We need trains coming from Carrick-on-Shannon and Longford into Sligo in the morning. All these things help.

We had awful issue, and the witnesses might elaborate on Milligan Court and Benbulben Court. As I said last week, the developer put the two fingers up to everybody. Is there anything we could have done or can do to stop that kind of greed happening again and address the shortage of beds? I thank the student unions, the witnesses before us and all the stakeholders for the work they did for enabling people through renting out extra rooms. It helped, but it was only putting a plaster on a difficult situation.

I look forward to hearing the witnesses' views on what we can do. I am speaking as a Government Member. We need to borrow funds and the TUs need to be given every tool in the box to enable the delivery of student accommodation. If student accommodation accounts for 500 apartments in Sligo town, Letterkenny, Athlone or wherever, it takes the pressure off housing. It is a no-brainer. What more can the Government do in this strategy that is coming up soon?

I thank the witnesses for the great work they do.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

I thank the Deputy very much. To reiterate, the enablement of a borrowing framework is crucial for us. It is provided for in the Technological Universities Act, but it has not been activated yet in terms of a process. We and our governing bodies understand the importance of having a viable business plan around any borrowing and the appropriate governance approval steps around that. We are all absolutely committed to that. Unlocking the borrowing framework would be valuable for our technological sector.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

To reiterate and perhaps to add to that, trusting us is important. We are mature institutions at this point. We have very elaborate and enhanced governance frameworks. We have stepped up to the plate at this point. We have arrived as a sector. What we do very well is we know the needs of our local communities and regions. We know how to adapt, flex and respond. We have levelled up and we should be trusted because we will work with stakeholders in our regions to do what is best for everyone. It is not just about what we want. It is how we serve our regions.

Mr. Henry McGarvey:

I thank the Deputy for the comments. I agree with my colleagues on the borrowing framework. On the specific question Deputy Feighan asked about the issues in Sligo and the space that was lost to the student population, which was well publicised, going forward my understanding is that purpose-built student accommodation will come with planning for students. It will require a change in planning in the future whereby it will not be easily taken out of the student population. If it is meant for students, it will remain for students. That is important going forward.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

We are all in complete agreement on the borrowing framework. It is a key enabler and it is really fundamentally important to this. I wish to emphasise that piece. It would enable the technological universities to control and manage the accommodation for their student bodies to make sure it remains affordable. That is fundamentally important to us and it is a really important point in terms of equity of access to education.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

I obviously agree with my colleagues but the borrowing capacity needs to be flexible as well. Sometimes, as a State, we try to get a single solution - here is a particular form of borrowing capacity. There must be the ability to have more than a one-size-fits-all. Putting student accommodation into Clonmel is different to putting it into Limerick or Athlone. We need flexibility within that borrowing framework to allow us to do a number of different activities depending on the needs of the region which we are serving.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses and call Senator Laura Harmon.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions. It is very clear that they have solutions and the will to solve this. They want to take action but are being prevented from doing that because we still do not have a plan in place and the commitments in the programme for Government need to be honoured, as they rightly said. We had student unions from across the country addressing the committee last week. They would wholeheartedly agree with what the witnesses are saying today as well. I was president of the national students union ten years ago. This is an issue that is preventable and predictable and it has been exacerbating over the last decade or more. We knew technological universities were being created and mergers were happening and this should have been done sooner.

I wish to make some observations. What Professor Cusack said really stuck me in that she believes this is the number one concern for students and a critical issue of access to education. I agree with her on that. When students and families are looking at college course placements, the first thing they think of is where the students are going to live and how they are going to get there. That should not be the case. It also struck me that over 100,000 students are attending technological universities in this sector but there are only 0.4% available beds. That is outrageous to me - it is mind-boggling - and it is affecting the student experience. I live in Cork myself. My mother is a graduate of MTU and my sister is attending there. I see the congestion. I get contacted about it every day. I hear about students being left on the side of the road because there are not enough buses. Students with disabilities cannot get on the bus. People with travel passes are being left behind as well. The transport is not even able to keep up with it. We know there are waiting times for driving tests as well so even people who want to drive are being delayed. It is also affecting climate, as was rightly said. We need to have that borrowing mechanism in place and the technological universities need to be able to get on with it and not have obstructions in their way. It is very clear that there needs to be more collaboration between the Department of housing and the Department of further and higher education. There needs to be more of a cross-departmental approach and action in relation to this. It cannot be passed between different Departments and Ministers. I would be interested to hear the witnesses' views on what they would like to see done this year, as a first point on this.

Mr. McGarvey mentioned students with disabilities in the context of access to on-campus accommodation. How can we improve that access for those students? I wanted to comment in response to what Dr. Lillis said regarding the referendum in 1979 for non-NUI graduates to be able to vote in Seanad elections. As a Senator, I think it is outrageous that by the time those graduates will get the opportunity to vote it will probably be 50 years - half a century - since that referendum. They have been disenfranchised. Imagine the number of Oireachtas Members we might have seen over the last 50 years who might have been speaking up for this particular cohort. It was interesting that Mr. McGarvey mentioned that. I will leave it there if the witnesses want to reply to those questions.

Mr. Henry McGarvey:

I can respond to that. Regarding the specific question on students with disabilities, it just goes back to the lack of student accommodation on site. Again, it is all about access. For students with disabilities, having to travel long distances and long commutes just exacerbates the challenges they have. It is really one other item to add to a long list of reasons we need that accommodation on site.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Professor Cusack wish to respond?

