Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 24 September 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Safeguarding Policies and Procedures within the Football Association of Ireland: Discussion
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Today's meeting has been convened with officials from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, with representatives of Sport Ireland and the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, to discuss matters relating to safeguarding policies and procedures within the FAI.
I welcome the following witnesses: Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary for sport, and Mr. Ciarán Shanley, principal officer for sports capital, Department of Culture, Communications and Sport; Dr. Una May, CEO; and Ms Helen McHugh, director of ethics and integrity at sport, Sport Ireland; and Mr. David Courell, chief executive officer; Mr. Tony Keohane, chair; Mr. Paul Cooke, president; Ms Aoife Rafferty, people and culture director; and Ms Kirsten Pakes, child welfare and safeguarding officer, FAI. I also take this opportunity to welcome all the members of the media. I think it is the largest number of media we have ever had at a committee meeting in here.
I wish to make a few comments. I want to outline as Chair of this committee a deep concern at the manner in which the FAI, an organisation in receipt of significant State funding, has engaged with this committee to date.
I found it pretty astounding and unprecedented that any Oireachtas committee's intentions, not solely those of this committee, were being questioned regarding the manner in which we sought this meeting. I wish to put that on public record. I have been a Member of the Oireachtas for the guts of 20 years and I have never seen that before. These are very serious issues. The reasons we are here, as a sports committee elected by the taxpayers and citizens of Ireland, is because we have very serious questions to ask. We did so in a legitimate way as the representatives of the people.
My committee colleagues and I sought to schedule this meeting for 9 July 2025 to enable the committee to consider matters relating to safeguarding policies and their implementation by the FAI following the extraordinary documentary, “RTÉ Investigates: Girls in Green”, by the Sunday Independentand RTÉ, which examined allegations of inappropriate conduct in the 1990s towards female players. I compliment those who made it. Those journalists certainly did the State some service. The committee has made it quite clear that it does not propose to examine the specifics of any individual case under investigation, but rather to gain an understanding as to how the association complies with Sport Ireland’s robust safeguarding criteria. Following engagement with the FAI around the details of the meeting proposed by the committee, I accepted the FAI’s deferral request and sought to schedule the hearing for today, 24 September 2025. May I point out that the agenda for today’s meeting remains as first advised? It has not changed at all. It is troubling that the FAI sought to cancel the engagement when additional attendees were requested by members of this committee. They were not requested by me personally.
It is also concerning the manner in which there was a referral, through a piece of correspondence, from An Garda Síochána to this committee. I have never seen anything like this before relating to a committee. It is from an assistant principal officer, an unattested garda, and it basically states that there is a preference, or it would be preferable, that issues under investigation be concluded before any committee meetings take place. There is a committee on justice affairs, the Committee of Public Accounts and many other committees here that deal with many live issues in the public interest. If we had to operate by that rule of thumb, no committees would sit. We will be writing to the Garda Commissioner to ask him to explain this intervention, what was meant by it, as well as his and the organisation’s awareness of it.
It is also concerning that the FAI, while it reconsidered its position regarding today’s meeting, has not included the persons requested in its delegation before the committee today. This is very unusual. Although the FAI is a private organisation that is totally dependent on the taxpayers of Ireland, if a committee of the Oireachtas requests certain individuals to attend, they generally attend. It is a matter for the organisation, though. It is very regrettable - the committee has considered this - that those people have not been included today. I have no doubt there will be questions as to why that is the case.
The committee enters into today’s engagement in good faith. It is our expectation that there will be constant engagement today. I have no doubt that, as a result of this meeting, there may be further hearings scheduled with all parties here into the future, almost certainly before the year is out. That is my view as Cathaoirleach and it is the view of many people on this committee.
For transparency, the chairperson of the FAI contacted me during the week looking for a private conversation on this issue. I outlined to him that, while we could have a conversation, I obviously would be making it public, which I have since done. I was also contacted the night before last by Mr. Robert Watt, a director of the FAI, who wanted to talk to me, but I was unavailable. I contacted him the following day but there was no conversation. I wish to make contacts I have had with senior people in the FAI in the recent past regarding this issue abundantly clear. Furthermore, for transparency, for members who so wish, I propose they outline any communications they have had with any director or member of senior management of the FAI in connection with this meeting when they are making their contributions. I thank members and witnesses.
The format of today’s meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which will be limited to five minutes. If they could take less time, that would be welcome. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As witnesses are aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its webpage.
Before we move to today’s discussions, I wish to clarify some limitations relating to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references they may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is absolutely imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The committee has received correspondence from individuals in advance of this engagement regarding some of the items that have been flagged for discussion. I remind members that the names of individuals, or any personal information relating to them, should not be discussed publicly. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The committee is aware there is a Garda investigation in relation to the conduct of certain persons who were involved in football training. It is possible that prosecutions may be brought arising out of these investigations. It is vitally important that members and witnesses do not make any statements that could prejudice any potential trial or be used to try to argue that a fair trial is not possible.
I now invite Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department.
Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an chuiridh páirt a ghlacadh sa bplé tábhachtach seo um tráthnóna. At the outset, as the Cathaoirleach has said, the Department is very aware that certain matters relating to safeguarding in football are the subject of an active investigation by An Garda Síochána. We will be very mindful of that during out discussions today.
The allegations made by women involved in football in the 1990s were truly shocking and the bravery of those who came forward to tell their stories is commendable. It is vital that allegations of this nature be taken seriously and dealt with in the appropriate manner. Last year’s reporting of this story, both in print and on television, played an important role in bringing these stories to light. Cases such as these serve as a reminder of the need to be ever vigilant and of the importance of safeguarding policies and procedures in our efforts to create, protect and promote a culture that allows people to speak out about anything that makes them uncomfortable in all sports. It is vital that allegations of this nature be taken seriously by any national governing body of sport, NGB, and that an athlete-centred approach is taken in response.
In August 2023, Sport Ireland launched a new national code of conduct template for sporting organisations, which sets out a set of guidelines and principles that promote the behaviour and conduct expected from our athletes, coaches, supporters, officials, club members, and parents or guardians. All NGBs were asked to use the national template code of conduct as an opportunity to review their existing policies and procedures for handling code breaches to ensure that we have a safe and respectful environment for all involved in Irish sport.
The Government’s national sports policy, which runs from 2018 to 2027 and is overseen by the Department, strives to ensure that all our children have safe, enjoyable and positive sporting experiences and that they develop the physical literacy that will underpin their participation in sport and physical activity throughout their lives.
The creation of a culture of safety that promotes the welfare of children and young people engaged in sporting activities must be at the core of all NGBs’ operations and Sport Ireland’s Safeguarding Guidance for Children and Young People in Sport is a core document in this regard.
Sport Ireland has an extensive suite of guidelines and codes of practice for the protection of children in sport, consistent with child protection guidance and legislation. Last year, Sport Ireland wrote to all NGBs to remind them of their responsibilities and that their policies and procedures regarding player welfare must be up to date and fit for purpose. This guidance includes set criteria for safeguarding compliance. This is a compulsory requirement for NGBs and is a critical element for NGB funding. These criteria are reviewed twice annually. In this regard, Sport Ireland works with NGBs to ensure that appropriate policies are put in place to take a proactive approach to safeguarding by identifying and mitigating risks to player welfare. It also works with NGBs to ensure mechanisms are in place to appropriately react to and handle complaints or issues when they arise.
It is important to note however that the FAI, like all NGBs, is an independent autonomous organisation, and as such, is responsible for its own governance including safeguarding procedures and disciplinary and complaints processes. More widely, great strides have been made in increasing female participation in Irish sport in recent years and that now stands at 47%, its highest level ever. The continued investment by the Department in Sport Ireland’s women in sport programme reaching €4 million annually this year, funds projects and initiatives across a wide range of sports, supporting the Government’s vision whereby women have an equal opportunity to achieve their full potential in sport. These measures, while positive, must of course be supported by a robust safeguarding framework for all who participate in sport. It is imperative that we demonstrate there is simply no place for abuse of any kind in sport and there should be zero tolerance for any actions that endanger welfare.
In this regard, it is important that any potential instances of misbehaviour, including those recently reported in the media, are treated with the utmost seriousness and sensitivity. I assure the committee that the Department will continue to work with Sport Ireland and other key stakeholders across sport, including the FAI, to build on the support measures already in place, to ensure that there are clear ways of reporting inappropriate behaviours and that the necessary support is provided to those affected. The Department is committed to a "sport for all" approach, aimed at ensuring everyone has the opportunity to partake equally in sport and physical activity, regardless of gender, age, socioeconomic status, disability or membership of minority groups such as the LGBTQI+ community, the Traveller community or other ethnic minorities. Work will continue to promote and foster fair play, respect, ethics, integrity and safety not only in football but throughout the entire sports ecosystem.
Wider and ongoing governance reform within the FAI, as set out in the current memorandum of understanding with them is a key priority for the Ministers and the Department. The cascading of good governance throughout its leagues and affiliates as per MOU condition No. 14 is particularly important.
Dr. Úna May:
On behalf of Sport Ireland, I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear today to discuss the important issue of safeguarding in Irish sport. We appreciate the committee's continued attention to the safety and welfare of those participating in sport. Sport Ireland is the non-regulatory statutory authority with responsibility for the development of sport in Ireland. Under the Sport Ireland Act 2015, we are tasked with developing and disseminating guidelines and codes of practice promoting best practice for the protection of children in sport. This responsibility is a central pillar of how we work with the sector, including the Football Association of Ireland and over 60 other funded sporting national governing bodies.
Sport should be a positive and enriching experience for everyone involved, and conducted in a safe supportive environment. Everyone, regardless of age, ability or background should be able to participate in sport free from harm, intimidation or abuse. I acknowledge the people who come forward to share their lived experiences and commend them on their bravery. Safeguarding is not a one-time obligation. It is a dynamic, ongoing commitment. To this end, Sport Ireland has developed comprehensive safeguarding guidance, templates and resources. These are disseminated across the sport sector and supported through a structured programme of education, support and compliance. This includes the national delivery of Sport Ireland child safeguarding workshops, refresher training, tutor development and our widely used Safe Sport app, which provides on-the-go information to coaches, parents, children and volunteers.
Sport Ireland requires organisations to declare their compliance with the Children First Act 2015 and the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Acts 2012 to 2016 twice a year. These requirements are embedded in our funding conditions, with non-compliance resulting in suspension or withdrawal of financial support. While we do not have statutory investigative powers, our role is one of guidance and support. We work collaboratively with NGBs to ensure that systems are in place to prevent harm, manage risk and respond to child safety concerns.
In 2024, close to 40,000 participants engaged in over 3,000 safeguarding workshops delivered by local sports partnerships, LSPs, and national governing bodies, while an additional 11,174 individuals completed the online safeguarding 1 refresher course. Sport Ireland works collaboratively with relevant state agencies. We have regular engagement with Tusla to ensure that NGBs have up-to-date information regarding their legal obligations under the Children First Act 2015. Tusla's children first information and advice officers are involved in the delivery of training to Sport Ireland's safeguarding tutors. We also work closely with the Garda National Vetting Bureau to ensure that the sport sector is aware of its obligations under the national vetting bureau Acts. In 2024, we wrote to all 65 funded NGBs to reinforce their obligations and ensure their policies are up to date. Historically, the focus has been on the safeguarding of children as outlined in the Sport Ireland Act 2015. However, we recognise that safety for all people in sport is an important area. Hence, Safe Sport International has begun a needs analysis in the area of safe sport for adults, a growing area of focus globally. The outputs of the analysis will inform the approach to provision in this area by Sport Ireland, in line with our role as a development agency.