Professor Maggie Cusack:

I thank the Senator for those comments. She asked a specific question about what should be done in the short term. I would repeat the fact that a lot of work has been done. The technical universities have really worked with the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We have done preliminary business cases and the needs analysis and we have identified the land, so that piece on the borrowing framework really unlocks it. I really hope we can built on the work that has been done rather than start again or reinvent things.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

Just to go back to that need and what we can do immediately. We await with bated breath the national student accommodation strategy, which should come out before the end of October. This has been a long time in gestation. As Professor Cusack has just said, we have been working over many years to try to advance the case for student accommodation. In March 2024, we put in, as a sector, 53 different projects across a variety of activities. These include working with the private sector, purpose-built student accommodation, refurbishment, digs - everything that we could possibly imagine. We also worked with our local councils to identify land and space they could utilise for student accommodation. Those 53 projects are real but we await the outcome of the analysis of that since March 2024. There is frustration within the sector. We did a lot of work then but we have not really heard anything since. The national student accommodation strategy should be core to what is going on. We hope it will provide opportunities for us to move forward at pace, as opposed to us being asked to do another set of analysis, which may have been Professor Cusack's point. We are beyond the analysis phase. We want to get into action but it needs decisions from the State and that is why the national student accommodation strategy, as we await it, is so central to that.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

I agree with the comments made by my colleagues. Coming back to the transport issue, we have done a lot of work with local transport providers in the south east as well and that has been very fruitful in opening up new transport routes, which has helped our students, and also the timetabling in terms of more convenient arrival times to campus, etc. We have done a lot of that and that has certainly eased things for certain students who are travelling shorter distances but it does not alleviate the overall issue around student accommodation, which we are here to discuss.

We still have significant pressure points in this regard, but we are very much engaging with local transport providers.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for this opportunity. I have met some of them, and actually visited some. The sense that I got when I came away from meeting them was that we are not just talking about buildings here but also about the people within them, and how the universities are trying their best to enhance the student experience. That comes across very clearly, particularly from the talk about all the strategising and analysis that is done. The witnesses are doing this for the students, not themselves.

On the repurposing of student accommodation, what shocked me most was not just that it was repurposed but also that it was left vacant for a year. Am I correct about that? In the middle of an accommodation crisis, to have any vacancy for a year is absolutely scandalous. I hope this was not replicated around the country. Last week, the student union representatives we had before us were telling us about this.

Do the witnesses know how many students have availed of the rent a room scheme? That was another initiative which had to be addressed. Unfortunately, students are saying that digs are their last resort. Not all digs work out badly; some students have had a very positive experience. However, there are severe issues with digs. This something that we are trying to work on. The fact that you could be turfed out on the road tomorrow by your landlord is an issue, but there should be protections in place for both landlords and students.

As Professor Cusack said, having beds for just 0.4% of the student population points to blatant inequity. Do the witnesses know the figures for dropouts as a result of a lack of accommodation or the fact that accommodation is not affordable? Some parents who have come to me are actively trying to persuade their children not to go on to further or higher education, simply because of affordability. We are going back to circumstances in which education will be for the privileged. We cannot have that.

Another big issue that came up was accommodation scams. I visited 18 students who are living in a two-bedroom house in Limerick. These were international students, so they did not have local knowledge. They landed and did not know each other. An advertisement given to them indicated they were to be sharing with three others. They all landed together with their suitcases. They could not even fit into the house. Once again, it falls back onto the universities to try to put some measures in place to tackle this. It is another administrative burden. Are measures being put in place to address this? If students, international or otherwise, are being scammed, it is not a good picture to send out to those considering further and higher education.

We all know that, with the inequity, student life should include on-campus accommodation. There are those who feel isolated from their fellow students because they have long commutes. Some of them have to work long, hard hours as well as study.

The RPZ rules give rise to another issue that might be coming down on the witnesses. Borrowing should definitely be considered immediately. All the plans, analysis and land are in place, so I cannot see a reason the universities are not just trusted to do what needs to be done. As stated, there needs to be equality for all.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

There were a number of questions there. Recently, the TUS students' union in Moylish did an excellent survey of students – about 1,200 students replied – on accommodation type and so on. The Deputy asked a specific question on digs. The survey found that around 12.5% of students were availing of digs, which essentially means they are in the rent a room scheme. We would have a much higher percentage of students with difficulties if it were not for that scheme. It has definitely improved circumstances. Given that 1,200 students replied, the latest figures are instructive. Around 12.5% is the figure I can provide to the committee. There was a lot of dissatisfaction. Sixty per cent said they struggled to find accommodation and 30% said they struggled somewhat. Therefore, 90% of students seeking accommodation in the Moylish area struggled to find it. That is my answer to the direct question.

On the inequity that the Deputy highlighted, I absolutely agree with her. This is where the technological universities have really struggled. The borrowings of the established universities, according to the latest figures I have, amount to about €1.7 billion. You can ask whether that is good or bad, but that is not the point; the point is that the established universities have had access to State funding over a long period. With that State funding, they have been able to borrow, and with both State funding and borrowing they have built student accommodation serving about half the student body. The technological universities have close to half the student body, but only half have access to student accommodation. That is not enough, which I readily accept, but we have beds for only 0.4%. There is a genuine inequity in that regard and we have to ask ourselves, as presidents, what the matter is with our students such that they do not have any access, and why the State seemingly does not want to step up and fill the gap.

On the specific question about the 18 students, their circumstances are not one-off. That 18 students are living in a two-bedroom place within a few hundred metres of our Moylish campus in Limerick means there has been an absolute scam. We hope the local council, health and safety authorities and, indeed, the Garda will pursue the matter. We do not interface with landlords. It is a matter for the student and the landlord. When we became aware of the circumstances, we sent in our TUS global team and the students' union. We were able to remove our students and help others. To think that what occurred was an isolated incident would be a mistake. We have other instances that may not be as severe but that are still serious. I thank the Deputy very much for visiting and seeing for herself the conditions that prevailed in the accommodation. It is only because of the lack of accommodation that such scams are happening.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

I thank the Deputy for her comments on inequity. The point on inequity is something we all agree on. Everyone is putting multiple provisions in place to attempt to address this and help our students in respect of the rent-a-room scheme. As the Deputy said, many students see it as a last resort. It is not ideal. While it will help in some capacity, it is certainly not the answer to the entire issue.

Professor Cunnane mentioned the case of the 18 students, which is appalling. The point I want to emphasise is that this is systemic; it is not one university or region. Sometimes we talk about individual examples but when we remove that thinking we see the problem is absolutely systemic. We are doing everything we can. Transport has been mentioned. We heard the comment about MTU. One of the campuses, that at Bishopstown in Cork, certainly has huge traffic issues. We are putting in a park-and-ride facility to try to help people to do the right thing, thinking about climate and taking the stress off students. We are trying to address this in multiple ways.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their points and contributions. A special welcome for Professor Campbell, whom I met recently and who is based in my area, the south east.

I agree entirely with the points on the borrowing framework and flexibility. One size certainly does not fit all. We also definitely need to change the planning system so you cannot do what was outlined in terms of the changing of use. There is an awful lot of abuse of the system.

We have mentioned so many examples of exploitation. I raised this point last week with the students' union leaders. We have all outlined the emergency, and our guests have outlined it in very stark terms. We have to acknowledge that we are in the middle of an emergency in terms of student accommodation. That emergency is basically down to decades of failure to invest in dedicated student accommodation and in a house-building programme. From the 1930s to the 1950s, a period when the country was very poor, we were able to accommodate both students and our population in general. There is no reason that this cannot be done now.

One of the student leaders last week outlined how the international student body is being used as a cash cow due to underinvestment in the university sector. He said it is used by people as a way to supplement their income. I quoted some figures I got last week in terms of supply and demand. It is basic mathematics. There are 40,400 international students and 128,000 with visas who are here to study English. That is not typical of the EU. It is almost twice the EU average. There are many reasons for that, including the lack of funding. We have seen an increase in recent years of over 30% in the international cohort, whereas the domestic student cohort has gone up by just 5%. There is obviously a disparity. There are people who are exploiting it. Deputy McGettigan outlined the outrageous situation of 18 students in a two-bed house. We also mentioned previously that one in 20 international students claim they were asked for sex for rent. That is quite shocking.

The planning has to be sorted out and the borrowing framework. In terms of basic mathematics and logic, is it a sustainable model? The Government's accommodation strategy for 2030 is to increase the cohort of international students by a further 10%. As someone who used to teach maths to infants, I am just wondering whether it is a sustainable model if we cannot accommodate students. Do the witnesses think it is sustainable to say we need to have a greater international cohort? We are inviting people to come here to be exploited into homelessness. I do not think that is logical. Would Dr. Lillis be of the opinion that we need a more sustainable model? We are not saying the international students are not valued, but they are not to be exploited.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

The game we are in is the knowledge economy game, which is inherently global. There is a huge piece around attracting the best researchers, innovators and teachers to Ireland. It is very much played out in an international sphere. For any technological university, we have ambitions to be up there with the best of the universities in order that we can bring that back into our regions. That would be our motivation as a strategy for the university. There is no getting away from the fact that non-EU international student fees are a source of income for universities. However, I think it is the reason for doing it, and there is also the balance between that international cohort on our campuses versus what we are providing in our region. It is really important also that Irish students, even if they can never travel internationally and some cannot, get that multicultural experience by being in the same classes as international students. I would say it is essential in moderation. It should not drive a technological university strategy.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Dr. Lillis agree that the number at present would be moderate or does she think it is imbalanced?

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

Just speaking for TU Dublin, I would say it is absolutely in moderation. We have approximately 27,000 students overall while our international cohort is about 1,000. That is a good ratio. We would probably like to improve it a little in terms of more international students, but every international student needs quality accommodation. There are obvious restraints there. However, there are very good reasons to do this that have nothing to do with the financial aspects of it.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

I am happy to agree that home students really benefit from the whole international aspect of education. That diversity is a really important aspect of our universities.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

On the Deputy's comments about exploitation, nobody in this room would like to see domestic or international students exploited as they navigate their university experience. Certainly, we are all doing everything we can to ensure that does not happen. There is a very supportive environment for the students and a scaffold of holistic supports around that. We do step in if we hear about anything untoward.

In terms of the balance and the profile overall of the domestic and international students, we have about 500 non-EU international students across our cohort of 18,000 students, so we are very much a domestic market. Inward mobility of talent and talented students into the south-east region is really important, as is the outward mobility of our students in order that they get the same experience or, indeed, have internationalisation experiences at home in terms of their overall development as individuals. All of our technological universities are members of European universities, and that does bring international European students in and our students engaged in those European universities, which is hugely valuable for their own personal and academic development.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

The benefit of internationalisation at home is really positive as well for the downstream talent pool. It is a competitive market out there for international students. It is not that Ireland can just say it wants a certain number. We have to compete for that. One of the key things around competing is that we offer an integrated package, which is fees for the course and accommodation. That is what the parents of international students want. We cannot provide that integrated package. It goes back to accommodation. We believe we have reached a limit of what we can do. We cannot expand any more in terms of the number of international students we have because we cannot offer the integrated package in the context of accommodation.