The FAI, like all funded NGBs, is an independent autonomous body. The FAI is recognised internationally by FIFA and UEFA as the national association for the game of football having ultimate responsibility for the governance, development and promotion of the game of football in Ireland. The FAI has declared compliance with all safeguarding legislation and has taken steps, such as engaging the Raiseaconcern service, to enable individuals to come forward in a safe and independent way. Sport Ireland acknowledges initiatives that NGBs adopt which promote transparency and accountability. Sport Ireland's oversight of the FAI is informed and structured around the Government's memorandum of understanding with the FAI. Members of the committee will be aware that the FAI remains on a journey of governance reform. Late last year, the Government agreed a new MOU with the FAI, reflecting progress made under the previous MOU in 2020. The agreement sets out commitments to ensure further progress and reform in key priority areas. The Government tasked Sport Ireland with monitoring the FAI's delivery of these commitments up to 2027.
Safeguarding is central to the integrity of sport. It underpins trust, participation and performance. We remain committed to strengthening this area, working with all partners, and ensuring that Irish sport continues to evolve as a safe, inclusive, and respectful environment for everyone. I am joined by my colleague Ms McHugh, our director of integrity and ethics. We look forward to the committee's questions.
Mr. David Courell:
On behalf of the FAI, I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss safeguarding in Irish football, a key priority for our association. I am here with the president, Mr. Paul Cooke; the chair, Mr. Tony Keohane; our people and culture director, Ms Aoife Rafferty and Ms Kirsten Pakes, our child welfare and safeguarding manager. I appreciate the committee has also requested the presence of Eileen Gleeson and Gareth Maher. Neither of these individuals has a direct role in safeguarding and the FAI is satisfied that the five representatives here are appropriate witnesses to address the committee on matters of safeguarding policy, governance and oversight and that they can represent the association in full.
Safeguarding is the set of policies and practices that protect children and vulnerable people and aims to ensure the 225,000 registered players and 100,000 volunteers in Irish football are safe from any form of abuse, harm or neglect. It requires constant vigilance and shared responsibility across Irish sport including coaches, volunteers, clubs and all NGBs. The FAI is committed to making football safe, inclusive and enjoyable for all. I will share a few key facts about the FAI’s work in this area. The FAI was the first sporting organisation to employ a full-time dedicated safeguarding lead, with a strong team of four now in place. The child welfare and safeguarding committee, established in 2013, oversees policies and decisions in this area. Our FAI Connect football management system links safeguarding prerequisites to coach education and our Club Mark accreditation and League of Ireland licensing require evidence of safeguarding compliance. Last year, the FAI processed 15,000 Garda vetting applications and delivered Sport Ireland safeguarding training to over 6,000 participants. We introduced Raiseaconcern, an independent, confidential service for reporting abuse or inappropriate behaviour. We have recently commissioned a progressive review of our approach to adult safeguarding.
These steps demonstrate how safeguarding is truly embedded into football structures.
The committee will be aware from our recent correspondence that on foot of guidance from An Garda Síochána, and separate legal advice, we have been unable to share certain materials sought and that we are obliged to avoid discussing the specifics of any case. Even discussing correspondence, without naming individuals, can impact a case, especially when the same correspondence has been detailed in media, which has named the individuals involved and has pinpointed it as relating to them.
I would also like to acknowledge the uncertainty over our appearance here today and would like to reassure the committee that no disrespect was intended. It was borne out of a genuine concern that the association has had regarding some of the contradictory messaging we have received about the scope of this hearing. I believe that nobody here today would want to undermine these investigations and the rights of the individuals involved so we hope to proceed today with care and to remain within the stated scope of the agenda.
When concerns were raised following the "Girls in Green" documentary last year, we noted that the robust policies and reporting structures that we now have in place were not in place to protect the individuals affected in that documentary back in the 1990s. The courage of the individuals involved who came forward underscores why this work matters. The FAI also made three clear statements: Nobody should ever feel unsafe in Irish football; nobody should have felt unsafe in the past; and nobody should feel unheard. We stand over those statements here today. Safeguarding is about so much more than process and procedures. It is about protecting people, listening and acting. For example, following historical allegations that came to us, actions undertaken by the association have included: setting up a working group; engaging independent third party specialists; meeting the individuals impacted; establishing support frameworks; and taking precautionary measures to ensure the alleged individuals were not currently involved in Irish football. We also activated a campaign to highlight awareness of unacceptable behaviour and where to report it, and safeguarding has been elevated to be the priority agenda item at each of our board meetings.
We are fully committed to supporting and contributing to any work that advances safeguarding. With that in mind, we urge the committee to review the current Garda vetting process to enable a more efficient, joined-up approach for volunteers across multiple sports. We would be glad to collaborate closely with Sport Ireland to support the committee should they choose to progress this measure.
I will close by saying that safeguarding is a continuous effort. Looking forward, the board and executive are fully committed to ensuring that safeguarding standards continue to be elevated across Irish football. Through robust policies, independent reporting channels, and ongoing collaboration with Sport Ireland and the Government, we are determined to make football in Ireland as safe as it possibly can be today and every day.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Courell. We will proceed with questions and answers. Members will have approximately seven minutes speaking time for both questions and answers. We have a rota. There will be a second round where I propose we will have three minutes. After the first round of members, if there are non-members present, they will be given two minutes, which is one question and an answer. The first person on my list Senator Ní Chuilinn.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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For transparency, I was contacted by one member of the FAI, Eileen Gleeson. At which point I suggested that Ms Gleeson comes in and speaks publicly to the committee. That is the only person I have been in contact with and we are all disappointed that she is not here.
I want to reference the opening statement in terms of the "Girls in Green" documentary. Everybody who has spoken so far has mentioned it. I welcome the FAI's willingness to discuss "safeguarding policy, governance and oversight", which is basically all we are here to do.
My first question is for Ms Kirsten Pakes and I ask her to cast her mind back to May 2023. Did she know about the allegations that were later exposed in the documentary that everybody has mentioned?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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This is all about safeguarding measures and procedures. If there was an awareness of something that had happened historically to women in football, I am assuming that when that came to light safeguarding procedures would have been initiated.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask Ms Pakes to please move closer to the microphone as people cannot hear her.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I think Ms Pakes is not going to answer. I will just move on because I only have seven minutes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To clarify, I ask Ms Pakes to repeat what she said because I do not think people heard what she said the second time.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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She said it was not in the remit.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I encourage Ms Pakes to answer the question.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is a bad start.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is nothing within-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Pakes know in May 2023?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Please allow the witness to answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will give back some time to Senator Ní Chuilinn but, first, I want to set some ground rules. If somebody asks a question, unless there is some very specific reason relating to an individual or it has been outlined and discussed in great detail in here now by me and by others, then I would suggest, and I would hope, that Ms Pakes will answer the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Senator might wish to rephrase her question in a way in which it could be answered.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Pakes know in May 2023 about the allegations that later came to light in the documentary?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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On 5 May 2023, Ms Rafferty responded to her then PR director, when he drafted a press release, saying, "Perfect, ... That ... keeps us safe for now." What does that mean?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Rafferty initiate a PR response to something that was going to break before she initiated a safeguarding response? Ms Kirsten Pakes has said she did not know so Ms Rafferty did not tell her safeguarding manager.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Is this the answer we are going to get to everything?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We need to pause for a minute. Within reason, these are not really answers. I respect what was said in the opening statement. I do not necessarily agree with it but it is the FAI's prerogative to say it. Committees have asked these questions about correspondence that they have had, across tens of thousands of issues, many times before. I suggest that witnesses reconsider their answers.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is actually the Senator's-----
Mr. Tony Keohane:
-----we were very clear in coming in here that we would not be answering any questions on the specifics. We made that clear in various correspondence over the weekend and before we reversed our position in looking for a deferral on coming in here. So we, respectfully, request that we stick to that line, a Chathaoirligh.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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However, no specifics. No people have been named. No specifics relating to any individual case or Garda file or anything like that has been referenced by me.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry, this is not a to and fro. In that scenario, it is extraordinary that, while maybe not in the level of detail for the reasons Mr. Keohane have outlined, a question on whether somebody who has a position in an organisation that is funded by the taxpayer was aware of issues or not is something that cannot be answered. I ask the Senator to continue.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The day after the documentary aired, Ms Rafferty did a media briefing with Mr. Courell and she said, "We ask anyone to help us create a safe environment." That was on 8 July 2024. Does that include coaches and managers asking everybody in the game to help the FAI "create a safe environment"? Does that extend to coaches and managers?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Rafferty ever receive any complaints of safeguarding from any coach in the year before she made that statement?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did anyone tell Ms Rafferty about the safeguarding issues? Did anyone tell her about the allegations that later broke? Previously, she said that she wanted help from the FAI's managers and coaches.
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
I will talk about what we are trying to create from our public statement on 7 July. It was our intention to try and create a safe environment - an environment where people had the opportunity to come forward.
If I think about the individuals involved in that case, which was at the forefront of all our minds today when we were coming here, I want to encourage people that there is a safe place to raise their concerns and that we can support them in whatever manner or send them down the appropriate avenue if they want to move forward to have those concerns.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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When was the Raiseaconcern service initiated?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It was a month before the documentary, was it?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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What triggered the service being initiated?
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
When we were formally approached by PFA Ireland at the end of January 2024, we went about understanding what was the best way to engage in the context of providing support to those who were coming forward. It was also important for us to understand how people can raise their concerns in a confidential space. A board oversight committee was created. Through discussions with that committee, it was determined that we should have a confidential space for individuals to raise their concerns. It is important that we create an environment of safety first whereby people have the ability to raise confidential information at any time.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did the FAI get any complaints or were any concerns raised previously by international managers about international teams not being safe?
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
I am not sure whether the Senator is referring to the communication we are talking about. However, it is important to understand that when someone comes forward and asks us to hear what they have to say, it is sometimes on an informal basis. We provide support as required. Ms Pakes and her team in the child welfare and safeguarding department provide a safe space and a space where people can come forward. On the back of the PFAI coming forward with specific concerns from the girls in green, it was determined that we needed to ensure we created additional avenues for people to come forward.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I think I am out of time, so I will recap.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will give the Senator another 45 seconds.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. Ms Pakes did not know in May 2023 about what came out in the documentary. Would Ms Rafferty put on record whether she knew in May 2023?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Ms Rafferty does not want to put on record where she stands on that.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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We are here to talk about safeguarding policy, governance and oversight. I have one question for Dr. May about trust. She mentioned trust in her opening statement. Does she trust the FAI?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I cannot get any answers about safeguarding policies and when or whether they were instigated, so I am wondering about trust.