There is a downstream negative as well. For the first time in many years, we are seeing incidents of racism increase. This is because of an assumption by a very limited number of people in society that students of different colours and backgrounds are taking accommodation away from Irish people. That is not the case. The numbers are very small, but the perception can be very damaging for students. Not only are we seeing exploitation in terms of scams and accommodation, but the levels of racism that our international students are subjected to are on the rise. If there was student accommodation that took away that perception, it would help.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree completely----

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry Deputy, we have gone three minutes over the time. We can come back for a second round. Senator Dee Ryan is next.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for joining the meeting late. I had a Commencement matter in the Seanad this morning. I was up there talking about University Hospital Limerick. I am now own here talking about the other very pressing matter for us in Limerick, which is accommodation and specifically student accommodation. I read all the opening statements. I thank our guests for the detail and for their time. I am conscious that they have just come through their busiest period, welcoming their students back on campuses and getting their teams back up and running. I hope that has been a good process for them. It is really timely to have them here with us today.

The budget discussions are ongoing. My colleagues and I in the Fianna Fáil Party meet the Minister, Deputy Lawless, regularly to discuss issues around further and higher education, including this burning issue of student accommodation.

The Minister is progressing his accommodation strategy, as we speak, which he expects to bring forward in the next quarter. So this is a really timely conversation to be having with the committee.

I am aware the Minister has met the witnesses since he was appointed. I know that as recently as last week, his officials met the witnesses to discuss solutions to progress matters as quickly as possible. The Minister is also working with the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation on finalising a borrowing framework, which will be coming back to the universities and on which we absolutely want to support the sector in doing the work that the witnesses have identified as needing to be done, and in enabling the witnesses to play their direct role in that, insofar as that is determined to be.

We absolutely acknowledge that it is not acceptable that the technological universities are distinct in this way or that they do not have the capacity to deliver on behalf of their students. We fully acknowledge the very important role the technological universities have played in our economic recovery in the last decades and the very important role they continue to fulfil today in ensuring that our country is prepared to embrace the economic opportunities of the future and to meet the demands we have right now in our economy and the important work that needs to be done, not least of which is the construction sector. The technological universities produce very many graduates in the construction sector and I thank them also for that.

I will ask Professor Cunnane a couple of questions specific to Limerick but if there are similar comparisons in the other witnesses' areas that they would like to tell us about I would welcome hearing them. Professor Cunnane mentioned last year the analysis that was done on demand and capacity to deliver, which was presented to the Department. In Limerick, TUS has signed a memorandum of understanding with Limerick Twenty Thirty, which is the development wing of the local authority, to deliver some student accommodation. The site is at Cleeves Riverside Quarter, which is State-owned land. That is also being supported through the URDF to get it going. Perhaps Professor Cunnane will tell us a bit about that.

Our mayor in Limerick has some very innovative, rapid-build solutions on display in one of our parks in Limerick city for what is called "smart housing". These are, essentially, stackable modular homes in units that could be implemented quickly onto sites where services are available, with planning obviously. Does the professor see any room for that in what TUS can deliver in Limerick?

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

I thank the Senator for her interest, as always, in this space. Yes we have signed a memorandum of understanding for the Cleeves site in Limerick, which is State-owned land there. Two facets for us would be to take on a significant teaching component there and to transfer of a number of students, up to 1,000 students, from our land at the constrained or limited Moylish site and take them into the city centre. This would revive the city centre as well with 1,000 students. We are also in talks with Limerick Twenty Thirty about the student accommodation. As the Senator has rightly said, this is State-owned land. Through Limerick Twenty Thirty, a designated activity company, DAC, that is an offshoot of Limerick City and County Council, there is an opportunity to do things in a different way rather than just through the State-owned activities and this may break some barriers. Certainly the belief is that Limerick Twenty Thirty would be in a position to borrow money and build student accommodation that would be a nexus for students from TUS, Mary Immaculate College and UL.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any number on the potential there?

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

We would see several hundred. I do not have the figure off the top of my head but it is around 600 I think.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which would be fantastic for the city centre.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

It would start to make an impression.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. Our time is running down. Have there any been any discussions for a meanwhile use of that State-owned site with the modular homes suggested by the mayor?

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

In a general sense we have State-owned land. The State is going through the Land Development Agency looking for county councils to find land in order to do things. We have State-owned land and we are not being asked to do anything with it.

On the rapid build, here is an opportunity for a pilot project to take innovative ways of building onto places where innovation is at the heart of it. Why would we not try different things other than a particular type? We should be doing the latest technologies, for example printing houses. We all grew up with less accommodation than is available now but I would love to see pilots of rapid-build innovative ways of delivery on State-owned land the technological universities have. We will be pushing through the national student accommodation strategy in a post-era where we have more capacity to be as flexible as possible in the delivery of student accommodation. Stackable comes and goes but it seems to be an ideal solution and an innovative solution to some of our problems.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome all our witnesses here today. I too am very impressed by the very positive messages the witnesses have put out about all their universities, despite the challenges they have. Those challenges are there across all sectors, particularly in relation to housing. Deputy Feighan spoke of Local Link and better transport. I visited Loughan House, Blacklion, County Cavan, with the Minister for justice a few weeks ago. I was delighted to learn from the governor that some of the inmates there were travelling to ATU in Sligo to do their courses. They go on a Local Link bus each morning that travels from Blacklion, or Enniskillen, to Sligo. There are five services per day. Those people would not be able to get access to those courses were not for the Local Link provision, which is very heartening to hear. It is also heartening to learn that those people are getting that opportunity in education. I presume it was also due to the initiative of the ATU in Sligo, so I commend them.

If the late President Paddy Hillery was around, he would be a very proud man today to think there are 106,000 students in what were formerly the regional technical colleges. It was his vision in 1963 as Aire Oideachais to establish and set out a strategy for the reach of technological colleges. We knew they went on to other forms as institutes of technology and now are part of the technological universities, which is a very welcome development. I remember listening as a student to Noel Mulcahy, the author of the Mulcahy report. He had close links, as our Limerick friends would know, with that particular region. He was a Member of the Oireachtas also. I remember him talking to us as students about what the vision at that time was. I believe it was Dr. Lillis who referred to it. It was that the colleges of education were to service the needs of all regions, local, urban and rural. All of the witnesses today cited the importance of the technological universities from the point of view of driving economic development, servicing the needs of the local regions, and ensuring that the people in those regions had easier and better access to higher level education. What is happening today is really putting in place the vision that went back to the early 1960s. I believe the Noel Mulcahy report was in the early 1970s but President Hillery's vision was from 1963 onwards, from my recollection. It is a great credit to all of the people who contributed to that continuum of developing education, developing it on a regional basis, and making it more accessible to people from families who traditionally did not go on to further or higher level education.

I was also struck by the point, I believe it was made by Dr. Lillis, about the needs of the local regions. I drive past the campus at Grangegorman. I am sure that Senator Tully also does so on her way here or going home. Some day I must treat myself to a visit to that campus. It is great to see that there. As a member of Government at the time, I remember Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach and Brian Cowen as Taoiseach who, despite the awful financial difficulties at the time, were adamant that the Grangegorman project would go ahead and that such an opportunity would not arise again if it was not taken to develop that particular campus as an education campus right in the heart of our city.

Great credit is due to all the people who brought that about in the meantime. We also see the welcome developments across all the different technological university campuses throughout the country. Do the technological universities have good collaboration with our colleges of further education? The witnesses mentioned families and the first person in a family to go to higher education. Over the years, I have attended the graduation at Cavan Institute and I have seen young people graduate from there who come from families I know well and where traditionally, there would not have been an interest in education. It is very heartening to see that progression. We need more of it. Of course, there is still a lacuna there that is not being filled. Many of the graduates from our colleges of further education go on to higher education, get their primary degrees and many of them go on to postgraduate level as well. I sincerely hope there is a good link between all the technological universities and the colleges of further education as well because we need that progression.

As my colleague, Senator Ryan, has said, the Minister, Deputy Lawless, has indicated to us that he is anxious to progress and deliver a level playing field with regard to borrowing for accommodation purposes akin to what the traditional universities have. I wish the witnesses good luck with their work.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

I thank the Deputy for sharing his reflections on the entire continuum. I want to pick up on his point at the end about further and higher education. I am sure everyone here has really great examples and it is probably best answered by example. The technological universities collaborate really well with one another, with the traditional universities and with the ETBs. As one example, MTU recently signed a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with UCC and with Cork ETB. That MOU is about skills provision for offshore renewables given the climate challenges and everything we are facing into. One of our campuses is the National Maritime College of Ireland. We really recognise that no one organisation can provide all of the skills that will be required in the whole skills pipeline as we transition to offshore renewable energy.

We recognise the synergistic effects that can be realised when we all collaborate together and bring different aspects of education. It is something of which we can all be proud. We were focused on the student accommodation, which is probably why those points did not come through in our statements but that is something we all do lots of.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

I will very briefly echo and endorse the comments about the Grangegorman development. It is a national asset at this point. At the time, it was visionary to continue it at the height of the doom and gloom back then. There is an open invite to anybody who would like to come up. It is a measure of the transformation up there. My office in Grangegorman, the Clock Tower, used to be a women's prison. You can see that measure of transformation, urban regeneration and how higher education can work with and for a community. I cannot take any credit for it. All the ideas came before me but it is absolutely phenomenal. Anybody is more than welcome and if the committee would like to host a meeting up there, we would be very happy to do that as well.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

To the Deputy's point on the ETBs, every single institution here has long term relationships with their ETBs and several ETBs in their regions. There is an absolute progression in a standardised way from finishing in the ETB and coming with a rite of passage and a right to come to the technological university. All of us have seen students come through. There is now the National Tertiary Office which deals with this issue. We have introduced new tertiary programmes run between the ETBs and the technological universities. These are bedding in and proving successful. One of the key highlights for the technological universities is the relationship we have with the ETBs and with SOLAS and others through the apprenticeship programme. There is very much an integrated tertiary system that allows a student to progress all the way from coming into the ETB to finishing with a PhD in the technological university. We have examples of that, which are heartening.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for being here and for their presentations. We heard from the student unions last week and they are all basically saying the same thing. They indicated that there was a shortage of student accommodation of somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 beds and that is predicted to rise to 68,000 by 2035 if this is not addressed. We know the effect it is having on students. They are commuting long distances. They are sofa surfing. They are dropping out or they are trying to work a job to pay their bills as well as study.

The Technological Universities Act 2018 foresaw a borrowing framework. In 2021, the Government announced a clear decision to allow it yet, nothing has happened in seven years and then four years. I hear what our colleagues from Fianna Fáil are saying and that the Minister intends to have this in place. Are the witnesses confident that will happen very soon? If it was to happen tomorrow, how long would it be before technological universities could borrow and get building? I recognise the universities have identified they have land and have carried out feasibility studies. I could nearly predict the universities have the work done to get off the ground straight away. As well as borrowing, I presume they anticipate there would be State investment as well. In the south east, where there is a very limited amount of accommodation available, how was that funded? Was that State investment if the institution was not able to borrow at the time?