Dr. Úna May:
We have a close working relationship. We have a network of safeguarding officers and children's officers in all the national governing bodies. We have a close informal and formal relationship with them. We carry out workshops, conferences and campaigns. We work closely with them and Ms Pakes is part of that network.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Could Dr. May answer the question directly? I apologise, but I have to be fair when it comes to time.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I might start by saying something unexpected. I compliment some of the people in the room on the work they have done with the FAI in recent years. I genuinely mean that. There are some people here who I have great time for as I do for the work they have done in recent years. However, I will follow the line of questioning of Senator Ní Chuillin. I will start by reading an extract of a press statement that was referenced earlier.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To clarify, the Deputy means by the FAI.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was by the FAI on the day after the "RTÉ Investigates" programme was aired.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sure there is no issue with answering questions regarding a statement the FAI made.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At the press conference, Ms Rafferty stated:
It is really important to understand policies and procedures and safeguarding measures are in place and have been in place for a long time. That is not enough. It is about our behaviours across all of our football community and why we would ask everyone to help us to create a really safe environment for those who play or are in administration in football. It is essential. It cannot be just a document. It cannot be just a policy. We would ask all of you to call it out, tell us, report it and we will be committed and reassure everyone we will do everything to investigate it.
Bearing in mind the emails referenced by Senator Ní Chuilinn, does Ms Rafferty think the FAI did that?
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
In my role as people and culture director, I created an environment where people had the opportunity to come forward and share their concerns in a safe, confidential manner. I lead with integrity. In the interactions I have had with individuals over the past three years in my role, I believe I created that.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt. I am not doubting Ms Rafferty's integrity at all. We are all human. People make mistakes all the time. I am not saying anyone here made a mistake. It might come out in the fullness of time that they did, but I am asking specifically in reference to the email where Ms Rafferty said that the press statement was prepared and ready for publication. It was clear to the people seated behind me. It was published in a number of newspapers, as is referenced in the opening statement. It is quite clear the FAI had knowledge of this in early 2023.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I respect that. I will maximise my time.
I will move on to Mr. Courell. I genuinely meant my opening comments, and he is the specific person I was referring to, about the improvements in football. On the emails in 2023, the thread presented to some of us shows that Mr. Courell was copied in on the email of 5 May. Is he willing to comment on that email?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will take the email out of it. Did Mr. Courell discuss anything with the then chief executive about the content of the email or with anyone else on the senior management team?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Maybe the Deputy could rephrase the question, withdraw the reference to the email and ask it another way.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure how more blatantly I can ask. The last time something like this happened, I was not here. A former chief executive came here and did the same thing. It did not end well for that individual. In the context of what we have heard so far, we are in familiar territory. Is the Mr. Courell willing to disclose any communication he had with anyone in senior management at any stage about what was clearly written about in May 2023 and in the immediate aftermath of the programme?
Mr. David Courell:
Genuinely, I reassure the committee that our conscience is clear on this matter. However, we want to make sure it remains clear and we are not willing to compromise an ongoing investigation. Having dealt and engaged with the individuals at the centre of this, we need to remember these are real people who are seeking justice, and we are not willing to compromise that.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, I have three young children and there are other people here who have children. If I was a parent involved in any set-up about any individual - I am not referencing a specific individual - and if I felt that people in senior management in the FAI had let me down as a parent, by not implementing proper safeguarding procedures, I would be offended and upset.
I will move to Ms Pakes because she is the only person who has answered a question so far. When did she become aware of the safeguarding complaint she acknowledged?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When did Ms Pakes become aware of the safeguarding complaint? Initially, there was this email thread in 2023. Ms Pakes acknowledged that she became aware of it at a later date. When did she become aware of it?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore Ms Pakes is saying it was after the "Prime Time" programme. That is when she became aware.
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
No. I am not saying that at all. I want to be able to answer the Deputy's questions but I am really conscious that I would not disclose any steps I take in any case with anybody that is not party to those proceedings. I understand it is frustrating but unless we are in an independent review and I am disclosing my steps-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask Ms Pakes a general question, in that case? That might be more appropriate. In the event of a rumour or allegation of this description, typically - taking out the programme and every bit of it-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We are talking about generic.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is generic, okay? In the event of an allegation of that nature, would it be typical for stand-down protocol to be initiated fairly promptly? Obviously there is a window here. Ms Pakes may not be able to acknowledge the emails and all that but there is a nine or ten month window here where there was inaction.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so I will rephrase it. If there is an allegation of a sexual nature, is immediate action taken? Is there a process? Does the process typically take a few weeks or months? What happens?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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This is a pretty standard question. In your role, Ms Pakes, if an allegation of that standard is made-----
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
If an allegation of a sexual nature is made, first we have to establish whether it involves a child. If it involves a child, we have statutory reporting procedures we need to take. We also have, as the Deputy said, our stand-down order, a precautionary measure, that we need to put in place if there are children at risk. If it involves an allegation of something sexual with an adult, we have to understand there is self-determination in this factor where an individual is able to come forward and report the matter. There is a differentiation between a child and an adult.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask one final question of Mr. Cooke, Chairman? He is the president of the board. When did the board first become aware of this?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry now, but this is a bit extraordinary. It is a pretty generic question. As a board, Mr. Cooke, you are not willing to reveal-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We requested the minutes from boards. Even if they were redacted for matters concerning this, they could have been redacted, and that information has not been furnished here either today.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is extraordinary, Mr. Cooke, that you sit here as president of the FAI, and bookman - I understand all of that - and have been asked the question when the board was aware of these issues in any shape or form and you are refusing to answer. We are not talking in relation to any specifics or any people. It is a pretty generic question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry, when the PFA-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So you were aware of that from the time the complaint was made rather than when the documentary was made.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Around what date was that?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for attending here. I will raise another topic that may assist with answering. Is Mr. Courell aware of a project called operation magenta?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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When was that established?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Keohane happy that the independent review he ordered into operation magenta interviewed all those central to the issue before the board was told in the autumn of 2024 there was nothing to see here?
Mr. Tony Keohane:
Project magenta was set up at the beginning of February 2024. It was a subcommittee of the board which also involved senior executives of the organisation. We also brought on board some outside support to ensure we handled the very sensitive matters absolutely carefully and properly. I cannot comment on the investigation to which the Senator referred because it referred to earlier matters but I am really satisfied that the operation of what the Senator called project magenta was handled professionally, properly and carefully to ensure we did the best job we could possibly do under difficult circumstances, bearing in mind that we were dealing with things then which we did not know the full extent of. We wanted to make sure that we listened carefully to the people who were making the complaints, the women who were making the complaints, and that we ensured they got justice or that justice would be delivered in the end for them.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I will return to Mr. Courell. He will agree that he addressed a media conference outside the FAI headquarters after the allegations were made in various documentaries, as well as being documented in the Sunday Independent and RTÉ. Did he tell that press briefing that he first became aware of those serious allegations in early 2024?
Mr. David Courell:
I think my exact wording was that these matters first came to our attention in early 2024. That was in reference to the complaints that came forward. To clarify any ambiguity around that, the PFA of Ireland, which is the representative body for professional players in Ireland, approached the association in January 2024 with direct concerns that were originating from the group of women at the centre of this. We then engaged with them. They facilitated a sit-down for us to sit with the group of women, and with those direct complaints, the ability was there for us to act.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Therefore Mr. Courell had no prior knowledge whatsoever of these allegations prior to them becoming public.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Courell have any regrets about the statement he made on that day?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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It is referencing that he had absolutely no prior knowledge of these allegations before they came to light in the various documentaries.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Therefore Mr. Courell had no prior knowledge of those complaints that were made prior to them coming out as serious allegations in documentaries.
Mr. David Courell:
Correct. A complaint is a trigger for action to be taken and that is how a proper and due process should be followed. If anybody presents with any concerns, we would always encourage them to go via our existing vehicles of access. We have our safeguarding team, our people and culture team for employee matters and, as referenced earlier, we also introduced Raiseaconcern, so there are three avenues within the FAI for people to formalise their complaints. That then enables the system to take action.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Following everyone else’s line of questions, can Mr. Courell withdraw any of the statement that was made given the information that is public knowledge that he may have been included in emails in 2023 giving him the information of these complaints that were made?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Pakes mentioned she had no knowledge of these complaints prior to 2024. Does she have an exact date of when she was informed of this? Can she tell me who informed her? Was it from public documentation or was it somebody from within the organisation?
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
I am trying to be consistent in my approach here because I am being mindful. As I said, I would not normally talk about steps that happen through a concern or complaint. I have to be mindful here that there will be individuals out there who have genuine concerns, who want to come forward and they have to trust in the process of confidentiality and I have to stand over that.
I am really careful, for their needs, that I do not breach anything around that. Any process that might have happened is key to that confidentiality.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We have heard extensively how safeguarding policies are in place right across the board. Policies can be in place but it is the follow-up and the action that is vital and that is where we are asking the questions today. Ms Pakes has outlined the safeguarding policies. Is Ms Rafferty happy that these policies have been enacted right across the board? When did they begin? Did they begin prior to 2023 or have they only subsequently been brought in and enacted?
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
I joined the organisation in November 2022 so I am not an expert on the safeguarding policies prior to that. Ms Pakes and her team are very diligent in ensuring those policies are enacted. In relation to "Girls in Green" and the concerns and complaints that were brought directly to me by the PFA of Ireland, again we ensured that we approached those complaints with compassion and a level of confidentiality. There was a group of individuals who were bringing concerns to us. At that point, we established our oversight committee. We brought in expertise, as Mr. Keohane referred to. That is where we considered our Raiseaconcern service. For me, where we are right now, I would reiterate what Ms Pakes is saying. It is really important for individuals who are out there to trust the FAI and the processes, policies and procedures. I will go back to my comment that I made on that day. It is about behaviour, openness, and support. While I know the Senator is referring back to previous communication, we are very clear that as an association we want to create a safe space and that individuals will come forward at different points and we will enact those policies.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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So Ms Rafferty is standing over it that absolutely every action was taken when it was necessary to be taken, right from the start.
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
When received those complaints - that is a very generic statement and I apologise to the Senator. I want to be really clear when we are talking about those complaints that were brought forward, I actually was quite shocked. When those complaints were brought forward it really emphasised the importance of establishing good oversight.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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And clearly looking at the time, is Ms Rafferty satisfied that every single action was taken? It is a yes or no answer.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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When they were brought. Thank you.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I welcome all the witnesses. The word "trust" was just used. It is very hard sitting on this side of the table, listening. It is like watching a US television network with some of the people pleading the Fifth Amendment, not answering questions to a committee of people who were elected and are in place here to represent the taxpayer. It is very hard to have trust, not on a personal basis but in the group or organisation, for those of us sitting on this side. To me, concerns and complaints are one and the same. If there are concerns, they should be treated similarly. I want to ask Mr. Cooke about his comment. Was it in 2024 or May 2023 that he was made aware of concerns or complaints?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Concerns?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Did he have any concerns or any notification of concerns prior to that, that he was aware of?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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To Ms Rafferty, regarding an email I am looking at that was sent in May 2023, it stands out to me, I do not know whether we can refer to it, the phrase "that definitely keeps us safe for now". That strikes me as though it was looking to keep the FAI safe; there is nothing about the people referred to that the concern should be about.
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
If I refer back to my interaction with the individuals involved in this, because I have had a lot of one-to-one interaction with the group, I absolutely believe that group has a level of trust in me because I have dealt with their concerns. I have treated them with respect and respected their confidentiality. I have created a space where they can raise those concerns. I recognise the level of frustration among the committee here. I am really sincere in what I say about not impacting an ongoing Garda investigation because I have dealt with those individuals on a personal basis. I would have to hold that line. I am happy to answer those questions when the Garda investigation is completed. It is really important because I know those individuals involved in the case and the ongoing Garda investigation.