Professor Veronica Campbell:

I will take that. We are very grateful in the South East Technological University for the 432 beds we have. The reason we have them is a transaction from 20 years ago, well before SETU was established. The company that developed those beds was consolidated into the legacy institute of technology at the time. There was a financial transaction and arrangement put in place at that time. When SETU was established in 2022, that fully owned subsidiary of the former institute of technology was incorporated into SETU.

On the question about how quickly could we move if the borrowing framework was approved tomorrow, we are very cognisant of good and proper governance and a viable business case. An updated financial analysis would need to be done. As is usual in these circumstances, once the funding mechanism and instrument is fully bottomed out and approved through our governance ladder, we would then go out to tender for a single point design team, there would be a tender process and a design process. That could move quite quickly because we talked about rapid build and modular build and it is quite straightforward from a design perspective. We have already had some indicative feasibility designs done as well that would help inform that. There is then the tender phase for the construction element as well. You could be looking at two years, maybe a little bit more or maybe a little bit less, from the approval of a business case. It is not an immediate solution but to have that direction of travel would be hugely beneficial for all of our technological universities.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is something I asked last week because some of the student unions have interaction with their European counterparts and there does not seem to be an accommodation problem in the North or it is certainly not like anything here. A lot of our students go to Glasgow and Scotland and there does not seem to be a huge problem with purpose built student accommodation in other jurisdictions. It is something of which the Government has taken its eye off and we need to get it back in place. Is Professor Campbell confident that something will be resolved this time?

Professor Veronica Campbell:

We have to stay confident in our roles; confident and optimistic.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is really urgent. We cannot let it be delayed any longer.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

It is our belief it has to happen, the inequity will be removed and the ambition can be realised because we are passionate about our students. Denying them opportunity cannot continue.

Whatever the capacity of the State to intervene, it must do so in some way or another in order to remove that inequity and to give our students an equal chance to progress their careers in a timely fashion. We are still optimistic despite what has happened. We remain optimistic.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is hard to understand why a difference exists in the ability to borrow between the traditional universities and the technological universities. I do not understand why there is such a difficulty.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

We cannot answer that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I received an email to tell me that my local institution, the ATU, has been rated the number 1 university in Ireland and number 3 in the world for marine pollution research. I congratulate Mr. McGarvey and everyone involved.

I share the generally positive commentary engaged in by all members about the impact the sector has had on education, society and life in the country. I wish the institutions, individually and collectively, continued success into the future. I hope they can continue to grow. I fully recognise that the accommodation issue is important and pertinent to that continued growth.

I will preface all my remarks with the recognition that, as we have all noted, more needs to be done by the Government by way of funding and governance, and allowing the institutions to go ahead and borrow the money that is needed. That is the best way to develop this type of accommodation. I have some specific questions about the issue in respect of which the witnesses might be able to provide an answer. The first relates to the current constraints that the witnesses have mentioned in the context of developing accommodation. SETU seems to have overcome those constraints at some point. It developed somewhere in the region of 400 units of accommodation for students. How did SETU do that at the time? I do not know far back I am going. I am not sure. Professor Campbell's remarks did not comment on when that occurred. It would be interesting to know how it was that SETU was able to do that. Mr. McGarvey has said that unlike traditional universities, the technological universities have been unable to develop their own managed student accommodation but clearly, SETU has been able to. How was that possible? How did it overcome the barriers we are discussing this morning?

Senator Tully touched on the following point. The representatives from SETU and the MTU indicated that they have concrete plans ready to go. Senator Dee Ryan elicited from the Shannon Technological University its plans. Do the Technological University Dublin and the ATU have specific plans ready to go if all the constraints disappear?

In terms of their current operations, do all the institutions have an accommodation office which new students, in particular, but also returning students can contact to see if help can be found to avail of accommodation in the locality? What level of outreach does the office conduct with residents in the wider communities in the cities in which they operate to try to encourage people who might have capacity within their homes to enter the scheme that allows people to earn €14,000 without any tax implications? Does the outreach extend to that? Are the colleges doing that?

My greatest concern from the general conversation has been touched on previously by many people. It is the theme that this difficulty is preventing people from accessing third level institutions. Dr. Lillis said that it has the impact that people may be dropping out as a result. Do we have data on that? If people are dropping out, do the institutions pursue them to find out why exactly they do so? At that point, what help can the institutions offer to try to prevent it from happening? It is disappointing to think that people would be dropping out, but I understand it could well be happening. It is disappointing to think that the accommodation crisis is preventing people from accessing third level institutions.

I was taken aback by one thing that Professor Cusack said because it is a sign of excessive governance at a national level. She said that permission from the HEA is required to seek planning permission. Could she talk me through the process as it goes from coming up with a concept and then moves to the HEA to ask for permission to apply for planning permission? That seems excessive.

The witnesses might have general comments about the current standard of student accommodation that has been developed. Perhaps that will not have been in their institutions but to facilitate neighbouring institutions or other examples of which they might be aware. There is a sense, although I am not sure I share it, that the standard is excessive and is intended to facilitate the use of that accommodation for a different market when students are not there. Do the witnesses have any opinion on that matter?

Is there potential for collaboration with other institutions? Deputy Smith mentioned the ETBs and the further education sector. In the locations the technological universities operate, there are also traditional universities. Surely there should be some capacity for collaboration between the third level institutions to develop accommodation together. That would make sense. Synergy and some economies of scale might be available in those circumstances.