In terms of general concerns that are brought, I do believe staff internally and those involved in football externally consider me as someone they could trust and come forward. I do believe that as an executive, a board and those involved in football within the association, we have created a level of trust where people can come forward.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have correspondence from Eileen Gleeson, who was asked by the committee to come in, where she states that she expressed a desire to come in, however, the employer's decision was to the effect that it would be wholly inappropriate for her to attend the committee in any capacity. Why would you not want somebody coming in here who this committee asked to attend? Who made that decision? Who wrote that correspondence to Eileen Gleeson?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Despite the fact that this committee asked for her to come in. That is our remit, to ask who we see fit.
Mr. Tony Keohane:
As Mr. Courell said in his opening statement, we also felt that we could properly represent the organisation through the people who are here present in front of you. Our overriding bit, let me repeat, is that we could not encounter a situation where somebody who is taking a case would be debated in a public forum, a case that we intend to robustly defend.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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On those safety concerns, were any of the witnesses made aware of them? Was Mr. Courell made aware of those concerns from Eileen Gleeson?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the national team, was Mr. Courell aware of these issues?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Mr. David Courell:
I appreciate the Deputy is going to maybe baulk at this but there will be limitations to what I can say. I will try my best to address them. The limitations are there because we are in ongoing litigation. With that said, there are a range of issues that were identified in the unfortunate media leak of that case. We have not yet had an opportunity to mount our defence but as Mr. Keohane said, it will be robust. We will be submitting that to the Circuit Court in due course. It would be right and proper for us to respect the process and enable that to play out. With that said, I want to just give reassurance to every young girl, every mum, every dad who is listening or watching today that the association places a huge emphasis on women's and girls' football. The scale of growth it is experiencing is immense, with a 79% increase in participation in women's and girls' football over the last four seasons. We have played our part and continue to do so by investing heavily, with the 12th-highest investment across UEFA, into those standards. With regard to any issues that were identified in relation to the women's national team, it is only right and proper, as we have acknowledged, there were some concerns or challenges that were raised. We listened, we took action and they were addressed long before any of this came to light, such as ensuring that the women's national team now has a security detail in support of them.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was Ms Rafferty or Ms Pakes made aware of that at the time?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Ms Rafferty was not aware or was not made aware of them, no?
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
At different points employees bring different concerns to me. There are a number of allegations in the application so I cannot go into one specific thing as to whether I was aware of it or not. There are many allegations; some I was aware of and others I was not because I am not part of the operations of any of the international teams.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. As other members have said, there is a lot of positive work being done by the FAI. However, the issue we are dealing with is around safeguarding. Some very serious allegations have been made which relate to how the organisation responded and some governance issues. I want to clarify what we know already. We know that a formal complaint was made in February 2024, which Mr. Courell was aware of. Mr. Cook and Mr. Keohane indicated that, as of February 2024, they were aware of a formal complaint made by the PFA. Were all of the directors of the FAI aware of it in February 2024? Okay.
We know there were the newspaper reports and the documentary aired in July 2024. When were the Department and Sport Ireland made aware of the formal complaint? Were the Department and Sport Ireland aware of any concerns that had been raised prior to the formal complaint?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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When did Sport Ireland become aware of it?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask about NGBs generally. They have safeguarding policies. Part of the issue here seems to be the debate between what is classified as a formal complaint and the raising of a concern. I do not want to go in to specific issues, but the dispute here seems to be that while concerns were raised in May 2023, a formal complaint did not come until February 2024. Generally with regard to NGBs or from a policy perspective, what is the standard when an issue comes up? Does it have to be a formal complaint? What happens if someone says there is a rumour or whatever?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What is the threshold? We are used to loads of rumours being thrown around in politics, but this is a safeguarding issue. This is something specific. The dispute here seems to be about the difference between a complaint and a concern that has been expressed. When would Dr. May expect an organisation to act?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I was not asking in terms of a notification. I am asking in general terms. What is the threshold if a concern was raised or a complaint made about safeguarding?
Dr. Úna May:
I do not think there is a defined threshold and the Deputy has raised a fair issue there. It is challenging when there is no defined threshold. However, we would not expect an NGB to act immediately and to take fundamental actions in relation to a concern. We would expect it to explore it in greater depth and to look into the issue and establish whether it felt that there was a greater issue of concern here. Until it becomes a formal complaint, it is very difficult for an NGB to respond.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I might ask Mr. Courell because this is specifically about the difference between a concern and a complaint. We have clearly established that a formal complaint was made in February and I am satisfied in terms of the responses that action was taken on foot of that. What is the difference between a concern and a complaint? What is threshold in terms of action being taken?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking in a general sense.
Mr. David Courell:
It would be if someone came to me today and said, "I think something is happening and it is not happening to me". I would want to afford them the safe space. I think I am an open individual who people would come to have that conversation with. The next step would be to encourage them to engage with the processes we have in place to formalise it. It also, however, depends on whether it is a child or adult that has been subjected to the inappropriate behaviour. As Ms Pakes referenced earlier, a key tenet of safeguarding legislation is that the autonomy of an adult needs to be respected and it is therefore their choice if they want to report their experiences. We are only able to take action with a report, otherwise we would be at risk of defamation or a range of different topics. I thank Dr. May for acknowledging the difficulty that any NGB would face in dealing with this generic situation.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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That is specifically why I asked the question. In the document the FAI provided on safeguarding in Irish football, one of the things it indicates is that a stand down order is an immediate protective measure that can be issued on three grounds: when statutory authorities are investigating a child welfare or vulnerable person concern; when concerns are raised with the FAI outside of such an investigation; or when Garda vetting disclosures indicate risk.
I totally get that fair procedure has to be established. However, our concern - and the answer is yet to be established - is that when a formal complaint was made, did the FAI act in accordance with procedures? On the evidence we have heard, I think that has been case. Our issue comes back to Deputy O'Sullivan's point about if one was the parent of young children and so on, if concerns were raised with the FAI outside-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that it is not generic but again this comes back to the discussion that this is safeguarding in Irish football generally, that is how it is expressed and worded with the FAI document. The critical issue for us is determining the thresholds that need to be determined on safeguarding. What you seem to be saying to me is that it almost has to move to that level - if it is an adult player, to a formal complaint process. I totally accept you are very reasonable and encourage people to engage. Is that where the FAI will move to take action?
Mr. David Courell:
I apologise to the Deputy but I want to make sure that Ms Pakes is able to land her message around his specific reference to stand down orders. There is a clear distinction between child welfare and vulnerable adult versus adult. The stand down policy the Deputy referenced relates to children and vulnerable adults as opposed to more generic concerns around adults.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Courell potentially define a young female player as a vulnerable adult, particularly if they are in the company of someone in a position of power?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask one final question?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Deputy has 15 seconds.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It directly relates to the Cathaoirleach. Mr. Robert Watt, as a director of the FAI, contacted the Chair specifically around this and I question whether this was appropriate. Did the FAI ask Mr. Watt, as a director, to contact the Chair of this committee in advance of the meeting?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Just to be clear, I did not have a conversation with him. Will the chair of the FAI answer the question?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There was no call. He messaged me.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I thank the Chair.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I was going to ask that question.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is safe to say the last time the FAI appeared before this committee it was probably one of the most infamous hearings in the committee's history. As somebody who is heavily involved with the game and has a huge love for it, I was always very hopeful that the next time the FAI returned, it would be in a more positive setting and its representatives could outline the good work that is done under the new era to rebuild the reputation of and restore confidence in the organisation. Unfortunately, the uncertainty in recent days and the toing and froing - "Are they coming, are they not?" - probably has not covered the organisation in much glory.
That said, however, it is prudent of the FAI to reverse its decision and attend the committee today, considering the significance of the issues that have been raised and highlighted by my colleagues here, but also given the climate we are in and given that our academies will be heavily reliant on government funding in the upcoming budget in a couple of weeks' time and that any potential risk to that funding would have a detrimental effect on the evolution of the grassroots game in this country. I am a firm believer that you cannot punish the next generation of Irish footballers, be they children or women, for the sins of suits in boardrooms past or present.
With that in mind, I have listened intently to the answers the witnesses could and could not give. Can they outline to the committee how many outstanding legal cases there are at present?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Rafferty mentioned in one of her answers that at times there can be many allegations. Are there any stand-down orders in place at the moment?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is Ms Pakes as well.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I just picked up on a comment Ms Rafferty made that there can be many allegations, which I presume-----
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
My terminology was probably incorrect. It is actually about concerns or if someone wants to raise something where they are not sure how to move forward with it. It is about coming to someone they feel they can trust and where they will be able to talk about something in a confidential manner. While my role and the remit is more within staff and employees within the association, I have got involved and people would come to me from grassroots level just with my interaction daily with people across the football community.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Pakes want to comment on that, whether there are any stand-down orders in place at the moment?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But are there any in place at the moment?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There are. Can Ms Pakes give a number?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. No problem.
In relation to any Garda investigation or potential litigation or lawsuit that may arise out of anything like that, I trust the FAI is indemnified against any action. What I am trying to get to is, if there are any costs to that, the potential knock-on effects it might have on Irish football.
Mr. David Courell:
That will depend on the circumstance or the nature of any legal action that may come, whether it is current or historical, depending on which insurers we were with, what policy cover there was, the nature of the complaint, the nature of the action or response. I do not have a blanket answer for the Deputy, I am afraid. It is unique to each and every case.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am probably unique among my colleagues around the table here in that I am a designated liaison person for a large organisation under the FAI's remit and I am mandated with upholding best practice with regard to safeguarding. I have gone through the stringent criteria the FAI has put clubs through. It is ironic that we jump through so many hoops, particularly to meet our licensing criteria in relation to safeguarding and so on. Is Mr. Courell confident that the organisation is meeting its own standards and thresholds that it is setting for grassroots clubs and League of Ireland clubs around the country?
Mr. David Courell:
Yes. I believe we do fantastic work in safeguarding, within both the organisation and our community. We are driving day in, day out for stronger standards. Our FAI club mark programme, just looking across the grassroots game, has been in place since 2017 and has been inching closer and closer to full compliance. We have made that mandatory from early 2026 as part of that. Not only do clubs and the volunteers themselves have a legal obligation to be vetted and safeguarding-trained; we will audit each and every one of those clubs to enable them to gain that club mark process or that club mark mark. Our colleagues from the Department or Sport Ireland may have a view on it, but we are absolutely doing good work in the safeguarding space, and that should be recognised. I thank not only our staff but all the volunteers who help enable that system to work for us.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. May touched on this earlier, that she has confidence in the collaboration and the process that Sport Ireland has with the FAI and the metrics they are working towards in advance of 2027. At this stage of the process and Sport Ireland's monitoring of the FAI, are there any downfalls, any glaringly obvious holes, that the FAI is not meeting at present, or is Sport Ireland confident that, collectively, they are on the right path for them to reach their metrics by 2027?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With the MOU, yes.
Dr. Úna May:
With the MOU, it is a three-year process. It has been in place and it was only signed less than a year ago, so we do not expect all the requirements to be met immediately. However, we work very closely and we meet regularly to assess progress on various issues and we are very comfortable that, as we progress through, we get the full transparent responses from the FAI as to where it is at and we will highlight issues. The MOU does not specifically go down the road of safeguarding but we will at all times monitor and check and verify that the FAI is in adherence with the MOU because it is very important to us. We are comfortable and confident that it has made significant progress around good governance. The previous MOU had 160-plus recommendations; the current MOU has only 16 recommendations. That is a reflection of the progress that has been made, and we will continue to manage that process.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank all the witnesses for being here. Like others, I echo not only the good work that is being done but also the sentiments of the Chair, that we really have not had a great start. I appreciate from the FAI's perspective that there are confidentiality concerns around issues relating to safeguarding but I do not think it is striking the balance right. I am seeking comfort, and I think the public are seeking comfort, that the organisation is safe, and that is what it has asserted it wants to provide. I do not believe, however, that the balance is struck correctly at the moment. For example, in the opening statements across the groups, we heard that nobody should feel unsafe in Irish football, nobody should have felt unsafe in the past and nobody should feel unheard. However, there are voices that we clearly want to hear from as a committee and that we have requested who are not here today. In normal governance procedures, we, as those charged with oversight, are the ones who decide whose voices are important in our being satisfied that our oversight is met.
Having said all that, like Deputy Byrne, I want to try to phrase my questions in such a way that they will lead to meaningful conversations rather than the very frustrating answers we are hearing from the FAI to a lot of the questions being put to it.
I believe it was Ms Rafferty who answered earlier that the Raiseaconcern confidential reporting service was implemented in June 2024. Is that correct?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Can she tell me what the prior mechanism for reporting of concerns was? I appreciate that, as she said, she started in November 2022 but, as director of people and culture, she would have been briefed on what was in place beforehand, I am sure.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Then does Ms Pakes have the answer to that? I apologise to Ms Rafferty. What was it that was in place before the Raiseaconcern service?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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How many reports and concerns have been raised annually under the Raiseaconcern service? How does that compare with figures prior to the introduction of that service with any equivalent mechanism that existed before then? Do the witnesses have those figures to hand?
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
We have 129 raised through the Raiseaconcern service. There are a variety of concerns raised. They are not all relating to safeguarding matters.
Regarding safeguarding matters, we have had 109 people come to us with concerns. We have signposted them. We have spoken to them. We have directed them to the right call.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Do the witnesses have the figures from before that service was introduced? As many of my colleagues have tried to do, I am trying to get a picture of the operations that were in place in terms of safeguarding before and after some of the very pertinent issues under discussion. Does the FAI have that kind of analysis? If so, is the service working?
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
It was important that we continue to work with our processes within sections 5 and 6 of the policy because it is mandatory that we have reporting procedures, as outlined in our child safeguarding statement. The Raiseaconcern service was to give that anonymous aspect to it because we did get feedback that there could be times when people wanted to report a concern but they felt that they could not because-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Okay. I thank Ms Pakes for that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Briefly, please.
Mr. David Courell:
It was introduced just over a year ago. As Ms Pakes has kindly offered, we have had 129 approaches to that process. Forty-three of those are actually outside of the remit. They were queries or questions about other sports that presented, so that number is slightly inflated. That leaves, effectively, 86 cases, of which 70 have been closed, 16 remain open and eight of them-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate Mr. Courell giving additional detail and colour, but it is really not what I am looking for.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have a limited amount of time and I just want to continue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Please supply the information to the committee separately.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Please do provide that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It would be helpful.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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In my line of questioning, it is not really what I am looking for.
I am not sure whether the witnesses answered Deputy Byrne's question on how many legal cases were currently pending with the FAI.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Do the witnesses have the broader figures as well?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Perhaps the FAI could furnish them to the committee afterwards also.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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My apologies.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I must have missed that.
On a previous exchange between Ms Pakes and Deputy O'Sullivan, if there is an assault committed against an adult and that assault is witnessed, is there a requirement for that to be reported by the witness under the FAI's current safeguarding requirements?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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If there is an assault committed against an adult - I did not specify - and the assault is witnessed, is there an obligation on the witness to come forward?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It might be something to look at within the FAI's safeguarding.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Great.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Great, because I think-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that but there are also instances in which self-determination can be hampered by a culture that is created whereby reporting-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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That is why I am asking about witnesses because witnesses can be vital people in those instances. Sometimes, the assault itself can be a form of intimidation for the people around. We all know from the clubs of which we are all members and the environments that we operate in within sport that it is a team event.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have one minute left and I want to discuss an issue that has not arisen today. My questions are probably for Mr. Courell. SIPTU has sought to engage with the FAI on the subject of the planned reduction in jobs across the organisation, and particularly football development officers. Does the FAI plan on collaborative engagement in order to protect those jobs? Does the FAI consider any of those redundancies as relating to safeguarding?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Deputy hooked it in.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I got there.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Fair play, that is a skill in itself.
Mr. David Courell:
The Deputy could have opened with "safeguarding roles within the association". Yes, we have commenced, as members are aware, a transformation programme. It is the first time for quite some time the association has taken a proper look at how we are structured. The ambition for this programme is to deliver strategic alignment, cultural change and, last but not least, financial sustainability of the organisation. Sadly, that is going to have an impact on our workforce and colleagues, and I am hugely empathetic to that. We have brilliant people working within Abbotstown. We are trying to take as delicate an approach to this as we can. Hence, we have opened with voluntary redundancy, which opened formally last week. When we come through that process, we will then be in a position to move forward with the broader change. The impact-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Will that involve engaging with the unions?
Mr. David Courell:
Yes. We are in regular engagement with SIPTU. I am meeting it tomorrow. Yes, we are in regular engagement. SIPTU only represents a cohort of our staff. We have established a staff representative group, as is custom and practice in this process. They are now up and running and supporting the wider staff on engagement on this topic.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Do any of the roles impact on safeguarding?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Even though I have many questions, I will be brief.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So rapid fire questions.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Mr. Courell, in his opening statement, said he would like "to reassure the committee that no disrespect was intended." I accept that but I can assure him that disrespect was felt. Mr. Courell continued by saying: "It was borne out of a genuine concern that the association has had regarding some of the contradictory messaging". The Oireachtas committee was very specific and clear about what we wanted the FAI to come in and talk about. What is meant by the phrase "contradictory messaging" and from whom?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Specifically, on the phrase "contradictory messaging".
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am under pressure for time.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Mr. David Courell:
We have been consistent throughout that there are limitations to what we can engage with today. We took great reassurance, at every turn, from the committee whereby it reinforced not only its own terms of reference but its statement that it did not and would not want to compromise an ongoing investigation, and that it would not want to explore specific cases, yet when we furnished the committee with the evidence that we were able to provide, the committee sought 16 items. We were only able to provide six.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Correct. Why did the FAI not provide any details on its board meetings?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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As the guardian of this committee, I need the witnesses to accept something. I welcome this question and I will give time back to the Deputy. Obviously, as a committee, we completely reject and do not accept Mr. Courell's statement on that. Go ahead, Deputy.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will move off because it was a specific question on safeguarding. We will move off because Mr. Courell is not going to answer the question.
I have heard a lot before about the toxic culture within the FAI. I never experienced it first hand because I have had an extremely positive experience of the grassroots level. My four daughters all play soccer with Highview Athletic. The facilities, care and coaching they get is absolutely fantastic. I want to put that on the record in respect of the grassroots side of things. Everything that I have seen today has done nothing to negate the public perception of a toxic culture that has existed in the past in the FAI and, potentially, exists today as we speak.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am pushed for time and I want to ask about child safeguarding. The FAI has 225,000 players and 100,000 volunteers, so how many allegations - not cases - are there on an annual basis?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So, the number went from 109 people to 21.
I note from Mr. Courell's opening remarks that the FAI has employed "a full-time dedicated safeguarding lead, with a strong team of four now in place."
What is the annual cost in that regard?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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A ballpark figure.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are we talking €300,000 or €400,000?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You are not going to answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Courell might provide the committee with as much detail as he can afterwards.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to that if we have time at the end.
I am going to go to Mr. Keohane. When did he become independent chair of the FAI?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When did he become aware of the historic allegations from the 1990s?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did he share this information with the board at that stage?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Perfect.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Project Magenta. What investigations into these allegations were instigated in the context of Project Magenta?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long did that take?
Mr. Tony Keohane:
It is really important to say that we took onboard some specialist help. We even had sessions with outside experts in terms of how to deal with the issues. We moved at pace and with determination to make sure we were absolutely resolute in terms of this being dealt with quickly and appropriately, which we did.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How does Mr. Keohane feel about FAI executives repeatedly declaring in the summer of 2024 that they first became aware of the allegations early that year, particularly when there has been a lot of evidence that there was information out there in 2023?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In fairness, Deputy Cleere is asking a question which is pretty generic. He is not asking about any individual case.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He is asking, basically, if you were aware of any issues prior to 2024. Other people have answered the same question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Is Mr. Keohane saying he had no knowledge of any concerns prior?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fine.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On the FAI upgrading its processes and procedures, we do not have a figure for the costs relating to the head of safeguarding and the team of four in place. How much did the FAI spend in upgrading processes and procedures for child safeguarding and safeguarding in general?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to Mr. Paul Cooke in his role as President of the FAI. Based on everything he has seen today and over recent weeks and months, does he have 100% confidence in the board and executive of the FAI?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Cooke saying he has 100% confidence in both?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is he 100% confident in how they have dealt with the specific issues we spoke about earlier?
Mr. Paul Cooke:
As Mr. Keohane said, when we became aware of matters in January or February 2024, we moved with speed. As to what we did in terms of the committee, the oversight of that, in terms of bringing in outside expertise, in terms of the courses we took, I do not think we could have moved any quicker.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Cooke is 100% happy with the processes and procedures?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is Dr. May 100% happy? Does she have 100% confidence in the board of the FAI in terms of how it has dealt with this particular situation?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So Dr. May 100% happy.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will be very brief because I am conscious of time. Mr. Robert Watt was mentioned. He is a board member. Deputy Byrne asked a question on a call that was made. What that call was about?
Mr. Tony Keohane:
This call was made in the context of calls I was making to various board members. As members of the committee are aware, we would have been in regular contact and would have had a number of board meetings over the course of the past week to prepare and make our decision to be here today. In the context of that, there was a conversation between myself and Mr. Watt. However, it was not solely with Mr. Watt. I had conversations with all other board members.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Keohane think it was appropriate for Mr. Watt to make those calls?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What was the purpose of that call?
Mr. Tony Keohane:
The purpose was in line with the purpose of my call with the Cathaoirleach, which was to try to get reassurance about the committee sticking to the agenda we have agreed, which is not to get into any cases. I was also concerned about the possible appearance of somebody who has a legal case against the organisation. I was looking for further reassurance that those two points would be maintained.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Courell has a minute.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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By not answering of questions.
Mr. David Courell:
-----an indicator of a toxic culture by not answering questions. It needs to be recognised we are here today having forewarned that we were unable to answer questions because we genuinely respect due process and we put the outcome and justice for the individuals involved at a premium.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, there was no specific case being spoken about. I was speaking generally.
Mr. David Courell:
The Deputy talked in general about what he heard here today. I just want to make the point that because we are here respecting due process and the confidence of the individuals involved in that case and their desire for justice, it should not be used against us as a indicator of a toxic culture.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The point is made. I am next on the list, so I have eaten into my own time. We will then have the other Deputies. After that we will have a second round, during which members will have three minutes each.