Professor Cunnane made a point about the formation of the new body, the TUA. Some more information in that regard would be helpful. How will it operate? How will governance apply? Will it be State funded? Are we seeking State funding for it? It would be nice to get some information on that point.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has left 40 seconds for the witnesses to reply.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

The Deputy made a lot of points. I will pick up the one where he referred to the MTU. He asked if we have plans ready. We have done all the demand analysis. No one will be surprised to hear that there is huge demand. We have identified areas to build on our Kerry north campus and our Bishopstown campus. We have stalled at that point because we require a derogation of authority from the HEA to enter into planning permission and all the other steps that Professor Campbell set out. There are costs involved. We are hoping we can do this in a collaborative way, based on all the business cases we have submitted to the HEA and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We are all working together to ensure there will be economies of scale. It will be important as we move forward that there are economies of scale that can deliver the maximum number of viable student beds in the context of the cost of building. Those beds must be suitable and affordable for our students. We must think about viability and affordability and must deliver on both of those points. What was the other point?

Professor Veronica Campbell:

It was about the TUA.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

I can take the question on the TUA. All five technological universities plus the remaining two institutes of technology are now a part of a single sectoral representative body. We have brought everybody together. There have been many iterations of bodies to represent the technological sector over the years. Given the new technological universities, we wanted to show that it is a new start. We have brought everybody together. We have some funding from the Higher Education Authority for a short-term project that will run until next June. There is some State backing for that but only during the start-up phase. We will be self-funding thereafter.

We have advertised for a new CEO who will lead our advocacy side of things and present an integrated, single voice for the sector. I hope that the next time we are before the committee we will have a CEO here and the interface will be on a more regular basis. We are up and running. We have a project manager and a number of staff in place. The committee will hear a lot more about. We had a soft launch. In the near future, when we have a CEO, the committee can expect to hear more from the TUA.

Mr. Henry McGarvey:

I thank the Deputy for his comments. He asked a specific question about the plans of the ATU. We have identified land in Galway, Sligo and Letterkenny in response to the call in March 2024. Those lands are there. The important thing is that the strategy due to launch in October takes into account the fact that getting identified land through design and planning takes a fair degree of funding. A reasonable sized 400-, 500- or 600-bedroom accommodation space probably requires €2 million or more in upfront funding for design plans. I hope any strategy takes that into account to help us to move the process on.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have two brief questions.

Flexibility in the solutions needed for different towns, different universities and different needs was mentioned. Are there any examples of what that would look like? What would the preferred borrowing method be for the institutions? What are the witnesses' opinions on the nomination process? How will that work in fulfilling the plans they have thought up?

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

Flexibility is what we are looking at. The 53 projects we put in included working with the private sector, working with purpose-built student accommodation and local councils, working on refurbishment and a variety of activities. Some of those are suitable for smaller towns and some for larger towns. It is a variety. Ultimately, we will be looking for a wider borrowing capacity. We are now looking to constrain that to student accommodation because it is a very low-risk activity for the State to take on such accommodation. We are looking for the flexibility to do things in different ways around student accommodation.

The nominations agreement may be part of the new student accommodation. This is very interesting because it allows us to work with the private sector. A nominations agreement means we would have a long-term relationship but we would have to guarantee X percentage of beds for X number of years. That is a high-risk agenda. It is an option but, at the moment, a nominations agreement with the private sector puts all the risk onto the technological university. It would be very difficult for us to take on that risk. That €1.7 billion is underwritten by the State, as I said, for its establishment. The question is how we could take on this risk, even though we are a State asset, essentially. We would need some State guarantee in relation to the nominations agreement.

In terms of it actually working, we are working with two companies in Athlone and Limerick that have full planning permission for over 400 beds between them. They would like to do a nominations agreement with us but a nomination needs a contingent liability for which we need a borrowing capacity. Even if we get that, there is still the question of who carries the risk if things go wrong. That is where the State has to have a role as well.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

All I will add to that is we are open to exploring all questions. That is critical. That diversity of options on the table is something we would be very appreciative of.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just one other question. How many beds could be delivered out of the 53 projects the institutions thought of and collaboratively sent in?

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

For us, it is 2,000 beds or so.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

It is 1,500 for us.

Mr. Henry McGarvey:

It is 2,500 for us.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a substantial number of beds. It seems like gold. It is gold dust.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. It was really interesting to listen to each of them. Having met with student union representatives over the past number of months, accommodation is obviously the key issue. I will say thank you in particular to TU Dublin and to Dr. Lillis. My husband graduated with a PhD last October at a lovely ceremony. There were people from all over the place who were graduating from lots of different courses. The ceremony at Tallaght was lovely. I know that people had a fantastic day and, apparently, many such days before and after he graduated.

My concern is when only 0.4% are accommodated on campuses that campus life is really missed out. It is also a choice in what course a student can decide to take. I have three questions. The witnesses talked about how, when accommodation is built, there were thoughts about dual-use accommodation for enterprise, but I was not sure exactly what that was. The second thing is whether it would be possible for students to stay in their accommodation for 12 months of the year? The reason I ask that is when students come from elsewhere, around the country or abroad, and stay in that accommodation, whenever it is built, they will have jobs and social lives around the campus. I have heard very clearly from the witnesses that they want that campus life, which is so important to students. The learning is very important but we also like having fun - we are humans. Will that be facilitated? My last question is: how are you at the moment? It is such a struggle to keep students in third level because of the cost, the accommodation and the commuting time. How are the institutions able to support them to stay there to enhance campus life and learning, when they have such long days? They may have to have a job, commute and things like that.