The benefit of sitting here is that you get the flavour of all the answers and questions. Deputy Byrne asked about the difference between a concern and a complaint. Mr. Courell previously said that the issues relating to RTÉ and Sunday Independent investigation and the complaints surrounding them had crystalised. That is the work he used, "crystalised". I presume that is all in tandem with whatever was said about January and February of 2024. That is in the complaint territory. To be honest, the issue is the concern territory. We can all comprehend the complaint territory. We can, in fairness to the chair and the president of the FAI, Mr. Courell and the process, we can all understand the formalities that kicked in. The issue which has been exposed by very good journalism, despite people thinking internally that these were unfortunate leaks - not all leaks are unfortunate - relates to the concern component, which comes before the complaint, and to the checks and balances and the awareness levels that existed. None of the witnesses is willing to talk about this. We have obviously established that as part of this process.
The real issue for this committee is how to ensure that, working through Sport Ireland, the body through which the FAI comes before us, there is a mechanism in place to ensure that the process by which concerns are dealt with is effective. If concerns then become complaints, matters move to the other side. The committee cannot establish that. We need the help of the witnesses to do so.
There is the legal case and the Garda investigation, on the one hand, but everything that everyone who is sitting at the back of the committee room - members of the media and a number of journalists in particular - have exposed leads to greater concern. My daughter Aoibhe Kelly plays for Arra Rovers. She is a left winger. She loves it. The people who work with her are fantastic. They are incredible. However, I would have a deep concern if the category of concerns was not going to be appropriately dealt with before they became complaints. I do not think I can articulate, on behalf of the committee, anything more accurate than what I just said. That is a summation of everything today. I do not even want the witnesses to respond.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No, but you can if you want.
I want to ask some specific questions and then I am going to ask for a lot of documentation. I have a habit of asking for documentation. First, can the witnesses provide the committee with everything from January 2024 in relation to this issue? Can they also provide a timeline of everything that has happened that Mr. Courell and the chairperson will stand over in relation to these issues? That would be helpful. Can the witnesses provide who was in what position during the period 2022 to date? There may have been movement and it is so we can correlate. Furthermore, I have some specific questions on what I think the witnesses called project magenta. We called it operation magenta. What are all the costs related to that, or how much is that costing given that the taxpayer's role with the FAI now is so elevated?
Specifically about the events in Limerick, I would like a timeline to be provided of everything that has been since the complaints were made in Limerick, and information on the assistance line provided to people in the FAI. I was told about one specific situation where somebody who had very deep concerns and suicidal intentions contacted the line and did not get any help. I can provide extra information on that privately. I am not going to do it here. It has been brought to my attention by somebody. I do not even have the names and I do not want to have the names.
I have questions for Ms Pakes. Throughout this process, from 2023 to date, have you been in your position permanently all the time?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. I wrote something down when you were asked about complaints by one of my colleagues here. You said sometimes they go to other channels.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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How would any complaints about safeguarding not go through you?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So all complaints with safeguarding automatically go through you?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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But with the policies you manage, have all safeguarding complaints or issues been brought to your attention first?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In fairness to you, you outline in great detail that you oversee these policies-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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-----so it is for you to answer. Within the policies that you operate-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will make it quicker for us. Has there every been a case in your employment, within your remit or policy, that did not come to you first?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that. My point is whether they ever go to other members of the senior management team or directorate, or whatever, for a period of time before they come to you?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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And would that cause you concern?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. In fairness to the president, Mr. Cooke, when he was asked specifically when he became aware of these issues he was absolute in relation to January 2024. This is not a catch-all question, but it is relating to the five people who are here from the FAI. It is a generic enough question, but it is not a question I do not think they can refuse to answer. Were the witnesses ever aware of any concerns relating to this whole issue that is now in the public domain to do with players, as outlined in that documentary? They do not have to detail the concerns. It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Were they ever aware of any concerns relating to these issues prior to January 2024. I would like all five of them to answer the question. I will start with Ms Rafferty.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Not the complaints now, the concerns.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not asking you to.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is really a "Yes" or "No" answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not going to ask you to go into any detail.
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
But again, it is really challenging. On the concerns and the complaints that those individuals brought to us at the end of January, multiple different concerns were brought. Some of them have gone forward to be part of a formal Garda investigation. I am not sure which ones have been formalised and which ones have not been formalised.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is not the question I asked, in fairness. I asked whether you were aware of any concerns prior to January 2024. I cannot run down the clock any longer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay, I will rephrase. Can you please tell us you were not aware of any concerns prior to 2024? I will rephrase the question for everybody.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Look, I have to move on. I asked you to say you were not aware and you did not say it. Ms Pakes, I ask you the same question. Were you aware of any concerns prior to January 2024? It is a quick answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Concerns relating to these issue. I have outlined now on numerous occasions which concerns we are talking about.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sorry, I need quiet in the Gallery. Go on, Ms Pakes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Cooke.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Anything at all. In fairness, you are always straight-answering. Mr. Courell.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Given the fact I have outlined the difference between concerns and complaints, go on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It was crystallised.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know, but I have asked you to say you were not aware. You either can say-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Chairperson?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Absolutely not, okay. Senator Mullen.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The one thing I do not understand is that the world and his mother, and anybody who knows and has worked in an organisation where it comes to a point where formal complaints are made, whether in relation to an historical or current thing, knows organisations in some way have to prepare for that kind of stuff and that there is therefore stuff going around. I really do not understand why the witnesses cannot just make that much clear.
Prior to the point when complaints are crystallised, of course there is an element of discussion internally in organisations about information that may or may not be true that is coming to hand and has to be prepared for in some way. The witnesses know that we know that the FAI had those types of internal discussions going on. I do not see how it compromises any investigation to say that of course the FAI had wind of certain things that were being said and it had to prepare to deal with them. There is no shame in that. I cannot understand why the FAI does not make that clear. I put this question to Mr Courell.
Mr. David Courell:
I thank Senator Mullen for acknowledging the difficult situation we find ourselves in. As referenced in the opening statement, we have very clear legal guidance. This is not to be evasive in any way. Genuinely, I wish I could come in here and address every question the committee has today.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I have heard of an abundance of caution but it seems to me the FAI is drowning in caution. We deal with an environment around here when, every now and again, the Government tells us it is acting on legal advice when it proposes to do or not do something, and we do not see what that legal advice is. The claim that legal advice prevents someone from doing something can really be the last refuge of people who do not want to engage. I think the witnesses would make life a lot easier for all of us if they told us that the world and its mother knows the FAI had wind of stuff, it had to prepare for it, it did not know what was true or not true, and it had to protect people's reputations. Ordinary people would understand this kind of analysis from the FAI.
Having said that, I think the FAI is absolutely entitled to push back strongly against any suggestion its attempt to address the process, whether it is excessively cautious or not, should be seen in any way as indicative of any kind of alleged toxic culture. Organisations struggle to deal with bad news when it is on the scene. I do not think anybody here would, on consideration, want to make a link between allegations of toxic culture and the FAI's attempt to manage this situation, whether we agree with the idirbheartaíocht or negotiations, or that an element of this has to go on, whereby the FAI has to secure its rights as it sees them and the committee has to secure its best efforts to address potential issues of public concern.
I would like Mr. Courell to address with more clarity what exactly he is speaking about when he talks about "contradictory messaging". I want to go back to this phrase and get a bit more clarity on what is meant by it.
Mr. David Courell:
Apologies for the repetition but it is several things. I made the point earlier that the level of evidence sought contradicted the committee's assurances that it did not want to go into specific cases. Ten of the 16 items sought related to a specific case. When we advised the committee of our inability to furnish it, the same request kept on consistently being made by the committee. Again, this made us uneasy with regard to the scope being respected in the way we expected it would be. The other variable was the introduction of additional attendees, most notably an individual who works in our communications department. That person does not have an active role in safeguarding and would not logically have been an attendee the association would have introduced to this forum. Again, it was another indicator that there was an expectation of delving into the detail of a specific case.
I reiterate that our position was never intended to show any disrespect to the committee. Our concerns were grounded in a genuine desire to ensure we did not compromise justice for those involved in the case.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We now have two non-members, who are very welcome, and we will take them in the order in which they arrived. We will start with Deputy Michael Murphy, who has two minutes.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for this opportunity. I have an observation. The body language jumps out at me. It does not look good and it prompts me to ask a question of Mr. Courell, Mr. Cooke and Mr. Keohane. Since they took up their roles, has any member of the board or any senior member of the executive team come to them in the context of these latest developments taking a personal toll? Have any of them said they are considering their position?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The witnesses are saying "No".
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to speak about grassroots football. We all know that the heart of football in Ireland is not about the boardroom or the balance sheet, but about the kids and adults putting on the jersey. It is about volunteer coaching. It is about the volunteer who is probably right now cutting grass. It is about the volunteer washing the jerseys. These volunteers are so angry. Right now, they are questioning their continued involvement in the sport. Their reputations are being dragged through the mud. I want to give Mr. Courell the opportunity to address these volunteers. There are 80,000 volunteers involved in grassroots football and 220,000 registered players in grassroots football. What does Mr. Courell say to them today?
Mr. David Courell:
I do not know whether it is appropriate for Deputy Murphy to speak on behalf of 100,000 volunteers and say they are all questioning their role in the game. I myself am a volunteer and I have seen first hand the sterling work they do. They are the lifeblood of the game and Deputy Murphy is accurate in that. We are hugely grateful to be one of the biggest participation sports in the country. We cannot do it all as an NGB. We need the army of well-intentioned people who are out there coaching one, two or three teams a week, doing the accounts, making the tea and whatever it may entail. This is what makes Irish football tick. Our volunteers see we recognise them. We want to continue to increase our recognition of them. We are introducing volunteer awards. We are in the process of introducing them at present. They are genuinely a core aspect of everything that we do. I hope they recognise, just as Senator Mullen did earlier, that we are in a challenging environment right now when we are trying to do right by the women at the centre of the situation. This should not be taken as a negative.
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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Mr. Courell mentioned security earlier. Did the players and management of the women's national team themselves request security during the period from 2023 to early 2024?
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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Did the players or management of the women's national team themselves request security during the period from 2023 to early 2024?
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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Would anybody else from the FAI be able to answer this question, please?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The FAI might write back to us.
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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Will Ms Pakes confirm whether the new safeguarding policy for national teams was introduced in draft form in May 2024, almost a year after the organisation became aware of the "RTÉ Investigates: Girls in Green" documentary? Will she elaborate on what was the cause of the time lag in that year?
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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The safeguarding policy.
Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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No, for the senior teams.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We will do another quick round and everybody will have three minutes, if that is okay. The first person in this round is Senator Ní Chuilinn.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I request that we, as a committee, ask other NGBs to let us know what is standard in relation to concerns and complaints. I suggest including Swim Ireland in this, given that it has a history of sexual abuse and sexual scandals. I would like a clearer picture on the semantics between "concern" and "complaints".
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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My next question is for Mr. Courell and Ms Rafferty. At best, this is a learning experience for them as executives but at worst they have created more trauma, more hurt and more pain for the women at the centre of this. Talking about the difference between complaints and concerns is a red herring. We are not talking about a set of stolen footballs. We are talking about widespread historic sexual deviant abuse of women under the care of the FAI, its coaches and its managers.
When the FAI gets a concern about racism, we read about it in the newspapers and it is dealt with immediately. The association even called its own process "Raiseaconcern" and not "Raiseacomplaint", so why was it not started back in May 2023? As Senator Mullen said, we all know the association knew, so why was it not started then if the association really wanted to do good work and put these women first? Mr. Courell said it was harrowing to hear about this situation. He said he heard about it in July 2024.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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No, he said in July 2024 in his media statement - I was going to say circus - it was harrowing, and it was-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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-----but it was harrowing in 2023, so why did he not instigate Raiseaconcern in May 2023 if he really wanted to do the right thing?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I would love if Mr. Courell could do so.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Courell did not need to distinguish that point; I know that. That was not what I was-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is fair.
Mr. David Courell:
The Senator has made some pretty sweeping statements that I think in the fullness of time we will be more than able to address because as I said, there is a clear distinction. People have been coalescing around the term "concern" today, but if we go back over the correspondence at the time, which we are not going to go into today, it was not identified as that. It was identified as a rumour. There is a clear distinction that needs to-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; I am going to have to stop Mr. Courell. He wrote a press release preparing for his response and circulated it and Ms Rafferty said that was grand and keeps the FAI safe for now. That was in May 2023. There was no concern there for the women, absolutely none. It was enough of a concern to Mr. Courell, and it was not a rumour. It was more than a rumour to Mr. Courell because he wrote a press release and Ms Rafferty decided it kept the FAI safe. It was more than a rumour, and Mr. Courell knows it was.
Mr. David Courell:
As I said, we look forward to the day, and I mean this, when we can come back here and defend our reputation and give the Senator the comfort that she is clearly seeking. As I mentioned earlier, though, our consciences are clear. Until there is a moment in time when this An Garda Síochána investigation is concluded, we are not going to be able to comment any further I am afraid.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Was Cathal Dervan offered extra money in his WRC case to make sure those concerns were not made public?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Senator, we have parameters we have to stick by.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Pakes.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Pakes. I really appreciate that. I was not talking about children, but I do appreciate it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy O'Sullivan.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to Senator Ní Chuilinn, she hit the nail on the head there when she made the comparison with racism. We are all familiar with those campaigns. Things are escalated immediately. There has been a time lag here between the emails and the actual complaint, which I think is inexcusable. Whatever about people's ability or inability to talk about the emails, it is inexcusable.
I will make one point relation to Gareth Maher, because I did propose that he would attend. I did that because he was part of that email chain initially. Second, he actually launched the FAI's safeguarding campaign in 2024. There is a picture of him on the FAI's website launching the association's 2024 safeguarding strategy, so I do believe he has something to bring when it comes to safeguarding.
The ultimate issue here is this debate about concern and complaint. What is going to stand out the most for me is if in the fullness of time, subject to whatever investigation happens and whatever conclusions there are and if the initial concerns expressed in the period in 2023 and the nine- to ten-month period where no action was taken are largely reflected in or similar to whatever was initially alleged via rumour and allegation and that is what actually happened when it came to making the complaint, then people in this room will have serious questions to answer.
I will pick up on one thing Ms Pakes referred to when the Chair was questioning her. It was about the precautionary measure being taken to instigate a stand down order. I think it was the Chair who asked the question. It was said it was a precautionary measure to initiate that stand down measure. Surely, the time to take a precautionary measure is when someone becomes aware of allegations or rumours or insinuations and not when it is actually escalated to a complaint.
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
As I said, it needs to be in line with our policy, and our policy covers children and vulnerable adults. It is concerns outside of a statutory investigation regarding a child or an adult. I would like to say because I am aware this is all about safeguarding, and we have talked about abuse and mentioned sexual abuse, that this is a very triggering subject for people and no one has spoken about it. If anyone is triggered by today, they should reach out to the supports available because we have not mentioned that. We have used some important language here, so I do think this is really important.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They have to be in place, though, and they have to work.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose, though, if we are all being-----
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
Yes, the HSE has a line. We do say it at the start of our safeguarding training that if anyone is triggered by anything they should contact these telephone numbers.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To that Chair, with respect, I would add that when someone becomes aware of a concern, that it should also be escalated and acted upon, even when not necessarily made in the form of a complaint.
I would like to add one last issue, and it is probably more for Dr. May than anybody else. It comes back to the earlier questions from Deputy Malcolm Byrne. I have sat on seven different boards of management for schools. At the end of every meeting, we have safeguarding and anti-bullying concerns. It is a specific block in the meeting. Am I being told that a body of the stature of the FAI does not have a portion of its meetings set aside to reflect on concerns - not complaints, but concerns? I ask this because I genuinely, and I say this to Mr. Cooke and Mr. Keohane in good faith, there are good football people for whom I have the height of respect. When Mr. Cooke is giving straight answers, I know he is being truthful with his responses and that he found out at those times he specified. Surely be to God, though, concerns, very serious concerns of a historical nature, should be alerted to the board far sooner than when it comes to a complaint. I will let the witnesses respond to those points, and if the Chair will give me the indulgence, I will ask one last question afterward.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Very quickly. The Deputy O'Sullivan might ask it now and then let the witnesses respond.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Should concerns be raised at the board before they are escalated to complaints? The witnesses are saying to us today that they only became aware of them when they became complaints.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Historically, did that happen prior to this incident?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So that only happened as a relatively new thing.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fair and honest. That is a good reason. I agree with the Deputy on that. Does he have a quick follow-up question?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to ask generic questions. I have one last generic question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Be quick.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If somebody comes to one of the witnesses as an individual and says they have heard stuff concerning potential historical complaints, I would like to know what the people referred to, particularly concerning the FAI, think that means. I know what I think historical complaints or complaints of a historical nature mean. I know what that means and what it suggests. I would like to know what people here think it suggests.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Who would like to respond? Do we have volunteers?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the question outside of any individual case.
Mr. David Courell:
It is kind of difficult to respond because each and every person would have to judge the scenario, because we are talking in a hypothetical scenario here, on the situation that presents. I cannot prejudge how I would feel or what sentiment I would feel until it actually presented. I am sorry; it is just that the nature of the question is difficult to answer.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Chair, I will just finish. I know what I think when somebody infers there is stuff behind the scenes of a historical nature. We are all grown-ups in the room. We know what that infers.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point is the association should have done it in 2023.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Keohane cannot speak about it, because he was not aware of it to be fair to him.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Keohane and the president did.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The focus today of today's meeting, though, to be fair, has been on 2023. Let us be straight about it.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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While I was very heartened that the witnesses were all going to attend today I am afraid that I have been left a little bit deflated, frustrated and disappointed. While we are talking about words from a thesaurus, I think we have had semantics today about the differences between "concerns", "complaints" and "allegations". The courage it takes to raise a concern of any type is immense. If any young girl or a mother or a sister or whoever it was came to the FAI with a concern that had already been discussed and maybe thought about for six months beforehand, it should be treated very seriously. That is what I would like to find out. Perhaps Ms Pakes can clarify for me and briefly walk me through it. If somebody brings a concern to the FAI, not about a child and not about a vulnerable adult, to do with a person who may be perpetrating some sort of danger, whether it be sexual or bullying, psychological or physical, will Ms Pakes please walk me through the procedure that she would have taken in 2023 to escalate that concern?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Would Ms Pakes talk to the individual who is mentioned in that concern?
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
Not straight away. We try to establish as much information as possible and if it was an adult we would ask them what steps they would like us to take. We try to establish a bit more information about that individual as to where they are, what contact they have, and what is the allegation.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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So, in 2023 the FAI would have spoken to the person who makes or raises the concern - it does not have to be an allegation - would have established as many facts as it could, and perhaps would speak to the person who was at the heart of that concern and who may have carried out something. Yes?
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
Every case is different. It all depends. If it is somebody saying he or she believes this has happened to these people, we would ask whether they were aware that the person was coming to us today and were they aware that the person was raising this. We would ask what information the person has. We try to establish as much-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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If something was established, what is the next step?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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If we have established something and if there is some credence to the concern, what is the next step? What would have happened in 2023 when Ms Pakes was working there if somebody raised that concern and she had established there was a genuine concern? What is the next step?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We are talking about anybody who raises a concern with Ms Pakes as a safeguarding officer.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Report it to whom?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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So there is a very definite paper trail.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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What is the difference now? Was it robust enough then and is Ms Pakes satisfied? What is the difference now that makes it even more robust?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Was there any kind of failing in 2023 that Ms Pakes noticed and that she might have raised at the time?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I think that everyone here in this committee is not interested in a "gotcha" moment. Our primary concern is about the well-being of the players. We found out from the work of good journalism that particular concerns were being expressed. Mr. Keohane outlined what is happening now but our concern really relates to whether the correct approach was taken if concerns were raised in 2023. I totally understand that commentary cannot be made with regard to individual cases. There is this issue, however, and Senator Mullen referred to it, of historical allegations. If somebody comes forward with regard to issues around historical allegations or concerns, in this country we know all too well from other areas outside of soccer precisely what that means. Dr. May will be aware of other national governing bodies that have gone through similar challenges, Swim Ireland being one example. Where we are coming at it, genuinely, is for those who came forward at the time in 2023 and whether the concerns they expressed were taken sufficiently seriously. Senator Comyn is right to point out, and this is where I was trying to get to in the debate, what is a "concern" and what is a "complaint". Being blunt, and we still have to get a lot of the detail on the individual cases, our worry is did the FAI fail those women? That is the question we are trying to get to the bottom of. Ultimately that is what this is all about, and whether as an organisation the FAI should have acted earlier and should have responded more quickly. We have lots of examples with other organisations.
I think I am happy in terms of hearing what the witnesses are saying today, if they want to reiterate it, that this would not happen today if somebody came forward now. I think you are all good people but 2023 is not that far back and I am not fully convinced that the FAI did not fail those women at that time.
Mr. Tony Keohane:
We reacted swiftly once the complaint was made. We reassure the committee, the public, and everybody else that while I am around and while we are around we will react absolutely swiftly if there are any concerns raised about historical or current behaviours.
I just want to make sure that what is referenced to 2023 is about stuff that happened allegedly back in the 1990s. This is just to make sure in case of confusion there. The Deputy can be assured that we will react swiftly and appropriately if allegations come to our attention now. I have already said that it is at the top of our agenda at every board meeting because I am aware, obviously, that we need to develop the trust of the parents, of the coaches and of everybody else right throughout the organisation. We will do that and we will continue to evolve our governance structures to make sure we can do that appropriately and properly.
Mr. David Courell:
May I simply build on that. I appreciate how Deputy Byrne has outlined the question. I also want to reassure. The Deputy kind of alluded to the FAI as having failed the women. I do not want anyone who is listening or observing here today to misunderstand. As soon as we had an approach from the women involved in this, we took swift and decisive action. There is, therefore, a clear distinction on this basis, which cannot be lost in just cloaking this as a "concern". As soon as we had engagement with the PFAI, courtesy of their introduction to the women, it was swift and decisive.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to add to some of the closing comments that have been made by my colleagues. There has been a lot of talk, and rightfully so, about failing the women and how hard it is and how much courage it must take, as Senator Comyn said, for a young woman or any woman to come forward, raise a concern or make a complaint. We need to be mindful that it is not just women. There could potentially be men listening to this conversation today or looking at these reports in the media. Perhaps in his closing comments Mr. Courell can give reassurance to the men. It is predominantly a male game. I am all about the women and the women breaking down barriers but we have to be mindful that there could be men who need reassurance that assistance is there for them, protection is there for them, and support is there for them. I would really appreciate if we could get something on that just before we close. Safeguarding does tend to focus on children and on vulnerable adults, and rightly so, and it particularly focuses on the women. Sometimes we just cast the men aside and say they are big and strong and they can look after themselves, but sometimes they just need that little bit of support as well. I would just like to add that today.