Professor Veronica Campbell:

The 12-month accommodation is important for many cohorts. In particular, research and PhD students, which the Deputy alluded to, are all year round so it is important for that. Over the summer months, we may have students, researchers, PhD students or postdoctoral researchers coming from university partners around the world. Having activity there in the summer months is important. It might not be necessary for the full accommodation block but there will certainly be a proportion of requirement there.

Students who are commuting, working and missing out on university life within our technological university is a critical issue for us. We have mechanisms and activities around student sports and societies. We encourage our students to learn outside of the classroom, for example, thinking about volunteering. Many of our students are actively engaged on that. It is very hard for students who are commuting long distances, and maybe working part time as well, to engage fully in that environment. If we can alleviate the accommodation pressures and have that life on campus for them, that may really help with their broader development.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

I mentioned dual use in our opening statement. It would be an innovative use, and I have done it myself, if students were to commute to Dublin, stay two nights a week and go back home. Maybe we could be flexible in students having campus accommodation for two nights a week and then it would be open. It would be almost a hostel-hotel type approach. That is the innovative thinking we could use. It is about making sure it is used off-peak. Not every student will stay around for the summer. They will not all want the 12 months. It is about innovative use as well as maybe innovative ways of building it.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do any members have one final question?

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Looking ahead and hoping for a future where the institutions will be given the capacity to borrow, and that being a portion of the solution to solving the problem of student housing, the Minister is also minded that the private sector has a significant role to play in this as well. Other measures are being considered that will hopefully stimulate the private sector to bring forward as much student accommodation as possible. Looking forward to that future where institutions are enabled to have a more direct role, what are the witnesses' thoughts on the capacity within their organisations to manage these lengthy and significant projects? What is the need within each of their organisations? How can we support them there?

Professor Veronica Campbell:

We have invested in capacity building in our capital projects team. I am very pleased with how that is developing. We have just delivered a 6,000 sq. m building on one of our campuses on time and within budget. It was completely run from the get-go through the university system. We are all developing our capacity and recruiting the appropriate staff. These are complicated high-risk projects that need to be right in terms of timelines for delivery, and delivered within budget and to high quality. We are very cognisant of that and are building our capacity accordingly.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

The Senator may be aware of an example like Coonagh, an old shopping centre on the edge of Limerick we managed to purchase through NAMA which is now a centre of excellence for engineering, housing over 800 students. That was a complex project that was delivered on time, after we got it through planning. It was eventually delivered on time and on budget. We have a lot of examples across the sector of managing complex building projects. Over the years we have also build up a project management capacity within the sector. Various funds we have received from the Department through the HEA in relation to things like the technological sector advancement fund and a new technological enhancement fund have allowed us to put in place the necessary project management skills to build on what we already have, so we have no fears about our capacity to deal with building purpose-built student accommodation.

Dr. Deirdre Lillis:

To add to that, in addition to our on campus capacity we have worked with Grangegorman Development Agency for that last 20 years at this stage. Those synergistic partnerships are possible as well.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Lillis. Deputy McGettigan wanted to put a final question.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the student accommodation and dual use, having visited other universities that have accommodation one thing they state clearly is they rent out those units and the money that brings in gets passed on to students again, which means accommodation is cheaper for them. That is what these universities use it for. In the new strategy, where it could be looking like shared accommodation, I am not sure we would be able to do that with it or that it would be viable for that kind of thing. Do the officials have concerns about that? Students' unions I spoke to last week said they had concerns about it.

Professor Maggie Cusack:

The important point is thinking about accommodation that is in the private sector or is within our control. When it is within our control we have that flexibility to think about what is the best opportunity for our students. As we have heard, there may be some who would want a year-round lease and I am sure it would not be beyond any of us to manage those different approaches. It is really important to think about that accommodation for the entire year, whether some of it is allocated to our students or some used for other purposes like conferences and travel. That is a source of income that ultimately goes to the university to be used, perhaps, to support students either with accommodation costs or simply via student supports through an access service, etc. It is a really important distinction and something we have to keep our eye on in terms of affordability as well, whether it is in our gift or in the private sector.

Professor Vincent Cunnane:

It is a hugely important point. It is about the ability to have affordable accommodation. What seems to be developing is that students who need help in that space would get it through SUSI. With that separation we were talking about, the viability of the accommodation and the individual student is probably a very positive step. As Senator Ryan pointed out, there will be a private sector issue here but if we are bringing the private sector onto State-owned land to build purpose-built student accommodation, we need to ensure we have some control of the operation of that, as well as the long-term capacity to take on that asset after 25 years or so, as opposed to a continual extraction of profits. For our sector, and I am sure for everybody, that would questionable, so we have to be careful. There are mechanisms we can put in place - and other jurisdictions have been doing this for a long time - as to how in offering that State-owned land to the private sector to build on that we ensure we have some control over the operational aspect of things. That allows our ethos to pervade that and ultimately the State can make an injection and give over that land, as ultimately the asset will revert to the State. It is therefore an investment and not a cost. That is my last word.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Professor Cunnane very much. It is very clear from this meeting there is an urgent need. From the previous meetings and our engagement with constituents and family we know there is an urgent need to increase the supply of student accommodation and supports around all that. It is clear from all the witnesses there is a need for the Government to fulfil those programme for Government commitments. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, has worked with the witnesses, has heard from them and has committed to bringing forth those solutions in the coming weeks. We all support him in that and have hope for the very ambitious plans the witnesses clearly have and the capacity they have built in to their institutions to be able to deliver for their students. We have had a really worthwhile, informative and productive meeting. On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for their time. I thank committee members for their engagement. I wish the witnesses the very best of luck. I hope we will have success to hear about from them all in the coming weeks and to see their plans develop in future.

We will suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to depart before moving into private session to deal with housekeeping matters.