Mr. David Courell:
I thank the Deputy for introducing that very pertinent point.
The point was made earlier about the growth in the women's game, and while it is fantastic that we now have 55,000 women and girls registered and playing football, that still leaves the balance who are men. Our volunteer base is growing in female representation but it is still quite heavily male dominated. It would remiss of us, and I thank the Deputy for mentioning it, not to acknowledge that. It is sad to see and hear that some of the experiences that were introduced to us through the Raiseaconcern process extend to both genders. People need to know that we in the FAI genuinely take these matters seriously. We are contending with a lot of them at the moment but we are encouraged by the fact that people view the administration in a light such that they believe if they bring a complaint forward, we will act on it. We now have the right procedures in place, with the ability to enter into a confidential process. We offer full support, through different services, on a private basis to anybody who engages with our processes to make sure that they have the right framework and support network around them. We want to make sure they can come through the really difficult time of disclosing any issues they may have. I want people to recognise that and believe in us. We genuinely do place a huge emphasis on this space and we will respect the confidence of people and welcome that type of engagement. Our ambition is to make Irish football as safe as possible.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I also want to add some closing words. We live in a patriarchal society. Women experience sexism, discrimination, gender-based violence and sexual violence throughout the world and sport is no different. Sport has a long road to travel to get to a point of gender equality. I am a snooker fan. That is my sport and I follow it more than anything.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sport?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Excuse me? There is €5,000 in prize money for the women's game, compared with €500,000 for the men's. That gives us a stark indicator of how much work has to be done to actually get to a point where women feel equal. From the moment girls enter sport, right through to the point of elite athleticism in all sports, including snooker, we need to see more done. While I am really heartened by some of the witnesses' words, I am not as heartened by the actions. I do not see humility being displayed by the organisation. We have clearly seen through some of the language that has been reported that humility was not there. It is not enough to fall back on process and say people should come forward. The organisation should absolutely live and breathe a culture of equality and accountability to women and girls within its sport.
I want to turn to Sport Ireland now because I have a couple of questions focusing in on governance. Specifically, does Dr. May see merit in funding-eligibility requirements extending beyond the legislative requirements referenced in the opening remarks?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Dr. May mentioned the legislative requirements that apply to funding eligibility. Does she see any value or merit in extending beyond those for governing bodies?
Dr. Úna May:
Okay, I understand what the Deputy is saying there. We have a governance code for sport, which is a voluntary code, and we are constantly reviewing that. We are in the process of a review at the moment, which may or may not extend the requirements on national governing bodies. That is a consultative process that is under way. I have not had a chance to ask Helen to give some input on the good work that is taking place in Sport Ireland in terms of the guidance and the work we are doing in extending beyond the issues of child safeguarding in sport. We are doing a very important project right now looking into safeguarding beyond children. We have identified very comprehensive-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have one specific governance question for my last 30 seconds. I apologise for cutting across Dr. May. In the context of the governance standards that Sport Ireland seeks from the governing bodies, is she aware that in a proposed EGM next week, the FAI plans to propose the extension of term lengths for ordinary board members and the chair. Would that concern Dr. May from a governance perspective?
Dr. Úna May:
We have not been made aware of that and it is a very important question. This was identified in a previous governance review report that was part of the original MOU. The current MOU, which is between the Minister and the FAI although Sport Ireland has a role in monitoring it, contains a requirement that the FAI would continue to adhere to the policies that were introduced in the previous MOU. If this were to emerge, we would expect to be consulted about it and we would advise that it was not consistent with the original recommendations.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody, male or female, young or old, deserves to feel safe on a soccer or GAA pitch or a sports field. Absolutely everybody should feel safe and what we are talking about here, when we boil everything down and without getting into specifics, is the safety and welfare of those participating in sport. The FAI has 225,000 members and 100,000 volunteers. I would not be doing my job right if I was not concerned about some of the things that have happened in the past regarding safeguarding within the FAI. It is really important to note that. I have an opportunity today to be the voice of the members and volunteers today. As I said earlier, I am the father of four girls who all play and love soccer. They are all getting magnificent coaching in Highview Athletic Football Club. I have to stress that about the grassroots, but based on what I have heard today, I still do not have 100% confidence that if there was a safeguarding or child safety issue, it would be dealt with properly and adequately. I do not have that confidence. I know measures have been put in place and I acknowledge that. This is not a gotcha thing or anything like that. I just do not, in my heart, have that feeling.
Ms Kirsten Pakes:
It is disappointing that the Deputy feels that way. I can say that I have a fantastic people in the safeguarding team and the legal team. They are fantastic. We work long hours. We take phone calls out of hours to ensure that we do handle concerns. If I did not believe in what we do, I would not be sitting here today.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms Pakes had her time back, would she do things a little bit differently?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, in terms of when she found out, escalating matters and making the board aware. Would she have done things differently in terms of concerns or actual allegations?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the specific case we spoke about earlier, I am not looking for details on it but if she had her time back, would she do anything differently?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As president, would Mr. Cooke prefer to have known earlier?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know we have to distinguish between an allegation and a concern but I presume the witnesses, as president and as board members, would like to have known of these concerns.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is important. As I said earlier, we cannot change what happened in the past. There is no future in the past, but we cannot have a situation where there is a safeguarding or child welfare concern in the FAI. The witnesses are the custodians of it and despite what many people out there might say, the grassroots of the organisation are absolutely amazing. The witnesses represent them, so there is a lot of responsibility on their shoulders. Hopefully, this Government will last for five years and please God the next time our guests come in here it will not be as challenging a situation as this. What we have seen and heard has not filled me with 100% confidence, unfortunately.
Mr. Tony Keohane:
I am disappointed the Deputy feels like that but I can understand it, given what we have had to talk about. As much as I can, I want to reassure the Deputy that we will stay focused on this and give all of the support that is needed, at board level, to people like Aoife, Kirsten and others in the organisation. I am very taken by the Deputy's comments on the grassroots. One of the things we have discussed recently at our board meetings is a thorough governance review and we will take that further. Dr. May referred to what is in MOU 14 but we intend to go further than that as an organisation. Given our size as an organisation, we need to move at greater speed and be more agile. We need to review and I will certainly remember these comments when we are doing that work.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have some final questions and then I will sum up because there were some specific requests from committee members and so on. We have reached a point where there is a wall that we cannot get past.
Regarding the distinction between the complaints and concerns, the timeline associated with that seems to be January 2024. The situation is that prior to January 2024 we were in the concerns territory and from 2024 on we were in official complaint territory. That seems to be the executive summary of it all. The issue for the committee, given everything that is out there in the public domain, thanks to the diligent work of people I referred to previously, is that there is a genuine concern that in the pre-January 2024 period the organisation was not robust enough or did not, for whatever reasons, which may remain unknown, deal with these issues with the seriousness that was required . That is the summary of where we are at. I think that is fair to say. This is something that we as a committee will have to reflect on. I will sum up in a few minutes how we will deal with that.
Mr. Courell referred earlier - he refused at the beginning but he drifted into it later in our chat - to correspondence. He said there was correspondence. Obviously, it is a complaint from January. Is there any issue that the committee needs to be aware of, as part of this process, that we are not aware of, from January 2024?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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From the time it was an official complaint.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is, on purpose.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That would not necessarily be in a log. I asked for a chronology and timeline. I asked if there is any issue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fine. That is on the record now. I want to ask a question-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We will get to that is in a minute, I am just asking questions. I actually have a note. My final thing is in relation to this issue of raising a concern. I brought up this issue earlier, saying that somebody had contacted me. I do not actually know the person. I do not want to know the person. However, while I have been sitting here, I actually got a message from a member of my staff to read an email. Obviously, I am not going to say the name of the person, but this is actually a male. They said, at 2.14 p.m.:
Alan, I can't believe some of what I'm hearing from the FAI. I have gone to Raiseaconcern but at the next stage of the process, where they wanted me to engage with a company called RSM, I was informed my anonymity could not be guaranteed. Please contact me if you want further information. I would love to put all of this to the FAI because I felt very let down.
So, I will provide those details. I have a fair idea geographically where that is from, given the reference, but that raises a concern for me. The person obviously does not feel that, as somebody volunteering for the FAI, this issue and their concern has been dealt with.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know, but does it not worry you? This is obviously a senior volunteer. I will not explain here how I know that but I would expect that we all know it is from a certain geographical area. I do not know the person. Does it not concern you that this is how they feel about Raiseaconcern?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know, but this has been referred on to-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes.
Ms Aoife Rafferty:
I think they are probably referring to the anonymity with RSM, which is an investigation service. When we moved through the different stages of raising a concern into a formal investigation and as part of that formal investigation there is a challenge around anonymity because of fair due process. Everyone has to be afforded the opportunity to respond to any issues that are raised against them. That is a significant challenge for anyone involved in a formal investigation, because it involves specifics.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I accept that. My issue here is that a number of people now have raised the same issue, because it is obviously from the same location. So there is obviously either an explanation required, or a process issue or a communication issue. I am not aware which it is but it is just falling down somewhere.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that but obviously there is some issue here that people coming through this process are not aware of it, or there is some other issue.
I thank all our witnesses for coming in. I want to sum up on a few issues before we conclude. There was a request from Senator Ní Chuilinn - she referenced Swim Ireland - in relation to how organisations deal with this issue, which we now have colloquially referred to as a concern versus a complaint, and the elevation process and the processing of all of that. It would be great if Sport Ireland could co-ordinate a response to the committee, with a cross-section of organisations. If any committee member wants to refer any organisation, they can do so, otherwise it will be in Sport Ireland's hands as to how other organisations deal with this. I ask that it bring that back to us. I suggest it should be from 1 January 2020 onwards. We do not just want to hear about how they deal with it now. We need to know the situation historically to do a comparison with this scenario. That is the first thing. The second thing is, as I said earlier to Mr. Courell, six requests were made. By the way, we reserve the right to make other requests subsequent to this discussion. I will set a limit of two working weeks on that for documentation. That is pretty normal for us as a committee. Does Mr. Courell want to make an observation in that regard?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Chronology and a timeline.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, just to see if there were any changes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I just want a timeline. A complaint was issued, that was initiated. That is fine. From then to now, what has the FAI done? I do not want any specifics, I just want to know what the FAI has done. I want to make sure that the process that was used there is robust.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Well, there are two weeks, so whatever. Finally, there may have been other requests which have slipped or which I have not taken a note of, but we will write to you, through the clerk, if there is. From our perspective, there were a lot of issues and concern on behalf of the committee in relation to where we ended up today. It is unprecedented. I hope we never have to have this type of engagement in future. I am not talking about today; I am talking about the process by which we got to today. Being honest, in my view, it was not quite good for the FAI to have dealt with the issues in the manner in which it did. I think there are some learnings there for the FAI, corporately. Given the fact that there is a memorandum of understanding with the Department and the Minister, this committee will take an opinion in relation to that and relationships with the FAI into the future. We will be in correspondence with the Minister in relation to that. Outside all of that, we will see how things are going, but we will give enough notice now so that the witnesses know we will review this engagement and possibly ask them to attend again, if necessary, before Christmas or soon after Christmas.
I thank all the witnesses for attending. The business of our public session and engagement for today is now concluded. I propose that we now go into private session to deal with housekeeping matters and correspondence. I thank the witnesses, members of the media and everyone else. I thank everyone for their time, patience and perseverance.